Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread III

stephen_n

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

As said by someone else above less points are likely to be needed to be a best runner up 9 points from Sale and 9 from the other four games should do it for Munster.

I would have thought that groups four and five will produce two second place teams with higher points than that, so it would still narrow it down to one from three.

Riskymove

former legend wrote: »

So in your example; play it in Cardiff; advantage for Munster and Sarries, but play it in Paris, advantage Clermont and Toulon.

in a one game scenario it would be a bigger advantage

between 4 teams it would be less

especially if more than one french team involved in paris for example

Riskymove

stephen_n wrote: »

I would have thought that groups four and five will produce two second place teams with higher points than that, so it would still narrow it down to one from three.

that's true

one outcome of these tougher groups is the liklihood of bigger teams not making it

already we know that at least one of sarries, Clermont and Munster

and one of Ulster, Leicester and Toulon

wont make it to QF



the flip side is that not making to QF doesn't affect your qualification or standing for future years

former legend

Riskymove wrote: »

so why not try other ways then

I think it'd be a great spectacle and occassion

better than Toulon being at home for the next 10 years

Yeah, it could be great, it would require rugby fans travelling in greater numbers than they ever have previously, but if it came off it would be fantastic.

I don't get the last bit? Why would Toulon always be at home?

Podge_irl

Riskymove wrote: »

would it? how many times have Munster won there?

yes we'd have extra support but not as much when there are 4 teams than just 2 involved

there would still be some element of chance of course but then again the same aplies to the final which is pre-determined and could be an advantage to one team...no one complains

Double Header in the Aviva would mean only 50,000 tickets for the entire semi-final weekend though. If you end up with two prime fixtures that would be useless.

I think double header semi-finals are a complete non-runner to be honest. As are neutral venues, you just won't get the crowds. Particularly as people will be saving their money for a potential final just two weeks later.

Riskymove

former legend wrote: »

I don't get the last bit? Why would Toulon always be at home?

I suppose I mean they are likely to be a high seed every year and a contender and if you use pool seedings they are likely to have home advantage every time they reach the SFs

Rightwing

Riskymove wrote: »

that's true

one outcome of these tougher groups is the liklihood of bigger teams not making it

already we know that at least one of sarries, Clermont and Munster

and one of Ulster, Leicester and Toulon

wont make it to QF



the flip side is that not making to QF doesn't affect your qualification or standing for future years

How's that? Does the domestic league take precedence over europe?

Podge_irl

Rightwing wrote: »

[/B]
How's that? Does the domestic league take precedence over europe?

Domestic form is the only barometer for seeding (at the moment anyway).

Riskymove

Podge_irl wrote: »

Double Header in the Aviva would mean only 50,000 tickets for the entire semi-final weekend though. If you end up with two prime fixtures that would be useless.

so 50,000 seats not enough but you wouldn't get fans travelling?

which is it?


yes there are possible issues... just like in an all-french final in dublin but it's still something that could work out

Riskymove

Rightwing wrote: »

[/B]
How's that? Does the domestic league take precedence over europe?

yep

even winning the european cup doesn't guarantee qualification or seeding

Rightwing

Podge_irl wrote: »

Domestic form is the only barometer for seeding (at the moment anyway).

That's a bit of a joke too I think.

Riskymove

Rightwing wrote: »

That's a bit of a joke too I think.

while the english and french think that the other way around is a joke.....and so here we are

Rightwing

Riskymove wrote: »

while the english and french think that the other way around is a joke.....and so here we are

Surely the answer lies somewhere in between. It will make the Rabo better though, to be fair up until now it's been a laughing stock of a league.

stephen_n

Rightwing wrote: »

Surely the answer lies somewhere in between. It will make the Rabo better though, to be fair up until now it's been a laughing stock of a league.

Think this year apart, that's a bit harsh, it had become reasonably competitive till Welsh rugby imploded. But this will certainly up the anti, doubt any of the provinces will write games off lightly, since every point can count, that can only be a good thing for the league.

Rightwing

stephen_n wrote: »

Think this year apart, that's a bit harsh, it had become reasonably competitive till Welsh rugby imploded. But this will certainly up the anti, doubt any of the provinces will write games off lightly, since every point can count, that can only be a good thing for the league.

I agree to a point there, but it was all about the H cup particularly for the Irish.

stephen_n

Rightwing wrote: »

I agree to a point there, but it was all about the H cup particularly for the Irish.

To be honest, with the way things are going in the game, even if the ERC format had stayed unchanged, Irish teams would still be struggling to compete going forward. This of course might be exacerbated if the English clubs can attract more money by doing better in Europe, I'd imagine though the draw doesn't really thrill the English either as a lot of their clubs are pitched against each other. No matter what no one is going to be entirely happy but this is what we have now.

Rightwing

stephen_n wrote: »

To be honest, with the way things are going in the game, even if the ERC format had stayed unchanged, Irish teams would still be struggling to compete going forward. This of course might be exacerbated if the English clubs can attract more money by doing better in Europe, I'd imagine though the draw doesn't really thrill the English either as a lot of their clubs are pitched against each other. No matter what no one is going to be entirely happy but this is what we have now.

I would agree with that.

Variety made the H cup great, even if there were a few poor teams like racing/castres/treviso etc

CatFromHue

stephen_n wrote: »

To be honest, with the way things are going in the game, even if the ERC format had stayed unchanged, Irish teams would still be struggling to compete going forward. This of course might be exacerbated if the English clubs can attract more money by doing better in Europe, I'd imagine though the draw doesn't really thrill the English either as a lot of their clubs are pitched against each other. No matter what no one is going to be entirely happy but this is what we have now.

We've always been struggling to compete financially though, there's nothing new here.

Podge_irl

Riskymove wrote: »

so 50,000 seats not enough but you wouldn't get fans travelling?

which is it?

Well it could quite easily be either depending on the make up of the semi finals! That's the problem.

To be honest I don't really like double headers. It goes on too long.

Podge_irl

Rightwing wrote: »

Surely the answer lies somewhere in between. It will make the Rabo better though, to be fair up until now it's been a laughing stock of a league.

It really hasn't been, though it's been far from perfect.

A big problem has been it's public perception because of people insisting it's so horribly inferior despite clearly not watching much of it or the T14/premiership.

stephen_n

CatFromHue wrote: »

We've always been struggling to compete financially though, there's nothing new here.

Absolutely true but as the money increases, so does the quality of SH player coming north, mostly to French clubs, that said with the setup and production lines for home grown talent we have in place, I think we will still remain competitive no matter what, unless we start losing the top Irish players to bigger money deals.

CatFromHue

Podge_irl wrote: »

It really hasn't been, though it's been far from perfect.

A big problem has been it's public perception because of people insisting it's so horribly inferior despite clearly not watching much of it or the T14/premiership.

I think I compared the Rabo v Aviva HEC results before and once you take the Italian teams out of the equation the Aviva is only marginally better off than us by a couple of wins.

stephen_n wrote: »

Absolutely true but as the money increases, so does the quality of SH player coming north, mostly to French clubs, that said with the setup and production lines for home grown talent we have in place, I think we will still remain competitive no matter what, unless we start losing the top Irish players to bigger money deals.

Ya keeping the Irish guys while adding in a couple NIQ players has been out path to success before so is a good model to keep for the future.

kilns

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Its an awful group, and one you'd imagine the organisers wanted to avoid. It does them no good having three of the best four teams in Europe battling it out in the group stages.

Three of the best four teams in Europe, really?:rolleyes:

Cookiemunster

kilns wrote: »

Three of the best four teams in Europe, really?:rolleyes:

There are 3 of the semi finalists from the last two seasons in the group, so technically he's correct.

Grimebox

kilns wrote: »

Three of the best four teams in Europe, really?:rolleyes:

I assume his metric is last years Heineken Cup semi finalists

Tox56

Cookiemunster wrote: »

There are 3 of the semi finalists from the last two seasons in the group, so technically he's correct.

Technically correct would be saying the group contains 3 of the semi finalists from the last two seasons

Cookiemunster

Tox56 wrote: »

Technically correct would be saying the group contains 3 of the semi finalists from the last two seasons

Were Leinster not the best team in Europe in 2009, 2011 and 2012?

Tox56

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Were Leinster not the best team in Europe in 2009 and 2011?

Probably, and Toulon are now

Cookiemunster

Tox56 wrote: »

Probably, and Toulon are now

Exactly, yet they weren't they best team in their league. It's not incorrect to say that the 4 teams who reach the HEC semis two seasons in a row are the 4 best in Europe.

Tox56

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Exactly, yet they weren't they best team in their league. It's not incorrect to say that the 4 teams who reach the HEC semis two seasons in a row are the 4 best in Europe.

No, the 4 teams who reach the H cup semis are the 4 teams who reach the H cup semis. Given the nature of the system it's way too simplistic to say the 4 semi finalists = the 4 best teams, that's always the case in cup competitions

Going by your logic it wouldn't make any difference whether the same 4 teams reach the semis 1 year in a row or 45 years in a row, which I would say is flawed logic. Now it's highly likely that if the same 4 teams reach the semis 45 years in a row they are the 4 best in Europe, but that's a separate point

Grimebox

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Exactly, yet they weren't they best team in their league. It's not incorrect to say that the 4 teams who reach the HEC semis two seasons in a row are the 4 best in Europe.

Toulon did win their league though, and were probably the best team in that league.

Cookiemunster

Tox56 wrote: »

No, the 4 teams who reach the H cup semis are the 4 teams who reach the H cup semis. Given the nature of the system it's way too simplistic to say the 4 semi finalists = the 4 best teams, that's always the case in cup competitions

Going by your logic it wouldn't make any difference whether the same 4 teams reach the semis 1 year in a row or 45 years in a row, which I would say is flawed logic. Now it's highly likely that if the same 4 teams reach the semis 45 years in a row they are the 4 best in Europe, but that's a separate point

But by that logic then it's also too simplistic to say the winners are the best team in Europe because its a cup competition. Yet that's accepted as fact. It can't go both ways.

Rightwing

Grimebox wrote: »

Toulon did win their league though, and were probably the best team in that league.

Ya, there's no doubt but Toulon are the best, and have been for sometime. I'd go so far as to say they are te best the competition as ever seen.

Tox56

Cookiemunster wrote: »

But by that logic then it's also too simplistic to say the winners are the best team in Europe because its a cup competition. Yet that's accepted as fact. It can't go both ways.

Two things on that; A) I would regard winning the competition differently to finishing as a semi-finalist, and you are happy to find all the hypocrisy you want in that because my opinion on the best team in Europe is not solely based on the winner of the competition.

Leinster were probably the best team in Europe in 2009 but winning the H Cup doesnt automatically make it so (just like I dont think Ospreys were the best team in the 2012 Rabo, even though they won it). I do however think Leinster were clearly the best team in Europe in 2011.

I mean, over the last two years Munster have lost to Edinburgh, Racing Metro, Saracens, Toulon and Clermont, whereas Leinster have lost to Northampton, Toulon and Clermont.

In both years Leinster and Munster were knocked out by the same side. Should the fact it happened for Munster at a later stage automatically make them better in those years? I say no (although you could hold that opinion anyway, Im just saying it shouldnt automatically be the case).

Kinger83

Here are the euro rankings for the last 30 games for anyone who's interested. Toulon currently have a rating of 100.

http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php

irishbucsfan

Kinger83 wrote: »

Here are the euro rankings for the last 30 games for anyone who's interested. Toulon currently have a rating of 100.

http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php

The top team always have a ranking of 100, and then the others are based off that number relatively.

Cookiemunster

Tox56 wrote: »

Two things on that; A) I would regard winning the competition differently to finishing as a semi-finalist, and you are happy to find all the hypocrisy you want in that because my opinion on the best team in Europe is not solely based on the winner of the competition.

Leinster were probably the best team in Europe in 2009 but winning the H Cup doesnt automatically make it so (just like I dont think Ospreys were the best team in the 2012 Rabo, even though they won it). I do however think Leinster were clearly the best team in Europe in 2011.

I mean, over the last two years Munster have lost to Edinburgh, Racing Metro, Saracens, Toulon and Clermont, whereas Leinster have lost to Northampton, Toulon and Clermont.

In both years Leinster and Munster were knocked out by the same side. Should the fact it happened for Munster at a later stage automatically make them better in those years? I say no (although you could hold that opinion anyway, Im just saying it shouldnt automatically be the case).

Look, we'll have to agree to disagree. Suppose it's a meaningless argument anyway.

phog

I'm happy enough with the draw, two teams will certainly challenge us but all three should be beatable in Thomond Park, LBPs will probably decide the pool.

I remember Dougie's first year here, I think it was Wasps but we got a LBP away and he couldn't figure out why we were happy, by the end of the pool stages he saw the significance, well this year it could well be the same.

A home Q/F is probably too much to hope for but at this moment in time I'll take a q/f spot.

Hagz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG7Tv0d7Q8U

Fireball07

The draw isn't great for us as Munster fans, in that it's hard to qualify, but we only have ourselves to blame. A poor end to the season caused it... losing to Toulon and Glasgow means that we deserve to be ranked where we are.


If we have can keep our key players injury free, I don't see why we can't progress from that group though. We won't fear Sarries and Clermont are past their sell-by date. But if someone like Earls gets injured every time Ireland are about to play a match, that will disrupt our season

Eod100

Fireball07 wrote: »

The draw isn't great for us as Munster fans, in that it's hard to qualify, but we only have ourselves to blame. A poor end to the season caused it... losing to Toulon and Glasgow means that we deserve to be ranked where we are.


If we have can keep our key players injury free, I don't see why we can't progress from that group though. We won't fear Sarries and Clermont are past their sell-by date. But if someone like Earls gets injured every time Ireland are about to play a match, that will disrupt our season

Wasn't the ranking only based on Rabo performances though? And with luck of draw could still have drawn a tough group regardless

danthefan

Fireball07 wrote: »

The draw isn't great for us as Munster fans, in that it's hard to qualify, but we only have ourselves to blame. A poor end to the season caused it... losing to Toulon and Glasgow means that we deserve to be ranked where we are.


If we have can keep our key players injury free, I don't see why we can't progress from that group though. We won't fear Sarries and Clermont are past their sell-by date. But if someone like Earls gets injured every time Ireland are about to play a match, that will disrupt our season

Tbh basically everyone has a difficult group. There's no handy ones like Biarritz used to get year on year. Munster have T14 SF-ists and AP finalists. Ulster have T14/HEC champs and AP SF-ists. Leinster have AP SF-ists and T14 finalists.

I'm actually quite looking forward to it now, should be a cracking competition tbf as much as we don't like the HEC being done away with.

Fireball07

Eod100 wrote: »

Wasn't the ranking only based on Rabo performances though? And with luck of draw could still have drawn a tough group regardless

It is yeah, but I'm just using them as examples of games where we could have pushed on, the games were there to be won, and we didn't. There should be no excuses for not winning the Pro12 last season imo.

danthefan wrote: »

Tbh basically everyone has a difficult group. There's no handy ones like Biarritz used to get year on year. Munster have T14 SF-ists and AP finalists. Ulster have T14/HEC champs and AP SF-ists. Leinster have AP SF-ists and T14 finalists.

I'm actually quite looking forward to it now, should be a cracking competition tbf as much as we don't like the HEC being done away with.

Yeah, I have absolutely no problem with seeding based on league performance... the only potential problem is if some teams care more about their domestic league than European competition.

ArmchairQB

Downey to Glasgow I hear

thomond2006

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Downey to Glasgow I hear

That would be a surprise move, I don't think he would suit their often helter-skelter attack. They've Horne, Dunbar, Lamont and Bennett as centres.

thomond2006

Squads have been updated with new names:
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/academy.php
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/first_team_squad.php

Gerry Hurley is not there so it looks like he has been released while Martin Kelly, the prop from Trinity, isn't there either/yet.

IN:
Martin Kelly (prop, Trinity), Shane Buckley (flanker, academy), Robin Copeland (number eight, Cardiff Blues),
Johnny Holland (fly-half, academy), Tyler Bleyendaal (fly-half, Crusaders), Andrew Smith (centre, Brumbies)

OUT:
Ger Slattery (hooker, released - training contract), Quentin McDonald (hooker, released), Darren O'Shea (academy lock, Worcester), Ian Nagle (lock, tbc), Niall Ronan (flanker, retired), James Coughlan (number eight, Pau),
Gerry Hurley (scrum-half, released), James Downey (centre, tbc), Casey Laulala (centre, Racing Métro)


HOOKERS

Mike Sherry 2015
Damien Varley 2015
Duncan Casey 2016
Niall Scannell 2015

PROPS

James Cronin 2016
Dave Kilcoyne undisclosed

BJ Botha 2015
Stephen Archer 2015
John Ryan 2016
Alan Cotter 2015
Martin Kelly 2015 - ARRIVING

LOCKS

Paul O'Connell 2016
Donnacha Ryan 2017
Donncha O'Callaghan 2016
Dave Foley 2015
Billy Holland 2016

FLANKERS

Peter O'Mahony 2015
Dave O'Callaghan 2015
Sean Dougall 2015
Tommy O'Donnell 2016
Barry O'Mahony 2015
Shane Buckley 2015 - FROM ACADEMY

NUMBER EIGHTS

Robin Copeland 2016 - ARRIVING
Paddy Butler 2015
CJ Stander 2016

SCRUM-HALVES

Conor Murray 2016
Cathal Sheridan 2016
Duncan Williams 2015

FLY-HALVES

Ian Keatley 2015
JJ Hanrahan 2015
Tyler Bleyendall 2017 - ARRIVING
Johnny Holland 2015 - FROM ACADEMY

CENTRES

Ivan Dineen 2015
Cian Bohane 2015
Andrew Smith 2015 - ARRIVING

WINGERS

Simon Zebo 2016
Keith Earls 2016
Gerhard Van Den Heever 2015
Johne Murphy 2015
Andrew Conway 2015
Luke O'Dea 2015
Ronan O'Mahony 2015

FULLBACKS

Felix Jones 2015
Denis Hurley 2015

tommycahir

Interesting to see that Tyler Bleyendaal is listed as a fly half thought he was signed as a 12???

Burcsd94

This years Munster Academy.

Prop
Niall Horan, 21, 6' 115kg, Year 2
Rory Burke, 20, 6' 109kg, Year 2
Brian Scott, 21, 6'5 125kg, Year 1

Hooker
Max Abbott, 19, 5'9 106kg, Year 1

Lock
Sean McCarthy, 21, 6'6 112kg, Year 2
John Madigan, 20, 6'6 119kg, Year 2
Darragh Moloney, 19, 6'5 103kg, Year 1

Backrow
Ryan Murphy, 21, 6'2 100kg, Year 3
Jack O'Donoghue, 20, 6'2 97kg, Year 3

Scrumhalf
Jack Cullen, 19, 5'7 68kg, Year 2
Ryan Foley, 19, 5'8 78kg, Year 1
Jame Glynn, 21, 5'11 87kg, Year 1

Outhalf
Gearoid Lyons, 19, 5'11 82kg, Year 2

Centre
Rory Scannell, 20, 5'11 94kg, Year 2
Dan Goggin, 19, 6'2 95kg, Year 1

Back Three
Darren Sweetnam, 21, 6'1 88kg, Year 3
David Johnston, 20, 5'11 91kg, Year 2
Alex Wootton, 20, 6'1 100kg, Year 2
Greg O'Shea, 19, 5'11 77kg, Year 2
Stephen Fitzgerald, 18, 6'2 87kg, Year 1

umop.episdn

tommycahir wrote: »

Interesting to see that Tyler Bleyendaal is listed as a fly half thought he was signed as a 12???

He's a flyhalf who can play 12, that's what he was signed at, regardless of what some may have you think

lazybones32

tommycahir wrote: »

Interesting to see that Tyler Bleyendaal is listed as a fly half thought he was signed as a 12???

Even more interesting is that all our fly-halves for the coming Season can play at 12.