Do you inform?

endacl

Question for artists regarding ethics. Through some extensive YouTube roulette (ye know how it goes!) I came across the case of James Burmeister, a marine based at Fort Bragg. Burmeister was a neo-nazi, and during a drunken conversation with another fine example of humanity was told that a badge of honour among the skinhead community was the elbow spiderweb tattoo, described as an honour one was entitled to for the murder of a black person. Burmeister went out that same night to earn himself a web. In that particular subculture, the web actually symbolises having served time, having been 'caught in the web', as it were. I suppose, as an aside, that Burmeister did earn his web. He murdered a young couple who he came across on their walk home, and was convicted for it. Ar5ehole. Could have gone and stolen a mars bar for the same award...

A lot of classic designs have, over time, entered the popular culture. Swallows and Nautical Stars are by no means the sole preserve of sailors these days, and in the spirit of the charter, I personally have no problem at all with folks putting whatever they like on their skin, and those classic designs can look amazing. Even the spiderweb! On foot of the Burmeister case though, and I am aware its an extreme example, two questions occur to me that relate to the artist that does the work.

1. If somebody came to you for a classic tattoo that had a particular symbolism attached to it, especially if that symbolism might be considered historically questionable, would you feel an obligation to let them know about it if they didn't appear to be aware of the fact? I ask this because I do consider tattoo artists to be 'artists' in the truest sense. You're not just inking a design. You're making a permanent statement, albeit on behalf of the paying customer. Would you consider it a professional and ethical responsibility to inform, for example, a young guy coming in for his first inking if he wanted the web? Hypothetically, say he wants it because the guitarist in his favourite band has it, and he thinks it looks cool. It might mean nothing special here, but someday he might meet somebody who would interpret it in a particular way, or he might end up on a J1 in SoCal, where it could definitely be interpreted in a particular way.

2. Shorter question. If somebody came in for a design, and was obviously well aware of the symbolism, but it was something you disagreed with, are you 'artist' or 'professional' first. I'm not asking if you'd agree to ink a swastika (yes, I know. I'm not referring to the Hindu one!), and I'll admit that I can't think of an appropriate example offhand. I'm not using the 'web' example again! Would you agree to do the work for a paying customer, or would you refuse to be associated with the meaning behind the design?

Anyway. I'd be interested to see what people have to say. Thanks for taking the time to read my rambles.

Edit: Actually, not just artists. What does anybody think? Didn't mean to exclude!

P_1

Interesting question. I guess it would depend on the artist, the person getting tattooed and the tattoo in question. Most importantly I'd say context would be the key

endacl

I'm thinking the same, I must admit. I don't really have a position on either question. Context would really define it. Thought it might make an interesting chat though.

P_1

Some people tend to be fairly critical of artists who would tattoo people with Nazi or other far right imagery. I think there's one artist in particular who is a bit Marmite in relation to that.

Other imagery is more complex though I'd say. Tattoos and imagery associated with Russian prisons come to mind

Hellrazer

http://www.tattoosymbol.com/just-for-site/spider-web.html

A spider web tattoo isn't necessarily a hate symbol and likewise with a swastika.


But your question is a difficult one to answer.

The person wanting the tattoo is an adult and is (should) well be able to make up their own mind regardless of what they want tattooed and I don't think its right for a tattoo artist to judge them.

Personally I think Id refuse point blank to tattoo anything offensive on anyone.

However I also don't find a spider web offensive or if a Hindu person came in for a swastika you couldn't really refuse them either.

If a skinhead / neo Nazi type bloke asked Id say no.

Certain tattoos that we`d find offensive also may not be offensive elsewhere.

How about another "neo Nazi" tattoo that the Aryan brotherhood have "claimed"?

Yep the humble shamrock.

So an Irishman gets put in jail in the US,the AB see their shamrock and its been known that they will remove that tattoo if the person wearing it isn't a member of AB.

So do stop tattooing shamrocks just in case the wearer is incarcerated in a US prison??

Good topic for discussion Endacl.

Orim

Hellrazer wrote: »

How about another "neo Nazi" tattoo that the Aryan brotherhood have "claimed"?

Yep the humble shamrock.

Fecking Nazis ruin everything.

Atavan-Halen

If I were an artist I'd flat out refuse to tattoo anything intentionally racist or offensive to anyone as that goes against my beliefs and wouldn't want to be responsible for putting that negativity on someone or for someone to spread. The reason I say intentionally is that some tattoos and symbols have other meanings of course like the swastika being a nazi symbol and in Hindu as well. I would make people aware of the meanings of tattoos in other cultures if it was something that had a couple Of meanings and one of them was associated with hate or racism or whatever as it could be an issue later on down the line. As long as the person is aware of what their getting and knows the meanings of the tattoo then I'd see no problem tattooing it then.

I'd like to get the number 88 tattooed (just because I like the number) but it has nazi links to it so I can't see myself getting it done.

Orim

As stated context would play the biggest part in any decision regarding the meaning of a tattoo. If you look hard enough you can probably find someone that believes anything is racist or a symbol of something you don't want to be associated with.

Look at the discussion we had last week about the cats in top hats being symbols of russian criminals. I see that as a classy cat but others see it as something else.

The Iron Cross is something I'd consider getting done. It can be associated with Nazi's but it's also metal as hell. Incorporate it into a metal backpiece. Cool. Get it done with a load of swastikas. Not so cool.

endacl

Orim wrote: »

As stated context would play the biggest part in any decision regarding the meaning of a tattoo. If you look hard enough you can probably find someone that believes anything is racist or a symbol of something you don't want to be associated with.

Look at the discussion we had last week about the cats in top hats being symbols of russian criminals. I see that as a classy cat but others see it as something else.

The Iron Cross is something I'd consider getting done. It can be associated with Nazi's but it's also metal as hell. Incorporate it into a metal backpiece. Cool. Get it done with a load of swastikas. Not so cool.

Good example. The symbol goes back to the 13th century, and was first incorporated in the design of a medal in 1813. Another symbol that was co-opted by nazism.

Leads to another interesting turnaround type question though. If somebody came to you, who you knew had extreme RW tendencies and told you they were getting an Iron Cross design, would you ask them if it was to commemorate the Seige of Damietta in 1213, the first major military engagement of the Knights of the Teutonic Order who used the cross as their sigil?

Orim

I think that if you knew they had extreme RW views then you'd have a fair idea of what the cross symbolises for them. But then if you had someone whose politics you didn't know it would become a more difficult question.

As a ramble, even the swastika seems to be losing it's mystique. I notice that people are more accepting of it's full history. On facebook every so often one of the artists (or someone) that I follow posts pictures of tattoo guns they sell which have a swastika design. I've seen it a couple of times but everytime I see it, I doubletake.

P_1

Orim wrote: »

I think that if you knew they had extreme RW views then you'd have a fair idea of what the cross symbolises for them. But then if you had someone whose politics you didn't know it would become a more difficult question.

Ironically enough on the IC, it forms a part of my own elbow piece and I'm certainly not RW. I remember having a fascinating chat with the artist about various symbols and the reasoning why he wouldn't do them depending on people's reasons for getting them done when I was getting it done

endacl

P_1 wrote: »

Ironically enough on the IC, it forms a part of my own elbow piece and I'm certainly not RW. I remember having a fascinating chat with the artist about various symbols and the reasoning why he wouldn't do them depending on people's reasons for getting them done when I was getting it done

Exactly. I'm not an artist, but (and of course I'm only basing this on what I know of you from here ) if you came to me, I'd do you an IC, no problem. If the next guy in wanted the same to augment his eagle and swastika, and was flipping through a copy of Mein Kampf, there'd probably be a long conversation before needle touched skin. After which it probably wouldn't.

If it was, say, a young fella who wanted it just because it looked cool though, I'm not so sure. The hypothetical situation might be something like

Me: "you know what this means to many people, don't you?"
Him: "Yeah, of course. Motorhead!"

I really think I would ask him to go away for a day, read a little on the Teutonic Knights, Prussian military awards, IC history in WWI and WWII...
I'd even lend him the books! If he came back in and said "Interesting, but to me it still means 'Motorhead'", well, I'd have no issue with doing it*. But I don't think I'd be comfortable starting before he came back in a and said that.








*This of course might have a lot to do with the fact that I'm a massive Motorhead fan though....

jenizzle

The thing is, probably nearly every significant image has been used in a discriminate way at some point. I wouldn't expect the artist to inform me of the possible connotations of the image I pick - it would be up to myself as a client to research this. I do believe, however, that the artist would have a moral obligation not to tattoo an obvious nazi if the tattoo was there to incite hatred.

Ms. Koi

Really interesting idea for a thread. I think the moral obligation is on the customer. Any piece I've ever had means a lot to me, but I would struggle to get something with certain links to specific things (but saying it in a vague way :P ). There's a fella in college and he is covered in tattoos, but he has swasticas on his face, in a geometric type of pattern around his entire face and head. He gets strange looks constantly but there is no way of knowing what meaning is behind it unless you ask him.
It's difficult to tell but it's certainly something that could cause issues, as they are so visible. Although, in saying that tattoos are very personal and mean different things to different people. I think it's definitely a case by case sort of thing

joey100

Good topic. Was thinking about something like this recently myself, and the question came up 'where do you draw the line?'. Although not as racist or offensive as the examples you have given, nike recently made a pair of trousers and tops for women that had a type of polynesian/samoan design print on it. Turns out this is very offensive to these cultures as normally these markings and designs are reserved for men in the tribes. Nike seemed to have now pulled the clothes from sale. But should a tattoo artist refuse to tattoo these designs on a female because of the culture and history of them? No easy answers to these questions.

RhoDoDenDron

joey100 wrote: »

Good topic. Was thinking about something like this recently myself, and the question came up 'where do you draw the line?'. Although not as racist or offensive as the examples you have given, nike recently made a pair of trousers and tops for women that had a type of polynesian/samoan design print on it. Turns out this is very offensive to these cultures as normally these markings and designs are reserved for men in the tribes. Nike seemed to have now pulled the clothes from sale. But should a tattoo artist refuse to tattoo these designs on a female because of the culture and history of them? No easy answers to these questions.

This post crosses into the line of "cultural appropriation" though. I once came across a girl who would go through the 'dreadlocks' tag on tumblr and message people of non-African ethnicities (if that's the correct word) and tell them that they were being disrespectful by calling their matted hairstyle dreadlocks. She said that it was disrespectful to the African slaves where the hairstyle had first manifested.

Of course, I think this is total bull. Without meaning to be offensive, I think it's totally fine for Paddy Irishman to have 'dreadlocks' without that terms being offensive. It's simply what that word means now, regardless of its initial connotations.

So I guess the only relevance that has is that everyone will draw their own line. Obviously there are artists out there who are willing to tattoo RW imagery, even if most won't. Personally, if I was a tattoo artist, I wouldn't really like to tattoo religious imagery, let alone racist or otherwise unsavoury imagery. That's just me, it would feel wrong.

JustAThought

A girl in work was telling that she wanted a ratio of a swallow on her neck (eek) - the ratio artist she was getting it done with asked her if she knew it was a prison sign for mount joy - she didn't - was horrified - and changed her mind totally got something else done . She was in disbelief that she didn't know what it stood for & that she had sî nearly made this mistake. Big thanks due to someone there.


What other symbols are out there ?

Arawn

JustAThought wrote: »

A girl in work was telling that she wanted a ratio of a swallow on her neck (eek) - the ratio artist she was getting it done with asked her if she knew it was a prison sign for mount joy - she didn't - was horrified - and changed her mind totally got something else done . She was in disbelief that she didn't know what it stood for & that she had sî nearly made this mistake. Big thanks due to someone there.


What other symbols are out there ?

name a tattoo. chances are it will have one somewhere

old hippy

I have a 69 on one of my buttocks. It symbolises my star sign and also yin yang.

I'm pretty sure it has other connotations, mind...

Hellrazer

JustAThought wrote: »

A girl in work was telling that she wanted a ratio of a swallow on her neck (eek) - the ratio artist she was getting it done with asked her if she knew it was a prison sign for mount joy - she didn't - was horrified - and changed her mind totally got something else done . She was in disbelief that she didn't know what it stood for & that she had sî nearly made this mistake. Big thanks due to someone there.


What other symbols are out there ?

In all fairness a swallow is NOT a symbol for mountjoy.It's an old nautical symbol..

bodice ripper

Related question: should I inform people when they are getting tattoos that people generally regret or that I myself spend a lot of time covering? Ie boyfriend/girlfriend names, Chinese symbols, straight from flash butterflies, etc....

Star Lord

bodice ripper wrote: »

Related question: should I inform people when they are getting tattoos that people generally regret or that I myself spend a lot of time covering? Ie boyfriend/girlfriend names, Chinese symbols, straight from flash butterflies, etc....

Nah, increased chance of future work... :pac:

bodice ripper

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

Nah, increased chance of future work... :pac:

word.

as an aside, this current fad for infinity symbols WILL NOT end well. I have never seen any one design take off to such an extent. In a few years we will have a huge number of people who aren't that fond of tattoos, but wanted a "discrete, dainty, feminine" one, put it on or near the hands complete with an identikit inspirational word written in. They will be so common that they will blow lower back tribals out of the water, and will be regarded with the same disdain. There will be heartache.

Arawn

bodice ripper wrote: »

word.

as an aside, this current fad for infinity symbols WILL NOT end well. I have never seen any one design take off to such an extent. In a few years we will have a huge number of people who aren't that fond of tattoos, but wanted a "discrete, dainty, feminine" one, put it on or near the hands complete with an identikit inspirational word written in. They will be so common that they will blow lower back tribals out of the water, and will be regarded with the same disdain. There will be heartache.

more of an awkward target to hit too :pac:

K.r.a.t.o.S

I personally wouldn't want to tattoo something like a swastika for a neo-nazi. But how's this for a mind-bender;...is a neo-nazi tattoo a good way for society to quickly and easily identify the a**hole in the crowd??!