Homeopathy and Private Health Insurance in Ireland

endacl

MadsL wrote: »

So there is in fact no "scientific based" insurer in Ireland that doesn't waste money on quack science. Wow.

Talk about dragged to the lowest common denominator.

"Ayurvedic treatment" is what did it for me.

There really aren't enough :rolleyes: on the internet to adequately express my :rolleyes: -ness.

Anita Blow

MadsL wrote: »

You are a physio and had never heard of osteopathy? Wow.

Tell me, did the patient have that level of pain previously to the visit to the osteopath? You seem quick to blame the osteopath.

Anyway, should we start another thread? We are seriously OT now.

Why would I have heard of osteopathy? It's not really that big in Ireland to be honest. I had a vague idea of it but don't know the ins and outs of it, the same way I'd have a basic idea of Reiki.

The patient did not, & the entire team were quite confident it was the osteopath's fault, since the patient himself said it occurred after osteopath treatment.

I'm just not a fan of osteopathy/chiropractic purely because unlike herbal remedies & that aura ****e, physical manipulations can do serious damage to a person's body, especially when there is little to no science behind the treatments. On top of that, they do not treat the cause. Sure a chiropractic manipulation might relieve a patient's pain through the placebo effect, but does it correct the underlying postural/biomechanical deficit? No, so the patient will continue to have the pain and will more than likely have to go back for top-up treatments. Meanwhile the underlying deficit will continue to damage the person's body & may lead to a host of other problems in the future.

endacl

MadsL wrote: »

You are a physio and had never heard of osteopathy? Wow.

Tell me, did the patient have that level of pain previously to the visit to the osteopath? You seem quick to blame the osteopath.

Anyway, should we start another thread? We are seriously OT now.

I vote no. We're getting along famously on this one. I'd hate for us to fall out over osteobollixology.

MadsL

Anita Blow wrote: »

Why would I have heard of osteopathy? It's not really that big in Ireland to be honest. I had a vague idea of it but don't know the ins and outs of it, the same way I'd have a basic idea of Reiki.

The patient did not, & the entire team were quite confident it was the osteopath's fault, since the patient himself said it occurred after osteopath treatment.

I'm just not a fan of osteopathy/chiropractic purely because unlike herbal remedies & that aura ****e, physical manipulations can do serious damage to a person's body, especially when there is little to no science behind the treatments. On top of that, they do not treat the cause. Sure a chiropractic manipulation might relieve a patient's pain through the placebo effect, but does it correct the underlying postural/biomechanical deficit? No, so the patient will continue to have the pain and will more than likely have to go back for top-up treatments. Meanwhile the underlying deficit will continue to damage the person's body & may lead to a host of other problems in the future.

I would have thought that a physical therapist would have been familiar with physical manipulation techniques for the relief of back pain, but there we are.

The harm you indicate doesn't really play out in medical studies...in fact, traditional care involved greater use of analgesics.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199911043411903

Patients in both groups improved during the 12 weeks. There was no statistically significant difference between the two groups in any of the primary outcome measures. The osteopathic-treatment group required significantly less medication (analgesics, antiinflammatory agents, and muscle relaxants) (P< 0.001) and used less physical therapy (0.2 percent vs. 2.6 percent, P<0.05). More than 90 percent of the patients in both groups were satisfied with their care.

CONCLUSIONS
Osteopathic manual care and standard medical care have similar clinical results in patients with subacute low back pain. However, the use of medication is greater with standard care.

Again we are off topic - happy to start a thread if you wish.

uberalles

I was in a car accident years ago and thanks to a homeopath, well it could have been a different outcome. I was dazed after the crash and the usual rubber neckers gathered around. Then out from behind the crowd she shouted ...... step back! Im a homeopath, as she waded through the crowd. My compact fracture was treated with some parsley and I rubbed some T Tree oil on the protruding bone and that relieved the pain somewhat.

Who needs two legs anyway, if it wasnt gang green some something else would have made me loose that leg anyway.

To those of you who disagree – see pic attached.

ElWalrus

Pedro K wrote: »

****. I voted incorrectly. Didn't read the question fully. I meant to vote yes, they should cease subsidising homeopathic treatments.

It's just feckin water!

Crap, I did the same thing! Saw the word's 'Private Health Insurance' and 'Homeopathy' and just went no, no, no. Can't believe they are actually giving money for this.

The 'proponents' of this nonsense make 'Intelligent Design' apologists look normal.

kylith

Love2u wrote: »

Why would GP's recommend homeopathy? Sure if doctors would do this how would all the multi million national drug companies make their profits! It would go against doctors teachings.

Sometimes a person attends their GP with an illness which may be psychosomatic or they may be be a hypochondriac*. The doctor cannot give them actual medicine because they're not really ill, nor can a doctor prescribe a placebo, but they can recommend that a patient go to a complementary therapist. The act of taking a placebo, such as homoeopathy, can bring these people relief from the illness they believe they have, relief that a doctor can't because they're not allowed to prescribe sugar pills whereas homoeopaths can.

*A psychosomatic illness being a malady brought on by stress or other psychological factors, and hypochondria being a person who believes that they are ill when they are not.

MadsL

kylith wrote: »

Sometimes a person attends their GP with an illness which may be psychosomatic or they may be be a hypochondriac*. The doctor cannot give them actual medicine because they're not really ill, nor can a doctor prescribe a placebo, but they can recommend that a patient go to a complementary therapist. The act of taking a placebo, such as homoeopathy, can bring these people relief from the illness they believe they have, relief that a doctor can't because they're not allowed to prescribe sugar pills whereas homoeopaths can.

*A psychosomatic illness being a malady brought on by stress or other psychological factors, and hypochondria being a person who believes that they are ill when they are not.

Could we not just allow doctors to proscribe Placebonextrin* ?





*next month it is Makeuppynamoxidrin.

endacl

ElWalrus wrote: »

The 'proponents' of this nonsense make 'Intelligent Design' apologists look normal.

Ah, lets not get carried away now...

Jonny7

Love2u wrote: »

Sure if doctors would do this how would all the multi million national drug companies make their profits! It would go against doctors teachings.

A good doctor recommends someone eat healthy, have a balanced diet, take exercise, cut out smoking, etc before having to prescribe

They'll chose the treatment with the least side effects depending on severity and also the least cost (within reason)

Cienciano

MadsL wrote: »

But it is your money if you are a member of a health plan...how would you feel if your car insurer upped your premium to hand out "fuel efficiency magnets" that had no scientific evidence to prove they work?

Where can I buy these fuel efficiency magnets?

endacl

Cienciano wrote: »

Where can I buy these fuel efficiency magnets?

PM me. I'll give you the PayPal details. 50 yoyos each. How many are you looking for?

MadsL

Cienciano wrote: »

Where can I buy these fuel efficiency magnets?

You can't. Have to get them from your motor insurer. Were you not listening?

Ring Aviva.

endacl

MadsL wrote: »

You can't. Have to get them from your motor insurer. Were you not listening?

Ring Aviva.

Shurrup!!!!

I have him on the hook...

MadsL

endacl wrote: »

Shurrup!!!!

I have him on the hook...

Here's that website you wanted set up. Now, where's my money?

endacl

MadsL wrote: »

Here's that website you wanted set up. Now, where's my money?

Still waiting for those beans to sprout. You know the ones? That time I was on the way to market and I swopped a cow for them? As soon as they grow, I'll have your cash.

endacl

endacl wrote: »

"Ayurvedic treatment" is what did it for me.

There really aren't enough :rolleyes: on the internet to adequately express my :rolleyes: -ness.

There is some basis to Ayurvedic treatment though. Mainly relating to anti-oxidant levels in Withania Somnifera. It may help with diseases that are due to oxidants such as dementia/ Parkinson's disease.

endacl

Deleted User wrote: »

There is some basis to Ayurvedic treatment though. Mainly relating to anti-oxidant levels in Withania Somnifera. It may help with diseases that are due to oxidants such as dementia/ Parkinson's disease.

The studies do back this up. On the other hand, once the active ingredient is identified, isolated and synthesized, it won't be Ayurvedic treatment any more. It'll be medicine. Nothing new here. I've no problem with any insurance company paying a doctor for a prescription if his advice is to take aspirin. If the same company pay a self-defined bull5hit hippy-healer for his advice to take willow bark tea, well that's a different story. I've a problem with that.

Many herbal treatments have become medicine, once they were proved to work effectively and in a predictable manner. Those that haven't been proven, remain bollixology. If idiots want to go ahead and pay for it themselves that's their right. I don't think rational folks should have to foot any small part of the bill though.

Shenshen

Love2u wrote: »

Ah come on, your taking nonsense now! Don't come on here and talk about something you haven't a clue of. Show me the proof you pay 5€ for 20ml of water and its expected to cure a sore throat!? Prove it and we can have a mature conversation on the matter.

My best friend's father is a homeopath. He would charge €5 for a tiny bottle of water supposed to cure sore throats, laryngitis and infected tonsils.

kylith

MadsL wrote: »

Could we not just allow doctors to proscribe Placebonextrin* ?





*next month it is Makeuppynamoxidrin.

Sometimes they prescribe vitamin B12 injections. It doesn't really do anything but since it's definitely a vitamin injection it's not technically a placebo.

endacl wrote: »

Many herbal treatments have become medicine, once they were proved to work effectively and in a predictable manner. Those that haven't been proven, remain bollixology. If idiots want to go ahead and pay for it themselves that's their right. I don't think rational folks should have to foot any small part of the bill though.

"We tested it all and the stuff that worked became medicine. All the rest is a just a nice bowl of soup and some pot pourri" - Dara O'Briain.


Oh, and since we're talking about natural remedies and stuff: Traditional herbal remedy found to be wildly carcinogenic.

This is what happens when you're not required to perform checks on your 'medicines'; you don't know what potential side effects they might have. It's one of the reasons Big Pharma costs big bucks.

martinedwards

Anita Blow wrote: »

Had a patient in June with crippling Lower Back Pain after treatment by an Osteopath who needed full physio & medical treatment. Don't know what the osteopath did (I had barely heard of osteopathy before that) but the patient could not even roll over in bed himself due to the pain.

Never been to an Osteopath, but I have been to 3 Chiropractors.

I go in crippled, doubled over with massive lower back pain & ciatica

after 2 sessions 3 days apart I'm clear, able to walk, run, kayak and carry on my lfe for another 6 months until things start to go bad again

when I was sent to a Physio by the doctor after 20 years of being told that bed rest was the only cure for backache, they put me in traction (twice) for 20 mins and made it worse, next time they tried acupuncture (another loopy daft no science cure from a REAL physio) and at least it didn't make me any worse.

but suprise surprise, no improvement.

Homeopathy I have no time for.

Crystals are clearly a load of mumbo jumbo

but several Chiropractors did ME a load of good.

Shenshen

kylith wrote: »

Sometimes they prescribe vitamin B12 injections. It doesn't really do anything but since it's definitely a vitamin injection it's not technically a placebo.


"We tested it all and the stuff that worked became medicine. All the rest is a just a nice bowl of soup and some pot pourri" - Dara O'Briain.


Oh, and since we're talking about natural remedies and stuff: Traditional herbal remedy found to be wildly carcinogenic.

This is what happens when you're not required to perform checks on your 'medicines'; you don't know what potential side effects they might have. It's one of the reasons Big Pharma costs big bucks.

The notion that because it's been used for hundreds or thousands of years must automatically mean that it's definitely better than a newly-discovered compound always makes me want to bang my head against the wall.

Hundreds and thousands of years ago, people would die of the common cold. But they obviously knew so much more about the healing power of nature than we do today.

And as for homeopathy : Hahnemann developed this on the by now long-outdated principle of curing like with like. So if you have a condition that shows the same symptoms as arsenic poisoning, his reasoning was that arsenic would cure that.
If he hadn't started to water it down to the point where there simply was no arsenic left in his preparations, we would long have assigned his ideas to the "general quackery and dangerous frauds" section of the medical libraries.
But since all homeopathy deals in today is water and sugar, there "must be something to it".

Hoop66

Homeopathy is very good for dehydration, mind.

I'm in two minds re: Chiropractic. It works very well for the problems I have with my back, and that's all I'm looking for. I'm not so sure that it's any good for anything else, kidney/liver problems for instance.

I have a friend who's a cranial osteopath, and as far as I can see that's complete BS. Healing via controlling the "tides" of cranial fluid?

kylith

Hoop66 wrote: »

I'm in two minds re: Chiropractic. It works very well for the problems I have with my back, and that's all I'm looking for. I'm not so sure that it's any good for anything else, kidney/liver problems for instance.

I'm in two minds about it too. I know my mother went for a session a few years ago and got great relief, on the other hand there does seem to be a lot of scope for BS with it.

I have a friend who's a cranial osteopath, and as far as I can see that's complete BS. Healing via controlling the "tides" of cranial fluid?

Now that sounds like bunkum of the highest order. Cranial tides? Seriously?

lazygal

I just read on another forum that one poster swears by the aloe vera gels she drank. Took seven months to clear her psoriasis, mind, but by god the stuff works. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

kylith

lazygal wrote: »

I just read on another forum that one poster swears by the aloe vera gels she drank. Took seven months to clear her psoriasis, mind, but by god the stuff works. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Those aloe drinks you can get are amazing. I usually use them to cure thirst though.

Tiddlypeeps

Hoop66 wrote: »

I have a friend who's a cranial osteopath, and as far as I can see that's complete BS. Healing via controlling the "tides" of cranial fluid?

It's hilariously bad! I'm not even exaggerating when I say I went to one and he spent 30 minutes doing nothing other than tapping lightly on my head. Quackery of the highest order.

Love2u

martinedwards wrote: »

Never been to an Osteopath, but I have been to 3 Chiropractors.

I go in crippled, doubled over with massive lower back pain & ciatica

after 2 sessions 3 days apart I'm clear, able to walk, run, kayak and carry on my lfe for another 6 months until things start to go bad again

when I was sent to a Physio by the doctor after 20 years of being told that bed rest was the only cure for backache, they put me in traction (twice) for 20 mins and made it worse, next time they tried acupuncture (another loopy daft no science cure from a REAL physio) and at least it didn't make me any worse.

but suprise surprise, no improvement.

Homeopathy I have no time for.

Crystals are clearly a load of mumbo jumbo

but several Chiropractors did ME a load of good.

have had great experiences with chiropractors, and I'd much rather go that route then take buckets of prescription drugs from the doctor which doesn't help my situation. I'm glad insurers are covering chiropractors. People should have the right to seek whatever treatment they want without a gun being hell to their head.

Shenshen

Love2u wrote: »

have had great experiences with chiropractors, and I'd much rather go that route then take buckets of prescription drugs from the doctor which doesn't help my situation. I'm glad insurers are covering chiropractors. People should have the right to seek whatever treatment they want without a gun being hell to their head.

A gun? Hardly.
The only thing that should be held in front of their faces would be the bill.

It would massively help my current situation if I could take 2 weeks of work and go on a cruise around the Caribbean, but I don't expect my insurance to cover the costs.

seamus

Hoop66 wrote: »

I'm in two minds re: Chiropractic. It works very well for the problems I have with my back, and that's all I'm looking for. I'm not so sure that it's any good for anything else, kidney/liver problems for instance.

That's because there are two sides to chiropractic. There's the physical, scientifically testable side which says that a lot of various pains and ills, physical and mental can be attributed to problems with your back.
Anyone who's had back problems can probably attest to the effect that back pain can have not only in specific terms, but also in terms of how you generally feel. Those with back problems will report months of feeling run down, melancholic, demotivated, etc.

Then there's the bull**** side of chiropracty which goes on about spiritual wellbeing linking problems with your back to your mental health and all sorts of other airy-fairy nonsense. This is in fact the foundation of chiropracty, the scientific side only came in later on when practitioners founds that contorting people's bodies when you haven't a clue what you're doing, tends to make things much worse.

In the US it's much better respected primarily because they tend to take a more medical approach to it and because the main associations insist that their members are formally accredited. But they're still seen as backstreet med-school dropouts by most of the population.
Here in Europe, the term "Chiropractor" is not protected by law, so any idiot can set up a practice and perform "adjustments" with zero training or knowledge. Hence why they're viewed with far more suspicion.

kylith

When you say 'various pains and ills, physical and mental can be attributed to problems with your back' can you back that up at all? A person who would calls themselves a doctor and claim that mental problems are caused by a bad back sounds like a quack of the worst kind to me. What kind of mental problems are we talking about here?

AnonoBoy

Homoerotic therapies would have more effect on me than homeopathic therapies.

Canis Lupus

kylith wrote: »

When you say 'various pains and ills, physical and mental can be attributed to problems with your back' can you back that up at all? A person who would calls themselves a doctor and claim that mental problems are caused by a bad back sounds like a quack of the worst kind to me. What kind of mental problems are we talking about here?

I imagine a bad back would quickly depress the f*ck out of you to start with, depending on the severity.

kylith

Canis Lupus wrote: »

I imagine a bad back would quickly depress the f*ck out of you to start with, depending on the severity.

Depression and irritability, no doubt, but what other mental problems could be caused by a bad back? It's unlikely to influence schizophrenia, for example.

endacl

Love2u wrote: »

have had great experiences with chiropractors, and I'd much rather go that route then take buckets of prescription drugs from the doctor which doesn't help my situation. I'm glad insurers are covering chiropractors. People should have the right to seek whatever treatment they want without a gun being hell to their head.

Still missing the point, eh?

TwoShedsJackson

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Homoerotic therapies would have more effect on me than homeopathic therapies.

And could be more fun too.

seamus

kylith wrote: »

When you say 'various pains and ills, physical and mental can be attributed to problems with your back' can you back that up at all? A person who would calls themselves a doctor and claim that mental problems are caused by a bad back sounds like a quack of the worst kind to me. What kind of mental problems are we talking about here?

Bad wording on my part, I was just really stating what the testable side of chiropracty believes, not that I necessarily agree with it. Chiropractic principles would state that mental illnesses can be cured by screwing around with someone's posture.

You could be guaranteed that chronic back pain could seriously affect one's mood, which of course would be an aggravating factor in a number of mental illnesses, but not a causal one.

I Heart Internet

My only contribution to this thread is to say that the third option in the poll is one of the funniest things I've seen in a while

AnonoBoy

Saw this last night on Channel 4 - doc about a woman who didn't want her son to have chemotherapy to treat his brain tumour and had to be forced by the courts to do it to save his life. She just wanted to use alternative remedies and oxygen chambers.

Honestly she seems like she's completely mental in it, maybe the seriousness of her son's condition got too much for her.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/youre-killing-my-son-mum-on-the-run/4od

Love2u

Jonny7 wrote: »

A good doctor recommends someone eat healthy, have a balanced diet, take exercise, cut out smoking, etc before having to prescribe

They'll chose the treatment with the least side effects depending on severity and also the least cost (within reason)

I've yet to hear a doctor tell me or anyone I know to eat healthy, balanced diet, exercise, stop smoking.......... Sure most doctors I see are obese, smokers, drinkers...., not exactly a good advertisement for good health.

Love2u

Shenshen wrote: »

A gun? Hardly.
The only thing that should be held in front of their faces would be the bill.

It would massively help my current situation if I could take 2 weeks of work and go on a cruise around the Caribbean, but I don't expect my insurance to cover the costs.

insurance to cover the costs.[/quote]

It massively helped me going to a chiropractor after doctors and hospitals could not find a cure or solution for me, they seem only to want to poison my body with drugs which doesn't sort the problem. I lost out on hundreds of hard earned cash going to doctors and having to pay for scans etc..... If you find something that works for you and your body responds great to it I don't see the problem. People who post attack and smart messages because someone seeks help from anyone but a doctor is to say the Least Ignorant.

Shenshen

Love2u wrote: »

It massively helped me going to a chiropractor after doctors and hospitals could not find a cure or solution for me, they seem only to want to poison my body with drugs which doesn't sort the problem. I lost out on hundreds of hard earned cash going to doctors and having to pay for scans etc..... If you find something that works for you and your body responds great to it I don't see the problem. People who post attack and smart messages because someone seeks help from anyone but a doctor is to say the Least Ignorant.

I've no problem with you seeking help from whomever you wish, as long as it's only your own health you're gambling and as long as you don't expect other people to pay for it.

martinedwards

kylith wrote: »

Depression and irritability, no doubt, but what other mental problems could be caused by a bad back? It's unlikely to influence schizophrenia, for example.

hmmmmm

I'm in two minds about that......

Love2u

Shenshen wrote: »

I've no problem with you seeking help from whomever you wish, as long as it's only your own health you're gambling and as long as you don't expect other people to pay for it.

Oh, so ill pay for your health insurance but you won't pay for mine!!?? I'm glad that most Insurance companies do cover chiropracters, therefore the debate is irrelevant. And to say I'm gambling my health is crazy, how many people's health has been comprised lately at the hands of hospitals.

Love2u

endacl wrote: »

Still missing the point, eh?

"Your" missing the point, you see insurance companies DO cover homeopath so really the debate is irrelevant.

Shenshen

Love2u wrote: »

Oh, so ill pay for your health insurance but you won't pay for mine!!?? I'm glad that most Insurance companies do cover chiropracters, therefore the debate is irrelevant. And to say I'm gambling my health is crazy, how many people's health has been comprised lately at the hands of hospitals.

No, I'll pay for your health insurance. I just don't think it's fair to ask me to pay for your non-medical treatments.
As I said, a nice 2 week Caribbean cruise would do my mental and physical health a world of good, but I don't expect to get that paid for by others.

I LOVE that argument about hospitals endangering people's health, I really do. How many people's lives were saved by doctors and hospitals lately?
Before the advent of modern medicine, how many people died and suffered from what are now completely preventable and easily curable illnesses?
Hahnemann and his aqua-fetishism didn't make a dent in those numbers.

Love2u

Shenshen wrote: »

No, I'll pay for your health insurance. I just don't think it's fair to ask me to pay for your non-medical treatments.
As I said, a nice 2 week Caribbean cruise would do my mental and physical health a world of good, but I don't expect to get that paid for by others.

I LOVE that argument about hospitals endangering people's health, I really do. How many people's lives were saved by doctors and hospitals lately?
Before the advent of modern medicine, how many people died and suffered from what are now completely preventable and easily curable illnesses?
Hahnemann and his aqua-fetishism didn't make a dent in those numbers.

As I stated previously doctors or hospitals could not help me and they left me with a big bill. I do understand that doctors can also help save lives and when it comes to homeopath people need to use common sence. When you want to be free from pain you will try anything that might work and fortunately the chiropractor worked for me. I'm working and I'm able to do exercise without being in constant pain.

Bringing your two 2 week Caribbean cruise into the equation only shows me how ignorant you are as a person.

Like I said insurance companies do cover homeopath and I'm delighted they do. Just for the record I only use chiropractors so don't give me your sugar water rubbish.

kylith

Love2u wrote: »

Oh, so ill pay for your health insurance but you won't pay for mine!!?? I'm glad that most Insurance companies do cover chiropracters, therefore the debate is irrelevant. And to say I'm gambling my health is crazy, how many people's health has been comprised lately at the hands of hospitals.

Check out www.whatstheharm.net for a few people who've had their health compromised, or ruined, or who've been killed by not going to hospital.

Seriously; if it weren't for modern medicine I'd be dead. You'd probably be dead. A large chunk of the population would have been killed in childhood by things we now cure with a week's worth of antibiotics. 'Alternative' medicine at its best does nothing and at its worst kills people.

Hoop66

Love2u wrote: »

Bringing your two 2 week Caribbean cruise into the equation only shows me how ignorant you are as a person.

Like I said insurance companies do cover homeopath and I'm delighted they do. Just for the record I only use chiropractors so don't give me your sugar water rubbish.

Maybe try some homeopathic valium for your anger issues?

Shenshen

Love2u wrote: »

As I stated previously doctors or hospitals could not help me and they left me with a big bill. I do understand that doctors can also help save lives and when it comes to homeopath people need to use common sence. When you want to be free from pain you will try anything that might work and fortunately the chiropractor worked for me. I'm working and I'm able to do exercise without being in constant pain.

Bringing your two 2 week Caribbean cruise into the equation only shows me how ignorant you are as a person.

Like I said insurance companies do cover homeopath and I'm delighted they do. Just for the record I only use chiropractors so don't give me your sugar water rubbish.

Any argument at all that you have to bring forward, or are you happy with just repeating how ignorant I am in every one of your posts?

Why should the insurance pay for a non-medical treatment for you, be it homeopathic (which this thread is incidentally about), a chiroprator or a faith healer, but not for me?
In my opinion, the purpose of health insurance is to cover medical costs, not to facilitate lifestyle choices.