Why does anyone get upset by the sexuality or gender identity of others?

Foxhound38

Was just reading an article of thejournal.ie about a Jamacan 16 year old who was "beaten, stabbed, shot and run over by a car" by a mob at a street party simply for being transgender.

Truly aweful and depressing story, but also one of the many reported incidences of worldwide violence against LGBT people for no other reason than their LGBT status.

The question I'm asking in this thread, is why you think people let the sexuality or gender identity of other bother them up to and past the point of violence? How and why do people who are different constitute such a threat to people simply by their existance that violence then makes sense in their worldview, however twisted it might be?

Links234

Foxhound38 wrote: »

The question I'm asking in this thread, is why you think people let the sexuality or gender identity of other bother them up to and past the point of violence?

Insecurity.

endacl

Ignorance and insecurity. Add a dollop of irrational rage. Simmer in a mob.

whirlpool

It's not called homo"phobia" for nothing. Like with any phobia, it's an intrinsic fear that homosexuals somehow pose a risk to their wellbeing/survival. Who knows where it originated from, but I'm guessing something to do with religion.

wazky

Waking up to a woman who actually turns out to be a man could be upsetting, id imagine.

shopaholic01

Ignorance and a belief that 'normal' means complying to stereotypical gender roles. Religion and lack of education play a role too.

Femme_Fatale

Dislike and fear of something that's different to what their view of how things should be.

Ilik Urgee

endacl wrote: »

Ignorance and insecurity. Add a dollop of irrational rage. Simmer in a mob.

The world is a saucepan?

Panthro

Some people are just plain oul bananas in the head and will use any excuse to act the dickhead.

whirlpool

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Dislike and fear of something that's different to what their view of how things should be.

Yup.

As other poters have said, insecurity and ignorance are the main reasons.
But in this specific case there's the added factor that Jamaica is one of the most homophobic/transphobic nations on Earth. For a supposedly laid back place they tend to care massively about teh gheys invading their precious island! It's due to cultural attitudes; machismo is a huge deal over there, and a guy wanting to sleep with a guy contravenes that to a huge degree. Let alone a "guy" who's actually a girl/trans person in the wrong body (or vice versa).

Because we're a ****ed up species.

Links234

wazky wrote: »

Waking up to a woman who actually turns out to be a man could be upsetting, id imagine.

ignorance like this is another reason for the hate ^

It's a particularly popular myth that trans people go around "tricking" guys into sex, and one that's quite honestly dangerous. nobody is more keenly aware than transgender women about risks involved in relationships, but the above scenario plays on the concept of 'gay panic', it's a dehumanizing meme that's popularized by the staged antics of Jerry Springer and other media, such as the Crying Game for example.

and is used to justify some truly horrific behavior, the murder rate for transgender women is absurdly high in the developed world.

Vincent Vega

Attacks like this seem to be far more prevalent in societies where religion plays a significant role in shaping the mentality of the public.
Coincidence?

Frosty McSnowballs

I have no problem with the LGBT community. I have friends who are gay etc, to my knowledge I have never met a transgender person. Everyone has the right to be happy.

However, if I state something like "it's not my scene" or if I don't want to know explicit details of my said friends sexual activities.... Somehow I am a bigot, a prude, a homophobic archaic monster and I should be ashamed of myself for not letting the LGBT community express their rights.

Go figure

gcgirl

wazky wrote: »

Waking up to a woman who actually turns out to be a man could be upsetting, id imagine.

Could be said of some of the yokes I've Woke up to but I've hardly reacted with violence

Fr_Dougal

Links234 wrote: »

the murder rate for transgender women is absurdly high in the developed world.

Source?

Links234

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Source?

Just to give you some idea of the rampant hatred against trans people:

http://www.glaad.org/blog/ncavp-report-2012-hate-violence-disproportionately-target-transgender-women-color

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/09/study-one-in-eight-gay-people-and-75-of-trans-people-the-target-of-hate-crime-each-year-in-uk/

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/11/15/1197081/worldwide-transgender-murders-increased-by-20-percent-in-2012/

http://www.tgeu.org/More_than_1100_trans_murders_reported_in_5_years_TGEU_Press_Release

crockholm

Folks are strange.About 17 or so years ago a friend and I were in a different town when he saw 2 fellahs,about our own age,holding hands.His first reaction was to say to me "look,they're queers!,should we beat them up?"

I laughed at his question,and said nothing more.Good thing too,because if you were willing to hold another lad's hand back then in the middle of the day in a mid sized town took courage and an element of tough.

The country is a lot more accepting nowadays,and although I would be uncomfortable around 2 dudes kissing,and tend to avoid the city for the pride fest,I'm happy that people here don't have to go through what that young kid and others like him go through in Jamaica.

whirlpool

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

if I state something like "it's not my scene" or if I don't want to know explicit details of my said friends sexual activities.... Somehow I am a bigot, a prude, a homophobic archaic monster and I should be ashamed of myself for not letting the LGBT community express their rights.

If anybody actually tries to make you feel like that, that's because they are hyper-sensitive. I know a whole lot of gay people for whom it is also "not their scene."

Fr_Dougal

Links234 wrote: »

Just to give you some idea of the rampant hatred against trans people:

http://www.glaad.org/blog/ncavp-report-2012-hate-violence-disproportionately-target-transgender-women-color

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/09/study-one-in-eight-gay-people-and-75-of-trans-people-the-target-of-hate-crime-each-year-in-uk/

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/11/15/1197081/worldwide-transgender-murders-increased-by-20-percent-in-2012/

http://www.tgeu.org/More_than_1100_trans_murders_reported_in_5_years_TGEU_Press_Release

I found this when I searched: http://culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/04/27/one-in-twelve/

1ZRed

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

I have no problem with the LGBT community. I have friends who are gay etc, to my knowledge I have never met a transgender person. Everyone has the right to be happy.

However, if I state something like "it's not my scene" or if I don't want to know explicit details of my said friends sexual activities.... Somehow I am a bigot, a prude, a homophobic archaic monster and I should be ashamed of myself for not letting the LGBT community express their rights.

Go figure

I get what you mean but that is prudish. I don't think it's your fault though, you just grew up thinking all that was sick so you wouldn't want to hear all the details the morning after one of your mates, because it puts you off.

You could sit there and tell me the most in-depth and graphic details of your night with a girl and it wouldn't phase me in the slightest bit, many gay lads I know would be the same.

I don't think you'd be this bad, but I think the men who say they feel sick if they saw two guys kiss to be irrational. It's only kissing and in some cases, sex. What's the big deal?

Foxhound38

whirlpool wrote: »

It's not called homo"phobia" for nothing. Like with any phobia, it's an intrinsic fear that homosexuals somehow pose a risk to their wellbeing/survival. Who knows where it originated from, but I'm guessing something to do with religion.

But surely before it gets to the violence stage, the would-be attacker would at some point ask themselves how precisely homosexuals pose a risk or anything else to their wellbeing and/or survival?

As for the religion argument, hmm - still not buying it. Surely if they believe so fervently in an ultimate and all powerful creator of the universe, they could trust him with enforcing His/Her own laws without interference from mankind attempting to enforce it for Him/Her?

whirlpool

The phobia of / hate against bisexual people is also an issue that disgusts me, and it's rampant among the straight and gay community. Absolutely wrecks my head. Live and let live. Disgusts me more when gay people express bi-phobia. Being part of a discriminated-against minority, gay people should surely be more sensitive to and accepting of differences, in my opinion.

whirlpool

Foxhound38 wrote: »

But surely before it gets to the violence stage, the would-be attacker would at some point ask themselves how precisely homosexuals pose a risk or anything else to their wellbeing and/or survival?

As for the religion argument, hmm - still not buying it. Surely if they believe so fervently in an ultimate and all powerful creator of the universe, they could trust him with enforcing His/Her own laws without interference from mankind attempting to enforce it for Him/Her?

Phobia is based on emotion, not logic. If ONLY logic was brought into it, the world would be a wonderful place.

Clandestine

I personally don't have much if any issues with how people define their gender/sexuality identity, but I've noticed since the internet and popular blogs like tumblr have become popular a lot of people are taking this to an extreme level. Things like otherkin (thinking you are non-human, often a mystical animal creature) and other obviously inane forms of thinking about gender identity/sex are not being treated as they should, and are instead being facilitated by others. This is becoming more obvious in society imo, and kids aren't going to be able to function as well as they should as a result. I worry about that.

Femme_Fatale

1ZRed wrote: »

I get what you mean but that is prudish.

I don't want to hear the intimate details of any friends' or acquaintances' (hetero or gay or bi) sexual escapades though, and I'm not prudish. Some things should just be kept private/personal IMO.

Annasopra

Clandestine wrote: »

I personally don't have much if any issues with how people define their gender/sexuality identity, but I've noticed since the internet and popular blogs like tumblr have become popular a lot of people are taking this to an extreme level. Things like otherkin (thinking you are non-human, often a mystical animal creature) and other obviously inane forms of thinking about gender identity/sex are not being treated as they should, and are instead being facilitated by others. This is becoming more obvious in society imo, and kids aren't going to be able to function as well as they should as a result. I worry about that.

Never heard of otherkin before - just looked it up and I have no idea why on earth you are bringing it into a discussion on sexual orientation and gender identity.

RabbleRouser2k

There is a great documentary called 'For the Bible Tells me So' which looks into that, and yeah, religion does carry a fair bit of the blame for the homophobia, which comes down to bad translation and editing by Kings(One reverend who speaks out against homophobia in the doc, says that it is okay to have a 12 year olds interpretation of the bible, as long as you are 12 years old.), but it actually goes ALOT farther.
Any form of femininity in a guy is seen as completely and utterly wrong, so much so that in institutions like sport, or the army, they common insult towards boys/ men is 'ladies' aka 'Are you ladies ready to work?' or 'I want you ladies to give me 50 push-ups'. To be in anyway effeminate is seen as a complete failure as a male. And this has bled into society, not just those institutions.
If you think about it, how many men teach their son's not to cry, or else they look like a 'girl'? So they bottle up their emotions, which is never a good thing, and don't know how to deal with stress or other issues that arise in life. Which can, in turn, affect one's health. That is just one example, but there many others.
As other's have noted, homophobia and transphobia is an absolute virus in Jamaica. It is not uncommon for someone who is gay to find their house pipe-bombed or similar, in order to get them to leave (which some of them do, sadly). Words like 'Battyman' are regularly thrown at homosexuals and no, I do not agree with any of this. It is horrible, and should not happen.

timthumbni

I will be honest and say I was homophobic when younger simply because of ignorance. Not anything major as to be honest i didnt know anyone gay but just the normal rubbish talking bs with mates etc.

When i started work One of my bosses was gay and we got on like a house on fire. I left my girlfriend and am now happily with reinaldo for 4 years.

The last sentence was in jest but the gay fella is now one of my closest friends and I don't really give a monkeys anymor about this issue. I still wind up my gay friend about his lifestyle but not in a mocking way rather the same way I would take the piss out of my mates.

I think it comes down to the fact that basically humans are just &ricks.

Frosty McSnowballs

1ZRed wrote: »

I get what you mean but that is prudish. I don't think it's your fault though, you just grew up thinking all that was sick so you wouldn't want to hear all the details the morning after one of your mates, because it puts you off.

You could sit there and tell me the most in-depth and graphic details of your night with a girl and it wouldn't phase me in the slightest bit, many gay lads I know would be the same.

I don't think you'd be this bad, but I think the men who say they feel sick if they saw two guys kiss to be irrational. It's only kissing and in some cases, sex. What's the big deal?

Hold on there horse. Lets not get carried away now. Don't assume you know how I grew up or what my sexual boundaries are.

I didn't grow up thinking gay sex is "sick".

When my friend wants to tell me about how him and two other guys spent the night felching and snowballing each other....I just don't need to know about it.

The same way I don't need to know about the details of my heterosexual friends sex lives.

Nothing about being disgusted, I just don't need to know about it.

Clandestine

mango salsa wrote: »

Never heard of otherkin before - just looked it up and I have no idea why on earth you are bringing it into a discussion on sexual orientation and gender identity.

From the stuff i've read people seem to see it as a new form of gender identity... that they are genderless as a result of losing their human qualities. Or something like that, maybe that was a bad example.

1ZRed

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I don't want to hear the intimate details of any friends' or acquaintances' (hetero or gay or bi) sexual escapades though, and I'm not prudish. Some things should just be kept private/personal IMO.

I can see your point and have no problem with that if that's how you are, nothing wrong with it, but the vast majority of my mates would be straight lads, so we're really open about sex and sex stories like most young guys our age would be.
If I was in the pub and listening to one of my mates talk so in-depth about a girl he'd fucked that night yet didn't even want to put up with anything I had to say then I'd tell him to go fuck himself because I'm not going to moderate myself just because he's uncomfortable with it. It's kind of like get over it, it's only sex. It'd be different if I was the same way to his story, but it doesn't phase me at all.

I'm not throwing down on fancy pants and I get his point, but it's a bit irrational if he'd listen to a straight lad tell a similar story yet wouldn't let the gay guy tell his own just because he was uncomfortable with it (if that's the way he is, he mightn't want to here those stories from anyone, similar to yourself). I'd kind of think just get over it if someone thought like that.

Femme_Fatale

1ZRed wrote: »

the vast majority of my mates would be straight lads, so we're really open about sex and sex stories like most young guys our age would be.

I've never liked people having gossiping sessions about people they've ****ed though - really lacking in class, IMO; whether it's women, men, young or more mature.

1ZRed

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Hold on there horse. Lets not get carried away now. Don't assume you know how I grew up or what my sexual boundaries are.

I didn't grow up thinking gay sex is "sick".

When my friend wants to tell me about how him and two other guys spent the night felching and snowballing each other....I just don't need to know about it.

The same way I don't need to know about the details of my heterosexual friends sex lives.

Nothing about being disgusted, I just don't need to know about it.

No problem at all with that then, dude. I mentioned that in the reply to femme fatale that if you were similar I'd understand that no bother. I'm just a bit used to lads who would think that anything goes expect any mention of anything gay because that's way too uncomfortable for them. That double standard can annoy me, but not if you don't want to hear about it gay or straight.

KamiKazeKitten

Clandestine wrote: »

From the stuff i've read people seem to see it as a new form of gender identity... that they are genderless as a result of losing their human qualities. Or something like that, maybe that was a bad example.

I post a lot in a subreddit called tumblrInAction, a lot of the otherkin stuff gets posted there. Tbh it isn't really a sexual identity from what I've seen, not that they are genderless as such but that part of them is wolf/dragon/whatever. Imo otherkin are quite often part of that special snowflake syndrome you see on tumblr (I'm sure some are genuinely feeling part tiger but most...eh. they all seem to try one up each other, I don't think theyre relevant here).

wexie

1ZRed wrote: »

I get what you mean but that is prudish. I don't think it's your fault though, you just grew up thinking all that was sick so you wouldn't want to hear all the details the morning after one of your mates, because it puts you off.

You could sit there and tell me the most in-depth and graphic details of your night with a girl and it wouldn't phase me in the slightest bit, many gay lads I know would be the same.

I don't think you'd be this bad, but I think the men who say they feel sick if they saw two guys kiss to be irrational. It's only kissing and in some cases, sex. What's the big deal?

It'd put me off if one of my hetero friends started telling me in detail about one of his conquests just the same. Not to mention loosing a great deal of respect for that friend. Some things should be and remain between 2 people.

Telling tales like that is disrespectful in so many ways.

So does that make me a prude then?

1ZRed

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I've never liked people having gossiping sessions about people they've ****ed though - really lacking in class, IMO; whether it's women, men, young or more mature.

It's not gossip so much though, it's just having having a laugh and if one of the guys ask how last night went they could tell them.

I think it's unfair to say it's really lacking class, just because it's something you wouldn't do. We're just a pack of lads, we don't care and we're open about it. I don't see anything wrong with it, but I also wouldn't say anything negative about someone who kept it to themselves either, though.

Czarcasm

1ZRed wrote: »

I can see your point and have no problem with that if that's how you are, nothing wrong with it, but the vast majority of my mates would be straight lads, so we're really open about sex and sex stories like most young guys our age would be.
If I was in the pub and listening to one of my mates talk so in-depth about a girl he'd fucked that night yet didn't even want to put up with anything I had to say then I'd tell him to go fuck himself because I'm not going to moderate myself just because he's uncomfortable with it. It's kind of like get over it, it's only sex. It'd be different if I was the same way to his story, but it doesn't phase me at all.

I'm not throwing down on fancy pants and I get his point, but it's a bit irrational if he'd listen to a straight lad tell a similar story yet wouldn't let the gay guy tell his own just because he was uncomfortable with it (if that's the way he is, he mightn't want to here those stories from anyone, similar to yourself). I'd kind of think just get over it if someone thought like that.

Hmm, that justification though is a bit like saying if you walk into a newsagents, you must buy the Irish Independent because you just bought the Irish Times. You may have no interest in the Irish Independent, but in order to appear to the world to be a balanced individual, you must buy something you have no interest in.

Some people just don't give a shìt about something they have no interest in. It may be only a newspaper, but some people don't give a shìt about how they appear to the world either.


On the subject of why people will target those who appear inferior to them, well, that's because they feel superior to them and they like to make sure these people they see as inferior know just how inferior they are.

It may not be right, and it may not be fair, but I'm not too bothered about understanding the mentality of a pack of pricks either, my only concern would be for the person they attacked.

Femme_Fatale

1ZRed wrote: »

I think it's unfair to say it's really lacking class, just because it's something you wouldn't do. We're just a pack of lads, we don't care and we're open about it. I don't see anything wrong with it, but I also wouldn't say anything negative about someone who kept it to themselves either, though.

What about the people they're talking about? If they name names it's totally lacking in class. It's the same when women go on about a fella's performance in bed or the size of his manhood - I just find it horrible.
Sorry for getting "all up on your grill" but I don't think such chat sessions are the norm, even if they feel the norm to some folks.

Frosty McSnowballs

1ZRed wrote: »

No problem at all with that then, dude. I mentioned that in the reply to femme fatale that if you were similar I'd understand that no bother. I'm just a bit used to lads who would think that anything goes expect any mention of anything gay because that's way too uncomfortable for them. That double standard can annoy me, but not if you don't want to hear about it gay or straight.

No hassle man. For the record, iv listened to the stories countless times and even asked questions out of curiosity. Iv shared laughs over them too, some ways he meets lads are funny as fcuk.

I just don't need to know the more "hardcore" stuff he gets up to....likewise when my straight mate got into successfully pulling grannies.

wexie

Links234 wrote: »

Insecurity.

I get it.......but I so don't get it....

As in, I get that people are insecure but for the love of all that is good and holy....why?

What's there to be insecure about? Some people like pussy's and some people like winkies.

Maybe it's just me but I genuinely don't understand how that would make people insecure. I know what I like and I know where my boundaries are (although they're getting vaguer).

Then again I have the worst gaydar ever, one of my friends had to tell me after over a year and made relentless fun of me. I just thought he was very well dressed maybe cause it's just not an issue for me.

shopaholic01

1ZRed wrote: »

It's not gossip so much though, it's just having having a laugh and if one of the guys ask how last night went they could tell them.

I think it's unfair to say it's really lacking class, just because it's something you wouldn't do. We're just a pack of lads, we don't care and we're open about it. I don't see anything wrong with it, but I also wouldn't say anything negative about someone who kept it to themselves either, though.

Redzer, I have to say I would be extremely pissed off to hear a guy I had sex with discuss it with his friends. If I wanted others to know the details I would invite them along.

Karl Stein

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

felching and snowballing

Couldn't stop myself from googling that.

Frosty McSnowballs

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

Couldn't stop myself from googling that.

Heh, well?

wexie

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

....but I don't think such chat sessions are the norm, even if they feel the norm to some folks.

'The norm' seems to have greatly changed though. I wouldn't want to bring age into it however I've been wondering of late what's happened to make it fashionable to compromising pictures of yourself and either send them to people or upload them online.
(I may have stumbled upon some of these in the more picturesque areas of the internet)

When did this become okay to do? When did it become okay to discuss details of your conquests? I've been known to not always be quite so well behaved as I am now but back in my day these things were 'discussed' with a wink, a nudge and a grin. Everybody's dignity was preserved (mostly), there was no photographic evidence of anything and we'd just as much fun.

......<sighs>....I'm getting old....and I worry about my daughters....:mad:

Karl Stein

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Heh, well?

It's a bout quaffing sperm from vaginas and anususususus and cum-swapping by mouth.

eeeeucchh.

shopaholic01

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

It's a bout quaffing sperm from vaginas and anususususus and cum-swapping by mouth.

eeeeucchh.

Sounds delightful.:cool:

Renegade Mechanic

Im not fully ok with the idea of homosexuality or the like but Jesus Christ if one of me mates came out I dont think Id beat him, stab him, shoot him and roll over him in my car :eek:

wexie

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Im not fully ok with the idea of homosexuality or the like but Jesus Christ if one of me mates came out I dont think Id beat him, stab him, shoot him and roll over him in my car :eek:

Why not? If one of your mates came out would he not still be exactly the same mate you know? Nothing will have changed....Chances are he won't fancy you, he already know's you're not gay.

I was really worried once I upset a friend who came out to me cause my response was : 'oh....okay....you want another beer?' I was worried it sounded really uncaring, but the truth was, I don't care, it makes no difference to me whatsoever.

BTW, im glad you wouldn't beat stab or shoot any gay people, it's a good start

1ZRed

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

What about the people they're talking about? If they name names it's totally lacking in class. It's the same when women go on about a fella's performance in bed or the size of his manhood - I just find it horrible.
Sorry for getting "all up on your grill" but I don't think such chat sessions are the norm, even if they feel the norm to some folks.

Nope, no names whatsoever. More funny stuff that might happen or the odd chat of "I was bangin her against the wall, went for hours. Lads next door ****ing lost it". Seriously, that talk is common place with a group of lads.

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

No hassle man. For the record, iv listened to the stories countless times and even asked questions out of curiosity. Iv shared laughs over them too, some ways he meets lads are funny as fcuk.

I just don't need to know the more "hardcore" stuff he gets up to....likewise when my straight mate got into successfully pulling grannies.

That's the stuff I'm talking about. I've a load of funny sex stories myself. Dunno if it came across that way but it's nothing serious to us. It's rarely ever the hardcore stuff, tbh, unless it was in the right context and we were talking seriously I'd have no interest in hearing it and I wouldn't be doing it myself.
That's what I mean.