my 12 year old daughter wants to live with me

KALO

Hi. my daughter has lived in the uk with her mum my (xwife) and sister since 2005. she comes over to stay with me in dublin every summer including this summer. she has been really upset as she doesnt want to return to the uk. she misses her family here and ofcourse misses me. i have talked to my exwife about her moving her staying here but she insist i bring her back to the uk.
its all very upseting as it always has been everytime she leaves to go back to the uk but now that shes older she seems more adamant than ever to stay here.
could anyone please advise me as to what rights i would have if i kept her here with me? she told me tonight she will not get on the plane back to the uk i told her mother this and she says she will send her father here to bring her back i f i dont. im at my withsend i just want my daughter to be happy and clearly she is not happy as her mother makes out or all this wouldnt be coming out.

any advice would be really appreciated.

best regards

kalon.

Carawaystick

I'd be very careful, as the english and scottish social workers are fairly ruthless.

If she is an irish citizen, she could get rid of her passport, to restrict the flights she can take. You could probably obstruct her getting a new passport, but I'm sure non-ryanair airlines would allow her travel with an adult.

Then there are bus/ferry alternatives, where a staged air rage incident wouldn't work.

Zambia

Get a solicitor for advice this stuff is fraught with danger and has bankrupted many a male

Pro Hoc Vice

KALO wrote: »

Hi. my daughter has lived in the uk with her mum my (xwife) and sister since 2005. she comes over to stay with me in dublin every summer including this summer. she has been really upset as she doesnt want to return to the uk. she misses her family here and ofcourse misses me. i have talked to my exwife about her moving her staying here but she insist i bring her back to the uk.
its all very upseting as it always has been everytime she leaves to go back to the uk but now that shes older she seems more adamant than ever to stay here.
could anyone please advise me as to what rights i would have if i kept her here with me? she told me tonight she will not get on the plane back to the uk i told her mother this and she says she will send her father here to bring her back i f i dont. im at my withsend i just want my daughter to be happy and clearly she is not happy as her mother makes out or all this wouldnt be coming out.

any advice would be really appreciated.

best regards

kalon.

Get a very very very good legal team.

As an aside I have been thinking of this very issue in the past, in relation to the issue of EU citizenship. Is your daughter a UK citizen, has she lived most of her life in the UK.

This situation is complicated by issues such as which if any court in which jurisdiction are involved in the separation etc..

I have wondered if a competent child invokes their treaty rights of which education is one, to live in another member state, does that trump local law.

You must also remember your daughter I assume visits you for the holidays, (fun time of the year). Maybe an agreement with your ex to reverse the arrangement for 1 year to allow your daughter to see that its not all fun with daddy, and then make up her mind.

angelfire9

Get a solicitor pronto
And put her on the plane home while waiting for legal proceedings to commence
If you are going to argue for her to live with you in Ireland you need to start from a position of strength not weakness
And as your daughter is 12 she is old enough to understand that if you explain to her that she has to go back to the UK until everything is sorted legally

matt-dublin

Also you might want to chat to your daughter about the time she spends here.

She might only think its a better option because she spends the summer here.

IE no school, better weather, lots of activities etc.

Might not be what you want to hear but I think might be more along the lines of what she's really feeling.

On the flip side, is there anything else happening over in the UK that may be causing legitimate concern such as marriage troubles or abusive parents.

Children's this age usually hide more then tell so I think it would be worth a good sit down.

In the short term, put her on the plane home and let her know that it's not as simple just staying here. Tell her not getting on the plane might stop her being able to come back in the longer term.

If you really want to do something about it you should consult a professional legal team as it's probably going to get very nasty with your ex and likely very expensive. If taking the legal route you will need to think about anything your ex may have on you in terms of how your relationship failed, any financial difficulties. Remember as well that the courts may see your ex as being more stable for the child as she is married etc

Dublinmackem

This appears to be a custodial issue, if you've not already, I suggest getting guardianship and then making a custody application, you can do all this without solicitors too, get advice from parenting/ single father groups before solicitors, believe me they are much more informed and helpful, if you do proceed with a custody application I'd suggest a barrister, it would be very difficult if there is no problems with the mother i.e. Not being a fit mother nut the child wanting to stay with you will enhance your chance

Pro Hoc Vice

Dublinmackem wrote: »

This appears to be a custodial issue, if you've not already, I suggest getting guardianship and then making a custody application, you can do all this without solicitors too, get advice from parenting/ single father groups before solicitors, believe me they are much more informed and helpful, if you do proceed with a custody application I'd suggest a barrister, it would be very difficult if there is no problems with the mother i.e. Not being a fit mother nut the child wanting to stay with you will enhance your chance

How will he instruct a barrister without instructing a solicitor?

matt-dublin

that and I would prefer legal advice from a solicitor.

Lbeard

matt-dublin wrote: »

She might only think its a better option because she spends the summer here.

IE no school, better weather, lots of activities etc.

Are you joking? She's 12. She knows this summer was a fluke. And there's never anything to do here.

She just has too much Irish in her blood, and wants to return to her tribal people. The English, civilised, way of life is not for everyone. You can take the girl out of Ireland, but you'll never take the Ireland out of the girl.

No extradition!!!!

Lbeard

matt-dublin wrote: »

that and I would prefer legal advice from a solicitor.

You have to be very careful. Because it's across two different jurisdictions - the average Irish solicitor wouldn't have a clue. It's very messy. Two different courts. And you can't trust the British.

Your daughter could apply for political asylum.

Your best bet would be to calm the situation with your former partner, in the other island. And explain to your daughter, that if she doesn't cooperate with crown, the British will be able to detain her, without trial, until she's 16.

Tanks and guns..come to take away our sons...

Dublinmackem

matt-dublin wrote: »

that and I would prefer legal advice from a solicitor.

You can instruct a barrister directly, I've seen it in the family court, it's alot more expensive though.
also in a court room the barrister pleads a much stronger case than a solicitor, in my expierience anyway, I know alot of guys who have gone through family court and if you want a good case you either use a barrister or the one notorious solicitor in family law, the woman lives in that court,

I've tore strips off solicitors myself personally in the courts, wouldn't hold too much faith in one to be dealing with an overseas case.
I'm sure there is plenty who would do a fine job of it but in my expierience there's some shocking solicitors practicing in family law

Pro Hoc Vice

Dublinmackem wrote: »

You can instruct a barrister directly, I've seen it in the family court, it's alot more expensive though.
also in a court room the barrister pleads a much stronger case than a solicitor, in my expierience anyway, I know alot of guys who have gone through family court and if you want a good case you either use a barrister or the one notorious solicitor in family law, the woman lives in that court,

I've tore strips off solicitors myself personally in the courts, wouldn't hold too much faith in one to be dealing with an overseas case.
I'm sure there is plenty who would do a fine job of it but in my expierience there's some shocking solicitors practicing in family law

http://www.lawlibrary.ie/documents/memberdocs/CodeOfConduct25072011.pdf

See 3.8

Dublinmackem

infosys wrote: »

http://www.lawlibrary.ie/documents/memberdocs/CodeOfConduct25072011.pdf

See 3.8

cheers for that,
Honestly though I know a guy who went in to the court with a barrister, would this have been mal practice so? His boss paid for it, I remember it clearly, costing 200 per hour,

angelfire9

Oh for gods sake for something this important make sure you have a barrister
I don't know the ins and outs as to whether you need to get one thru the solicitor or not but you will NEED a barrister

Pro Hoc Vice

Dublinmackem wrote: »

cheers for that,
Honestly though I know a guy who went in to the court with a barrister, would this have been mal practice so? His boss paid for it, I remember it clearly, costing 200 per hour,

If it was the DC I assume that the barrister was instructed by solicitor, but the solicitor does not need to show. If it was any other court and it was a contentious issue then there may have been a breach of the rules, which could be serious.

Dublinmackem

infosys wrote: »

If it was the DC I assume that the barrister was instructed by solicitor, but the solicitor does not need to show. If it was any other court and it was a contentious issue then there may have been a breach of the rules, which could be serious.

Could explain it, as far as I know the guys boss and barrister were quite pally and wanted to get him out of a situation and it worked.
Not getting off the point though as mentioned just a minute ago the barrister route would be more effective I assume

Pro Hoc Vice

Dublinmackem wrote: »

Could explain it, as far as I know the guys boss and barrister were quite pally and wanted to get him out of a situation and it worked.
Not getting off the point though as mentioned just a minute ago the barrister route would be more effective I assume

Well a solicitor must always be instructed. In the OP's case as it is inter jurisdictional, with serious issues around the Hauge Convention. It would be best to engage a specialist team, if he can not agree an arrangement with his ex. I am assuming they currently have a reasonable relationship as the child is with him in a different country to the mother for the holidays.

In relation to which is better barrister or solicitor or both, well that depends, depends on the court, the type of case the mentality of the professionals and the client. Some very good solicitors out there who practice every day know the judges and what might happen, same for barristers.

Carawaystick

To move to the general.
Can a child Irish citizen, after the "children's referendum" and Lisbon and other EU laws prevent their transfer to another EU state?

Could a(n irish citizen) child intentionally get into contempt of court to prevent deportation?

Also can Eamon Gilmore take into account daft stuff you the day before your 18th birthday in deciding to give you a passport the next day?

Cavehill Red

I doubt recommending specific lawyers is acceptable on boards, but I generally adhere to the notion that law is like medicine. You wouldn't go to your GP if you needed a kidney transplant and nor should you go to your bog standard family solicitor for a transnational custody case. A bit of research should dig out a couple of obvious names in the Irish legal profession with international expertise in family law, including cases that had to be appealed to Europe. That's who the OP needs in his camp.
Of course, we are all ignoring the optimal way of resolving the situation which is sitting down with the child and her mother and having a civilised, non-confrontational discussion about her future in a manner that is practically focused rather than emotionally based.
Easier said than done, of course, but a helluva lot cheaper than going the legal route properly, quicker too.
Full disclosure: I repatriated my child at around a similar age to the OP's child from a country further away than Britain. At one point I was being required to deposit thousands of pounds as a bond with my lawyer as she prepared to advise a foreign legal team and explore appeal routes to the European Court of Human Rights. Thankfully, everyone's mutual concern for my child's well-being prevailed and my child came to live with me as a result of negotiation rather than legal enforcement.

Pro Hoc Vice

Carawaystick wrote: »

To move to the general.
Can a child Irish citizen, after the "children's referendum" and Lisbon and other EU laws prevent their transfer to another EU state?

Could a(n irish citizen) child intentionally get into contempt of court to prevent deportation?

Also can Eamon Gilmore take into account daft stuff you the day before your 18th birthday in deciding to give you a passport the next day?

You bring up a very interesting question. One involving Irish Citizenship, and EU citizenship. It is a question that to the best of my knowledge has not been answered yet.