Homeopathy and Private Health Insurance in Ireland

Anita Blow

Homeopathy is complete nonsense but I don't have a problem with is being covered by private insurers.
Of course Quinn or VHI etc. aren't expecting people to forgo actual medical treatment in favour of homeopathic remedies, but if a GP feels that all a patient needs is a placebo then they will quite often tell the patient to get a homeopathic remedy.

hardCopy

Dravokivich wrote: »

Well... people have been known to drown as a result of drinking a huge quantity of water. Maybe they should be such a warning label on their homeopathic remedies. After all, coffee shops have to warn their patrons the contents may be hot.

Many homeopathic remedies contain potentially fatal levels of Dyhydrogen-monoxide.

Shenshen

hardCopy wrote: »

Many homeopathic remedies contain potentially fatal levels of Dyhydrogen-monoxide.

THAT old hat? Seriously? :rolleyes:

They do contain them in non-lethal doses, though.

kylith

I'm against insurers covering homoeopathy. I think that there is only one situation when homoeopathy is acceptable and that's when a GP has decided their patient could benefit from a course of Placebonol.

Canis Lupus

My biggest problem apart from increased premiums all around is the fact that the more insurance companies covering the likes of homeopathy etc just increases it's legitimacy as a medicinal science.

I had a mate who visited a chiropractor in the UK and one of the arguments he used when defending the visit was he had to get a GP referral to go see the quackopracter so it must be a legit treatment. He was surprised when I pointed out that wasn't the case. These joke 'doctors' will use any trick they can find to legitimize their antics.

martinedwards

Chiropractor is a whole different thing.

regular medicine did my back problems no good at all... Bed rest they said! but the chiro sorted me out after two visits.

sadly, my back is too far gone for that to help, but Osteopathy, Chiropractic and the like are at least as good as Physio

the only place that Homeopathy works is in warfare.....

like the SAS.......

but that's only in certain cases!

Canis Lupus

martinedwards wrote: »

Chiropractor is a whole different thing.

regular medicine did my back problems no good at all... Bed rest they said! but the chiro sorted me out after two visits.

sadly, my back is too far gone for that to help, but Osteopathy, Chiropractic and the like are at least as good as Physio

the only place that Homeopathy works is in warfare.....

like the SAS.......

but that's only in certain cases!

It's not a whole different thing, it's quackery.

Here, have a graphic novel on me. LINKY

martinedwards

yup, it's on the internet. that makes it science.

OK some of the looney stuff in the early days of Chiropractic was off the mark by a long way.

treating toothach by spinal manipulation is obviously wrong.

treating back pain WORKED FOR ME over a period of 20 years, when conventional medecine had nothing to offer.

endacl

martinedwards wrote: »

yup, it's on the internet. that makes it science.

OK some of the looney stuff in the early days of Chiropractic was off the mark by a long way.

treating toothach by spinal manipulation is obviously wrong.

treating back pain WORKED FOR ME over a period of 20 years, when conventional medecine had nothing to offer.

Maybe your back pain just 'got better'? That happens too.

VinLieger

Ill just leave this here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

And then respond that homeopathy is a ****ing joke, you wanna get better? go to a doctor and not someone who spends their life prescribing water to cancer patients

Tiddlypeeps

Isn't the NHS similar to our HSE?

If the HSE started offering homeopathy on the medical card I would be pretty pissed. (I have no idea if they do, I really hope they don't)

Private companies are free to sell their product in whatever way they like, as long as it's legal. I don't have to like that my premiums are pushed up because they offer homeopathy, but I also don't have to give them my money.

As it stands offering homeopathy is only going to increase their customer base because it brings in all the quacks, and non quacky people aren't likely to avoid them because of it. So they don't care if it works, all they are doing is giving people what they want so they can make more money.

If you have a big issue with this then start a campaign and get people to boycott the companies that offer it, they will be quick enough removing it if they feel they are losing customers over it.

I don't think the government has any right to meddle in what is legal or not with a companies decisions when those decisions don't infringe on anybody elses rights.

What I do think the government should meddle in tho is false advertisement. Companies such as homeopathic ones should not be allowed to claim their products have any medicinal properties without sufficient evidence to back up the claim. I think the EU are currently pushing a law through that is related to this tho so hopefully it won't be long.

Love2u

Dravokivich wrote: »

Well... people have been known to drown as a result of drinking a huge quantity of water. Maybe they should be such a warning label on their homeopathic remedies. After all, coffee shops have to warn their patrons the contents may be hot.

As I previously stated "common sence" is needed! And that goes for everything we take.

Honey-ec

Love2u wrote: »

As I previously stated "common sence" is needed! And that goes for everything we take.

The point is that people who fall for the absolute joke that is homeopathy are clearly lacking in anything approaching common sense.

Shenshen

Love2u wrote: »

As I previously stated "common sence" is needed! And that goes for everything we take.

Common sense tells me it's ludicrous to pay €5.00 for 20ml of water and expect it to cure a sore throat.

Hoop66

Before you start mocking homeopathy, you shold take a look at this.

http://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/

endacl

Hoop66 wrote: »

Before you start mocking homeopathy, you shold take a look at this.

http://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/

Sorry. Where homeobollixology is concerned, mocking always comes first.

It 'doesn't' work, because it 'can't' work.

Edit: OK. Ya got me good!

Love2u

Shenshen wrote: »

Common sense tells me it's ludicrous to pay €5.00 for 20ml of water and expect it to cure a sore throat.

Ah come on, your taking nonsense now! Don't come on here and talk about something you haven't a clue of. Show me the proof you pay 5€ for 20ml of water and its expected to cure a sore throat!? Prove it and we can have a mature conversation on the matter.

Love2u

endacl wrote: »

Sorry. Where homeobollixology is concerned, mocking always comes first.

It 'doesn't' work, because it 'can't' work.

Edit: OK. Ya got me good!

Try it and then tell us it doesn't work!

endacl

Love2u wrote: »

Ah come on, your taking nonsense now! Don't come on here and talk about something you haven't a clue of. Show me the proof you pay 5€ for 20ml of water and its expected to cure a sore throat!? Prove it and we can have a mature conversation on the matter.

If you think homeopathy works, a mature conversation won't be possible. You obviously wouldn't understand the rigorous standards by which efficacy of treatment is assessed. If you did, you wouldn't be posting as you do.

Love2u

kylith wrote: »

I'm against insurers covering homoeopathy. I think that there is only one situation when homoeopathy is acceptable and that's when a GP has decided their patient could benefit from a course of Placebonol.

Why would GP's recommend homeopathy? Sure if doctors would do this how would all the multi million national drug companies make their profits! It would go against doctors teachings.

Honey-ec

Love2u wrote: »

Try it and then tell us it doesn't work!

This is where the axiom "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into" springs to mind.

The entire medical profession is agreed that it doesn't work. All the known laws of chemistry, physics and biology would need to be inverted in order for it to be possible to work. This is why there is no need for anyone to try it in order to tell you that it doesn't work.

Unfortunately, nothing that we tell you is going to make the slightest bit of difference to you, because you are not arguing from a position of logic. Your mind is made up and that's that, no amount of empirical data or evidence is going to change it.

I feel a bit sorry for you, tbh.

endacl

Love2u wrote: »

Why would GP's recommend homeopathy? Sure if doctors would do this how would all the multi million national drug companies make their profits! It would go against doctors teachings.

Yes. Of course it would....

'Multi million national' by the way? Are there millions of nationalities now? You appear to be having difficulty with geography too. Perhaps you're not best qualified to discuss this one?

Love2u

Honey-ec wrote: »

This is where the axiom "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into" springs to mind.

The entire medical profession is agreed that it doesn't work. All the known laws of chemistry, physics and biology would need to be inverted in order for it to be possible to work. This is why there is no need for anyone to try it in order to tell you that it doesn't work.

Unfortunately, nothing that we tell you is going to make the slightest bit of difference to you, because you are not arguing from a position of logic. Your mind is made up and that's that, no amount of empirical data or evidence is going to change it.

I feel a bit sorry for you, tbh.

I feel sorry for you too . We can all believe in whatever we want to, just because Someone isn't on your way of thinking does that mean you feel sorry for them! Strange behaviour

Love2u

endacl wrote: »

Yes. Of course it would....

'Multi million national' by the way? Are there millions of nationalities now? You appear to be having difficulty with geography too. Perhaps you're not best qualified to discuss this one?

Oh excuse my terrible typing! And are you qualified to discuss this?

humanji

Love2u wrote: »

Why would GP's recommend homeopathy? Sure if doctors would do this how would all the multi million national drug companies make their profits!

Well once the patients realised that the homeopathic remedy did nothing, they'd have to go back to the doctors for real medicine, so the national drug companies would still make a profit.

endacl

Love2u wrote: »

I feel sorry for you too . We can all believe in whatever we want to, just because Someone isn't on your way of thinking does that mean you feel sorry for them! Strange behaviour

'Believe'? There you go. That's why a homeopath gets to sell you water. Have you actually looked into the subject at all? Or is it just a nice fluffy alternative to the evil 'multi million national' drug companies?

Here's some advice. Next time you're sick, do nothing. Same result as homeobollixology, but cheaper.

Love2u

humanji wrote: »

Well once the patients realised that the homeopathic remedy did nothing, they'd have to go back to the doctors for real medicine, so the national drug companies would still make a profit.

And what about when the patients realised that the homeopathic did "something" it did work. Then there would be no need to go back to the doctor for "real medicine". No profit for the drug companies!

Love2u

endacl wrote: »

'Believe'? There you go. That's why a homeopath gets to sell you water. Have you actually looked into the subject at all? Or is it just a nice fluffy alternative to the evil 'multi million national' drug companies?

Here's some advice. Next time you're sick, do nothing. Same result as homeobollixology, but cheaper.

They have never sold me water! Also I don't need to take advice from you. I've tried and tested. Thanks for your great insight all the same , have a great day.

humanji

Love2u wrote: »

And what about when the patients realised that the homeopathic did "something" it did work. Then there would be no need to go back to the doctor for "real medicine". No profit for the drug companies!

But it won't do anything. That's the proven, scientific point. Anything that happens is nothing to do with the "remedy", and so the patient wouldn't have needed the real medicine either.

endacl

Love2u wrote: »

They have never sold me water! Also I don't need to take advice from you. I've tried and tested. Thanks for your great insight all the same , have a great day.

If you've bought a 'preparation' from a homeobollixologist, then yes. They have sold you water. I'm posting this vid again, to save you scrolling back through the thread. Any chance of you watching it and then getting back with a response? Not too long, only about 15 minutes, and quite entertaining too.

The Humble Sausage

I wasn't aware that VHI didnt cover Homeopathy. I will be changing from Laya to VHI on renewal.
Ive often wondered about petitioning the insurers to offer a package without the 'Quackery'. A scientifically sound health insurance package if you will. It would be a touch cheaper and would go a long way to putting these pi$$merchants to the wall.

endacl

The Humble Sausage wrote: »

I wasn't aware that VHI didnt cover Homeopathy. I will be changing from Laya to VHI on renewal.
Ive often wondered about petitioning the insurers to offer a package without the 'Quackery'. A scientifically sound health insurance package if you will. It would be a touch cheaper and would go a long way to putting these pi$$merchants to the wall.

Don't forget to let them know why you're not renewing your cover with them.

MadsL

Canis Lupus wrote: »

It's not a whole different thing, it's quackery.

Here, have a graphic novel on me. LINKY

I do not recognise any of those camps. I have been treated by a chiropracter once and never went back as he wanted to charge for a course of treatment; I have regular found back pain relief from oesteopaths -often unable to stand straight going in, and perfectly straight coming out. I don't recognise any of the quackery from treatment at chiropracters here in the US.

Love2u wrote: »

Ah come on, your taking nonsense now! Don't come on here and talk about something you haven't a clue of. Show me the proof you pay 5€ for 20ml of water and its expected to cure a sore throat!? Prove it and we can have a mature conversation on the matter.

OK - easy enough. BELLADONNA: This medicine is the most common remedy for acute tonsilitis. It is also commonly given at the early stages of other types of sore throat. Source

Buy it here in 30C "strength"

$6.85 = €5.17

I await the mature conversation.

Benny_Cake

Love2u wrote: »

And what about when the patients realised that the homeopathic did "something" it did work. Then there would be no need to go back to the doctor for "real medicine". No profit for the drug companies!

And who, pray tell, manufactures homeopathic "remedies"? Drug companies, except in this case the drugs don't work.

Jonny7

Wow the pharma shills sure are busy today

Once again, irrefutable proof that homeopathy actually works

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

Tiddlypeeps

MadsL wrote: »

I do not recognise any of those camps. I have been treated by a chiropracter once and never went back as he wanted to charge for a course of treatment; I have regular found back pain relief from oesteopaths -often unable to stand straight going in, and perfectly straight coming out. I don't recognise any of the quackery from treatment at chiropracters here in the US.
.

Osteopaths are very different to chiropracters. Osteopathay is at the very least based on scientific reasoning. It's not a protected term here tho so you can never be sure the one you visit is the real deal or even has any formal qualifications. I went to see one before that called himself a cranial osteopath, never encountered such quackary in my life. Spent 30 minutes tapping on my head

seamus

As if by coincidence there's a documentary on CH4 right now about a crazy bitch who went to court to fight for her right to refuse radio/chemotherapy for her child who had a brain tumour and treat him with alternative therapies instead.

Thankfully she lost, but they've been going through the various things she believes in, going on about "auras" and "spirits", and some snake oil salesman selling her a radiowave detector (no doubt for £200 more than it would cost to make) to help shield against radiowaves.

That's what's wrong with Homeopathy and all the various other "alternative" therapies. It's not a harmless "ah sure let them at it" pursuit. It has very real and serious consequences for the gullible fools who get sucked into it, goaded on and exploited by people who are either similar fools or vicious scumbags.

Private medical insurance should refuse to pay out for these treatments because it only legitimises them. There is nothing whatsoever stopping me from opening a homeopathic shop tomorrow with shelves and shelves of vials that I filled from my kitchen tap. They would work as well as any other homeopathic remedy and the taxpayer would be paying for my products. Anyone who can't see how wrong that is, needs their head examined (by a real doctor, please).

cooperguy

Love2u wrote: »

And what about when the patients realised that the homeopathic did "something" it did work. Then there would be no need to go back to the doctor for "real medicine". No profit for the drug companies!

That is called "Regression to the Mean"

Where do you think the profits go to when you buy a homeopathic remedy? They just go to a different type of "drug" company.

Anita Blow

martinedwards wrote: »

sadly, my back is too far gone for that to help, but Osteopathy, Chiropractic and the like are at least as good as Physio

As a physio who has had to treat patients in hospital who have had their backs ruined by an Osteopath, I'd completely disagree.
Physio is completely evidence-based & treats the cause rather than just the symptoms like a chiropractic does. Chiropractic is a placebo effect at best and even that is being generous. The idea that your spine can be out of alignment is ridiculous. You could be hit by a truck and your spine would remain in alignment.

marco_polo

Maybe its a shrew business practice by those insurers, after all most of the homeopathy fools will try almost anything bar expensive conventional medical treatments.

Sulla Felix

Pedro K wrote: »

****. I voted incorrectly. Didn't read the question fully. I meant to vote yes, they should cease subsidising homeopathic treatments.

It's just feckin water!

Fsck. Same thing. Had a rant ready about how you're all a bunch of idiots for thinking they should be subbing it. :o

MadsL

Anita Blow wrote: »

As a physio who has had to treat patients in hospital who have had their backs ruined by an Osteopath, I'd completely disagree.
Physio is completely evidence-based & treats the cause rather than just the symptoms like a chiropractic does. Chiropractic is a placebo effect at best and even that is being generous. The idea that your spine can be out of alignment is ridiculous. You could be hit by a truck and your spine would remain in alignment.

Ruined?

How so...

What damage is done by osteopathic treatment?

Edit: http://whatstheharm.net/osteopathy.html

I see a lot of idiocy, but not much regular osteopathic manipulation. Is there any evidence of harm done by spinial manipulation?

blindside88

That info must be very very old and I imagine has changed, Quinn health insurance is now laya, Hibernian aviva is now aviva and they are missing Glohealth, if they can't keep the providers updated I doubt they keep the benefits updated.

Tiddlypeeps

MadsL wrote: »

Ruined?

How so...

What damage is done by osteopathic treatment?

I mentioned in a previous post that osteopathy is not a protected term in this country, you need no formal qualifications to call yourself an osteopath. The same applies to chiropractors.

I've read good things about osteopathy and I've had a great experience with one clinic in Dublin but there are some serious nut jobs out there trying to pass themselves off as something they are not.

If someone claiming to be an osteopath did injure someone then they weren't practicing it correctly. Osteopathy is really gentle, it's not supposed to be clicks and snaps like a chiropractor. It's much closer to physiotherapy.

MadsL

blindside88 wrote: »

That info must be very very old and I imagine has changed, Quinn health insurance is now laya, Hibernian aviva is now aviva and they are missing Glohealth, if they can't keep the providers updated I doubt they keep the benefits updated.

Laya..

50% of costs covered

Aviva

Cover homeopaths

Glohealth

Seem to cover homeopathy, reflexology, nutritionist, massage, acupuncture, osteopathy, physical therapists, chiropractor, and even reiki!!

Anita Blow

MadsL wrote: »

Ruined?

How so...

What damage is done by osteopathic treatment?

Edit: http://whatstheharm.net/osteopathy.html

I see a lot of idiocy, but not much regular osteopathic manipulation. Is there any evidence of harm done by spinial manipulation?

Had a patient in June with crippling Lower Back Pain after treatment by an Osteopath who needed full physio & medical treatment. Don't know what the osteopath did (I had barely heard of osteopathy before that) but the patient could not even roll over in bed himself due to the pain.

MadsL

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I mentioned in a previous post that osteopathy is not a protected term in this country, you need no formal qualifications to call yourself an osteopath.

It is in the UK however and most osteopaths I have seen in Ireland have been UK qualified.

endacl

The Humble Sausage wrote: »

I wasn't aware that VHI didnt cover Homeopathy. I will be changing from Laya to VHI on renewal.
Ive often wondered about petitioning the insurers to offer a package without the 'Quackery'. A scientifically sound health insurance package if you will. It would be a touch cheaper and would go a long way to putting these pi$$merchants to the wall.

FFS. That's not all that VHI cover... :eek:

"We will pay for treatment and prescribed drugs for the following Complementary Medicines: Chiropractic, Osteopathic, Acupuncture, Homeopathic, Ayurvedic treatment including Herbal and Chinese medicines provided such treatment is given by a licensed practitioner"

https://www.vhi.ie/pdf/products/VhiInternational_Jan13.pdf


Now wonder VHI policies cost so much, if they waste so much cash on that shyte.

MadsL

Anita Blow wrote: »

Had a patient in June with crippling Lower Back Pain after treatment by an Osteopath who needed full physio & medical treatment. Don't know what the osteopath did (I had barely heard of osteopathy before that) but the patient could not even roll over in bed himself due to the pain.

You are a physio and had never heard of osteopathy? Wow.

Tell me, did the patient have that level of pain previously to the visit to the osteopath? You seem quick to blame the osteopath.

Anyway, should we start another thread? We are seriously OT now.

MadsL

endacl wrote: »

FFS. That's not all that VHI cover... :eek:

"We will pay for treatment and prescribed drugs for the following Complementary Medicines: Chiropractic, Osteopathic, Acupuncture, Homeopathic, Ayurvedic treatment including Herbal and Chinese medicines provided such treatment is given by a licensed practitioner"

https://www.vhi.ie/pdf/products/VhiInternational_Jan13.pdf


Now wonder VHI policies cost so much, if they waste so much cash on that shyte.

So there is in fact no "scientific based" insurer in Ireland that doesn't waste money on quack science. Wow.

Talk about dragged to the lowest common denominator.