Irish people and "th"

con1421

Hi guys,
I recently moved to New York and for the first time in my entire life I am not surrounded by Irish people. My workmates are all American and they correct me every time that I try and pronounce certain "th" words (three being the exact same as tree,thunder,third,thrift.....). I really only began to notice that I can't say th's. Is this the case with most Irish people or is it just a Dublin thing? It's beginning to annoy me and its funny that I really only noticed now with the fact that I live in a foreign country. It's as if the th sound doesn't exist in our pronouncation or even possibly in the same way that British people can't or don't pronounce the letter r

I would love to know if anyone else noticed this or if its just a minority of Irish people that can't find the th?

djflawless

Just a habit of where you lived in ireland i guess?
Like some people say "wesht" or "shtick" while others might say "gawd" and "loike"

Dr hoRse

con1421 wrote: »

Hi guys,
I recently moved to New York and for the first time in my entire life I am not surrounded by Irish people. My workmates are all American and they correct me every time that I try and pronounce certain "th" words (three being the exact same as tree,thunder,third,thrift.....). I really only began to notice that I can't say th's. Is this the case with most Irish people or is it just a Dublin thing? It's beginning to annoy me and its funny that I really only noticed now with the fact that I live in a foreign country. It's as if the th sound doesn't exist in our pronouncation or even possibly in the same way that British people can't or don't pronounce the letter r

I would love to know if anyone else noticed this or if its just a minority of Irish people that can't find the th?

First of all, have you lived in a bubble somewhere in Dublin all your life with no contact with any one from outside Dublin?

and to answer the point, as far as I'm aware we don't have the soft th in Irish so it has possibly stemmed from there

WilyCoyote

Just stop saying three. Go from two to four. Problem solved me auld china!

Caiseoipe19

Pat Spillane is a perfect example of this I noticed the last day.

con1421

Dr hoRse wrote: »

First of all, have you lived in a bubble somewhere in Dublin all your life with no contact with any one from outside Dublin?

Where are you from?

sligoface

Yeah it seems normal here but when you go to places were they pronounce words correctly it actually makes you sound a bit stupid (to the locals there). Even my gf who is non Irish but lived here for most of her life talks like that and no amount of correcting her does anything, she just can't do it, when she does she goes way overboard and says it like 'THA-ree'. I don't know why more of an effort is not made in schools to insist on the correct way, especially considering that three and tree are completely different words. Loads of people also do it when the 'th' is in the middle of the word, pronouncing it as a d. And I'm sorry but referring to family members as mudder, fahdder, and brudder, just makes you sound like a child who hasn't learned to speak properly yet. But to be honest I find English people, ironically enough are even worse for bad pronunciation. "Ya wha'?" in particular drives me mental.

wow sierra

con1421 wrote: »

Hi guys,
I recently moved to New York and for the first time in my entire life I am not surrounded by Irish people. My workmates are all American and they correct me every time that I try and pronounce certain "th" words (three being the exact same as tree,thunder,third,thrift.....). I really only began to notice that I can't say th's. Is this the case with most Irish people or is it just a Dublin thing? It's beginning to annoy me and its funny that I really only noticed now with the fact that I live in a foreign country. It's as if the th sound doesn't exist in our pronouncation or even possibly in the same way that British people can't or don't pronounce the letter r

I would love to know if anyone else noticed this or if its just a minority of Irish people that can't find the th?

I'd be annoyed if I had moved to a new country and my workmates continuously corrected how I spoke. I know there's a recession but come the f**k home quick Or at least politely ask your workmates have they ever met anyone from outside New York before and if they always are so rude to new people. They need to get over themselves and you need to treasure you're accent and don't dare change it.

It's just laziness.

Funnier is the people who try to do it properly and end up saying "hyth" for "height".

Timmyctc

Deleted User wrote: »

It's just laziness.

Funnier is the people who try to do it properly and end up saying "hyth" for "height".

Cant stand that. And people who pronounce Tongue THongue. Feckin Galweigans are the worst for that craic.

COYVB

Things you notice when you move abroad:

1) it's easier to pronounce the th in words
2) it's easier to use local words instead of your traditional analog (like using trash/garbage instead of rubbish)
3) it's easier to drop all Irish slang

You can opt not to do any of the three above, but expect to be asked to repeat things over and over again. Sometimes due to amusement, sometimes due to them genuinely not knowing what you say. The "th" thing in particular is one you should get into the swing of very quickly if you don't already pronounce it. I occasionally go to far, th-ing things that aren't th's

Mikeyt086

COYVB wrote: »

Things you notice when you move abroad:

1) it's easier to pronounce the th in words
2) it's easier to use local words instead of your traditional analog (like using trash/garbage instead of rubbish)
3) it's easier to drop all Irish slang

You can opt not to do any of the three above, but expect to be asked to repeat things over and over again. Sometimes due to amusement, sometimes due to them genuinely not knowing what you say. The "th" thing in particular is one you should get into the swing of very quickly if you don't already pronounce it. I occasionally go to far, th-ing things that aren't th's

I don't know about number 3).

I spent a summer in the US and when I kept saying "yoke" (as in, "that yoke") people thought I was talking about eggs.

MoogPoo

djflawless wrote: »

Just a habit of where you lived in ireland i guess?
Like some people say "wesht" or "shtick" while others might say "gawd" and "loike"

dis

COYVB

That's kinda my point though, they have no idea what you're on about

NIMAN

No, its just you Dubs, the rest of us can speak fairly well.

I always wondered why you folk can't pronounce the 'th' - have they not been teaching infants how to pronounce words using phonics? If so, then you ain't listening in some parts of the country!

Seaneh

con1421 wrote: »

Hi guys,
I recently moved to New York and for the first time in my entire life I am not surrounded by Irish people. My workmates are all American and they correct me every time that I try and pronounce certain "th" words (three being the exact same as tree,thunder,third,thrift.....). I really only began to notice that I can't say th's. Is this the case with most Irish people or is it just a Dublin thing? It's beginning to annoy me and its funny that I really only noticed now with the fact that I live in a foreign country. It's as if the th sound doesn't exist in our pronouncation or even possibly in the same way that British people can't or don't pronounce the letter r

I would love to know if anyone else noticed this or if its just a minority of Irish people that can't find the th?

Tell them to **** off next time they correct you.
Useless ***** can't even pronounce Aluminium.

suicide_circus

I have to say I find it irritating, I know it's just the way they learned to speak but I always notice it even though I hear it daily.

"hello dere, dese are my tree favorite types of tree..."

and then when it comes to a word that requires no "th" sound, they are suddenly well able to use it!!

"I had a therrible time a school, de Christian budders thought me tea-ology..."

Karl Stein

Diction Nazis?

Czarcasm

No more grammar and spelling threads, please!

Witcher

Seaneh wrote: »

Tell them to **** off next time they correct you.
Useless ***** can't even pronounce Aluminium.

Exactly what I was going to say:pac:

This also came to mind..next time they correct you say this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyk9RYcCY2A

COYVB

Seaneh wrote: »

Useless ***** can't even pronounce Aluminium.

The word is actually aluminum in north america - they're not pronouncing it wrong, it's a whole different word

MadsL

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Just stop saying three. Go from two to four. Problem solved me auld china!

But three shall be the number...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk

Rubeter

sligoface wrote: »

Yeah it seems normal here but when you go to places were they pronounce words correctly it actually makes you sound a bit stupid (to the locals there). Even my gf who is non Irish but lived here for most of her life talks like that and no amount of correcting her does anything, she just can't do it, when she does she goes way overboard and says it like 'THA-ree'. I don't know why more of an effort is not made in schools to insist on the correct way, especially considering that three and tree are completely different words. Loads of people also do it when the 'th' is in the middle of the word, pronouncing it as a d. And I'm sorry but referring to family members as mudder, fahdder, and brudder, just makes you sound like a child who hasn't learned to speak properly yet. But to be honest I find English people, ironically enough are even worse for bad pronunciation. "Ya wha'?" in particular drives me mental.

There are two "th" sounds, the "th" of three, thing, thought etc and "th" in this, that, them etc the first becomes t the second becomes d, and if it wasn't for regional changes in pronunciation that happen with all languages then (almost) everyone from India to Galway would be speaking the same language identically and with the same accent, there would be no such thing as Hindi, Russian, German, English, Irish...... or any of the variety of Indo-European languages, because it is these changes that gradually create different languages.

How people can consider this quite natural aspect of language as a bad thing is beyond me, really there is no such thing as a proper way to speak as accents vary so wildly across the planet, who is to say which is the correct one. The attitude among some seems to be "My accent is the right one".

There used to be a "th" and "dh"* in Irish eg; the th in Maith (good) in old Irish was pronounced as th in thing (listen here for the sound of Old Irish, taken from this fascinating site) that this sound was lost in the language influences how we speak today just as much of our speech is influenced by that language.
One thing we have that other English speakers have lost is the second person plural, it is great to be able to distinguish between talking to one person using "you" and more than one using "ye" (like French, German and many other languages can) some hate this but it really is an addition to our language that makes it more expressive.
Accents for the win!!!!!

* "Th" as in this.

ArseBurger

sligoface wrote: »

Yeah it seems normal here but when you go to places were they pronounce words correctly it actually makes you sound a bit stupid (to the locals there).

Don't worry. People who can't pronounce their 'th' sound equally stupid in Ireland. There are just more stupid people.

Panthro

OP remind them that English is not your first language, problem solved!

kylith

Foreigners have different accent to me shocker.

SpaceTime

An English friend of mine who speaks very clearly had problems with Americans not understanding her.

For example she asked for the Fitting room in a clothes shop and the response was : we don't have a fishing department.

She also couldn't ever other water! Wah-Tahh causes them to think you're looking for some strange foreign beer.

Its wart-err in the US

Another a London friend of mine got "Im sorry sir. You'll have to speak English. I don't know what your are saying'

He has a strong South London accent.

They all bust out laughing when he says bathroom (barfroom)

You have a barf room in England?? Gee! The food must be bad!

....

The most ignorant thing I ever saw though was two middle aged women from somewhere with very standard accents mocking a Bostonian cafe owner and laughing at everything she said.

She just got really patronising with them.

'That's a cappuccino... You probably haven't seen one before... It's coffee with frothed milk..'

I'm pretty sure it possibly came with free saliva!

HalloweenJack

I generally find Americans to be completely oblivious to the concept of different variations of English. This varies from amusement to aggression (in extreme cases).

I think a lot of this is down to the fact that Americans don't get much exposure to non-American things whereas we get a lot of exposure to American and English things so we're used to hearing people speaking English in different ways with different accents. At best, Americans are familiar with Canadian English and even then they spend a lot of time taking the piss out of them for it.

English people are better at this as there is a lot of variation within England itself and they get a lot of exposure to Scottish, Welsh and ourselves.

OP, you have a different accent, it's fine. Your co-workers sound like complete tools, tbh.

Also, I've never heard any Irish person trying to make a th sound in a place where it doesn't belong, I find it hard to believe that this happens.

tin79

Newsflash: Accents exist!

CruelCoin

con1421 wrote: »

Hi guys,
I recently moved to New York and for the first time in my entire life I am not surrounded by Irish people. My workmates are all American and they correct me every time that I try and pronounce certain "th" words (three being the exact same as tree,thunder,third,thrift.....). I really only began to notice that I can't say th's. Is this the case with most Irish people or is it just a Dublin thing? It's beginning to annoy me and its funny that I really only noticed now with the fact that I live in a foreign country. It's as if the th sound doesn't exist in our pronouncation or even possibly in the same way that British people can't or don't pronounce the letter r

I would love to know if anyone else noticed this or if its just a minority of Irish people that can't find the th?

Ask them by return to kindly stop omitting "u" from certain words, and to replace aluminum with aluminium etc. If they don't speak english properly, why should you?

CrazyRabbit

Tell them you'll pronouce your TH's correctly when they starting spelling correctly. e.g. colour/color, memorise/memorize.

DebDynamite

OP, ask your colleagues to say the word "herb" and then laugh at them when they say "erb".

A Neurotic

One I'll never understand is how inner Dublin people replace 't' with 'r'.

"Ger ourr of ih!"

???

mutley18

How hard is it to pronounce th words? You southerners need elocution lessons. :P

munchkin_utd

DebDynamite wrote: »

OP, ask your colleagues to say they word "herb" and them laugh at them when they say "erb".

and ask them to say words like "lightly" and tell em to f off with their critisims about you when they pronounce that like "lie-dly"

Tornaxx

COYVB wrote: »

The word is actually aluminum in north america - they're not pronouncing it wrong, it's a whole different word

Yeah, it's the complete spelling of the word that they are wrong about!

:pac:

Brego888

The inability for some irish people to say their "th's" bugs me. My girlfriend from kilkenny being a classic example. "Tunder" and lightening or sitting on a "ledder" sofa. Having said that im from donegal some of the stuff I say is weird too.
In summation, I should get over myself.

force eleven

It is ironic that people here can drop the TH from this, that these and those, yet take the words Thomas,or Thomond, and they'll put it in, whereas its correct to drop it for those two. We just cant do what were told here

Crooked Jack

COYVB wrote: »

Things you notice when you move abroad:

1) it's easier to pronounce the th in words
2) it's easier to use local words instead of your traditional analog (like using trash/garbage instead of rubbish)
3) it's easier to drop all Irish slang

You can opt not to do any of the three above, but expect to be asked to repeat things over and over again. Sometimes due to amusement, sometimes due to them genuinely not knowing what you say. The "th" thing in particular is one you should get into the swing of very quickly if you don't already pronounce it. I occasionally go to far, th-ing things that aren't th's

Do you love thits?

Pretty Polly

dis, dat, dese and dose, dats the way the 'th' goes!

Wibbs

HalloweenJack wrote: »

I generally find Americans to be completely oblivious to the concept of different variations of English. This varies from amusement to aggression (in extreme cases).

Well kinda. I had one encounter over the phone with an American and halfway through the convo she said "I love your accent". I replied with "I like yours too"(it was that soft American accent that's hard to pin down. She actually said "but I'm american we don't really have accents". :eek:

American accents vary a lot. A Bostonian doesn't sound like someone from Brooklyn or LA or New Orleans, so I don't buy the "not exposed to different accents" notion. I reckon the coworkers are just being dicks

Also, I've never heard any Irish person trying to make a th sound in a place where it doesn't belong, I find it hard to believe that this happens.

It's very common. Try to find someone, anyone who doesn't say "heith" when they mean "height" Thongue instead of Tongue is common enough too.

Fratton Fred

My sister in law does this on purpose, I'm sure of it. Dis, dat, dese, brudder, tink etc.

She even claims that she taught school was where you are thought tings.

Its just laziness, it's got nothing to do with accents, because she has the exact same accent as her six brothers and sisters who don't do it.

1ZRed

In fairness it annoys the shit out of me too, especially considering the majority of those people who can't pronounce "th", and say things like "shtick", can't even speak Irish, so they've no excuse that they could say "well it's not my first language".

I never understood whenever I saw farmers from the middle of the country on RTE who had such shit English either. All you do is speak English day in, day out, why haven't you grasped the proper pronunciation yet?

looking_around

Yep, In my experience majority of Irish don't pronounce th right. ! As a kid, I was bullied for saying them right! O_O

Lived in Shannon and Limerick most of my life, and the majority of them say tree for three. (one of my pet hates that, ..missing the th on other words don't bother me as much)

who the fug

Throws Z into the mix, runs away laughing like

Esoteric_

I have a few American friends, who are still baffled that I DO pronounce 'th' properly. They used to always ask me to say 'thirty three,' expecting me to say 'turty tree,' and are still sorely disappointed that I speak correctly. :pac:

DebDynamite

force eleven wrote: »

It is ironic that people here can drop the TH from this, that these and those, yet take the words Thomas,or Thomond, and they'll put it in, whereas its correct to drop it for those two. We just cant do what were told here

What are the rules though? How do you know when you're supposed to drop the TH sound from a word beginning with TH?

looking_around

DebDynamite wrote: »

What are the rules though? How do you know when you're supposed to drop the TH sound from a word beginning with TH?

__
actually, I think it's cause the last two are names, and names can get away from general pronunciation rules

Frank Lee Midere

1ZRed wrote: »

In fairness it annoys the shit out of me too, especially considering the majority of those people who can't pronounce "th", and say things like "shtick", can't even speak Irish, so they've no excuse that they could say "well it's not my first language".

I never understood whenever I saw farmers from the middle of the country on RTE who had such shit English either. All you do is speak English day in, day out, why haven't you grasped the proper pronunciation yet?

Dubliners tend to be worse on this.

Surveyor11

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Just stop saying three. Go from two to four. Problem solved me auld china!

Or use another language, like "trois" or "drei"

Frank Lee Midere

It's funny that the OP mentioned New York which is one city which has a non traditional American accent and one where people drop their ths or replace them with a d. At least working class people do. American blacks tend to use the D for th as well. I be rollin, Dey be hating.

It's also unusual for Americans to mention accents, all immigrant cities have tonnes of accents, you could hardly survive by getting annoyed by some of them.