Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread III

RuggieBear

Other thread getting too big

...continued from here

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

No, we need variety, our backline isn't good enough to forget about the corners.

What sort of a gameplan would you employ? Specifically now, not just kick it to the corner and use our backs

molloyjh

who_me wrote: »

It's kind of bizarre that you highlight how weak Munster's pool was, neglect to mention Saracens were in the same pool, and use that as proof that Saracens are ahead of Munster?

Did I say Saracens were ahead of Munster, or did I say there wasn't much between them? Clue: The answer is in the post you quoted.

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I wasn't taking one game out of isolation, just how the campaign ended.

The pool was hardly easy and certainly not the easiest in the comp. we won 4/6 and racked up enough tries to see us through. I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that Munster got out of their group due to it being "easy". I would certainly give them more credit than that.

And while one player can make an impact in a game, they can't win it single handily . Munster always had a couple of big games in them from their showing in the pool games.

The pool was easy. To say it wasn't is simply untrue. Edinburgh would have had a hard time scoring in a brothel they were so bad. They didn't score a single point in the first 2 rounds. Their points difference was only marginally better than Zebre, they scored less tries (and points overall) than Zebre and their tries scored:conceded ratio was actually worse than Zebre. They scored a pathetic 36 points in total in the pool stages. At least Zebre came away with 1 LBP, Edinburgh got literally nothing. Both Saracens and Munster had bonus point wins home and away against them.

Racing in the final round didn't give a fiddlers, sent over a weakened side and didn't bother really. So between those 2 sides there were 3 BP wins served up on a platter. Any pool where you can get those 15 points as easily as Munster did has to qualify as an easy pool.

Rightwing

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

What sort of a gameplan would you employ? Specifically now, not just kick it to the corner and use our backs

I'll trust Penney, the man knows a lot more than I do. I was critical of him at the start, but he really came into his own towards the end of last season.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

I'll trust Penney, the man knows a lot more than I do. I was critical of him at the start, but he really came into his own towards the end of last season.

What do you think he started doing to get it right?

Rightwing

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

What do you think he started doing to get it right?

Maybe he just needed time, a bit like Rodgers at Liverpool, both seemed to struggle at first... but definitely improved as the season went on.

Micky Dolenz

@ Buer.

I suppose it will come down to consistency all right. All the good players have it. I can only hope that will come when he is playing a lot. I can only assume he has been chomping at the bit to get the 10 shirt for himself.

I just pray he stays as injury free as ROG managed to.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

Maybe he just needed time, a bit like Rodgers at Liverpool, both seemed to struggle at first... but definitely improved as the season went on.

ya but you said Munster improved toward the end of the season. I don't really think that improvement was Penny, more so POC coming back into the side and a number of players (TOD,POM, LLL, Downey) playing and being available

You seem to be implying it was down to changes Penny made, just wondering if you could explain what those are?

Micky Dolenz

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

ya but you said Munster improved toward the end of the season. I don't really think that improvement was Penny, more so POC coming back into the side and a number of players (TOD,POM, LLL, Downey) playing and being available

You seem to be implying it was down to changes Penny made, just wondering if you could explain what those are?

Ah here, Playing the locks on the wings was a stroke of genius in fairness.

Rightwing

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

ya but you said Munster improved toward the end of the season. I don't really think that improvement was Penny, more so POC coming back into the side and a number of players (TOD,POM, LLL, Downey) playing and being available

You seem to be implying it was down to changes Penny made, just wondering if you could explain what those are?

Absolutely, things like POC coming back helped him hugely, as Tescos say ,,'every little helps'.

former legend

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

What do you think he started doing to get it right?

+1 on that (if it's possible to agree with a question...)

Rightwing wrote: »

Maybe he just needed time, a bit like Rodgers at Liverpool, both seemed to struggle at first... but definitely improved as the season went on.

Munster were horrendous towards the end of last season. The away game to Glasgow? A 34-10 defeat in Treviso? Scraping home against Zebre on the last day?

I'm sorry to be so negative but the HC performances against Clermont and especially against Quins papered over some pretty large cracks, IMO.

Is it too simplistic to say that POC was the difference?

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Ah here, Playing the locks on the wings was a stroke of genius in fairness.

Didn't stop in the knockout stages.

Munster played slightly differently in terms of gameplan in those games, ROG played more territory and our forwards were more direct for example

molloyjh

Rightwing wrote: »

Maybe he just needed time, a bit like Rodgers at Liverpool, both seemed to struggle at first... but definitely improved as the season went on.

Did he really improve as the season went on? The week before the Quins game ye were beaten badly by a Glasgow side than put over 50 points on the board. Between the HEC QF and SF you lost to Leinster and Dragons. It seems to me that the difference between Munster in the Quins and Clermont games compared to all other games was POC, and nothing that Penney was bringing to the table.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

Absolutely, things like POC coming back helped him hugely, as Tescos say ,,'every little helps'.

Ya but you're just ignoring my question. What did Penny get right at the end of the season?>

.ak

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Ya but you're just ignoring my question. What did Penny get right at the end of the season?>

His interviews?

Rightwing

But the league was lost cause, I wouldn't read too much into those performances,,,like against Leinster, we lost it, but it was a very competitive game.

Rightwing

.ak wrote: »

His interviews?

His interviews were good, no question about that.

Micky Dolenz

former legend wrote: »

+1 on that (if it's possible to agree with a question...)



Munster were horrendous towards the end of last season. The away game to Glasgow? A 34-10 defeat in Treviso? Scraping home against Zebre on the last day?

I'm sorry to be so negative but the HC performances against Clermont and especially against Quins papered over some pretty large cracks, IMO.

Is it too simplistic to say that POC was the difference?

What away game to Glasgow?

Not get the memo about never mentioning that ever again?

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

But the league was lost cause, I wouldn't read too much into those performances,,,like against Leinster, we lost it, but it was a very competitive game.

Again, you said Penny improved Munster by the end of the season, how? What exactly did he do

I don't think the league being over is any excuse for nearly losing to the worst side in it by a country mile

Fireball07

I'm not overly worried about our performances at the end of the season, when compared with the Heineken Cup ones. Last season was a disappointing league season, but I have faith we'll be improved this year.


In fairness to ROG, he wasn't great for most of last season but he really upped it towards the end..... and did actually get our backline moving eventually. I don't think he'll be as big a loss as some people were saying earlier.

jm08

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

What sort of a gameplan would you employ? Specifically now, not just kick it to the corner and use our backs

Isn't the gameplan that the backs handle the ball as much as the forwards?

How the backs have faired:

Zebo 40+8 starts - 20 tries
Doug Howlett 111+3 - 35 tries

Luke Fitz 93+15 - 26 tries
Nacewa 120+6 - 24 tries.

Trimble 158+4 - 54 tries
Bowe 99+6 - 40 tries

Zebo was doing well outside ROG alright - a try every second game!

I hear Sexton was practising his grubber shots into the corner for a back to fall onto it against Toulon!

Rightwing

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Again, you said Penny improved Munster by the end of the season, how? What exactly did he do

I don't think the league being over is any excuse for nearly losing to the worst side in it by a country mile

It's no escuse, but it's all about prioritising.

Penney adopted a more forward orientated game, just as I was hoping he would.

Micky Dolenz

The season can't start soon enough.

molloyjh

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Again, you said Penny improved Munster by the end of the season, how? What exactly did he do

I don't think the league being over is any excuse for nearly losing to the worst side in it by a country mile

Not to mention actually losing to the second worst side... :P

It certainly seemed to me that the return of POC was the catalyst for the improved performances. Whether that's because he took charge of what was happening on the pitch when that sort of leadership had been missing (doubtful), or whether he for all intents and purposes overrode the game plan that had not been working and got Munster back playing a far more direct game I'm not sure.

Risteard

Munster played a pretty direct and forward orientated game for most of the HC. Both Saracens games and Edinburgh away for example.

Micky Dolenz

molloyjh wrote: »

Not to mention actually losing to the second worst side... :P

It certainly seemed to me that the return of POC was the catalyst for the improved performances. Whether that's because he took charge of what was happening on the pitch when that sort of leadership had been missing (doubtful), or whether he for all intents and purposes overrode the game plan that had not been working and got Munster back playing a far more direct game I'm not sure.

You seem to be forgetting the game that I won't mention. POC, while he is important, Munster rugby is bigger than any player or even a hub of players.

Also, Munster isn't the only team to be beaten by "the second worst side....:p"

jm08

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Ya but you're just ignoring my question. What did Penny get right at the end of the season?>

I would think he has to be admired for keeping his head when all about him were losing it. He remained positive all along and built a very young and confident team. Look at how Killer, Murray, TOD, Sherry, POM have all blossomed in the last year.

Penney deserves a lot of credit for that.

.ak

Rightwing wrote: »

His interviews were good, no question about that.

Well not really, but they certainly got better!

former legend

Rightwing wrote: »

But the league was lost cause, I wouldn't read too much into those performances,,,like against Leinster, we lost it, but it was a very competitive game.

But they lost. At home. To Leinster. Again.

Is it enough to be "competitive" against your arch rival in what used to be the most impenetrable home ground in Europe?

The league was a lost cause because they were so poor. Munster played 10 league games after Christmas; won three, drew one, lost six.

So I'd question whether there was any improvement at all, that's all I'm saying

molloyjh

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

You seem to be forgetting the game that I won't mention. POC, while he is important, Munster rugby is bigger than any player or even a hub of players.

Also, Munster isn't the only team to be beaten by "the second worst side....:p"

Well if that is the case then maybe you could actually articulate exactly what it was the Penney did differently at the latter part of the season that was so improved (despite the results in the Pro12 games in the second half of the season). You know, the question Ugo has been trying to get an answer to for the best part of the afternoon.

Rightwing

former legend wrote: »

But they lost. At home. To Leinster. Again.

Is it enough to be "competitive" against your arch rival in what used to be the most impenetrable home ground in Europe?

The league was a lost cause because they were so poor. Munster played 10 league games after Christmas; won three, drew one, lost six.

So I'd question whether there was any improvement at all, that's all I'm saying

The performances were there against the big teams. That's the main thing for me. But to answer your question, time will tell I suppose.

Micky Dolenz

molloyjh wrote: »

Well if that is the case then maybe you could actually articulate exactly what it was the Penney did differently at the latter part of the season that was so improved (despite the results in the Pro12 games in the second half of the season). You know, the question Ugo has been trying to get an answer to for the best part of the afternoon.

I'm quite sure Ugo is not addressing me. you know.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

The performances were there against the big teams. That's the main thing for me. But to answer your question, time will tell I suppose.

You realise we only beat Quins? A Quins team who were hugely overhyped before we played them

What big teams did we perform against? Losing to Leinster at home isn't a performance either

Rightwing

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

You realise we only beat Quins? A Quins team who were hugely overhyped before we played them

What big teams did we perform against? Losing to Leinster at home isn't a performance either

Quins were top seeds. No mean feat trouncing them at home.

Rattled Clermont so badly, they got jitters for the rest of the season and ended up with nought.

jm08

former legend wrote: »

But they lost. At home. To Leinster. Again.

Is it enough to be "competitive" against your arch rival in what used to be the most impenetrable home ground in Europe?

The league was a lost cause because they were so poor. Munster played 10 league games after Christmas; won three, drew one, lost six.

So I'd question whether there was any improvement at all, that's all I'm saying

No Earls or ROG - Archer & Killer up against Ross & Healy! Not sure Munster were taking the game as seriously as you think they should !

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

Quins were top seeds. No mean feat trouncing them at home.

Rattled Clermont so badly, they got jitters for the rest of the season and ended up with nought.

Quins were top seeds because they had Zebre/Connacht and Biarritz in their group.

Again, while we gave Clermont a run, we didn't beat them.

So I ask, again, what performances have we put in against big sides?

Rightwing

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Quins were top seeds because they had Zebre/Connacht and Biarritz in their group.

Again, while we gave Clermont a run, we didn't beat them.

So I ask, again, what performances have we put in against big sides?

A performance and a win aren't mutually exclusive. So to lose away to Clermont can be called a performance,,,and a damn good one at that.

Quins and to a lesser extent leinster.

Podge_irl

Rightwing wrote: »

Quins were top seeds. No mean feat trouncing them at home.

Rattled Clermont so badly, they got jitters for the rest of the season and ended up with nought.

I don't think Clermont needed Munster's help to get the jitters in knockout rugby.

blood stone

Foxtrol

Rightwing wrote: »

Quins were top seeds. No mean feat trouncing them at home.

Rattled Clermont so badly, they got jitters for the rest of the season and ended up with nought.

Debatable how much was caused by Munster and how much was internal problems after years of issues, I’d say the latter was much more important.

Any team can go on a cup run when forces align the right way, the Edinburgh HC run in the previous season with poor league form bear some similarities with Munster of last year. Obviously not saying Munster are going to nosedive like the Scots have but I wouldn’t read too much into improvements based on a couple of once off performances in the cup, apart from the common known fact that Munster can beat anyone on a given day.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Jesus, serious revisionism going on regarding our loss to Leinster anyway

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

Quins were top seeds. No mean feat trouncing them at home.

Rattled Clermont so badly, they got jitters for the rest of the season and ended up with nought.

So two of the three "big performances against big sides" ended in defeat?

Rightwing

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

So two of the three "big performances against big sides" ended in defeat?

Absolutely.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

Absolutely.

We're not exactly putting in many big performances so are we? And even when we are (according to you btw, the Leinster performance was by no means a big one) we're losing most of them

thomond2006

John Hayes? Anyone?

Rightwing

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

We're not exactly putting in many big performances so are we? And even when we are (according to you btw, the Leinster performance was by no means a big one) we're losing most of them

Give Penney time and we will see. He deserves his 2 years.

Fireball07

thomond2006 wrote: »

John Hayes? Anyone?

Good player, pity he fcuked off first chance he could get :P

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

Debatable how much was caused by Munster and how much was internal problems after years of issues, I’d say the latter was much more important.

Any team can go on a cup run when forces align the right way, the Edinburgh HC run in the previous season with poor league form bear some similarities with Munster of last year. Obviously not saying Munster are going to nosedive like the Scots have but I wouldn’t read too much into improvements based on a couple of once off performances in the cup, apart from the common known fact that Munster can beat anyone on a given day.

Is this the same Clermont that beat Leinster in the Aviva a few months earlier which meant that Leinster went into the Amlin Cup? Munster must be a lucky team then as all these internal problems to suddenly emerge as soon as Munster headed down there.

By the way, Edinburgh beat Toulouse in Edinburgh - a heck of a difference to travelling down to the south of France. Toulouse, like most French teams, are poor travellers.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

Give Penney time and we will see. He deserves his 2 years.

Ya he does. But that doesn't mean you were right in saying this:

Rightwing wrote: »

The performances were there against the big teams. That's the main thing for me. But to answer your question, time will tell I suppose.

If that was true we would have not had to rely on a best runners up spot in the HC, we would have finally beaten Leinster again, and we would have been more competitive in the rabo

jm08

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Ya he does. But that doesn't mean you were right in saying this:

If that was true we would have not had to rely on a best runners up spot in the HC, we would have finally beaten Leinster again, and we would have been more competitive in the rabo

There was a time when there was question marks over whether Munster would qualify for Europe if they were to depend on league form. Its only in recent years (McGahan) that Munster have really bothered with the league. I remember Munster playing Leinster in a league game in 2008 in a gale force wind the week before a HCup match and Munster were throwing the ball around as if they never heard of up the jumper. Munster lost to Leinster (10-3), but the following week they won their away game against the Scarlets.

RE: Munster not bothering with the league.

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/table.php?includeref=11189&season=2013-2014

Try any of the years since the inception.

Make up your own mind.