Is it even worth having a successful business in Ireland?

oneshot2shots

I have been thinking of setting up an online web design company. I realise that it will take at least a year to rank for the keywords to get on page 1. I don't want to go freelance as there is a misguided stigma about freelance webdesigners among businesses and they believe that a company who charges 2500 is superior than one who charges 600(probably so but not by the price difference). When my masters is finished in december I can work by day and work on the business by night so in a year or more it(and me) would be ready for business.

The problem is the business itself. As i have to set it up as a company or business I am wondering what the profit margins will be like and can't seem to wrap my head around how much I have to pay exactly. If I charged a client 800 euro, I would then have to take into account VAT at 23%, corporation tax at 12.5% and then when paying myself a dividend this "profit" would be personally taxed?? The idea of essentially working for those fools in the dail angers me.I'm trying to envisage it with the end in mind but at the moment I'm thinking of leaving it a few years - At which point I'll no doubt regret not growing the business the last few years

Do any business owners have any advice on what is the most favourable setup??

Graham

I don't think I could even begin to counter so many negative sentiments.

kippy

Online web design company - not a saturated market at all at all.

In fairness, you'd need a very good unique selling point to have any chance of actually worrying about those kind of things that you are currently worried about.

Setup as a sole trader, dont register for VAT until your hitting 50g's of income. Write off as many costs as you can legally, and then pay your income tax which is probably going to be the lower bracket for a while off the remaining figure.

I would say if your skills are good enough and are reflected in your portfolio, and you hit 100 people a day to sell your service, you will get enough business eventually. SEO and keywords is no substitute for a salesperson. Business would be wonderfully easy for all if thats all it took to get some customers.

Peterdalkey

You have lots of attitude, shag all experience... You are still a student apparently.. On the downside, you still need to figure out what it is you have to offer that is not already well catered for by experienced professionals. Hint: check out the queue outside your door!

Zascar

Very solid advice from El Rifle

Axwell

Start building a portfolio now - you have no reason not to be doing a few sites while you finish college seen as you were saying you were going to run the business by night anyways. Register a business name now, get a site up and start building a portfolio. Even if you just do mockups to start with and then try get some sites from local businesses and maybe do them at a cheaper rate starting off.

Come the end of your masters you will either find you have got little or no clients at all and its not the thing for you, in which case nothing lost and you can still go for that 9-5 job. Or you will have a few clients and a bit of a portfolio which you can then try build on by getting more work in and maybe putting more time into it.

GabbyJay

oneshot2shots wrote: »

I have been thinking of setting up an online web design company. I realise that it will take at least a year to rank for the keywords to get on page 1. I don't want to go freelance as there is a misguided stigma about freelance webdesigners among businesses and they believe that a company who charges 2500 is superior than one who charges 600(probably so but not by the price difference). When my masters is finished in december I can work by day and work on the business by night so in a year or more it(and me) would be ready for business.

The problem is the business itself. As i have to set it up as a company or business I am wondering what the profit margins will be like and can't seem to wrap my head around how much I have to pay exactly. If I charged a client 800 euro, I would then have to take into account VAT at 23%, corporation tax at 12.5% and then when paying myself a dividend this "profit" would be personally taxed?? The idea of essentially working for those fools in the dail angers me.I'm trying to envisage it with the end in mind but at the moment I'm thinking of leaving it a few years - At which point I'll no doubt regret not growing the business the last few years

Do any business owners have any advice on what is the most favourable setup??

VAT at 23% is added to the invoice on top of the cost of your services and returned to the client afterwards, so it's not really spending. Corporate tax only applies on the profit, and with a tech startup you might be eligible for a tax exemption for a few years on profits -> 0% corporate tax.

So to answer your question - is it worth having a successful business in Ireland? Of course it is! It's one of the best companies in the world to have a successful business in due to the famously low corporate tax rate and incentives. You're absolutely not paying for drinks behind the Dail bar, on the contrary, Ireland takes very little from its successful companies.

Whether or not you would be able to make this business successful or not - that's an entirely different kettle of fish. Do you have more information about the type of work that you intend to do?

LukeQuietus

A web designer you may be but an SEO expert you are not. Keywords are a thing of the past. If you want to get into page one (in a highly competitive area like webdesign where your SEO is going up against some of the best around) you'd want to start working on that now.

Beyond that, I agree with the other comments about doing sites for people now. A year ago I was all geared up to set up my own design company. Then I started meeting clients and I realised it wasn't gonna happen.

In order, you'll face these problems when starting out:
1. They'll be all go go go until you metion money and then they disappear off the face of the earth. And this is after you've already spent two weeks contacting them and meeting them and wasting you're own time trying to get the job.
2. You'll take on anything just to get some work and a bit of rep / build a portfolio. Problem is you'll end up selling your services for too low a price and taking on clients who are problemattic. Clients who hire people on how much they charge and don't care about a portfolio are 80% problem clients who'll drain your will to live and/or do web design.
3. They won't give you the materials you need to finish the job. Like text and images. They seem to thing once you go off and get started you'll magically learn everything there is to know about THEIR business and write all the content for them.
4. They'll never appreciate what it takes to make a website. They'll talk about it as if it's drawing pictures and just typing words in boxes. Expect no real appreciation that it takes a broad range of skills from design, color theory, typography and knowloedge of complex program suites and IDEs to knowing a minimum of three languages like HTML, CSSS, Javascript/jQuery on through PHP, MySQL, MongoDB, NodeJS, .NET, Ruby etc. They just don't care. But we have to care about their business a whole bunch to do our job for them.

If you don't mind all that (and trust me it will ALL happen at least once) then I wish you the best of luck.

ht9zni1gs28crp

Do the first few for free providing they are for a highly visual company. Your portfolio is off and running.

I set up my own business in my spare time. I worked all hours in the evening and weekends and still maintained a normal job. After a while I went to a four day week. Once there was enough in the bank to cover 6 months min wages and enough of a model to prove it was sustainable I jumped in full time. Havent looked back since!

LukeQuietus

Peyton Black Word wrote: »

Do the first few for free providing they are for a highly visual company. Your portfolio is off and running.

I set up my own business in my spare time. I worked all hours in the evening and weekends and still maintained a normal job. After a while I went to a four day week. Once there was enough in the bank to cover 6 months min wages and enough of a model to prove it was sustainable I jumped in full time. Havent looked back since!

DO NOT DO THE FIRST FEW FOR FREE!!! That's dreadful advice. Like I said, clients who look for a designer / developer on how much they charge are going to be useless for future business. They'll never be happy and they'll never give you future refferals, which web design companies rely on.

ht9zni1gs28crp

LukeQuietus wrote: »

DO NOT DO THE FIRST FEW FOR FREE!!! That's dreadful advice. Like I said, clients who look for a designer / developer on how much they charge are going to be useless for future business. They'll never be happy and they'll never give you future refferals, which web design companies rely on.

Okay then, what's your suggestion to provide an impact that tells clients to choose you as a fish in an already overloaded shoal? Why should a company take a risk on someone charging similar to competitors with a track record?

smash

Peyton Black Word wrote: »

Okay then, what's your suggestion to provide an impact that tells clients to choose you as a fish in an already overloaded shoal? Why should a company take a risk on someone charging similar to competitors with a track record?

How about to not leave college and set up a web design company... go and work, get real world experience and build up your portfolio and contacts!

kkelliher

There is nothing more rewarding than getting up every day and working hard to get your own entity out there and making money for yourself. Irrespective of what country you are in it is always going to be worth your while to have success.

Cianos

Peyton Black Word wrote: »

Okay then, what's your suggestion to provide an impact that tells clients to choose you as a fish in an already overloaded shoal? Why should a company take a risk on someone charging similar to competitors with a track record?

Word of mouth, building a connection and personal referrals is much more important than aligning yourself with your competitors and succumbing to being 'just another fish'.

The average company doesn't want to go trawling through tonnes of portfolio websites - there's too much to consider and too little between each candidate for them to be confident they're making the correct choice.

The majority of the time they'll ask around for a recommendation, or check who designed their competitor's website, or pretty much the first person they encounter via a personal connection who 'does websites' will get the job

That's why it's important to look after your clients. Work on the connections you do have and go from there. It'll be a very slow start but if you're good you'll build up a decent portfolio that will result in future referrals.

And don't undersell yourself. In many ways people are more comfortable spending money on something than getting it for free, because that way you are committed to doing the job and doing it right. If you do it for free they can't ask you what's taking so long, or ask you to revise x, y and z. They expect a standard and they're willing to pay for that standard.

Let them see that they're getting value for money and they'll sing your praises.

LukeQuietus

Family and friends are usually the first few clients you'll get. They'll refer you on to others once your work is good. You might do them cheap (like a family / friend rate) but the trade off is that they'll spread the word. From there you'll have a portfolio and you can start charging a proper fee. Besides, a website isn't a one off thing. Once someone gets a website done by you they'll be back anytime they need some new feature or when they've messed something up. It's transactional vs. relational clientele. You want relational business which is built on familiarity and trust, not reveolving around price and only price. When someone mons about the price you just clearly explain the whole process so they understand it. If they still think it's too high you can negotiate but you should be looking out for the red flags. Sometimes it's easier to just point them to a cheaper company and wish them luck.

anbrutog

It most certainly is worth having a business in Ireland.

But you have to remember you're in the marketing business first , and whatever it is your business produces second (which is in your case web design)

Remember people ain't interested in buying a web site. They dont give a damn whether its made with PHP, Wordpress , HTML or whether you put it together with paper mache and sticky tape.

They're interested in what a web site will do for them ( get them more leads ,more customers , less hassle, more money, save time ..whatever )

With that, here's what I would do...

• Learn direct response marketing before anything else ( stay away from anything to do brand or image advertising, its garbage ). Learn how to write compelling copy.
• Hone your USP.
• Drive traffic to an opt-in page using Adwords/Facebook ads. Forget about SEO, its too much of a black box these days and that's something that will only get worse with time as the Big G becomes ever more capricious. Besides, competition for web design keywords is ridiculous. As a previous poster said you're up against the best of the best.
• Build a list
• Work your list by emailing them regularly , at least 3 times a week. Personally I'd go for 5 times.
• Get customers.

It doesn't matter how good your work is or isn't. You could have the best portfolio in the world but if nobody knows about it, you ain't going to make any money.

If you don't have sales funnels in place that bring you a steady stream of leads, you're out of business.
If you don't know marketing , you will go broke unless you get lucky with a constant stream of referrals.
This can happen, don't get me wrong, but odds are it won't.

Best of luck with it all.

bbam

Nobody has mentioned capital. If
Your just coming out of college have you funds available to get it off the ground?

anbrutog

bbam wrote: »

Nobody has mentioned capital. If
Your just coming out of college have you funds available to get it off the ground?

For a web design business , you would arguably need very little.

You could start it from your home with a few google adwords vouchers in theory. Its not a normal bricks and mortar business where you would potentially need to hire staff , have overheads like rent,electricity etc...

Don't get me wrong , you will need some money but it could easily be done on a shoestring.

businessdit

anbrutog wrote: »

[*]Work your list by emailing them regularly , at least 3 times a week. Personally I'd go for 5 times.

With respect, I hope you are kidding...

anbrutog

businessdit wrote: »

With respect, I hope you are kidding...

Nope. Why would I be?

businessdit

anbrutog wrote: »

Nope. Why would I be?

Well if someone (a business) sent you mail 5 times per week would you like that?

1) At this frequency quality of the information in the mail is probably going to be very poor.
2) The recipients become immune to getting the mails so never open them.
3) At this frequency these mails will be unwanted mails. There is more than a whiff of spamming here, and this will only lead to unsubscribes.

anbrutog

businessdit wrote: »

Well if someone (a business) sent you mail 5 times per week would you like that?

I'm subscribed to many lists , all of which email me AT LEAST 5 times a week.
And I love getting emails from them.

Why?

Well...they get my attention because what they have to say is humourous, witty, intelligent, engaging , interesting, educational and relevant.
Yes , they are selling me their wares , but because they provide value in other ways, they get opened and read.

businessdit wrote: »

1) At this frequency quality of the information in the mail is probably going to be very poor.

Nonsense. If you've a vivid enough imagination , there's no end of interesting things to email about.

businessdit wrote: »

2) The recipients become immune to getting the mails so never open them.

Again , not true. There will always be a section of your list who will never open your emails for whatever reason , but if you've positioned your self correctly and have taken the time to develop a solid relationship with them, enough of them will open your emails. For my own list, if I go on holiday or for whatver reason I dont email for a while, I regularly get emails asking is there anything with me, am I okay etc.. They've come to expect my emails every day and they enjoy them and get value from them. They most definitely aren't immune to what Ive got to say..

businessdit wrote: »

2) At this frequency these mails will be unwanted mails. There is more than a whiff of spamming here, and this will only lead to unsubscribes

No they're not. Everyone who signs up to my list does so at their own volition. No one is forced or coerced into doing so. I'm ultra clear as to what they are getting into, how many emails they're going to get, what I talk about, how I sometimes use bad language, how I do this and how I do that. No one is lied to. Everyone knows the score.

On that basis, it isn't spam, because its very clear from the outset whats going on.

If they're dumb enough to moan about it after the fact ( and yes , I do get the odd fool who is too stupid to read what they should expect from me when they first sign up ), then that is their problem, not mine.

The trick to emailing regularly is to inject some of your personality into what you say.
If you email every day sounding like a boring corporate drone, yes people will most definitely unsubscribe.

But if you talk to your list on a person to person basis like you would a mate down the pub, believe me something entirely different happens.

businessdit

anbrutog wrote: »

I'm subscribed to many lists , all of which email me AT LEAST 5 times a week.
And I love getting emails from them.

Why?

Well...they get my attention because what they have to say is humourous, witty, intelligent, engaging , interesting, educational and relevant.
Yes , they are selling me their wares , but because they provide value in other ways, they get opened and read.



Nonsense. If you've a vivid enough imagination , there's no end of interesting things to email about.


Again , not true. There will always be a section of your list who will never open your emails for whatever reason , but if you've positioned your self correctly and have taken the time to develop a solid relationship with them, enough of them will open your emails. For my own list, if I go on holiday or for whatver reason I dont email for a while, I regularly get emails asking is there anything with me, am I okay etc.. They've come to expect my emails every day and they enjoy them and get value from them. They most definitely aren't immune to what Ive got to say..



No they're not. Everyone who signs up to my list does so at their own volition. No one is forced or coerced into doing so. I'm ultra clear as to what they are getting into, how many emails they're going to get, what I talk about, how I sometimes use bad language, how I do this and how I do that. No one is lied to. Everyone knows the score.

On that basis, it isn't spam, because its very clear from the outset whats going on.

If they're dumb enough to moan about it after the fact ( and yes , I do get the odd fool who is too stupid to read what they should expect from me when they first sign up ), then that is their problem, not mine.

The trick to emailing regularly is to inject some of your personality into what you say.
If you email every day sounding like a boring corporate drone, yes people will most definitely unsubscribe.

But if you talk to your list on a person to person basis like you would a mate down the pub, believe me something entirely different happens.

Hey thanks for your input, you make a good argument.

I personally find it very hard to understand how a SMB owner would have enough time to create 5+ emails per week of the quality you are talking about...

Some pretty AMAZING content would have to be developed. Meaning someone would have to be working full time in the background to develop this content... Its not practical for a small biz owner to spend the day thinking up content for a daily newsletter only for it to be sent out to a small list of subscribers.

Tell you what... Add me to your mailing list and lets see if you practice what you preach. You can most certainly talk the talk about this topic (and I respect that) , but can you walk the walk..?

Where do I sign up?

anbrutog

businessdit wrote: »

Hey thanks for your input, you make a good argument.

I personally find it very hard to understand how a SMB owner would have enough time to create 5+ emails per week of the quality you are talking about...

Some pretty AMAZING content would have to be developed. Meaning someone would have to be working full time in the background to develop this content... Its not practical for a small biz owner to spend the day thinking up content for a daily newsletter only for it to be sent out to a small list of subscribers.

Tell you what... Add me to your mailing list and lets see if you practice what you preach. You can most certainly talk the talk about this topic (and I respect that) , but can you walk the walk..?

Where do I sign up?

Ill send you a PM...

beauf

Also curious can I sign up to.

anbrutog

beauf wrote: »

Also curious can I sign up to.

No worries. If anyone wants be added , send me a PM.

anbrutog

businessdit wrote: »

Hey thanks for your input, you make a good argument.

I personally find it very hard to understand how a SMB owner would have enough time to create 5+ emails per week of the quality you are talking about...

Some pretty AMAZING content would have to be developed. Meaning someone would have to be working full time in the background to develop this content... Its not practical for a small biz owner to spend the day thinking up content for a daily newsletter only for it to be sent out to a small list of subscribers.

Tell you what... Add me to your mailing list and lets see if you practice what you preach. You can most certainly talk the talk about this topic (and I respect that) , but can you walk the walk..?

Where do I sign up?

Yeah I totally understand where you're coming from , and being honest until I saw how to do myself I would have skeptical.

In terms of time, well its like anything once you get good at it, when you gain a certain amount of competence you can knock out emails in a matter of minutes.

Make no mistake , its hard work at the beginning , especially if you've no writing experience, but its easier the more you do it.

gargargar

businessdit wrote: »

Hey thanks for your input, you make a good argument.

I personally find it very hard to understand how a SMB owner would have enough time to create 5+ emails per week of the quality you are talking about...

Some pretty AMAZING content would have to be developed. Meaning someone would have to be working full time in the background to develop this content... Its not practical for a small biz owner to spend the day thinking up content for a daily newsletter only for it to be sent out to a small list of subscribers.

Tell you what... Add me to your mailing list and lets see if you practice what you preach. You can most certainly talk the talk about this topic (and I respect that) , but can you walk the walk..?

Where do I sign up?

No businessdit, you were right the first time. This is terrible advice.

I can't think of any SME that I would be happy to receive a mail every day from. From a news site yes, but some design company or courier, no way.

anbrutog

gargargar wrote: »

No businessdit, you were right the first time. This is terrible advice.

I can't think of any SME that I would be happy to receive a mail every day from. From a news site yes, but some design company or courier, no way.

I'm guessing you've tested this hypothesis out thoroughly and know this for a fact, I take it?

Listen, it all depends on what you got to say and how you say it.

The reason you don't think it'll work is because you're used to dull corporate style emails clogging up your inbox.

And yes, if you do it that way, it ain't going to work.

So I do understand your skepticism.

What I do is make my emails fun, interesting and entertaining. "Infotaining", if you will.
But always its done with ultimate aim of selling my products and services.

If you do that , people will open them and look forward to them , as I've previously stated.
And they will buy from you.

There's a goldmine of opportunity to be had with email marketing IF you do it correctly ( ie talk like a human being and not a soulless corporation relentlessly plugging their product )

Make no mistake , its hard bloody work but if you're willing to put in the effort, it'll pay off handsomely.

If you want examples that prove what I'm saying, Ill be happy to show anyone that PM's me.

Peterdalkey

Brilliantly argued, but absolute twaddle, if it is supposed to represent B2B marketing advice. High quality spam/sh*te is still spam/sh*te! News is different, but no SME or even MNC has that amount of INTERESTING news or advice.

If you have the recipe for what you are using, in any legal ingestable form, I would be interested in investing substantial funds in your compound.