Irish people and "th"

hfallada

It depends on where you are from in Ireland. I am from Dublin and all my friends are really well spoke and would actually correct each others grammar at times. But this I moved to a school with a lot of people from Ballyfermot and I couldn't understand a word for the first 3 months.

In Ireland your English is perfect and proper or no one outside your county can't understand you

Inbox

I hate when people say Arrland instead of Ireland!!

Frank Lee Midere

hfallada wrote: »

It depends on where you are from in Ireland. I am from Dublin and all my friends are really well spoke and would actually correct each others grammar at times. But this I moved to a school with a lot of people from Ballyfermot and I couldn't understand a word for the first 3 months.

In Ireland your English is perfect and proper or no one outside your county can't understand you

I'm not convinced.

Davidius

1ZRed wrote: »

I never understood whenever I saw farmers from the middle of the country on RTE who had such shit English either. All you do is speak English day in, day out, why haven't you grasped the proper pronunciation yet?

Sure people saying things wrong to each other day in, day out is how accents, dialects and languages come to be.

Frank Lee Midere

I agree about accents but tree vs three annoys me too, though I am sure I slip into it. One thing Irish people should do, when in positions of trying to communicate, is enunciate. I enunciate the f*ck when on conference calls to the US. I slow down as well.

beano345

NIMAN wrote: »

No, its just you Dubs, the rest of us can speak fairly well.

I always wondered why you folk can't pronounce the 'th' - have they not been teaching infants how to pronounce words using phonics? If so, then you ain't listening in some parts of the country!

obviously you have'nt been around ireland too much!

1ZRed

Davidius wrote: »

Sure people saying things wrong to each other day in, day out is how accents, dialects and languages come to be.

It's also how horrible accents come to be as well. The Dublin accent being one of them.

It's not difficult to pronounce the words properly and it sounds so much better when you do.

Surveyor11

Ask them to pronounce "aluminium", "Caribbean" and "route". Ask them to explain why they spell the likes of labour, harbour and parlour without the "u". Ask them why they will "write you" rather than "write to you". And their calendars, days and months are reversed. Casues no end of confusion when dealing with American companies.


That'll learn them.:pac:

NTMK

Surveyor11 wrote: »

Ask them to pronounce "aluminium", "Caribbean" and "route". Ask them to explain why they spell the likes of labour, harbour and parlour without the "u". Ask them why they will "write you" rather than "write to you". And their calendars, days and months are reversed. Casues no end of confusion when dealing with American companies.


That'll learn them.:pac:

mentioning the metric system aswell causes them an untold amount confusion.

jimmybeige

Dr hoRse wrote: »

and to answer the point, as far as I'm aware we don't have the soft th in Irish so it has possibly stemmed from there

I don't think that explains it really. People in Connemara, Irish speakers, often pronounce Irish words starting with "T" as "th" i.e The word Tá would be pronounced "Thaw" there.

I think it's just a weird habit we have. My parents pronounce the word three as "tree", but pronounce the word trash as "thrash". Makes no sense.

mike65

NTMK wrote: »

mentioning the metric system aswell causes them an untold amount confusion.

There are just three countries left who are officially not metric - the Unites States of Ameraky, Liberia and Burma (Myanmar). Though metric is used in various US state agencies.

Pedro K

I lived in London for three months in 2011. All I'm going to say is that my pronunciation of 'th' words, coupled with my accent worked a treat!

Joe prim

Surveyor11 wrote: »

Ask them to pronounce "aluminium", "Caribbean" and "route". Ask them to explain why they spell the likes of labour, harbour and parlour without the "u". Ask them why they will "write you" rather than "write to you". And their calendars, days and months are reversed. Casues no end of confusion when dealing with American companies.


That'll learn them.:pac:

Ask them to show you their fanny , just for de craic, or even for some crack, depending on the situation, hilarious high jinks will ensue.

NTMK

mike65 wrote: »

There are just three countries left who are officially not metric - the Unites States of Ameraky, Liberia and Burma (Myanmar). Though metric is used in various US state agencies.

When youre on a list that only includes Burma and Liberia you know you have to change something

and AFAIK arent those US state agencies required to use the metric system due to critical involvement with other countries i.e Fed. Aviation Authority, etc

my rule with americans (family and otherwise) is if they cant pronounce my first name ill be damned if im taking english lessons off them

PizzamanIRL

Tell them to **** off. It's how you speak, end of.

wretcheddomain

Don't forget what happens when you turn 50 in this country, the following changes take place overnight:

Butter --> Buher

Kettle --> Ki-hel

Basically anything with 'tt' in the middle of a word magically morphs into a 'h'.

Not ubiquitous I guess, but common enough in the geriatric world.

elefant

I'm often not understood outside of Ireland when saying words that end with an '-ar' sound.

If I say 'bar', for example, I'm regularly met by blanks looks until I pronounce it as 'bor'. I would say that 'bor' is a more common pronunciation of the word, but for the life of me I can't understand where the '-or' sound comes from the '-ar'.

If they pull you up on things like not pronouncing a 'th' sound to their satisfaction, pull them up on their '-ars'.

(That last sentence looks a bit strange!)

Dyr

mutley18 wrote: »

How hard is it to pronounce th words? You southerners need elocution lessons. :P

From a nordie?

"Thus, Thon, theeyse and thoys, thaats thu wuy thu "TH" gouus"

No tanks

Frank Lee Midere

elefant wrote: »

I'm often not understood outside of Ireland when saying words that end with an '-ar' sound.

If I say 'bar', for example, I'm regularly met by blanks looks until I pronounce it as 'bor'. I would say that 'bor' is a more common pronunciation of the word, but for the life of me I can't understand where the '-or' sound comes from the '-ar'.

If they pull you up on things like not pronouncing a 'th' sound to their satisfaction, pull them up on their '-ars'.

(That last sentence looks a bit strange!)

But I think that our "ars" sound like "ors". And vice versa.

We, by English standards, over pronounce the r. ( Hence the mocking of the Oirish). To my ears the upper class English accent under pronouces the "r", so saying

I am going to Ireland, sounds not too distinct from

I am going to Island. ( Think Prince Philipp).

Frank Lee Midere

Bambi wrote: »

From a nordie?

"Thus, Thon, theeyse and thoys, thaats thu wuy thu "TH" gouus"

No tanks

But the north is the part of IReland where they do pronounce their "th". A donegal friend of mine would fight back when we mocked his colloquialisms by asking us to pronounce 33.

elefant

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

But I think that our "ars" sound like "ors". And vice versa.

We, by English standards, over pronounce the r. ( Hence the mocking of the Oirish). To my ears the upper class English accent under pronouces the "r", so saying

I am going to Ireland, sounds not too distinct from

I am going to Island. ( Think Prince Philipp).

Maybe it's a West of Ireland thing specifically then, but when I say 'card', or 'car' or 'far' it sounds nothing like an 'or' sound- and why should it?

Dyr

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

But the north is the part of IReland where they do pronounce their "th". A donegal friend of mine would fight back when we mocked his colloquialisms by asking us to pronounce 33.

Should of askin him to count to 33

Ush1

Ders more ta Ireland, dan dis!

Osborne

Timmyctc wrote: »

[/B]

Cant stand that. And people who pronounce Tongue THongue. Feckin Galweigans are the worst for that craic.

Or really exaggerating the "th" in Thai and Thomas. Bugs the hell out of me.

wretcheddomain

Ush1 wrote: »

Ders more ta Ireland, dan dis!

Ded roigh!

Frank Lee Midere

elefant wrote: »

Maybe it's a West of Ireland thing specifically then, but when I say 'card', or 'car' or 'far' it sounds nothing like an 'or' sound- and why should it?

The point is you wouldn't hear it yourself. I am not from the West of Ireland, and English people hear me differently than I hear myself.

Degringola

The rule I learned for the non-pronunciation of th was 'Thames, Thomas and thyme'. But when I follow that myself, people look askance at me.

The one that does my head in is 'troath' for throat.

Thighland - as in Thailand - I hate too.

Clareboy

Not pronouncing one's ' ths' properly can cause confusion. A ' thin cat ' is a cat who is not fat, whereas a ' tin cat ' is a cat made of tin!

ghogie91

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Just stop saying three. Go from two to four. Problem solved me auld china!

Or you could hold up three fingers and say 'this many'


........ oh wait

Dravokivich

A Neurotic wrote: »

One I'll never understand is how inner Dublin people replace 't' with 'r'.

"Ger ourr of ih!"

???

Never heard that. If ahen, we forgeh dere dere.

COYVB

Surveyor11 wrote: »

Ask them to pronounce "aluminium", "Caribbean" and "route". Ask them to explain why they spell the likes of labour, harbour and parlour without the "u". Ask them why they will "write you" rather than "write to you". And their calendars, days and months are reversed. Casues no end of confusion when dealing with American companies.


That'll learn them.:pac:

Their dates are logically perfect actually, particularly if you're dealing with filenames on computer. Prime example of this would be documents titled with date first, writing our way of doing it, ie 12-08 would mean that every date is grouped together, so you get 12 12ths together. Their way, 08-12, groups all the entries for a single month together. It's a much easier system for cataloging dates

Cool Mo D

COYVB wrote: »

Their dates are logically perfect actually, particularly if you're dealing with filenames on computer. Prime example of this would be documents titled with date first, writing our way of doing it, ie 12-08 would mean that every date is grouped together, so you get 12 12ths together. Their way, 08-12, groups all the entries for a single month together. It's a much easier system for cataloging dates

Except they write the dates 04-22-2012, so it will still end up arseways on the computer. If you want things to be in the right order, you would have to write 2012-04-22, which no-one naturally does.

HalloweenJack

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Also, I've never heard any Irish person trying to make a th sound in a place where it doesn't belong, I find it hard to believe that this happens.

You should watch RTE news, a few of the reporters do it fairly regularly and eyewitnesses trying to speak properly sometimes give it a blast too.

robinph

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Also, I've never heard any Irish person trying to make a th sound in a place where it doesn't belong, I find it hard to believe that this happens.

Plenty of times I see words written with h where they shouldn't giving talk of threadmills in the athletics forum and people talking about being thought things at school.

Have definitely heard both of those spoken wrong as well as written wrong, and there must be more examples I can't think of right now.

I am pie

Deleted User wrote: »

You should watch RTE news, a few of the reporters do it fairly regularly and eyewitnesses trying to speak properly sometimes give it a blast too.

Yep, have heard one particular eejit on the radio talking about thighland and some interesting pronunciations of the name Thompson. Sounded like someone with a lisp sucking on a gobstopper.

COYVB

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Except they write the dates 04-22-2012, so it will still end up arseways on the computer. If you want things to be in the right order, you would have to write 2012-04-22, which no-one naturally does.

If you're only handling a year's worth of stuff at a time, it works just fine though. For multiple years, yes it groups them per month, then per year, but it's still a lot better than our system even at that

Marcusm

con1421 wrote: »

Hi guys,
I recently moved to New York and for the first time in my entire life I am not surrounded by Irish people. My workmates are all American and they correct me every time that I try and pronounce certain "th" words (three being the exact same as tree,thunder,third,thrift.....). I really only began to notice that I can't say th's. Is this the case with most Irish people or is it just a Dublin thing? It's beginning to annoy me and its funny that I really only noticed now with the fact that I live in a foreign country. It's as if the th sound doesn't exist in our pronouncation or even possibly in the same way that British people can't or don't pronounce the letter r

I would love to know if anyone else noticed this or if its just a minority of Irish people that can't find the th?

Kevin

Is this you? We've been taking the piss out of you for years on this - Thhhhhomas and Judittttt

Pronouncing the "h" where it's silent and abandoning it when it's to be used.

(Kevin is a former colleauge of mine who has recently moved to New York.)

spank_inferno

All I know is, you Irish love watching your "fillums on de telly"!

A Neurotic

I am pie wrote: »

Yep, have heard one particular eejit on the radio talking about thighland and some interesting pronunciations of the name Thompson. Sounded like someone with a lisp sucking on a gobstopper.

Marcusm wrote: »

Kevin

Is this you? We've been taking the piss out of you for years on this - Thhhhhomas and Judittttt

Pronouncing the "h" where it's silent and abandoning it when it's to be used.

(Kevin is a former colleauge of mine who has recently moved to New York.)

What's wrong with pronouncing the "th" in Thailand and Thomas? Correct pronunciation surely?

Cody Pomeray

It's not a regional dialect issue in my experience.

Many Irish people who think they are pronouncing 'thrift', 'thunder', 'threw' etc. correctly are doing so in a way that would still sound wrong to English speaking foreigners. They may not be pronouncing it with a hard -t but they're still not pronouncing it like other English speakers.

I do it wrong myself. It feels wrong to make those sounds, I just don't.

I am pie

A Neurotic wrote: »

What's wrong with pronouncing the "th" in Thailand and Thomas? Correct pronunciation surely?

No, it isn't the correct pronunciation. You would be in a small minority not aware that in those cases that h is silent. I imagine in Irish the H would signify a different pronunciation but in English those proper nouns have silent h's. To me it is wilful ignorance to mispronounce Thailand as thighland, a kind of colloquial stubborness. The same with the names of Thomas or Thompson or the River Thames.

rm234

Was at a houseparty in London recently and for the entire day/night was getting the p*** ripped out of me for the "th's", then this nice Jamaican girl told me Jamaicans do the exact same thing! She went on about similarities between the two. Point of this is, if you go somewhere (9/10) bigger country that speaks English and considers your English to be incomprehensible, think of ALL those other immigrants who arrived without a word. Brush it off, and keep your accent, for every d**khead you meet there will ALWAYS be a nice girl that'll arrive soon after totally intrigued by your accent.

rosie16

I was in france a month ago working with a scot and she got a great laugh over the fact that I couldn't pronounce 'th'. I never noticed before. I'm from cork btw.

A Neurotic

I am pie wrote: »

No, it isn't the correct pronunciation. You would be in a small minority not aware that in those cases that h is silent. I imagine in Irish the H would signify a different pronunciation but in English those proper nouns have silent h's. To me it is wilful ignorance to mispronounce Thailand as thighland, a kind of colloquial stubborness. The same with the names of Thomas or Thompson or the River Thames.

Seems like a fairly understandable assumption, for someone who's never been to Thailand, to pronounce the 'th' as it's spelled.

My mind is being blown here. Always try to speak correctly, never had a notion that there was a silent 'h' in those. Googled it and found this, funnily enough.

SpaceTime

I wouldn't really worry about it.

English people in particular are obsessed with mocking people about their accents. It's part of the class system hang-over and parochialism. Ireland's got a bit of it too, but I think it's not quite as vicious.

A friend of mine from the North of England used to get ripped apart in an office in London to the point that she'd actually be in tears.

Every morning "Ay up chuck!" in a chorus from the whole office.
They also used to make her say things like "upper" just so they could laugh at her.

They used to say stuff like "Ay chuck.. could you put Kettle on for nice brew?"

and stuff like "is you mum Nora Batty then? init?"

In the a HR person spotted it and gave written warnings to those involved. It was taken very seriously as a bullying issue.

Also, Londoners have extremely strong accents in many cases and can be totally unintelligible to Americans where as clear Irish accents tend not to be a problem. This is largely because English people tend to do strange things with H, R and lots of other sounds and use a lot of elision (slipping one word into the next)

Wacker The Attacker

Dr hoRse wrote: »

First of all, have you lived in a bubble somewhere in Dublin all your life with no contact with any one from outside Dublin?

and to answer the point, as far as I'm aware we don't have the soft th in Irish so it has possibly stemmed from there

I think we can safely assume that in the majority of cases it doesn't come from speaking irish

spank_inferno

rosie16 wrote: »

I was in france a month ago working with a scot and she got a great laugh over the fact that I couldn't pronounce 'th'. I never noticed before. I'm from cork btw.

Cork people tend to throw in the word "like", often multiple times into their sentences.

Corcaigh84

It wrecks my head, especially hearing public representatives on TV who can't pronounce their th's.

They sound uneducated, or like Bertie Ahern.

P. Breathnach

jimmybeige wrote: »

I don't think that explains it really. People in Connemara, Irish speakers, often pronounce Irish words starting with "T" as "th" i.e The word Tá would be pronounced "Thaw" there.

I think it's just a weird habit we have. My parents pronounce the word three as "tree", but pronounce the word trash as "thrash". Makes no sense.

There is some sense in it - or, if you prefer, an explanation for it.

In Irish, the general pronunciation pattern is that "t" followed by a broad vowel (a, o, u) is pronounced something like the English "th"; when it is followed by a slender vowel (i, e) it is more like the English "t". It makes no difference if there is another consonant in between, as in your example "trash".

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Don't forget what happens when you turn 50 in this country, the following changes take place overnight:

Butter --> Buher

Kettle --> Ki-hel

Basically anything with 'tt' in the middle of a word magically morphs into a 'h'.

Not ubiquitous I guess, but common enough in the geriatric world.

So one becomes a geriatric at 50?

The speech feature you describe is known as a glottal stop (maybe a glo-al stop). It's also found in some English dialects.

It seems to me that the glottal stop is found more commonly in Dublin than in other parts of Ireland. I suspect the reason why you have noticed it more among older people has nothing to do with things changing as they become older, but is due to their having had less exposure when young to British and American influences via television.

Surveyor11

SpaceTime wrote: »

Also, Londoners have extremely strong accents in many cases and can be totally unintelligible to Americans where as clear Irish accents tend not to be a problem. This is largely because English people tend to do strange things with H, R and lots of other sounds and use a lot of elision (slipping one word into the next)

I used to have the p!ss taken out of me as well when I lived in London for 5 years, guys in the office found it funny how I would pronounce the number three. What's ironic with the London accident (in the main) is that they would pronounce 'three' as 'free'.

was the same when I lived in rural Shropshire for a while, people found my accident strange, both in pronunciation and turn of phrase. If anyone's been to Shropshire, they have a who phraseology and diction all of their own. Not that I mind, but it's like everywhere -we all speak differently.