Boards needs a "Road Tax" rule.

SeanW

Dear boards admins

recently an issue has come to a head (originating, I would argue on the Cycling forum) on the C&T forum and spilled over onto the Feedback forum, that being the now infamous "Mods posting in threads" thread.

Basically the dispute is between two groups:

1. A group of cyclists complaining vociferousoly, for whatever reason, about the use of the colloquial term "road tax" which as everyone knows is a common reference to what is technically called "motor tax."
2. A group of people not receptive to the complaints (including myself) who are either puzzled as to what the problem is or opposed to the agenda that it is felt is being pushed with this phony grienvance mongering.

To settle the issue once and for all, I suggest that boards needs a road tax rule: preferably specifying that the term road tax is permissable without restriction throughout boards - with the possible exception of the Cycling forum - and that no accusation of "trolling" may stand just because the term is used.

Another alternative of course would be to do what the cyclist hardliners want (see Post 17 in that thread) and ban anyone who uses the term. Needless to say this is not an option I can speak positively of at all, but either way I suggest Boards could provide some clarity.

Friend Computer

SeanW wrote: »

which as everyone knows is a common reference to what is technically called "motor tax."

But that's wrong. It's used to stir **** up here because you and others that use it know it'll get a reaction. You know it'll wind people up so there's already a rule against it: the one against trolling, which is what it is.

And just a side note, language like "cycalist hardliners" isn't exactly going to help your cause. It just further clarifies that your only intention here is to piss people off.

Spook_ie

Friend Computer wrote: »

But that's wrong. It's used to stir **** up here because you and others that use it know it'll get a reaction. You know it'll wind people up so there's already a rule against it: the one against trolling, which is what it is.

And just a side note, language like "cycalist hardliners" isn't exactly going to help your cause. It just further clarifies that your only intention here is to piss people off.

To be fair, he did specify "With the exception of the cycling forum", it may well keep the mods busy in other forums if the threads become invaded by people insisting that there is no such thing as "Road Tax" but no more so than it is at present with people insisting that there is

I mean is it in years to come that using the word "road tax" will be viewed with the same shock horror of using the N word I certainly hope not

nesf

Really if you're getting worked up over not being able to use the wrong name for something when you know it's the wrong name for it I deeply worry about you.

bumper234

Can't see the problem. Road tax, car tax, motor tax, pothole tax, it all means the same thing. It's just a few die hards that foam at the mouth when the "wrong" term in their opinion is used.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Steve

In any particular debate, if you can't make your point using the correct term for the article being debated then you you don't actually have a point.

i.e. if you need to change the legally defined term 'motor tax' to something else to further your argument then you've already lost.

No problems calling it something else in a 'light-hearted' discussion or jovial manner but to rely on the alternative title to prove a point is just - well pointless.

Boards has always been about discussion and being able to support your opinion on fact so such a ruling would be madness imo.

Spook_ie

nesf wrote: »

Really if you're getting worked up over not being able to use the wrong name for something when you know it's the wrong name for it I deeply worry about you.

Ah but thin end of the wedge, when you allow a group to dictate what you can and can't say ( within the realms of common decency ) what other things would you ignore.

nesf

Spook_ie wrote: »

Ah but thin end of the wedge, when you allow a group to dictate what you can and can't say ( within the realms of common decency ) what other things would you ignore.

I don't think anything should be dictated either way to be honest. Grand, say road tax, just don't be surprised if some people correct you.

Cabaal

Thing is its called motor tax so by calling it road tax you're using the wrong name,

Lots of people still call electric tricky ireland the esb but it's wrong, as such you'd be corrected on that also.

Calling it a road tax suggest it's a tax for public road use, but it's not. It's a tax on motorised transport on public roads.... This is why somebody walking, running or cycling on a public road pays nothing.

If you doing like be corrected then use the correct name.

If anything was to be banned (and such a suggestion is just idiotic) it would be the incorrect and misleading term "road tax".

Dades

This all boils down to intent.

Some of you know the term 'road tax' winds people up. That's why you use it. You know it, we know it. So let's end this ridiculous dance-off, it's just tedious now.

If a mod thinks the term is being used to wind people up then they are right to charge that poster with trolling. Especially if there's a history of same.

Spook_ie

Dades wrote: »

This all boils down to intent.

Some of you know the term 'road tax' winds people up. That's why you use it. You know it, we know it. So let's end this ridiculous dance-off, it's just tedious now.

If a mod thinks the term is being used to wind people up then they are right to charge that poster with trolling. Especially if there's a history of same.

But ( and here we go again ) the entire concept of motorists not paying road tax in the UK ( under whatever name ) has been proven, we are in Ireland, the Motor Tax which you pay to use the roads ( therefore it's a road tax ) is allocated to the LGF in it's entirety, the LGF is ring fenced by local government to pay for ( among other things) L class roads, therefore motor tax is required to use the roads as well as providing funding for parts of the network.

So many argue that the motor tax doesn't go towards the roads that the lie has become almost self sustaining and until such time as the revenue from motor tax is diverted away from LGFs or the LGF no longer need maintain local roads then it needs to be pointed out, if that means provoking discussion about the wrong naming of it then so be it, I'll post for the truth!

nesf

Spook_ie wrote: »

But ( and here we go again ) the entire concept of motorists not paying road tax in the UK ( under whatever name ) has been proven, we are in Ireland, the Motor Tax which you pay to use the roads ( therefore it's a road tax ) is allocated to the LGF in it's entirety, the LGF is ring fenced by local government to pay for ( among other things) L class roads, therefore motor tax is required to use the roads as well as providing funding for parts of the network.

So many argue that the motor tax doesn't go towards the roads that the lie has become almost self sustaining and until such time as the revenue from motor tax is diverted away from LGFs or the LGF no longer need maintain local roads then it needs to be pointed out, if that means provoking discussion about the wrong naming of it then so be it, I'll post for the truth!

What are you on about? Since when has the name of tax have to be exactly describing what its paying for? I mean, hey, I suppose I get to call PAYE dole tax since that's where most of it goes eh?

P. Breathnach

Dades wrote: »

This all boils down to intent.

Some of you know the term 'road tax' winds people up. That's why you use it. You know it, we know it. So let's end this ridiculous dance-off, it's just tedious now.

If a mod thinks the term is being used to wind people up then they are right to charge that poster with trolling. Especially if there's a history of same.

Reasonable enough.

But jumping on people where no such intent is obvious is equally wrong. It's akin to being a grammar nazi.

It looks to me that there is a real issue underlying the terminology problem: the view that some motorists have that because their vehicles are taxed, they have superior rights on the roads to people who use untaxed vehicles. That is a wrong-headed position that ignores law and, even more important, can jeopardise the safety of road users. Disputing the terminology is a proxy war.

I suggest that the mods focus on the real problem, and try to stay away from the terminology argument as much as possible. I recognise that the genie is out of the bottle, and they cannot entirely ignore the proxy war. But, as Dades suggests, it boils down to intent. I expect that in some cases the intent of those who object to the term road tax is as wrong as the insistence on using it.

P. Breathnach

Spook_ie wrote: »

... we are in Ireland, the Motor Tax which you pay to use the roads ( therefore it's a road tax ) is allocated to the LGF in it's entirety, the LGF is ring fenced by local government to pay for ( among other things) L class roads, therefore motor tax is required to use the roads as well as providing funding for parts of the network...

My motor tax also supports the local library, and my income tax helps fund the motorways. You cannot establish a direct linkage between the taxes you pay and the things funded out of the public purse.

Steve

Spook_ie wrote: »

But ( and here we go again ) the entire concept of motorists not paying road tax in the UK ( under whatever name ) has been proven, we are in Ireland, the Motor Tax which you pay to use the roads ( therefore it's a road tax ) is allocated to the LGF in it's entirety, the LGF is ring fenced by local government to pay for ( among other things) L class roads, therefore motor tax is required to use the roads as well as providing funding for parts of the network.

So many argue that the motor tax doesn't go towards the roads that the lie has become almost self sustaining and until such time as the revenue from motor tax is diverted away from LGFs or the LGF no longer need maintain local roads then it needs to be pointed out, if that means provoking discussion about the wrong naming of it then so be it, I'll post for the truth!

The LGF also pays for trees in common areas so why not call it a tree tax?
Sorry, your argument is self defeating there.

hullaballoo

According to the Road Traffic Acts and the ancillary legislation, the terms "motor tax" and "road tax" are interchangeable.

It might be down to sloppy legislative drafting, but both are used. In fact, the term is even interchangeable currently within the Dept of Transport. [noparse]http://www.vrt.ie/roadtax.php[/noparse] (one DoT website) vs. https://www.motortax.ie (another DoT website).

It's far from conclusive either way so could this not be dealt with in the usual way: trolling = bad; discussing = good etc?



Edit: what Dades said.

Edit #2: sorry, vrt.ie is not a state website.

humbert

hullaballoo wrote: »

According to the Road Traffic Acts and the ancillary legislation, the terms "motor tax" and "road tax" are interchangeable.

It might be down to sloppy legislative drafting, but both are used. In fact, the term is even interchangeable currently within the Dept of Transport. [noparse]http://www.vrt.ie/roadtax.php[/noparse] (one DoT website) vs. https://www.motortax.ie (another DoT website).

It's far from conclusive either way so could this not be dealt with in the usual way: trolling = bad; discussing = good etc?



Edit: what Dades said.

Edit #2: sorry, vrt.ie is not a state website.

Any of that online? Google failed me. Also love that vrt.ie still have misspelled independent on their homepage.

Overheal

nesf wrote: »

What are you on about? Since when has the name of tax have to be exactly describing what its paying for? I mean, hey, I suppose I get to call PAYE dole tax since that's where most of it goes eh?

This.

90% of my vehicle tax gets contributed to the county school district. The rest goes to roads/fire/administration etc. - it's still a vehicle tax, not an education tax.

Similarly, a cigarette tax is a tax on cigarettes, though much of it is designed to make it into primary care if I'm not mistaken. Its still a cigarette tax, not a primary care tax.

nesf

Overheal wrote: »

This.

90% of my vehicle tax gets contributed to the county school district. The rest goes to roads/fire/administration etc. - it's still a vehicle tax, not an education tax.

Similarly, a cigarette tax is a tax on cigarettes, though much of it is designed to make it into primary care if I'm not mistaken. Its still a cigarette tax, not a primary care tax.

Well, we could repackage everything into one "Dole + Pensions + Public Sector Wages + Some Bit for the Bondholders" Tax which would be kinda handy.

darced

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gozunda

darced wrote: »

Maybe grown adults could get over the use of a simple word,if no one gets offended there is no problem and the troll loses.

I've been calling it road tax for 15 years,everyone I know calls it road tax,everyone I work with calls it road tax,what the hell is the problem?it is really silly season.

It's quite simple really we just need to rebrand Motor tax / Road tax to make it more acceptable to all camps - take Stroke City up north (aka Derry / Londonderry)

So suggestions on a post card please

But first I'll start - let's see- taking the first two letters of each of the first word we get

MORO TAX !

Says it all really ....

Overheal

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

the problem would appear to be the context of the discussions evidently in which this is becoming a problem. A similar example might be the reference to "Death Panels" in the US Healthcare debate, which is just one example of poor twisting of verbiage and meaning designed to further a political angle.

Cookie_Monster

should we call a "driving licence" a "road licence" too then?

LoLth

SeanW wrote: »

Dear boards admins

yes dear boards user?

recently an issue has come to a head (originating, I would argue on the Cycling forum) on the C&T forum and spilled over onto the Feedback forum, that being the now infamous "Mods posting in threads" thread.

so, why did this need a thread of its own? if its the solution to an issue in another thread then it should be posted there *especially* when the other thread is still active.

Basically the dispute is between two groups:

1. A group of users that want to open their boiled eggs at the narrow end
2. A group of people that want to open their eggs at the wide end

To settle the issue once and for all, I suggest that boards needs a road tax rule: preferably specifying that the term road tax is permissable without restriction throughout boards - with the possible exception of the Cycling forum - and that no accusation of "trolling" may stand just because the term is used.

so you want a boards-wide rule set in place to basically make everyone do what you think is the right way to do it. This is a forum-specific issue. If using a term in a specific forum is considered trolling then that term should be listed in the charter as not allowable and the resulting punishment for its use should be stated. Accidentally breaking the rule the first time can be met with nothing more than a "please read the charter" - after that its the users' own fault.

Another alternative of course would be to do what the cyclist hardliners want (see Post 17 in that thread) and ban anyone who uses the term. Needless to say this is not an option I can speak positively of at all, but either way I suggest Boards could provide some clarity.

clarity: if the term you are using is incorrect, then at least be willing to learn the correct term if you wish participate in a conversation (I hate it when people call it Abode Illustrator....). If you are in a conversation and someone uses the wrong term, be patient and don't lose the head over something so incidental. direct them to where the term is defined properly and leave it at that.

this is nothing more than the classic clash of ignorance vs intolerance with the troll cheerleaders on the sidelines having a laugh.

Jack Kyle

A lot of people call it "road tax".

Banning the term is ridiculous.

It suggests that there's a pro cycling agenda at play.

bumper234

Jack Kyle wrote: »

A lot of people call it "road tax".

Banning the term is ridiculous.

It suggests that there's a pro cycling agenda at play.

Exactly.

I don't go near the cycling or motor forums but in every day life i would use the term "road tax" as this is what i have known it as for most of my life. In the same way as i still call the Aviva statdium, Landsdown road and if it upsets a few die hards who get their panties in a twist over words then they really do need to get a life. 550 people killed in Egypt and all we have to worry about is if the correct terminology is road or motor tax :rolleyes: 1st world problems are taking over boards forums.

Pawwed Rig

I don't think the use of a commonly used non profane word should be banned on any forum as it will end up with innocent posters being infracted (it already happens in some forums).
Where the word is being used to troll and wind people up then I would agree with action being taken. The mods of each forum are in the best position to determine which one is the case and if moderation is done in a fair manner then only the trolls will be affected.

Beasty

LoLth wrote: »

so, why did this need a thread of its own? if its the solution to an issue in another thread then it should be posted there *especially* when the other thread is still active.

To be fair this topic was completely de-railing the other Feedback thread and an Admin stepped in to bring it back on track

LoLth wrote: »

This is a forum-specific issue. If using a term in a specific forum is considered trolling then that term should be listed in the charter as not allowable and the resulting punishment for its use should be stated. Accidentally breaking the rule the first time can be met with nothing more than a "please read the charter" - after that its the users' own fault.

This is one of my posts from the other thread

Beasty wrote: »

I will re-iterate though that if a poster decides to come into the Cycling Forum determined to impose that term when they know damn well (either from seeing posts/threads like this, or perhaps via an in-thread warning if they are not familiar with the aggro it may cause) it will wind the regulars up, that poster can expect to be sanctioned for trolling and/or ignoring a mod instruction

The term is not "banned" from the Cycling forum, but as Dades pointed out in another post in that thread, context is key. As I alluded to in the above post if someone is clearly trolling with the term, when they know damn well it will wind posters up, they will be sanctioned. There is no need for any change to the Cycling Forum Charter to accomodate this - posters will not receive cards/bans without some kind of warning.

The issue here is some motorists see the term as giving them some kind of enhanced entitlement to use the road - we often see statements along the lines "Cyclists don't pay road tax" implying they should not be on the road, or have less entitlement to use the road

The standard response is there is no such thing as "road tax" - it's a tax for motorised vehicles only, then it all kicks off. Clearly when we see this pattern emerging we look to try and stop the escalation of another cyclist v motorist argument

LuckyLloyd

I've always heard it expressed in conversation as "road tax" fwiw. I neither cycle nor drive, so don't have a horse in this race but I think the idea that people need to be forced into using legally precise terms is not a precedant that the website wants to set. What's next? We can only refer to the national soccer and rugby stadium as "The Aviva"?

Cabaal

Spook_ie wrote: »

the Motor Tax which you pay to use the roads ( therefore it's a road tax ) is allocated to the LGF in it's entirety, the LGF is ring fenced by local government to pay for ( among other things) L class roads, therefore motor tax is required to use the roads as well as providing funding for parts of the network.

So when are you starting a thread about the tv license fee?

The name is massively inaccurate, you pay it even if you have a dvd recorder or VHS player that has a tunner. Neither of which are TV's,

You seem selective in the names you use,

On other motoring related topics, when is the term "fast lane" going to be banned when referring to motorway lanes?

Loads of people know it as a fast lane, its misleading as hell and frankly dangerous that people think it. Hell, this is a far more important issue then the ban suggested. it could save lives