Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread III

Rightwing

Grimebox wrote: »

I haven't really followed this tournaments formation so I wouldn't know about the politics. How has the money spoiled things?

Is there anything wrong with the qualification and format? It looks more competitive to me if anything by reducing numbers and forcing more difficult qualifications on the Pro12 teams

It's definitely more competitive, that should favour big teams with big budgets, slowing eroding the Irish, and they won't even know it.

Rightwing

umop.episdn wrote: »

I for one am looking forward to this group, huge upheaval at Clermont for next season, Sarries are strong, but very beatable & imo, we'll be a stronger unit next season with our new signings.
I could see the top 3 sides all dropping points away, so our home bp wins are going to be very important.

I agree, tough groups and easy groups, we can make too much out of it.

It's things like coin tosses for semifinals they should be eliminating.

irishbucsfan

Rightwing wrote: »

I agree, tough groups and easy groups, we can make too much out of it.

It's things like coin tosses for semifinals they should be eliminating.

There was never a coin toss for any semi final.

But I don't really think I want to get involved in this!

Riskymove

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If they win their home games I don't think they'll need to beat either away. .

it's not that clear cut

losing two games makes getting at least second difficult (unless you are getting BP wins against the better teams which is unlikely)

you'd need one of the other two to do a double over the other

Riskymove

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There was never a coin toss for any semi final.

But I don't really think I want to get involved in this!

I think he just means the open draw for home semis which is a virtual coin-toss....pure luck not based on anything

Mahatma Geansai

thomond2006 wrote: »

Whether it's a dig or not (it's not), it's a fact! That home loss to Glasgow cost us a Tier 1 spot (hindsight is 20/20 vision of course etc).

A lot will depend on the order of matches. Ideally we would start with a home match against Saracens or Clermont with a trip to Sale. Get two wins under the belt (hopefully 9 points) and go from there.

Munster did really fall apart towards the end of the season alright. We had the table all but wrapped up until a few terrible performances coupled with two refereeing disasters. Former Legend is forgetting how different things could have been had Allain Rolland not been there to give his old side the assist against Munster.

Rightwing

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There was never a coin toss for any semi final.

But I don't really think I want to get involved in this!

You may be just getting a little confused with the CL home and away system, which I'd deem a little fairer. Or else, possibly splitting hairs.

Mahatma Geansai

Its an awful group, and one you'd imagine the organisers wanted to avoid. It does them no good having three of the best four teams in Europe battling it out in the group stages.

irishbucsfan

Riskymove wrote: »

I think he just means the open draw for home semis which is a virtual coin-toss....pure luck not based on anything

It was either that or use pool seedings to decide. They decided the pools were so uneven that it would be unfair to allow pool seedings to decide home advantage and that it should be randomised. Which it was.

I assumed by his use of "coin toss" in quotations that he was implying it was rigged against Munster. But of course it was a live draw on television and Munster got a home semi final just a few years ago.

I understand why they made it random, I think it would be fine either way. They could base it on pool seedings now, but even now some pools are tougher than others, although not to the same extent thanks to the changes.

Riskymove

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Its an awful group, and one you'd imagine the organisers wanted to avoid. It does them no good having three of the best four teams in Europe battling it out in the group stages.

I disagree

I think they'll be loving the drama and ratings...it'll be hyped up on TV no end

The Munster and Ulster pools will be the prime targets for TV

Rightwing

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Its an awful group, and one you'd imagine the organisers wanted to avoid. It does them no good having three of the best four teams in Europe battling it out in the group stages.

It looks a bit silly alright, but these tough groups, teams will take points everyone. Def an away q/f though.

irishbucsfan

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Its an awful group, and one you'd imagine the organisers wanted to avoid. It does them no good having three of the best four teams in Europe battling it out in the group stages.

If they were three of the best teams in Europe, then one shouldn't have let themselves end up in Tier 2 and the other in Tier 3, surely?

Swan Curry

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Munster did really fall apart towards the end of the season alright. We had the table all but wrapped up until a few terrible performances coupled with two refereeing disasters. Former Legend is forgetting how different things could have been had Allain Rolland not been there to give his old side the assist against Munster.

I don't think he's forgetting anything since that didn't happen.

Riskymove

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It was either that or use pool seedings to decide.

indeed and either way Munster would have been away to Toulon

however, over the years Pool seedings may have been seen to be fairer given how badly Munster made out in the random draws

CatFromHue

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Munster did really fall apart towards the end of the season alright. We had the table all but wrapped up until a few terrible performances coupled with two refereeing disasters. Former Legend is forgetting how different things could have been had Allain Rolland not been there to give his old side the assist against Munster.

Munster were doing very well for the first part of the season but you could argue that they'd slightly easier fixtures than their competitors and that their run in was slightly harder. I suppose it's easier to scape goat Rolland though :pac:

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Its an awful group, and one you'd imagine the organisers wanted to avoid. It does them no good having three of the best four teams in Europe battling it out in the group stages.

It makes the group stage alot more interesting for fans and even neutrals.

Rightwing

CatFromHue wrote: »

Munster were doing very well for the first part of the season but you could argue that they'd slightly easier fixtures than their competitors and that their run in was slightly harder. I suppose it's easier to scape goat Rolland though :pac:



It makes the group stage alot more interesting for fans and even neutrals.

I think the groups were always very interesting, down to the last minute stuff. Even when a group was won, like this season, everything was to play for in terms of home q/f etc.

CatFromHue

I think it's always good to have one group of death as it really adds spice to the group stages though.

Rightwing

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think it's always good to have one group of death as it really adds spice to the group stages though.

Ulster's group looks just as hard I think, if not harder.

CatFromHue

Yeah it does so Ulster and Munster's group would be getting the better TV slots than the Northampton group I'd say. Thomond or Kingspan should get at least 1 of not 2 Sat 6pm KO's and no Sunday 1pm KO's.

Riskymove

Rightwing wrote: »

It looks a bit silly alright, but these tough groups, teams will take points everyone. Def an away q/f though.

Lads

I tell ya what, why don't we start a petition to have us put in the Amlin instead so we can have "easy" games

maybe we can swap with Connacht whose supporters would might be happier

thomond2006

Can us Munster supporters honestly complain about this after the group we got last season?

I feel for Leicester and Ulster, Leicester in particular seem to get horror groups every year.

Rightwing

Riskymove wrote: »

Lads

I tell ya what, why don't we start a petition to have us put in the Amlin instead so we can have "easy" games

maybe we can swap with Connacht whose supporters would might be happier

I'm not complaining about out group. Ulster's is probably tougher. What I'd like changed is the semi final situation. An absolute joke.

Riskymove

Rightwing wrote: »

What I'd like changed is the semi final situation. An absolute joke.

changed to what?

Rightwing

Riskymove wrote: »

changed to what?

home and away.

Riskymove

Rightwing wrote: »

home and away.

while it's probably the fairest an extra weekend is tough to fit into the schedule tbh


the recent playoff for the ERC was certainly an exciting two legs

CIARAN_BOYLE

Rightwing wrote: »

home and away.

Home and away semis sounds like a horrible solution to me.

irishbucsfan

Rightwing wrote: »

home and away.

Firstly, home and away does not work in rugby. And the competitions which use it have proven that imo. It works in soccer just about, but rugby scoring does not suit it due to how dependent on conditions scores can be.

Secondly, there is absolutely no space in the calendar for it. It's a poor solution to the problem.

Riskymove

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Home and away semis sounds like a horrible solution to me.

its catch 22

if we beat Toulon away by a point and then lost at home I'd be fairly sick

Riskymove

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's a poor solution to the problem.

tbh taking all the circumstances into account a neutral or pre-determined venue is probably best for fairness if not for fans

former legend

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Home and away semis sounds like a horrible solution to me.

I don't think anyone seriously wants that (because it's an awful, awful idea), but it doesn't even solve the problem, since you still have to toss a coin/draw lots etc to decide the order of the games. The team who is at home in the second leg will have the advantage so the fauxtrage at "unfair" coin tosses will continue.

Rightwing

Riskymove wrote: »

its catch 22

if we beat Toulon away by a point and then lost at home I'd be fairly sick

It's fairer though, look at chelsea this season, went away to athletico, drew 0-0 and lost at home. Can have no complaints in that situation.

irishbucsfan

Riskymove wrote: »

tbh taking all the circumstances into account a neutral or pre-determined venue is probably best for fairness if not for fans

I don't think that would work if you end up with empty stadiums for semi finals.

For me they should either carry pool seedings through to the semi-finals or else draw it at random. People will complain either way.

irishbucsfan

Rightwing wrote: »

It's fairer though, look at chelsea this season, went away to athletico, drew 0-0 and lost at home. Can have no complaints in that situation.

That is a completely different sport. It doesn't apply in the same way to rugby. Especially when you look at the difference in weather between somewhere like Toulouse and Glasgow in April.

Riskymove

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't think that would work if you end up with empty stadiums for semi finals.

why would you have empty stadiums?

I went all the way to marseille this year

Rightwing

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't think that would work if you end up with empty stadiums for semi finals.

For me they should either carry pool seedings through to the semi-finals or else draw it at random. People will complain either way.

I agree here, rugby isn't big enough for neutral venues.

Rightwing

Riskymove wrote: »

why would you have empty stadiums?

I went all the way to marseille this year

Munster are the best fans for travelling, followed probably by the other Irish provinces.

Grimebox

Rightwing wrote: »

Munster are the best fans for travelling, followed probably by the other Irish provinces.

Clermont have to be up there

Rightwing

Grimebox wrote: »

Clermont have to be up there

Only at home. Remember the semi v Sarries at Twickenham, that's what you'd be seeing unless Munster were involved.

Riskymove

a bit of creativity is all thats needed

play them as a double header in same venue

wouldn't Toulon vs Munster and Clermont vs Sarries both in Cardiff or Paris get a good crowd?

Rightwing

Riskymove wrote: »

a bit of creativity is all thats needed

play them as a double header in same venue

wouldn't Toulon vs Munster and Clermont vs Sarries both in Cardiff or Paris get a good crowd?

Good idea, but would have to be in Cardiff to eliminate the advantage.

Grimebox

Rightwing wrote: »

Only at home. Remember the semi v Sarries at Twickenham, that's what you'd be seeing unless Munster were involved.

That's true. I was just thinking of the invasion when they were playing in Dublin. Temple Bar was blue and yellow

Rightwing

Grimebox wrote: »

That's true. I was just thinking of the invasion when they were playing in Dublin. Temple Bar was blue and yellow

Like all French supporters, they make a hell of a noise, even when completely outnumbered.

Riskymove

Rightwing wrote: »

Good idea, but would have to be in Cardiff to eliminate the advantage.

not really

once the allocations are done right

I dont think that playing in places like Paris or Twickers is any great advantage to the teams from that country

on eof the biggest issues tof ans travelling to places like Toulon is alck of options

London and Paris have plenty and would not have the extreme costs associated with more remote or smaller locations

in my experience QF and SF trips are far more expensive and difficult than the Finals

former legend

Riskymove wrote: »

a bit of creativity is all thats needed

play them as a double header in same venue

wouldn't Toulon vs Munster and Clermont vs Sarries both in Cardiff or Paris get a good crowd?

There is absolutely no permutation of matches that will be absolutely fool-proof against someone finding something to give out and about and claim their team was harshly treated.

So in your example; play it in Cardiff; advantage for Munster and Sarries, but play it in Paris, advantage Clermont and Toulon.

Wait until the teams are known to get truly 'neutral' venues? Not enough time to market it, huge swathes of empty seats.

The third option is that people could just get on with it and stop whinging. Crazy, I know.

Rightwing

Riskymove wrote: »

not really

once the allocations are done right

I dont think that playing in places like Paris or Twickers is any great advantage to the teams from that country

on eof the biggest issues tof ans travelling to places like Toulon is alck of options

London and Paris have plenty and would not have the extreme costs associated with more remote or smaller locations

in my experience QF and SF trips are far more expensive and difficult than the Finals

Well, would playing in the Aviva be an advantage for Munster v Clermont in a semi ?

Riskymove

New Munster Rugby Head Coach, Anthony Foley, described his side’s opposition in Pool 1 of the new European Rugby Champions Cup as “three handy teams”.

A master of the understatement, the man who led Munster to the first of their two European triumphs in Cardiff in 2006 went on to describe Saracens, ASM Clermont Auvergne and Sale Sharks as “fearsome opposition”.

“We have picked up three of the best teams in Europe in our pool and looking at the rest of the tournament I think this is an even stronger draw than in previous years,” said Foley.

“We have six massive games ahead of us and we will be looking to them all. I’m sure there are a few teams who won’t be too happy about having Munster in their pool.

“We have met them all before in Europe and I’m sure our fans will travel in big numbers to Manchester, London and Clermont. And if Saracens fancy taking our game to Wembley, then that will be fine with us.

“It’s not a decision for us, but all the players love to play in big stadia and in big games. And all the games in our pool will be big games.

“Having grown up at the club it is going to be a huge honour for me to coach the team next season. I certainly won’t be underestimating the size of the task, but we have a good group of players which has been around for a while.

“We want to be playing in the big finals in May and to do that we are going to have to stop teams scoring easy points against us. We need to rectify that, especially when it comes to playing in the Champions Cup.”

Riskymove

Rightwing wrote: »

Well, would playing in the Aviva be an advantage for Munster v Clermont in a semi ?

would it? how many times have Munster won there?

yes we'd have extra support but not as much when there are 4 teams than just 2 involved

there would still be some element of chance of course but then again the same aplies to the final which is pre-determined and could be an advantage to one team...no one complains

Rightwing

Riskymove wrote: »

New Munster Rugby Head Coach, Anthony Foley, described his side’s opposition in Pool 1 of the new European Rugby Champions Cup as “three handy teams”.

A master of the understatement, the man who led Munster to the first of their two European triumphs in Cardiff in 2006 went on to describe Saracens, ASM Clermont Auvergne and Sale Sharks as “fearsome opposition”.

“We have picked up three of the best teams in Europe in our pool and looking at the rest of the tournament I think this is an even stronger draw than in previous years,” said Foley.

“We have six massive games ahead of us and we will be looking to them all. I’m sure there are a few teams who won’t be too happy about having Munster in their pool.

“We have met them all before in Europe and I’m sure our fans will travel in big numbers to Manchester, London and Clermont. And if Saracens fancy taking our game to Wembley, then that will be fine with us.

“It’s not a decision for us, but all the players love to play in big stadia and in big games. And all the games in our pool will be big games.

“Having grown up at the club it is going to be a huge honour for me to coach the team next season. I certainly won’t be underestimating the size of the task, but we have a good group of players which has been around for a while.

“We want to be playing in the big finals in May and to do that we are going to have to stop teams scoring easy points against us. We need to rectify that, especially when it comes to playing in the Champions Cup.”

They'll take it to Wembley, would love to there.

Riskymove

former legend wrote: »

There is absolutely no permutation of matches that will be absolutely fool-proof against someone finding something to give out and about and claim their team was harshly treated.

so why not try other ways then

I think it'd be a great spectacle and occassion

better than Toulon being at home for the next 10 years

Rightwing

Riskymove wrote: »

would it? how many times have Munster won there?

yes we'd have extra support but not as much when there are 4 teams than just 2 involved

there would still be some element of chance of course but then again the same aplies to the final which is pre-determined and could be an advantage to one team...no one complains

Maybe it's just the fact that we've been so unlucky, 2 from 11 semis at home, and 1 of them v Leinster!.