Homeopathy and Private Health Insurance in Ireland

MadsL

Prince Charles has been lobbying to keep the 4 million quid budget that the NHS spends on homeopathy, which got me curious about the Irish situation.

Here is the state of play with Health Insurance as listed by The Irish Society Of Homeopaths :

Quinn-Healthcare
This company includes Homeopathy as part of its scheme for approved complementary therapies and will make a contribution towards the cost of up to 12 visits per year. Check your own plan for details.
http://www.quinn-healthcare.com

Hibernian Aviva
This company covers Homeopathy and under certain plans offers 30 euro per visit for three visits a year to a Homeopath. Check your own plan for details.
www.hibernianavivahealth.ie/

HSF Health Plan.
This company covers half the cost of Homeopathic treatment up to a maximum of between 130 Euro and 780 euro depending on your treatment plan. Check your own plan for details.
http://www.hsf.eu.com/ireland/

Vhi Petition.
The Voluntary Health Insurance Board (Vhi) refuses to cover homeopathic treatments as part of its patient health insurance packages despite several recent approaches by the Society.
We have therefore arranged a patients' petition and we have asked all our members to collect patientis' signatures.
We intend to use these to make a formal submission to the Vhi for Homeopathic cover.

Source

So The Irish Society Of Homeopaths is campaigning to get to the point where 100% of insurers will cover homeopathy. Given that more budget for homeopathy by the insurers means increased premiums is this fair on people who already pay a fair whack for health insurance.

To my skeptical mind this is akin to car insurance companies using premiums to send out solid gold Padre Pio medals to customers with a note suggesting that there are no side effects to using them to prevent accidents.

I accept that some people misguidedly think there is benefit in homeopathy, however when no proof has ever been offered of its effectiveness, surely regular Mary and Paddy should not be subsiding it.

I propose legislation to remove the subsidy and only allow coverage of homeopathy as add on premium.

Vote away AH.

Christ the Redeemer

I say yes, but I honestly don't give a dam what these companies do with their money.

MadsL

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

I say yes, but I honestly don't give a dam what these companies do with their money.

But it is your money if you are a member of a health plan...how would you feel if your car insurer upped your premium to hand out "fuel efficiency magnets" that had no scientific evidence to prove they work?

Pedro K

****. I voted incorrectly. Didn't read the question fully. I meant to vote yes, they should cease subsidising homeopathic treatments.

It's just feckin water!

jimgoose

Broke my arm a few years back. The orthopaedic geezer was one of these homeopathy freaks. Instead of putting a cast on the thing he'd put a few rubs of Tipp-Ex on it every second Tuesday. Feckin' shenanigans!!

Shenshen

They are private companies so they can spend money any way they see fit within legal boundaries.

However, I personally find it highly dubious that a health insurer would be happy to foot the bill for their members to put their health at risk by not seeing a doctor for medical problems.

Yes, there is the placebo effect to consider, but I feel it should be left to professionals as to when it might be appropriate.

spiritcrusher

All VHI subscribers who need homeopathic medicine should get in contact with me. I got a pretty much infinite supply here in my kitch...eh... Office. I'll give you a discounted rate.

endacl

Sure, hasn't it been pi55ing down homeopathy here for the last few days?

endacl

Pedro K wrote: »

****. I voted incorrectly. Didn't read the question fully. I meant to vote yes, they should cease subsidising homeopathic treatments.

It's just feckin water!

+1

New poll!

:eek:

MadsL

Shenshen wrote: »

They are private companies so they can spend money any way they see fit within legal boundaries.

Let me phrase it another way:

Would you support a private health insurance company reducing its budget for say, cancer treatment, in favour of an increased coverage of homeopathy.

Because, frankly, there is a limited pot of money in these companies budgets. they either cut (your) coverage for some health events or raise premiums in order to compete with each other.

If one company allows reimbursement of homeopathy then th eothers have to compete - they either raise rated (unlikely) or cut services/coverage elsewhere.

I'm finding it hard to see how people cannot see how allowing homeopathy coverage doesn't impact on their health coverage.

I am pie

2 self confessed eejits then who need a higher dose of "clever water" to be administered.

Health insurance should cover all medication which has successfully passed clinical trials and have been peer reviewed.

So, that rules out quackery, snake oil, talk of water with memory and whatever other pish that is touted being as medicine by the homeopaths.

Cue a torrent of posts with anecdotal evidence about XYZ being cured by a variety of magic potions and rubs.

Shenshen

MadsL wrote: »

Let me phrase it another way:

Would you support a private health insurance company reducing its budget for say, cancer treatment, in favour of an increased coverage of homeopathy.

Because, frankly, there is a limited pot of money in these companies budgets. they either cut (your) coverage for some health events or raise premiums in order to compete with each other.

If one company allows reimbursement of homeopathy then th eothers have to compete - they either raise rated (unlikely) or cut services/coverage elsewhere.

I'm finding it hard to see how people cannot see how allowing homeopathy coverage doesn't impact on their health coverage.

I never said I wouldn't be pissed off about it. Just that as a private company, at the end of the day it's their choice.

MadsL

This is odd:

We will pay for treatment and prescribed drugs for the following Complementary Medicines: Chiropractic, Osteopathic, Acupuncture, Homeopathic,
Ayurvedic treatment including Herbal and Chinese medicines provided such treatment is given by a licensed practitioner and received following a
written referral from Your registered general practitioner.

VHI caved on overseas treatments under their travel insurance policy.
https://www.vhi.ie/pdf/products/VhiInternational_Jan13.pdf

endacl

I am pie wrote: »

Cue a torrent of posts with anecdotal evidence about XYZ being cured by a variety of magic potions and rubs.

I fell down when I was five and bumped my knee. My mammy kissed it better.

If private health insurers are funding homeobollixology, they'd better be shelling out for mammykissopathy too...

MadsL

Shenshen wrote: »

I never said I wouldn't be pissed off about it. Just that as a private company, at the end of the day it's their choice.

Should there be any supervision of how they spend members money do you think?

If a credit union invested in conflict diamonds would that also be "up to them"?

GLaDOS

I really don't understand how people believe this stuff. Like it doesn't even sound halfway convincing.

Corkfeen

By their logic, faith healers should also be covered under it. It's astonishing how few people understand what quackery homeopathy is.

endacl

Corkfeen wrote: »

By their logic, faith healers should also be covered under it. It's astonishing how few people understand what quackery homeopathy is.

Here's a refresher...

Duggy747

The art of selling water, it's like selling Irish air in jars.

MadsL

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I really don't understand how people believe this stuff. Like it doesn't even sound halfway convincing.

There are 400 members of the ISoH - that's one homeopath for every 16,000 people in Ireland.

There are about 2,500 GPs in Ireland. So one homeopath for every six or so GPs. :eek:


Someone is making a shitton of money. If I could have my integrity surgically removed, I'd be at it too.

Shenshen

MadsL wrote: »

Should there be any supervision of how they spend members money do you think?

If a credit union invested in conflict diamonds would that also be "up to them"?

How do you know they don't ?

Yes, I do think it needs to be up to them... at the end of the day, if a group of homeopathy afficionados got together tomorrow to found a new insurance company, which will only pay for homeopathic treatment, they'd also be within their rights.

What I would like to see is legislation that will ensure children will receive proper medical treatment if they need it, as they usually don't have a choice but are utterly at the mercy of their parents.
So homeopathic treatments for children should only be paid by the insurance if a GP has approved of it. That should be the law, I feel.

endacl

Duggy747 wrote: »

The art of selling water, it's like selling Irish air in jars.

Actually, its less valid. If the 'Irish air' was sold in jars that had been hermetically sealed in Ireland, then it would be air collected in Ireland.

Indistinguishable from Indian air, Australian air, Kenyan air.....

Duggy747

endacl wrote: »

Actually, its less valid. If the 'Irish air' was sold in jars that had been hermetically sealed in Ireland, then it would be air collected in Ireland.

Indistinguishable from Indian air, Australian air, Kenyan air.....

McGuiggans Irish Air!


Made in China

JuliusCaesar

I have only one thing to say




If I knew how to embed the image I would

MadsL

Shenshen wrote: »

Yes, I do think it needs to be up to them... at the end of the day, if a group of homeopathy afficionados got together tomorrow to found a new insurance company, which will only pay for homeopathic treatment, they'd also be within their rights.

Yes, they would. But at least you would know where the money was spent.

At the moment, private health ins companies reduce scientific medicine cover in order to compete with the bandwagon demand for sugar pills.

That, in my view, is irresponsible.

Doctor Strange

There should be no outside funding for this quackery. Non-medical "cures" are costing more and more lives. I have no idea why people buy this stuff over hard, proven science.

I am pie

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

There should be no outside funding for this quackery. Non-medical "cures" are costing more and more lives. I have no idea why people buy this stuff over hard, proven science.

Hope in a bottle...that's about the height of it, sometimes you can't put a price on hope. That is the great shame of it all, people are paying for false hope.

Love2u

endacl wrote: »

I fell down when I was five and bumped my knee. My mammy kissed it better.

If private health insurers are funding homeobollixology, they'd better be shelling out for mammykissopathy too...

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it!!!

endacl

Love2u wrote: »

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it!!!

I try it every day. I've a nice chilled glass of it here in front of me in fact. Very refreshing, but not a treatment for anything but acute thirst.

Love2u

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

There should be no outside funding for this quackery. Non-medical "cures" are costing more and more lives. I have no idea why people buy this stuff over hard, proven science.

Non medical "cures" are costing more and more lives!!!???? Have you the facts and figures for us to prove that?

Love2u

endacl wrote: »

I try it every day. I've a nice chilled glass of it here in front of me in fact. Very refreshing, but not a treatment for anything but acute thirst.

You must be on the beer then! That about sums it up.

endacl

Love2u wrote: »

Non medical "cures" are costing more and more lives!!!???? Have you the facts and figures for us to prove that?

Just to get you started...

http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html

endacl

Love2u wrote: »

You must be on the beer then! That about sums it up.

Nope. A plain old half litre glass, full of a 2:1 ratio of hydrogen and oxygen.

Eeden

MadsL wrote: »

I'm finding it hard to see how people cannot see how allowing homeopathy coverage doesn't impact on their health coverage.

No offence; I think I agree with you basically - but how on earth is a sentence like this to be interpreted by anyone who's even a little bit tired?

MadsL

In India bootleggers operate under the cover of "homeopathy"

http://tribune.com.pk/story/587476/toxic-celebration-drinking-to-death/

40 people have died.

Love2u

endacl wrote: »

Nope. A plain old half litre glass, full of a 2:1 ratio of hydrogen and oxygen.

Is that to cure the hangover

MadsL

Eeden wrote: »

No offence; I think I agree with you basically - but how on earth is a sentence like this to be interpreted by anyone who's even a little bit tired?

I'm sorry, English is my mother tongue.

Eeden

MadsL wrote: »

I'm sorry, English is my mother tongue.

Sorry, just speaking as someone who is a little bit tired!

endacl

Love2u wrote: »

Is that to cure the hangover

Just out of interest, where's the alcohol fixation coming from?

MadsL

Here's some words to scare the living crap outta most sane people.

http://www.cancertutor.com/AIDS/AIDS.html

MadsL

Ahh...that's how you do it...

How to treat breast cancer with homeopathy.

Astonishingly, after writing this article the author got a job as Director of Marketing and Public Relations for a major hospital group. :eek:

endacl

MadsL wrote: »

Ahh...that's how you do it...

How to treat breast cancer with homeopathy.

Astonishingly, after writing this article the author got a job as Director of Marketing and Public Relations for a major hospital group. :eek:

Did you catch this thread?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=85732178

Love2u

endacl wrote: »

Just out of interest, where's the alcohol fixation coming from?

Your joking around, am I not allowed joke too??

In relation to the thread, common sence is also needed when a person is ill. Most "quacks" as you call them will never tell you they will cure you. A doctor wont even tell you they can cure You. Everything you take, be it a prescription from your doctor or a homeopath etc... It's basically at your own risk. No one knows for sure how anyone can react to certain medicines or remedies.

endacl

Love2u wrote: »

Your joking around, am I not allowed joke too??

In relation to the thread, common sence is also needed when a person is ill. Most "quacks" as you call them will never tell you they will cure you. A doctor wont even tell you they can cure You. Everything you take, be it a prescription from your doctor or a homeopath etc... It's basically at your own risk. No one knows for sure how anyone can react to certain medicines or remedies.

1. Absolutely. Common sense is required.
2. Many quacks will tell you they can cure. This is what qualifies them as 'quacks.
3. Any doctor can tell you, based on your condition, statistical evidence, and their own experience, a likely prognosis for the progression of your condition. A homeopath can just 'make stuff up', as there is no documented, peer-reviewed, independent verification of it ever being used to treat anything. Anywhere. Except for thirst of course.
4. When you take a prescription from a doctor it is a 'calculated' risk. An important qualifier.
5. Reactions to any approved drug have been tested, re-tested and verified. A doctor can certainly predict how a patient will react to treatments. They can also predict the range of possible side-effects. For this reason, these days it actually takes on average about seven years to bring a new drug to market.

You're going to have to do better than that...

MadsL

Love2u wrote: »

Your joking around, am I not allowed joke too??

In relation to the thread, common sence is also needed when a person is ill. Most "quacks" as you call them will never tell you they will cure you. A doctor wont even tell you they can cure You. Everything you take, be it a prescription from your doctor or a homeopath etc... It's basically at your own risk. No one knows for sure how anyone can react to certain medicines or remedies.

Right. So that is why medicines are subjected to medical trials. Because they have actual active ingredients.

However in the case of homoeopathy, because there is literally nothing in the sugar pills or water except sugar and water there are NO controls about prescribing water or sugar.

Personally, I would be worried about someone who promised 100% to cure me, much as I would worry about someone who promised to double my money if I invested with then.

Tell me, since it is important to breathe would you believe someone who promised 100% to cure you by teaching you the correct way to breathe.

MadsL

Love2u wrote: »

Your joking around, am I not allowed joke too??

In relation to the thread, common sence is also needed when a person is ill. Most "quacks" as you call them will never tell you they will cure you. A doctor wont even tell you they can cure You. Everything you take, be it a prescription from your doctor or a homeopath etc... It's basically at your own risk. No one knows for sure how anyone can react to certain medicines or remedies.

I can be pretty sure how I react to water and sugar pills. Unless you have brittle diabetes the outcome is the same for 100% of people.

Intentional 'overdose' on 10/23

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd7IUJv_Fvw

Akrasia

endacl wrote: »

I fell down when I was five and bumped my knee. My mammy kissed it better.

If private health insurers are funding homeobollixology, they'd better be shelling out for mammykissopathy too...

I would whole heartedly support a kiss it better placebo service funded by health insurance as long as the practitioner meets certain qualifications

It would be just as effective as homeopathy and a hell of a lot more fun.

martinedwards

Lets apply some logic.

to cure your illness with conventional medecine and regular healthcare will cost.... say... 10,000....

for Homeopathy.....

a cheque for 1c should cover it......

Shenshen

martinedwards wrote: »

Lets apply some logic.

to cure your illness with conventional medecine and regular healthcare will cost.... say... 10,000....

for Homeopathy.....

a cheque for 1c should cover it......

*lol Not really. Homeopathic remedies and treatments must have by far the widest margins in all of the pharmaceutical world (if I may count them towards that for the sake of comparison) :

No expenses in research, no need to exhaustively test their product and document the results, no lengthy approval processes to be able to legally sell the product, no expensive manufacturing equipment - all you need is a tab and a pack of sugar and you're in business.
Yet they charge similar rates to actual drugs.

As someone said, if I didn't have a conscience I might cash in on this myself.

keithclancy

They Subsidise Homeopathy but not K2 or White Widow ??

Dravokivich

Love2u wrote: »

Your joking around, am I not allowed joke too??

In relation to the thread, common sence is also needed when a person is ill. Most "quacks" as you call them will never tell you they will cure you. A doctor wont even tell you they can cure You. Everything you take, be it a prescription from your doctor or a homeopath etc... It's basically at your own risk. No one knows for sure how anyone can react to certain medicines or remedies.

Well... people have been known to drown as a result of drinking a huge quantity of water. Maybe they should be such a warning label on their homeopathic remedies. After all, coffee shops have to warn their patrons the contents may be hot.