Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

Slobbery

Newson123 wrote: »

It's not just the result, it's the embarrassment that they bring the county and the supporters. No other team makes a fool of their county quite like our team does. It shouldn't be acceptable. It wouldn't be acceptable anywhere else, but it's been acceptable here for a long time.

The manager should look at the game again, choose the worst, say, 7 players (the more high profile the better) and tell them to go home and try and make the team again next year. He should pick the next best in the county and give them a chance for the rest of the year. This is a specific problem that we have - complete collapse - and the only way of sorting it, is by getting rid of the players who do the collapsing. Let the entire team know, if they do it, they're gone.

Ok so we get rid of our seven more high profile players, than if we collapse again we get rid of the 7 most high profile players and so on and so forth until we win the All-Ireland!! we would be fool's not to do it!

Newson123

Slobbery wrote: »

Ok so we get rid of our seven more high profile players, than if we collapse again we get rid of the 7 most high profile players and so on and so forth until we win the All-Ireland!! we would be fool's not to do it!

We are not going to win an all-Ireland anyway. We don't have a hope if we continue as we are. If we did manage to reach an all-Ireland final against Kilkenny or Clare, we'd lose, just as we did today. This is what we do.

I said that we need to drop them now and tell them to try and win back their place for next year. Something has to be done to demonstrate that the performance was unacceptable. It's not the last few managers or this manager that are the problem, it's the players and their mentality. Drop them, simple as that. Show them that you have no choice but to fight if you get to play for Waterford.

Newson123

Slobbery wrote: »

Ok so we get rid of our seven more high profile players, than if we collapse again we get rid of the 7 most high profile players and so on and so forth until we win the All-Ireland!! we would be fool's not to do it!

We are not going to win an all-Ireland anyway. We don't have a hope if we continue as we are. If we did manage to reach an all-Ireland final against Kilkenny or Clare, we'd lose by 20 odd points. This is what we do.

I said that we need to drop them now and tell them to try and win back their place for next year. Something has to be done to demonstrate that the performance was unacceptable. It's not the last few managers or this manager that are the problem, it's the players and their mentality. Drop them, simple as that. Show them that you have no choice but to fight if you get to play for Waterford.

Straight Talker

That wasn't the real Waterford out there at all.I just hope any criticisms will be fair minded and that people won't be bringing agendas to the table.This Waterford team is in a very early stage of it's development.Their probably at the stage where Clare were about three years ago right now.It was a good performance by Cork but i was disappointed that they didn't score some goals.We'll have a better idea about where Cork are at after the Clare game.For whatever reason Waterford were a shambles today but i expect them to pick themselves up and i think they are well capable of doing some damage in the qualifiers.

Newson123

Straight Talker wrote: »

That wasn't the real Waterford out there at all.

It clearly was the real Waterford. These were the very same players that played last week.

There's nothing particularly unusual about what happened either. It's happened many times before.

robopaddy

Straight Talker wrote: »

That wasn't the real Waterford out there at all.I just hope any criticisms will be fair minded and that people won't be bringing agendas to the table.This Waterford team is in a very early stage of it's development.Their probably at the stage where Clare were about three years ago right now.It was a good performance by Cork but i was disappointed that they didn't score some goals.We'll have a better idea about where Cork are at after the Clare game.For whatever reason Waterford were a shambles today but i expect them to pick themselves up and i think they are well capable of doing some damage in the qualifiers.

Completely inept performance. No excuse for it. No positives to take from it whatsoever. The only hope we have going forward was the performance of the drawn game.

I would personally have huge reservations about this management but also some of these players need to have a look at themselves. Some of the players who were behind getting rid of skully ryan have simply not performed at all this year. I dont know whether the pressure of the action they took is weighing heavily on them or what but a few players I was expecting to see come out this year with all guns blazing have been very disappointing. I was led to beleive that some lads were happy to have the man they wanted in charge. They dont exactly seem to be 'running through walls' for him yet anyway. Im not 'pro' or 'anti' anyone but I think it does need to be said after a performance like that. They made their decision but if they haven't backed up their ambitions by performing on the pitch they should expect stick for it.

cul beag

Simply gutted after that collapse yesterday. Genuinely thought we would at least be competitive with them but we never looked as if we had a shape to the team,nor a game plan it looked terrible. So many players disappointed yesterday and i do agree with whatever poster said that McGrath has this blind allegiance to certain players that can't be touched. How many more chances is Brian O Sullivan going to get? He clearly isn't the man to be played as the lone striker but is given more chances it's laughable at this stage!
Barron and darragh Fives were named on the bench but I'm presuming weren't fully fit or would surely have seen action so why name them in the first place? No Donnelly named either? Why? Great to see Maurice back but surely it was too soon for that step? Barry and Breathnach see no game time as both were poor in the drawn game but yet they put on 2 over 30's whose legs are clearly gone in an act of desperation to try to get goals! When do both these fellas get a run of championship games like the "favorites" that are being chosen so as to build confidence instead of having to be looking over their shoulders everytime the board goes up for substitutions? Clearly Nagle is struggling for pace at this level,was shown up big time again yesterday but he still starts and the only reason we saw paudie Prendergast was because of noel Connors injury. Credit to Colin Dunford for his persistence,reputations mean nothing to him by the looks of it and never stopped working and harassing cork defenders even when he was clearly injured. Jake is struggling for confidence and match fitness since his injury and the persistence with Shane Walsh is another baffling decision.
Credit,and large amounts of it to Socky. They say you need to be mad to be playing on goal but he his clearly one of the bravest I've seen to do what he did yesterday. Add on top of that his top class saves,he can clearly hold his head up along with Shane Fives also. Aussie was always going to be closely watched but he can be happy enough with his contribution of 3 pts from play.
Clearly there's some serious soul searching to be done and the blinkers need to be taken off for the next day or we'll be looking to the minors and u21 to give us something to cheer about for the year.
Paudie Mahony struggled from open play and to be honest looked to be labouring when having to defend the cork backs breaking out with the ball. Shane O Sullivan,another favorite that clearly can't be substituted and whom was clearly outclassed yesterday is persisted with in the middle of the field where maybe he might have been better utilised at wing back instead of Nagle.
I'm beginning to think McGrath needs some outsider,with no allegiance to the county,to sit in the stand and call it as he he sees it and make those hard calls because clearly they're not being made and until such time as this happens its backwards we're going.

Gary Neville

Neither of the games was a true reflection on where both teams are, at this stage. The reality is probably somewhere in between.

Cork were so poor on the first day, that it raised expectations of Waterford Supporters to totally unrealistic levels. Cork are well advanced in their development having played in 2 AI finals and have a very experienced management set-up. Fitness, strength and conditioning seems to have been brought to the required level.

Waterford, in contrast, are just starting out. It's going to take time to get anywhere near the required level but the drawn game shows that there is serious potential there. Lads like Gleeson and Dunford are going to be some players and there has to be many more coming through. Shane Fives is a quality player and apparently Darragh is as good, if not better. Losing Connors was a massive blow too.

If Waterford can get a decent run at the qualifiers, then they'll gain valuable experience. IMO, Waterford will be back competing for honours in a year or two.

3ships

Miwadi and Biscuits in Derek McGrath's house today

Professey Chin

culbaire wrote: »

I like the way some people here assume that our backline is solid. It is nothing of the sort. Cork forwards roamed all over the place today often ten metres from the Waterford backs who should be picking them up. Backs today were easily rounded and caught for speed. Couldn't even tackle properly in many cases. When you see players half heartedly sticking out hurleys you know we have big problems. We have huge weaknesses all over the field. Some of the players have definitely lost pace. The training regime is WRONG, WRONG,WRONG. It is DIRECTIONLESS!! It is twenty years behind the times.

Our backline is solid when we play in a standard formation and each man knows who hes supposed to be on. Whats happening is this complete horsesh1t of constantly being defensive and dropping deep causes crowding and nobody knows who hes supposed to look after and we end up time and time again with 3 players going for 1 ball.
These tactics got us 2 absolute hammerings in the league and it looks like nothing was learned. Aimless balls into corners when we're playing with 1 or maybe 2 forwards in there so theyre just mopped up by the corner backs and sent straight back at us. Repeatedly overplaying the ball with nobody willing to just put it over the bar. And it looks like they dont even practice shooting in training. Just handpass, handpass, handpass

Deise Doodler

3ships wrote: »

we have at the back but I see Maurice and Daragh Fives as 2 that can lead from front but not fit of course. Jake Dillon I hope can step up.

With the exception of the two Sullivan's the team that started yesterday deserved their place, but after yesterday they have a lot of questions to ask themselves, Didn't expect anything from B o Sullivan again and SOS rarely contributes to any thing more than 20 min before disappearing. yet neither will ever be substituted
High ball on to Seamus was not a plan be but an act of desperation, if it is something they work on it training then where are the runners to support him?

yes I believe Maurice has a bit of fight in him (along with D Fives) but Maurice is a big confidence player and we continually play him in the full forward line that dose not allow him to get into the game

Numerous time yesterday we seemed un willing or unable to but the ball over the bar from distance that to me stinks to a lack of shooting practice due to an over worked game plan of working the ball up, I don't have a problem with having a game plan but ye have to be able to take scores from anywhere if the opportunity arises


Finally I think this nice & nice controlled approach fro management is not getting the players fired up enough think it might be time for a bit of table banging and home truths

blueflame

Would have to agree wholeheartedly with the majority of what has been said.

Our tactics are naive to say the least, we drop our full forward deep trying to isolate the full forward on the full back. This only works if you have a number of things, these being

1. You have a full forward with pace and aggression and a willingness to take punishment to get inside
2. The corner backs have to follow the corner forwards out
3. The corner forwards have to be willing to bust a gut to get in in support of the full forward when the ball arrives.
4. There has to be good quality ball delivered into the full forward.

At times it worked yesterday, we created two very good goal chances early one, Aussie should have released the ball to Brian O'Sullivan, but i will not be too hard on his because he is young and after his goal the last day. Brian O'Sullivan should have either cut back the way to create a better angle for the shot or set up the forward inside for a tap in (think it was Dunford) This one I find harder to forgive because Sullivan with his experience should have known better.

That aside we got plenty of good ball into the full forward position but too many times the wrong man was in there and he got eased off the ball - not good enough at this level end. Our corner forwards were pulled to deep and two wide to be of any support. The other big problem with pulling out the corner forwards was when we crowded the Cork half back the last day, they were blocked and hooked trying to make clearances under pressure, yesterday on so many occasions they just played the sliothar back the way to their full back line who in acres of space were able to hit measured clearances into space and exploit weakness such as Nagle's pace.

Our midfield was non existent. I wish Sully would stop constantly bringing the ball into contact, throwing his arms in the air and looking for easy frees which a referee like Mr Ryan was never going to give. We lost our shape badly and Cork seemed to have acres of space all over the place.

What is it with out shooting, do we not practice enough, yesterday Jake picked up a ball 55 meters out, straight in front of the posts, a tap over for a player of his ability, instead he steadied himself and hits a ball into the corner where there was not Waterford player in sight. was this a pre-agreed strategy or a lack of confidence. This was just one example.

We shot so many wides yesterday it was unbelievable.

The management team need to wake up and smell the coffee.

This pulling back forwards did not work under Davy and it is not working under Derek. We have tried it three times and got our ars..s kicked on each occasion. Pilling back bodies is not defending as often no one goes for the ball or three go for the one ball. How many times did this happen yesterday.

Our fitness seems a shambles, many of our forwards are lacking in confidence, our shape is all over the place and this has to be the responsibility of the management. Trying something new is fine by me, if it doesn't work the first time, by all means teak it and try again, but for God sake if it blows op in your face the second time, don't try it a third time.

Nine points down at half time and we pullback an extra defender. Grow a pair lads and let our players express themselves, show a bit of confidence in those lads willing to work and fight and take blows, Colin Dunford and Austin Gleeson for me showed guts yesterday, two young lads who got a lot of special attention and still kept going, willing to take the hard blows. On the other side of the coin, don't be afraid to drop those who seem to take the easy option of getting there just too late to make a challenge, or just don't manage to get their hands on the ball.

As regards the players, a lot of them were instrumental in getting rid of the last Management and Fitness Team. time to live by that decision now and show some courage. Yesterday we saw Socks literally put his life on the line to charge down a penalty, if that does not inspire others then what will. Incidentally for anyone who watched the Sunday Game last night, thought is was disgraceful the way the whole talk of the penalty save focused on the potential danger to Anthony Nash and the legality of players rushing him, rather than the danger to the advancing player being hit form about 5 years with a missile.

On a final note, I believe strongly in this panel of players especially if we can get them all fit. These young lads have grown yup without any fear of opposing teams, I wish our Management would buy into this belief and stop employing totally negative tactics that says, "we do not believe" .

Time to learn for your mistakes lads, and sooner rather than later before it is too late.

Brad1234

Very Disappointing yesterday.. How we give up the ghost so easily when we are getting bet is the thing that really annoys me and this isn't a reaction to yesterday traditionally we have no fight whatsoever.. Even the great sides of last 15 years when we are bad we're awful and have no stomach to hang in through a tough spell whatsoever.

When Cork slipped a few points up from about the 20 minute mark yesterday i was hoping we'd dig in and try to stay in touch at half time but not a chance.. Even when you see the Celebration for Soks penalty save and the ball went over i was thinking do they not realise they're 9 points down..

Going through the team full back line did alright couldn't really knock them.. Half back line was very poor as unit.. Why did Mcgrath try to be clever and switch Brick with Moran both didnt work... Midfield very poor, Walsh and Kearney hit some ball throughout.

Problem with the forwards is the style they are trying to play that if it breakdown it looks a mess and there is no leader up there to pull them around the pitch and get them back into positions.. They spent most of the game running around completely losing there shape and defenders were so much under the cosh that they just banged balls to get it away from there area.. Basically the system went out the window as they are lost there minds and composure which is no excuse but not surprising with young players.

It is a complete Development job when you consider most of the forwards we rely on are 22 or below so i wouldn't lose faith or call for McGraths head but from the signs so far he is incredibly slow to make a change and the leaving on of certain guys no matter what is silly on his behalf because that's the stick he will be poked with after such a heavy defeat even though its all well and good taking them off but he threw in a load of fresh faces the last day and none had any form of an impact.. Throwing in guys just back from Injury yesterday would have been absolutely brainless so at least they're fit for the next game..

Of the guys to come back id have Darragh Fives once he proves his fitness at centre back as he is currently our best and id have brick out the middle and push moran to wing back because in a central position he kills you as he has no work ethic bar the lose ball and at wing back he hurls so freely there its almost like the half forward marks him.. Id have Molumphy out with brick in the middle as they both read the game so well push shane sull to half forward for some sort of aeriel ability on a puck out then the rest of the forwards at present pick themselves due to us clearly having very little up there..

Ryan Donnelly is a good prospect but is no superstar and should be left to see how he goes for the u21s like Bennett to see how hes development is coming along.. There is no quick fix to this and people need patience however the lack of fight yesterday and going forward needs to be addressed.

blue note

Slobbery wrote: »

Ok so we get rid of our seven more high profile players, than if we collapse again we get rid of the 7 most high profile players and so on and so forth until we win the All-Ireland!! we would be fool's not to do it!

I don't think that's going far enough. Get rid of the entire panel and management. Start with anyone who's performed at the highest level and get rid of them. Then move onto the guys who have done well at underage and senior club level. Then get rid of the guys who were really passengers on good teams.

Eventually, when you get rid of enough, I'll start centre back for us. It's a bit of a step up from Junior F, but it's worth a shot.

Slobbery

To play the system we are trying you need pace and lots of it, you need a marquee forward to spear head the attack, a Mullane. A guy who can win 30:70 ball, turn take a belt and get a score or win a free, you need guys who can score from distance all over the field.

We aren't ticking these boxes...

If I were a manager against waterford I would let them crowd the middle and hold my six backs in position and say let them have it out there because they will put it wide anyway

Gary Neville

blue note wrote: »

I don't think that's going far enough. Get rid of the entire panel and management. Start with anyone who's performed at the highest level and get rid of them. Then move onto the guys who have done well at underage and senior club level. Then get rid of the guys who were really passengers on good teams.

Eventually, when you get rid of enough, I'll start centre back for us. It's a bit of a step up from Junior F, but it's worth a shot.

Mullane should be dropped too. He hasn't done anything in ages.

hardybuck

As we're so fond of comparing ourselves to Kilkenny, how do we keep ending up with players who find it difficult to win their own ball?

I don't think you'd be considered for their squad if you weren't capable of winning dirty hard fought possession.

We seem to be developing a lot of lighter, smaller forwards in particular who would be blown out of it by a lot of teams.

Slobbery

blue note wrote: »

I don't think that's going far enough. Get rid of the entire panel and management. Start with anyone who's performed at the highest level and get rid of them. Then move onto the guys who have done well at underage and senior club level. Then get rid of the guys who were really passengers on good teams.

Eventually, when you get rid of enough, I'll start centre back for us. It's a bit of a step up from Junior F, but it's worth a shot.

We need to mix things up even more, from now on - No Hurleys, we will take the bastards on with the largest kitchen utensils money can buy

Professey Chin

Slobbery wrote: »

If I were a manager against waterford I would let them crowd the middle and hold my six backs in position and say let them have it out there because they will put it wide anyway

This is exactly whats happening but our line doesnt seem to realise it and tries again and again. It might work against weaker teams but any team who can use space intelligently will tear you apart

hardybuck

Slobbery wrote: »

To play the system we are trying you need pace and lots of it, you need a marquee forward to spear head the attack, a Mullane. A guy who can win 30:70 ball, turn take a belt and get a score or win a free, you need guys who can score from distance all over the field.

We aren't ticking these boxes...

If I were a manager against waterford I would let them crowd the middle and hold my six backs in position and say let them have it out there because they will put it wide anyway

The other argument is that if you don't have six quality forwards, why play six forwards? It's not a particularly complicated or uncommon tactic, but like so many areas, we don't have the players to enforce it as well as a team like Clare.

Slobbery

It is obvious that the right things are being done in the county to develop underage players, we just didn't start it on time to replace the mullanes and ken mcgraths of this world.

It's not like we are on the road to becoming the next Offaly, we may have a few summers of pain, but in a few years time we will be serious contenders again, we just have to build a new team it's going take time for the new lads to establish themselves

Professey Chin

hardybuck wrote: »

The other argument is that if you don't have six quality forwards, why play six forwards? It's not a particularly complicated or uncommon tactic, but like so many areas, we don't have the players to enforce it as well as a team like Clare.

We have more then 6 players id class as quality forwards which theyve shown when they're allowed actually be forwards. Having 1 or 2 of them isolated while the rest are glorified midfielders getting in each others way helps nobody.

Slobbery

hardybuck wrote: »

The other argument is that if you don't have six quality forwards, why play six forwards? It's not a particularly complicated or uncommon tactic, but like so many areas, we don't have the players to enforce it as well as a team like Clare.

What you need is the guys outside to be causing damage, than it's decision time for the other management, do they send out a back thereby creating more space and opportunity for our out numbered forwards or they withdraw a forward of there own, if the guys out the middle aren't causing damage by taking long range scores or by carrying the ball at pace to create overlaps in the forwards than the whole thing short circuits...

Professey Chin

See the picture going around of SOKs bruise from blocking the shot?
Headcase :pac:

Jjjjjjjbarry

Very poor performance yesterday from Waterford. No point crowding the middle when you're down and the forwards who are left in can't win a ball. Don't want to name names but our forwards were crap in general and one or two of the backs caught badly for pace.

Surely Gavin O'Brien is worth a run out? Always impressed from the little I've seen of him where as another young player has yet again failed to impress despite getting a regular start.

Waterford seemed sluggish yesterday. Second to the ball constantly. That combined with so many tiring and cramping the first day makes me wonder what kind of training they are doing? Maybe somehow geared around reaching peak fitness later in the year. The only (nice) explanation I can think of.

Fair play to SOK for bravery and some great saves.

Terrible turnout from Waterford fans yet again yesterday. Cork would have won from the crowds cheers alone. The rebel yell was deafening!

deisedude

Professey Chin wrote: »

See the picture going around of SOKs bruise from blocking the shot?
Headcase :pac:

Here it is for anyone who hasn't seen it

O Riain

Professey Chin wrote: »

See the picture going around of SOKs bruise from blocking the shot?
Headcase :pac:

I can only imagine, I got a smack of a ball close range before and it looked like i'd been hit by a bazooka. The guy hit that was no anthony nash and it wasn't a penalty so I'd say he is seriously hurting.

Good thing it didn't hit him in the goonies!

deisedude

I know they are only kids but the behaviour of the Cork juveniles yesterday was disgraceful booing the Waterford primary school kid players as they walked past them.

conditioned games

It's been a terrible year for the county team so far. The management team and players badly need to sit down and access are they doing the right type of training. Support play for a player with the ball is non existent and there are far too many wrong decisions been made when a player is under pressure.

If they can find out what they are doing wrong in training and change it then the extra energy in the team will come back. Yesterdays performance was very flat and a follow on from the league. It is just not acceptable given the panel of players we have and what we know they are capable of. They must figure out what they have doing wrong for the last number of months and change it otherwise 2014 will have been a complete write off.

deisedoz

deisedude wrote: »

I know they are only kids but the behaviour of the Cork juveniles yesterday was disgraceful booing the Waterford primary school kid players as they walked past them.

Noticed this first day out too, in addition to the ohhhing when we are taking frees. A lot of people commented on it yesterday. Assuming that they are being brought as a group, whoever is in charge of them should be ashamed as the behaviour is an embarrassment to Cork GAA and when you consider all the great things being done at underage level on the field.