Waterford Airport moves a step closer towards runway extension

fuzzy dunlop

Interesting some news that FG can propagandize locally and it is allowed outside of the censorship political megathread unmolested for how many posts? Sure there's no agenda here at all!

Let's be clear about something.The airport has not received any money. And afaik they will not unless they can raise something like secven million themselves. That was the original condition of the grant and that has not changed. I have a feeling that this is the sachilles heel of this and it will never have to be honoured.lets hope I am wrong.

tankbarry

Well its more than maintenance as it increases the type of aircraft we can take

Not true at all Sully. The money being received by the Airport will have nothing to do with a RUNWAY and that is FACT. I believe its all spin by a certain politician that knows his votes are falling away.

tankbarry

Sully I know you got me banned for trolling before which was funny to be honest because I rarely post here. My last post is not a trolling post its an honest view on what I think about John Deasy's remarks all comment's he made have no truth in them. The land bought is for a safety zone and for approach lights for the 03 end. He is feeding false facts out to look good.

Sully

tankbarry wrote: »

Not true at all Sully. The money being received by the Airport will have nothing to do with a RUNWAY and that is FACT. I believe its all spin by a certain politician that knows his votes are falling away.

Okay, so it appears myself and the media have been misinformed. Please, give us the facts you hold so we can go back to the media and get this corrected.

tankbarry wrote: »

... honest view on what I think about John Deasy's remarks all comment's he made have no truth in them. The land bought is for a safety zone and for approach lights for the 03 end. He is feeding false facts out to look good.

Well it appears we are all mistaken and I am going on the media here. Obviously this land wouldn't have been purchased and a grant not sought if it wasn't important for the airport. It was my understanding that we were slightly restricted in terms of certain types of air craft and this will improve our chances of increasing our chances of drawing in that bit bigger of aircraft. I'm not talking about 747s.

Looking back over the WLRfm article - that's exactly what it says is going to happen. Nothing about developing a larger runway to take much larger planes. You on the one hand say WLR is wrong, then proceed to tell us what is happening which is what's on the WLR website to begin with?

Let their be no mistake, I am welcoming this as good news because that's what it is. If we didn't get the funding, there would be uproar. Perhaps people need to stop jumping on the 'Sully's positive about the government, go get him!' and ignoring my posts that are not positive!

sparkling sea

Many and some groingups have been heavily lobbying for an extension to Waterford airport for several years now. Credit should be extended to all concerned and not just our TDs however it would appear we are a long way from 737's.

Max Powers

all in all, a lot of anger, most on here think that this money will not do anything significant to the runway. It certainly seems that way, would be good to get a release from the airport. Maybe it slow coming out with a statement as boss man is leaving there soon.
From reading these posts and articles in the N&S (phoenix) and general conversations, the consensus on here is that we arent getting the help we need. Suggestions like, some employment announcements, Uni and getting the better regional EU aid level (like Galway) are things that matter (Paudie is on about it in N&S) and what we need. 400k for airport and a new fire station are all welcome but by the sounds of things, unless concrete things that help our economy are put in place, the 2 FGs and Conway may be worried about their votes, in the city area at least.

fuzzy dunlop

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Do tell me more, what lower rate do they have?

There are certain tax breaks available for multinationals who set up shop in the BMW (NUTS2 REGION) region in which Galway is the only urban centre over 20000 people. So for that region Galway is the main Beneficiary. The same tax breaks are available in the Southern and Eastern region (NUTS2 REGION) but only at a third of what is available in Galway. The BMW region was created by the government to make this situation possible and to milk EU grants for as long as possible for the West. It is also interesting that the EU wanted to provide grants through the regional authorities (NUTS3 REGIONS) as this would have been more equitable but the government refused because they wanted to control the grants centrally. The consequence of this is that there are more EU grants available to a relatively prosperous county like Galway who essentially does not need them any more because it is surrounded by regions that do need them but are probably not getting them. Then there is places in the South East who should get them like Waterford,Kilkenny and Wexford which is now the poorest region in Ireland but don't because they are surrounded by relatively prosperous regions like Dublin and Cork. This is the scam that passes for liberal market policy in Ireland.

fuzzy dunlop

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

There are certain tax breaks available for multinationals who set up shop in the BMW (NUTS2 REGION) region in which Galway is the only urban centre over 20000 people. So for that region Galway is the main Beneficiary. The same tax breaks are available in the Southern and Eastern region (NUTS2 REGION) but only at a third of what is available in Galway. The BMW region was created by the government to make this situation possible and to milk EU grants for as long as possible for the West. It is also interesting that the EU wanted to provide grants through the regional authorities (NUTS3 REGIONS) as this would have been more equitable but the government refused because they wanted to control the grants centrally. The consequence of this is that there are more EU grants available to a relatively prosperous county like Galway who essentially does not need them any more because it is surrounded by regions that do need them but are probably not getting them. Then there is places in the South East who should get them like Waterford,Kilkenny and Wexford which is now the poorest region in Ireland but don't because they are surrounded by relatively prosperous regions like Dublin and Cork. This is the scam that passes for liberal market policy in Ireland.

Fair enough - I went looking to see what I could find - it relates to regional aid rather than to corporation tax.
http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2013-01-22a.507
It also looks like it is falling.

Cabaal

Teebor15, banned for one month for personal abuse,
I'm sick to death of repeating myself on this one lads, attack the post, NOT the poster!

If people have problems with posts then please use the report post option.

fuzzy dunlop

Sully wrote: »

Is the runway not part of Waterford Airport?



I have no problems discussing waterford political issues, good or bad, outside the political megathread. That's not my call. But most people don't want to see every single thread dragged into a general political discussion, hence the megathread, so that's the only reason im not getting into the stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

You know that already though.

You can't discuss WIT,WRH,The airport or jobs without discussing the political angle as practically every aspect of the funding is politically controlled.This is why the mega thread is a total nonsense case.It is also an untruth to say every single thread is being dragged into a political discussion. They are not. It is only the threads discussing the things that I mentioned which are about four threads in total. The posters who think you can discuss these things without criticizing our politicians are not living in reality if they exist at all outside of FG/Labour supporters.I seem to remember you had no problem with things descending into a political discussion when the wind was at the backs of FG and they were riding high in the polls.There was never a problem here criticizing any politician or party except when it became too hot on here for supporters of FG and Phil Hogan. That is the unadulterated fact.

tankbarry

Gary Wyse , John Halligan , david cullinane , have all said that the south east needs Waterford Airport and that funding should be provided. If anybody does say that it was all John Deasy or even Coffey that only pushed this would be wrong.

Can I say again the money that the airport got is for a Safety area at the 03 end AKA the tramore end.

Sully

tankbarry wrote: »

Gary Wyse , John Halligan , david cullinane , have all said that the south east needs Waterford Airport and that funding should be provided. If anybody does say that it was all John Deasy or even Coffey that only pushed this would be wrong.

Nobody said it was a solo run by John Deasy. Nobody said it was politicians only.

Can I say again the money that the airport got is for a Safety area at the 03 end AKA the tramore end.

Which, if I am not mistaken, would allow for certain type of additional aircraft that couldn't come originally?

Captain Havoc

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

You can't discuss WIT,WRH,The airport or jobs without discussing the political angle as practically every aspect of the funding is politically controlled.This is why the mega thread is a total nonsense case.It is also an untruth to say every single thread is being dragged into a political discussion. They are not. It is only the threads discussing the things that I mentioned which are about four threads in total. The posters who think you can discuss these things without criticizing our politicians are not living in reality if they exist at all outside of FG/Labour supporters.I seem to remember you had no problem with things descending into a political discussion when the wind was at the backs of FG and they were riding high in the polls.There was never a problem here criticizing any politician or party except when it became too hot on here for supporters of FG and Phil Hogan. That is the unadulterated fact.

Give it a rest.

dzilla

Captain Havoc wrote: »

Give it a rest.

He is right though

letsbet

Sully wrote: »

Its something Waterford people are calling for and our TDs are stepping up to their mark on the subject. Like the University. Whether it will generate anything is a different debate!

Christ on a bike, are people still deluded into think we will ever have a university here. Nevermind the distinction between technological university and proper university, we won't even qualify for the former. Hopefully any extension to the airport will have a real impact.

thomasm

The Galway forum are moaning about favorable treatment for Waterford Airport because of our 'minister' . Galway moaning about Waterford is nothing short of hilarious

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057013153

notharrypotter

Around €850,000 will now be needed from the private sector and local authority sources to fully finance the project but in committing this grant of €405,000, I think the department feels happy with the private sector involvement in meeting the balance of the project cost,” Mr Deasy said.

I think some people are getting carried away with the good news.

Grant €405,000
€850,000 more needed from the private sector and local authority sources

Can any of the local authorities justify that level of an outlay in the current climate.

What realistically are the chances of a scheduled operation justifying this level of investment?

From the sister region it appears that Galway "Park and Ride" is a sideways effort to keep that airport going.

technological university

WRTC as I knew it served a purpose.
Still trying to see the benefit of Uni status.

tankbarry

Which, if I am not mistaken, would allow for certain type of additional aircraft that couldn't come originally?

that's true Sully. But the still need to extend the runway for the aircraft to be used without restrictions.

notharrypotter

But the still need to extend the runway for the aircraft to be used without restrictions.

So after an outlay of €1.2 million its still not long enough?

tankbarry

for flybe jet's and airbus 318/ 150metre extension would be ok. and you still could use the 146. but for a a320 or 737 you would need 1850-1900 metres for them to takeoff

Max Powers

notharrypotter wrote: »

So after an outlay of €1.2 million its still not long enough?

in a previous post i outlined what the options are:
10million is the gold plated option (probably handle all sorts of jets)
5m approx next best (probably most smaller jets)
1-2m (most basic option but progress and will make London route jets more attractive to airport)

im no expert but that is the gist of what the situation is from what i read some time ago.

notharrypotter

for flybe jet's and airbus 318/ 150metre extension would be ok. and you still could use the 146. but for a a320 or 737 you would need 1850-1900 metres for them to takeoff

The last BAE-146 was made in 2001/2002 so that should not be in the calculations for usage.

5m approx next best (probably most smaller jets)
1-2m (most basic option but progress and will make London route jets more attractive to airport)

Lads any chance for a change in Ireland if we are doing something we do it properly.

By simply extending the runway to make London more attractive to jet operators is a terrible way to do business.

This market can be adequately served by turbo prop at present.

Turbo props may be not sexy but for the distance and population involved they are ideal.


What I believe is a proper study done based on

• Who in Europe is using smaller Jets and what is the likelihood of they providing a service to Waterford (if ever) ?
  
• If no jet service is feasible/likely then we should look at who has a turbo prop fleet with spare capacity.
  
• What likelihood that this operator is going to be able/interested in providing a service to Waterford.

If this criteria cannot be satisfied then is this money little more than a stroke to make the local politicians look good.

Then we long finger any proper discussion on the roles of airports in Ireland, the closing date for comments was 20th of June if my memory serves me right.

Max Powers

notharrypotter wrote: »

The last BAE-146 was made in 2001/2002 so that should not be in the calculations for usage.



Lads any chance for a change in Ireland if we are doing something we do it properly.

By simply extending the runway to make London more attractive to jet operators is a terrible way to do business.

This market can be adequately served by turbo prop at present.

Turbo props may be not sexy but for the distance and population involved they are ideal.


What I believe is a proper study done based on

• Who in Europe is using smaller Jets and what is the likelihood of they providing a service to Waterford (if ever) ?
  
• If no jet service is feasible/likely then we should look at who has a turbo prop fleet with spare capacity.
  
• What likelihood that this operator is going to be able/interested in providing a service to Waterford.

If this criteria cannot be satisfied then is this money little more than a stroke to make the local politicians look good.

Then we long finger any proper discussion on the roles of airports in Ireland, the closing date for comments was 20th of June if my memory serves me right.

great, how do you propose we get the money then? Im sure there are numerous reports and studies done of the benefit to region if it can attract more flights, they aint gonna come unless it suits them so we have to make it as attractive as possible for them i.e. trying to extend runway etc. Reality is that that is the way most business is done, you make an investment to try get business, if it works, great and we will look at how to increase business even further after that initial investment. im sure if someone paid PWC, they could come up with a convincing study and report for the case to extend a runway to accommodate a380s if you wanted. Getting access to London is key at this stage, thats why focus is on London flights.

wellboytoo

notharrypotter wrote: »

The last BAE-146 was made in 2001/2002 so that should not be in the calculations for usage.



Lads any chance for a change in Ireland if we are doing something we do it properly.

By simply extending the runway to make London more attractive to jet operators is a terrible way to do business.

This market can be adequately served by turbo prop at present.

Turbo props may be not sexy but for the distance and population involved they are ideal.


What I believe is a proper study done based on

• Who in Europe is using smaller Jets and what is the likelihood of they providing a service to Waterford (if ever) ?
  
• If no jet service is feasible/likely then we should look at who has a turbo prop fleet with spare capacity.
  
• What likelihood that this operator is going to be able/interested in providing a service to Waterford.

If this criteria cannot be satisfied then is this money little more than a stroke to make the local politicians look good.

Then we long finger any proper discussion on the roles of airports in Ireland, the closing date for comments was 20th of June if my memory serves me right.

I think you are being a tad simplistic there, the facts are there are a hell of a lot more jets out there than there are turboprops, the runway in WAT is too short and too narrow to be able to pitch for business from the carriers who provide the bulk of the pax movements in Europe, we want to be able to appeal to the whole of the Air transport providers rather than a very small few, simple as that, in your train of thought we would do nothing until we had a carrier signed sealed and delivered and then build the runway a bit naive of you.

Odats

What's the cost involved in extending the runway to accommodate 737's or equivalent in comparison to the proposed extension.

b757

notharrypotter wrote: »

By simply extending the runway to make London more attractive to jet operators is a terrible way to do business.

This market can be adequately served by turbo prop at present.

Turbo props may be not sexy but for the distance and population involved they are ideal.

Make a list of the possible turboprop operators in UK/Ireland or even Europe which would base a Aircraft, Pilots, Engineers, Etc in a virtually unknown airport. There would be only one, two at a push. FlyBe would be WAT's best bet of a LON service but they obviously weighed up all options and decided against it. Who knows, maybe in a few months they may look at it again.

Best thing is to do it, may make it a bit more likely of getting a operator by increasing the type of aircraft which may be available by a airline to start the route.

notharrypotter

Best thing to do it even make it a bit more likely of getting a operator by increasing the type of aircraft which may be available by a airline to start the route.

This may have worked for Kevin Costner but some real world thinking needed.

Im sure there are numerous reports and studies done of the benefit to region if it can attract more flights,

I doubt any Minister or local politico is going to say "sorry lads this is not feasible".

Yes plenty of studies have been done and the lastest version closed for
comments on 30th of June.

http://transport.ie/uploads/documents/feature/IssuesPaper.pdf

Lifted from said document.

If we were to
build our airports from scratch, we would not have as many and most of them would be
located in a different place, connected to railway lines and motorways and more central to
their catchment area. How can our airport infrastructure be used most efficiently and
effectively?

To paraphrase Colm McCarthy of an board snip fame "Proponents always underestimate the cost and over estimate the benefits of a project".

I have seen circles drawn on maps by different groups justifying their favorite airport.
Many conveniently ignore where it overlaps with another airport.

I think you are being a tad simplistic there, the facts are there are a hell of a lot more jets out there than there are turboprops, the runway in WAT is too short and too narrow to be able to pitch for business from the carriers who provide the bulk of the pax movements in Europe

Yes there is a great many Jet Operators in Europe; however most have their assets deployed in a way to maximize their loads and revenue.
A small regional airport in a the SE of a small country off the west coast of Europe makes ZERO economic sense.

Make a list of the possible turboprop operators in UK/Ireland or even Europe which would base a Aircraft, Pilots, Engineers, Etc in a virtually unknown airport. There would be only one, two at a push. FlyBe would be WAT's best bet of a LON service but they obviously weighed up all options and decided against it. Who knows, maybe in a few months they may look at it again.

I agree that the list will be very small but that's the sad reality of living in a small country.

As I said earlier turbo props are not sexy but they are efficient when deployed properly.

Typical ATR42 45 passengers ATR72 75 passengers.

There is a better chance of getting those numbers than 120+ needed for an A318 or larger not to mention the 180 needed for a Ryanair B737 -800.

Waterford Airport has a chance if it has the appropriate routes and services.

From my front door Waterford is 65 min but so is cork Cork add 15 min for Shannon; Dublin is 2 hours.

There is a flight to London from Dublin nearly every half hour.

Waterford can never compete on frequency or range of destinations.

It can only be a niche player.

The trick is to find the niche.

bilibob

I think they should make the runway long enough to accommodate Boeing 737. I agree that there is probably plenty of competition throughout Ireland, but we can't compete at all if we don't have the runway. Frankfurt Hahn is definitely further away from Frankfurt than Waterford is from Dublin, but its a busy little airport. How would it go down if they marketed the airport as Dublin(Waterford) There would be war

Wasn't Ryanair started in Waterford? At the moment Waterford airport really only caters for the people of Waterford, perhaps south Kilkenny. I don't think anyone from Kilkenny, Wexford town or Clonmel would even consider using Waterford airport as it stands, but if a carrier like Ryanair got in and the price was right, the catchment area would grow to include these locations. Farranfore in Kerry has regular flights, a runway suitable for 737s and is fairly close to both Shannon and Cork Airport. It has daily flights to both Luton and Stansted as well as five flights a week to Frankfurt (Hahn)! I think thats incredible for Kerry.

7upfree

Sully wrote: »

Its something Waterford people are calling for and our TDs are stepping up to their mark on the subject. Like the University. Whether it will generate anything is a different debate!

1. it can only be good for the city and is great news.

2. If TDs were stepping up to the mark we would now have Waterford University. And our City Status would be secure. And our Hospital and its services would be secure.

3. It will push Waterford City up the scale, allowing greater access/more carriers/more holiday destinations. And no journeys to cork or Dublin.

As I said - great news.

7upfree

Sully wrote: »

I don't know John, I have never once spoken with him in my entire life, and I know very little about him or what he does or doesn't do for Waterford.

Then how do you know he's lobbying for Waterford? On the basis of press releases?