Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

robopaddy

seananigans wrote: »

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/limerick-hawk-eye-appeal-1055532-Aug2013/

hope this distraction lasts until kick off :-)

Its not doing our lads any favours either in fairness... there has to be a real possibility that the game wont go ahead as planned on AI day at this stage? That would be a shame especially for the Waterford lads who have basically been innocent spectators in all this I know the DRA is the final part of the process so hopefully a line will be drawn under it. If not I think someone from Limerick needs to stand up and say its time to forget about it and move on.

If it was Waterford id feel the exact same way. I think theres no point prolonging this saga any further. Limerick have had a good year with the Munster minor ans senior double. Its only a game at the end of the day. No one has died.

lovelypoint

seananigans wrote: »

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/limerick-hawk-eye-appeal-1055532-Aug2013/

hope this distraction lasts until kick off :-)

Heard that on wlr this morning. So hypothetically, if Limerick win the appeal, that means they play Galway probably this weekend, and then ourselves in the final the following weekend ?

lovelypoint

robopaddy wrote: »

there has to be a real possibility that the game wont go ahead as planned on AI day at this stage?

If that happens, I would be mightily unimpressed if we acquiesce to such a fixture change..

Mountainlad

robopaddy wrote: »

Its not doing our lads any favours either in fairness... there has to be a real possibility that the game wont go ahead as planned on AI day at this stage? That would be a shame especially for the Waterford lads who have basically been innocent spectators in all this I know the DRA is the final part of the process so hopefully a line will be drawn under it. If not I think someone from Limerick needs to stand up and say its time to forget about it and move on.

If it was Waterford id feel the exact same way. I think theres no point prolonging this saga any further. Limerick have had a good year with the Munster minor ans senior double. Its only a game at the end of the day. No one has died.

I really can't see the All-ireland minor final not taking place the same day as the Senior as in theory the GAA would have to lower their prices for Senior final as it represents less value than previous years.

Also there'll be those from Waterford who already have their tickets and so it creates a huge mess for them. And realistically I don't think there's anyway we;'ll be talking a bout a Galway v Limerick replay this weekend, whatever about the initial appeal Limerick's County board should have dropped it at this stage, seriously bad form.

robopaddy

Mountainlad wrote: »

I really can't see the All-ireland minor final not taking place the same day as the Senior as in theory the GAA would have to lower their prices for Senior final as it represents less value than previous years.

Also there'll be those from Waterford who already have their tickets and so it creates a huge mess for them. And realistically I don't think there's anyway we;'ll be talking a bout a Galway v Limerick replay this weekend, whatever about the initial appeal Limerick's County board should have dropped it at this stage, seriously bad form.

The DRA is an expensive process but Im hearing its JP McManus backing all this.... wed be after dropping it by now anyway because quite simply we wouldnt have the moolas! But for them money is not an object so I guess they feel they might aswell make the GAA sweat.

But like you say, its not great. were all the GAA family at the end of the day

PTH2009

If the limerick vs Galway game did get replayed (possible date this weekend or Sat 7th Sep) could they play the final as warm up to the under 21 final on Sat 14th September.

it would only happen to Waterford that the match wont be on all ireland final day lol

Still cant see there been a replay

Deskjockey

Limerick should just give it up at this stage,there is always going to be an element of human error in sport, its actually unsportsmanlike continuing on with this **** at this stage

Horseboxhead

I have to disagree with all of the above, as we are being blinkered by the fact that this is an inconvenience to us, and all the talk that this will mean we won't be playing on all ireland final day , jesus sometimes i wonder about the rubbish on here, Limerick will not get their replay, no matter what they do, but you have to respect them for trying, typical gaa that we say ah well human error, or what do they expect, i think they expect what we should all be expecting, fair play, if the roles were reversed and it happened to us, this place would be burned down with the amount of flag burning hyperbole , condemning everyone from brian cowen to george bush, i fully support limericks right to do what their doing, as other counties have done this in the past re sendings off, and the like, so why should thay not now stand behind their minor team that deserves to be in a minor final far more than we do[we lost twice], so all this ****e about letting it go, and bad sports man ship absolute crap.

hardybuck

The GAA will not award Limerick a replay as a precedent may be set, which would terrify them.

I've been at plenty of Munster Championship games in Cork and Thurles where questionable decisions went were made. Particularly with Cork, as they have a huge amount of fans on the terrace making noise which influences umpires.

No mention has been made of the very soft free that Limerick were awarded at the end of normal time which levelled the game. That could be classed as human error of a different type by the referee.

lovelypoint

hardybuck wrote: »

That could be classed as human error of a different type by the referee.

Yes, 'error'..

robopaddy

Horseboxhead wrote: »

I have to disagree with all of the above, as we are being blinkered by the fact that this is an inconvenience to us, and all the talk that this will mean we won't be playing on all ireland final day , jesus sometimes i wonder about the rubbish on here, Limerick will not get their replay, no matter what they do, but you have to respect them for trying, typical gaa that we say ah well human error, or what do they expect, i think they expect what we should all be expecting, fair play, if the roles were reversed and it happened to us, this place would be burned down with the amount of flag burning hyperbole , condemning everyone from brian cowen to george bush, i fully support limericks right to do what their doing, as other counties have done this in the past re sendings off, and the like, so why should thay not now stand behind their minor team that deserves to be in a minor final far more than we do[we lost twice], so all this ****e about letting it go, and bad sports man ship absolute crap.

If it was Waterford Id say the exact same thing, its over. done. Move on. S*it happens.

As a neutral Im nearly as embarrassed for Limerick as I am for all other parties concerned at this stage

tight at the back

any word on new Waterford manager ?

Ballyvoile Boy

Horseboxhead wrote: »

I have to disagree with all of the above, as we are being blinkered by the fact that this is an inconvenience to us, and all the talk that this will mean we won't be playing on all ireland final day , jesus sometimes i wonder about the rubbish on here, Limerick will not get their replay, no matter what they do, but you have to respect them for trying, typical gaa that we say ah well human error, or what do they expect, i think they expect what we should all be expecting, fair play, if the roles were reversed and it happened to us, this place would be burned down with the amount of flag burning hyperbole , condemning everyone from brian cowen to george bush, i fully support limericks right to do what their doing, as other counties have done this in the past re sendings off, and the like, so why should thay not now stand behind their minor team that deserves to be in a minor final far more than we do[we lost twice], so all this ****e about letting it go, and bad sports man ship absolute crap.

I have to agree with most of this. If we were in the situation Limerick find themselves in, how would we now be feeling? We'd be giving out yards, saying that we always get a raw deal in Munster, our county board don't care etc. etc.

The reality is Limerick have a very real grievance here. Umpires (and therefore ref) give a point, Hawkeye calls ref and decide they can prove it was a miss. Limerick do not get their win in normal time as a result of the 'proof' provided by Hawkeye. Galway go on to win in 'extra time'. Hawkeye later come out and say on tv they can now prove it was after all a score, that they configured the system wrongly and therefore gave the review official and ref the wrong decision. This is not subjective stuff like a tv replay - it's proof.

To be fair to Limerick, they haven't looked for the match to be awarded to them, they just want a replay. Don't forget that there is a relatively recent precedent for awarding a replay in an All-Ireland hurling semi-final, when it was PROVEN that a serious error had been made by match officials. The year was 1998 and Clare, the team who had been awarded the match were ahead of Offaly by 3 points at the time. The ref blew the whistle with 2 minutes of normal time to go. The Offaly fans sat on the pitch and made their feelings known. Replay awarded (Clare were magnanimous about the replay to be fair).

What is not in Limerick's favour going on to the DRA, is the confused wording of the GAA Hawkeye protocol (extract) from gaa.ie:

http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/1/1505131233-how-hawk-eye-scoring-technology-will-work/


What happens if Umpire does not make a decision?

Where Umpire does not indicate that a point has been scored and the play continues:

1. Review Official communicates to Referee that a Hawk-Eye review is necessary
2. Referee stops play
3. Referee makes a ‘box’ signal with his hands to seek Hawk-Eye review
4. The Hawk-Eye replay is shown on the Big Screen
5. Referee confirms Hawk-Eye decision and awards a ‘point’. Umpire signals the decision.

What happens if Referee seeks Hawk-Eye review of an Umpire decision?
Where Umpire makes an incorrect decision regarding a ‘point’ or ‘wide’:

1. Umpire makes incorrect decision (i.e. ‘point’ or ‘wide’)
2. Review Official communicates to Referee that a Hawk-Eye review is necessary
3. Referee makes a ‘box’ signal with his hands to seek Hawk-Eye review
4. The Hawk-Eye replay is shown on the Big Screen
5. Referee confirms Hawk-Eye decision and makes the appropriate decision. Umpire signals that decision.

The first scenario above makes sense. In step 5 of the first scenario, the ref has no discretion it seems. The second scenario has contradictions in it and actually describes 2 separate scenarios:


The review official and the referee are not one and the same person. One sits in the Hawkeye room and the other is in the middle of the pitch. It is not clear who is questioning the validity of the point - the ref or the review official. The headline and bullet point 2 are 2 different scenarios. Admittedly, this is probably just an oversight and both scenarios can occur.


Where things differ is in point 5 of the second scenario above. In the first scenario, Hawkeye makes a decision and the ref merely communicates it. In the second scenario, Hawkeye makes a decision and then the ref decides whether to accept that decision - ie decides whether he believes Hawkeye to be accurate or not.


This is where the Limerick appeal gets shaky in my opinion. In their particular scenario above, the ref decides whether to accept the Hawkeye decision or not. It appears he did and therefore the final decision rested with the referee (and not Hawkeye).


The frustrating thing for Limerick is that a referee is hardly going to overrule Hawkeye from the middle of the pitch - ever. The ruling of the CCCC etc is technically correct in my opinion, as the ref (in theory) had the option to overrule Hawkeye and didn't. Rule 7.10 (n) “No objection or counter-objection maybe submitted on grounds that a referee had incorrectly allowed or failed to allow a score.”


Not much solace for the Limerick youngsters though and not much natural justice for them. Their disadvantage was that the match was being held in Croke Park, where Hawkeye is (was) God - anywhere else and they would perhaps have won in normal time.



I disagree with the notion that Waterford deserve to be in the final any less than any other team. We may have had an interesting journey, but absolutely deserve to be there on the big day.

Mountainlad

It's hard to credit really the amount of people that post here that start their arguments with "the sh*t thats posted on here".

Why would you keep reading it if you thought it was all nonsense?

And horseboxhead, should we all be up an arms so when a referee gives a crucial free, or doesn't give us a penalty, or allows a square ball goal that decides a match, and then go seeking a replay?

At this rate, they'll still be looking ffor a replay after the All-ireland final is played :rolleyes:

deiseach

I don't mind Limerick trying to get this overturned, everyone is entitled to due process and I don't see how it is putting us out. And it's true that if this were Waterford I'd be crying hot tears of frustration at what happened. But if it were Waterford I wouldn't expect anyone to come to me looking for a dispassionate analysis of the situation. With that in mind, I don't see the basis on which Limerick expect to get this overturned. Is it because the match finished level at full-time? In that case, if there are been no extra time would they be demanding to be awarded the game? Or is it just because mistake was made, in which case it doesn't matter if there was no points or twenty points between the teams at the final whistle, all shall get replays. The GAA simply can't countenance a replay. Officials, which now includes Hawk Eye, made a mistake. Mistakes by officials cannot be rectified after the fact. If Louth couldn't get Martin Sludden's absolutely scandalous decision at the end of the 2010 Leinster final overturned, there is no hope for Limerick.

Incidentally, the outcome of the Clare-Offaly debacle could plausibly be put down to events close to us in Waterford. The rule book states that if a game is not finished for any reason then there is a replay, but the rule book was thinking of weather or a player keeling over on the field, not a sit-in after the ref whistled up too early. There really should have been some latitude with respect to Clare leading by three points at the time the match was abandoned. However, Clare had made a big song and dance after the Munster final replay that the rule book was sacrosanct, that if Colin Lynch wasn't red-carded at the time of his thistle-cutting display before the throw-in there was no way he should be punished ultra vires. Having staked so much on Colin Lynch's victim status, to the point (if memory serves me correct) of putting off all club matches in the county until after he had served his suspension, they could hardly then claim that an exception could be made for them. Broke me heart, so it did

robopaddy

tight at the back wrote: »

any word on new Waterford manager ?

A lot of people not too enthused about this particular subject after whats gone on the last few weeks. Not bothered myself really at the moment.

Derek McGrath it would seem is the front runner.

lovelypoint

Ballyvoile Boy wrote: »

If we were in the situation Limerick find themselves in, how would we now be feeling?

Personally, I would be feeling we had our chance and simply did not do enough to win the game. Limerick lost a point from hawkeye, and gained one from the ref at the end. Any wrong by hawkeye was balanced by the soft free the ref gave at the death.

If anything, Galway have cause for a major grievance here, with the interruption to their preparation with all this, and could even argue they were hard done by with the ref awarding a soft free at a critical point in the game to nullify the hawkeye point from a much less critical point of the game.

There have been great injustices, but this is not one of them. To me, this is the desperate efforts of a county board to get their team into a final they had their chance of being in, but simply left it behind them on the field.

deiseach

lovelypoint wrote: »

There have been great injustices, but this is not one of them. To me, this is the desperate efforts of a county board to get their team into a final they had their chance of being in, but simply left it behind them on the field.

I wonder whether Limerick are running with this out of a sense of desperation after losing both semi-finals on the day. It would take the wind out of anyone's sails.

Deise Vu

It is only tangentally a Waterford GAA topic but my view on the Limerick saga is the correct moral outcome would probably have been an immediate offer of a replay from Galway (the boot will inevitably be on the other foot some time in the future). However, since that was not forthcoming Limerick need to accept it and move on.

I am gutted for the Limerick players, particularly those for whom this is the pinnacle of their careers, but that's life. For the GAA to allow the appeal would effectively be saying they allowed Limerick have a free go at winning the first day with a right to appeal if defeated, and that can't be right either.

lovelypoint

deiseach wrote: »

I wonder whether Limerick are running with this out of a sense of desperation after losing both semi-finals on the day. It would take the wind out of anyone's sails.

Perhaps, although I suspect it is most likely the crusade of the county board or someone on it, perhaps for your very reason above. I would find it hard to believe that the minor team, management and genuine hurling folk in Limerick actually feel the hawkeye point was what cost them victory.

deiseach

lovelypoint wrote: »

Perhaps, although I suspect it is most likely the crusade of the county board or someone on it, perhaps for your very reason above. I would find it hard to believe that the minor team, management and genuine hurling folk in Limerick actually feel the hawkeye point was what cost them victory.

Aye, it went from "We took it in good faith that it was wide and we didn't dwell on it, we just moved on" immediately after the game to "The mood is traumatic amongst the players, their parents and anyone involved in Limerick minor hurling" by the following Thursday. I wonder whether someone is going on a solo run here, there can't be a universal belief in Limerick that this is the right course of action.

Mountainlad

deiseach wrote: »

Aye, it went from "We took it in good faith that it was wide and we didn't dwell on it, we just moved on" immediately after the game to "The mood is traumatic amongst the players, their parents and anyone involved in Limerick minor hurling" by the following Thursday. I wonder whether someone is going on a solo run here, there can't be a universal belief in Limerick that this is the right course of action.

The problem when you have co-managers I suppose.

But seriously "the mood is traumatic", f*ck off like nobody died. Really annoying me now this whole thing :mad:

As if making the players train when they have no hope of winning the appeal is very considerate of them either.

robopaddy

Mountainlad wrote: »

The problem when you have co-managers I suppose.

But seriously "the mood is traumatic", f*ck off like nobody died. Really annoying me now this whole thing :mad:

As if making the players train when they have no hope of winning the appeal is very considerate of them either.

that was trainer Jerry Wallace. hes a bit outspoken and tends to be a bit OTT with comments in general. Hes actually a Corkman who was just brought in to train them so and youd wonder what his alterior motive is. I wouldnt pay much heed to him anyway

premierstone

robopaddy wrote: »

that was trainer Jerry Wallace. hes a bit outspoken and tends to be a bit OTT with comments in general. Hes actually a Corkman who was just brought in to train them so and youd wonder what his alterior motive is. I wouldnt pay much heed to him anyway

Bought in morelike and I assume the man who is paying him is

a) bankrolling this little charade through the appeal committees: and

b) offering a nice little bonus should an AI be won on top of the ludicrous wages that has already been payed to him.

seananigans

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/donal-og-cusack-waterford-1056812-Aug2013/

Mountainlad

seananigans wrote: »

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/donal-og-cusack-waterford-1056812-Aug2013/

"BREAKING NEWs: No developments in Waterford manager hunt"

tight at the back

any truth that they are talking to someone in the limerick setup ?

suitcasepink

tight at the back wrote: »

any truth that they are talking to someone in the limerick setup ?

Hopefully its McManus

PTH2009

http://www.hoganstand.com/Waterford/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=199798

so some genuine supporters that travel to almost every waterford hurling game have no chance of getting a ticket for the final. Ah well have to watch it in the pub or somewhere or hope that someone could put tickets up on donedeal or somewhere like that

robopaddy

PTH2009 wrote: »

http://www.hoganstand.com/Waterford/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=199798

so some genuine supporters that travel to almost every waterford hurling game have no chance of getting a ticket for the final. Ah well have to watch it in the pub or somewhere or hope that someone could put tickets up on donedeal or somewhere like that

There WILL be tickets around on the day no doubt about that, if your the type to travel up off the cuff and take your chances if you want them badly enough you will get one. but trying to source them out on time for the minor match will be the challenge.