Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

robopaddy

culbaire wrote: »

There was very little positive about yesterday's display. I happened to hear a few minutes of the Billy McCarthy Show this morning. Heard a former Waterford hurler who sought to minimise yesterday's disastrous performance. He is very happy with the current management set up labelling it as good. He sought to make excuses left, right and centre. He laboured the point about the number of young players on the team. As far as he is concerned it will take a few years for success to be achieved. That argument is nonsensical. Clare won the All Ireland last year with a glorified U-21 team. The motto must be: "its now or never".

This is not a personal grudge. I have nothing against any one on the management team. However it is obvious that they need an outside influence to help them to prepare the team. Fresh thinking and a fresh approach is required. Defenders were ten metres away from the players they were marking. They were incapable of tackling effectively and were too easily rounded. Cork roamed wild at centre field. There was effectively no half forward line. The full forward line was also ineffective. The striking of most of the players was painfully slow and sluggish. Just another interesting point: Had the managemt team anybody in the stands to get an overall view?

This was an appalling performance. It would not be tolerated in Kilkenny or Cork. The Cork players were savaged after the drawn game. Today on WLR a former great Waterford player was just too mild in his comments. At least on this forum a lot of posters are attempting to analyse the weaknesses and talk about possible solutions. It is time to stop codding ourselves in Waterford and tell it as it is. That does not mean that we make personal attacks on management or players.

If its mullane your referring to he actually criticised the management in his article in the indpendant yesterday saying they got it wrong so I dont think you can accuse him of biase.

In fairness he was never going to just come on local radio and start slating his friends and family for the sake of the billy mccarthy show

Orizio

Gary Neville wrote: »

I can understand the frustration of Waterford Supporters as the team didn't do themselves justice yesterday but surely people can see there's huge potential there. O Keefe is a superb shot stopper and has the heart of a lion - 1 goal conceded over 2 games and no falut to him. Connors is top class and always has Patrick Horgan in his pocket. Prendergast looked a good prospect and confined Cadogan to a pt. I haven't seen Darragh Fives but if he's better than Shane then he's some player. Shane was MOTH for Carrigtwohill in the win v Bride Rovers last week. De Burca and Barrett look very promising too. Some great forwards coming through in Gleeson and Dunford and Jake Dillon was MOTM in the Fitz Final (he'll come good) Manony and Shanahan can be match winners on their day.

Derek McGrath almost pulled off a massive win the first day and although things went skew-ways yesterday, he'll learn a lot. Waterford have a very good U21 side and I fear a serious trimming for Cork in July - I think that this side can win an AI for Waterford within 3/4 years and I'll be delighted when it happens.

Keep the faith - things can turn quickly

Although I agree that there is huge potential in Waterford hurling, Prendergast got destroyed by Cadogan. Cadogan should have had 2-3 by the end, and it had nothing to do with Predergast's defending that he didn't. Doesn't look cynical or aggressive enough for corner-back.

Dillon looks like he needs to be in a two man full-forward line, maybe with someone powerful like Shanahan.

Orizio

As an aside lads, why were Brick Walsh and Kevin Moran not playing on Sunday? Will they be back for the qualifiers?

cul beag

3ships wrote: »

Thought Mullane was honest enough on the Independent. The system most certainly broke down. Still think there is a kick in this team but talk of Waterford Hurling being 2/3 years away is annoying. How good will Clare or Limerick or half dozen other counties be by then. We shouldn't expect lads who are in School or just out of school to bale us out. Despite all the injuries there is still the likes of Ray Barry, Gavin O Brien, Ryan Donnelly, Shane McNulty who deserve more game time. Paudie Prendergast and Shane Fives should be promoted up the pecking order and given more promenent roles. There are options and there is a future and its in a months time!

This is the problem though. Because of the blind allegiance to players that McGrath has the above mentioned players will never get the same chances/game time to prove their worth. Yes every management set up will have their favourite players that they will always select but at what stage do they realise that they need to try someone different?
Can't really see too many changes made for the next day either because if he does it will look like he's pressing the panic button. Paudie Prendergast saw no league action,Gavin O Brien was used in 2 games and not seen since so i can't see either starting the next day(especially if Noelie is fit)
It is so frustrating watching at times because you just know no matter what way certain players perform they'll be left on the pitch. Cody on Saturday night wasn't like that,Kennedy at corner back was whipped off because Carroll was giving him a torrid time even though deep down he knew kilkenny would win by a cricket score. The difference being Cody was/is ruthless. He didn't wait till the 50th minute til they were 10 points down to make the change,it was done the minute he sensed danger. No blind allegiance there only every player knowing that if he doesn't perform someone else on the bench will. The same rules apply there for everyone,wish we could say the same!!

Hidalgo

Mountainlad wrote: »

Not much to say about yesterday. All I will say is in 2011, two years after Clares break through U21 all Ireland, they suffered a 17 point defeat to Galway who were beaten by 10 point s by Waterford who had been beaten by 21 points by Tipp, who struggled over Dublin, who lost to Antrim the year before and were hammered by Kilkenny the following year, who one year later they beat on the way to win Leinster, only to lose to Cork, who lost the All-Ireland final to Clare.

Strange game we follow.

+1. As a clare man I was in Salthill the Saturday evening they absolutely destroyed us. Wasn't pretty and you would have been delusional to think then we'd be All Irl champs within 2 yrs.

In 2004 clare and waterford met in munster. Final score 3-21 to 1-08. As bad a beating as clare have taken yet that season we lost out to kk in a replay in Q final


Moral of the story is theres few guarantees in sport. Get a decent qialifier draw and the season gets back on track.

robopaddy

Orizio wrote: »

As an aside lads, why were Brick Walsh and Kevin Moran not playing on Sunday? Will they be back for the qualifiers?

Dunno but moran hasnt hurled since the kk game in the championship last year anyway. so doubt it.....

Slobbery

Orizio wrote: »

As an aside lads, why were Brick Walsh and Kevin Moran not playing on Sunday? Will they be back for the qualifiers?

You worrying about the qualifiers already? 5 short days and ya could be in them too

STIG83

I heard the Waterford footballers Manager on the radio yesterday talking about the draw against Clare, he was saying they weren't allowed to warm up on the pitch in Ennis?
That's bad form.

hardybuck

STIG83 wrote: »

I heard the Waterford footballers Manager on the radio yesterday talking about the draw against Clare, he was saying they weren't allowed to warm up on the pitch in Ennis?
That's bad form.

Clare always mess the visiting team around. They're lucky it was played in Ennis at all.

HillFarmer

Anyone know when the draw for the qualifiers will be made?

I suppose we'll hardly get a handy run to the quarter finals.

hardybuck

HillFarmer wrote: »

Anyone know when the draw for the qualifiers will be made?

I suppose we'll hardly get a handy run to the quarter finals.

There would be no handy run for us at this stage. Wexford, Offaly et al would give us a very good game right now.

blueflame

Much has been said about the "defensive" tactics employed by the Waterford Management Team, I for one (and I am not a qualified hurling coach) view the tactics as "negative" rather than defensive.

To employ a defensive tactic to me means putting in place a system for defending your end of the field. That means having a plan to deal with problems such as runners from deep, defending high balls, where there is a mismatch in height, avoiding the full back being completely isolated or being dragged out the field by a roaming etc.. To me the core of any defensive system must start in your forward line, by applying pressure on opposing back to ensure that clearances are hurried and made under pressure. A block or a hook in the opposing full back or half back line, so often leads to scores and even where they do not hurried clearances normally favour backs.

You look back to Sunday where we withdrew our forwards so much, we left the Cork Full back in particular all the time in the world to deliver quality ball into their half forwards, ruthless exposing our backs. It was like giving a top quality quarterback in American football all the time in the world, he will destroy you.

Flooding your half of the field is not defensive, it is negative, it is panicking, it is inviting teams onto you and if you keep hitting a ball off the wall, it will keep coming back. This same "tactic" say us get two wallopings. Time to "bin" this excuse for a tactic, start to defend on every line of the pitch, apply pressure to all backs trying to clear the ball, and express enough confidence in your players to win their own battles.

Gary Neville

hardybuck wrote: »

Clare always mess the visiting team around. They're lucky it was played in Ennis at all.

It seems to part of their mindset (in both codes)

Loughnane was always at the old mind games and building the siege mentality - Davey Fitz has learnt from the Master - little fishes etc.

I hope Waterford give them a right trimming next week-end. They'll be missing Podge Collins and probably Sean too. You'd think that and home advantage might swing it and Waterford will use the warm-up stuff to up the ante. Should be a spicy encounter. Niall Carew is a decent manager and he'll have them firing on all cylinders.

Waterford came very close to turning over Galway in Pearse last year so they are a capable outfit. Hope they get a decent crowd.

cleaboy boy

Qualifier draw for the hurling takes place on June 23rd at 8.35 a.m. on Radio 1.
Waterford can meet Offaly, Laois/Antrim and the losers of Kilkenny/Galway and losers of Dublin/Wexford.

Deise_abu

cleaboy boy wrote: »

Qualifier draw for the hurling takes place on June 23rd at 8.35 a.m. on Radio 1.
Waterford can meet Offaly, Laois/Antrim and the losers of Kilkenny/Galway and losers of Dublin/Wexford.

I thought it is broken into two phases (or was there a change)

Phase 1 (now known)

Waterford, Offaly, Laois and Antrim

Phase 2

Tipp, losers of Cork\Clare, losers of kk\galway, losers of Dub\Wex


Phase 3

1. Phase 1 winners v Phase 2 winners
2. Phase 1 winners v Phase 2 winners

QF

1. Phase 3 winners v beaten Munster finalists
2. Phase 3 winners v beaten Leinster finalists

Deise_abu

Deise_abu wrote: »

I thought it is broken into two phases (or was there a change)

Phase 1 (now known)

Waterford, Offaly, Laois and Antrim

Phase 2

Tipp, losers of Cork\Clare, losers of kk\galway, losers of Dub\Wex


Phase 3

1. Phase 1 winners v Phase 2 winners
2. Phase 1 winners v Phase 2 winners

QF

1. Phase 3 winners v beaten Munster finalists
2. Phase 3 winners v beaten Leinster finalists

Just checked the GAA website, seems like phase 1 and 2 have been dropped

8 team draw to be made

Waterford, Offaly, Laois,Antrim and Tipp are known

You would assume it will be Galway, Wexford (although they could shock the Dubs) and Cork (assuming Davy has something up his sleeve for them this weekend)

I would love to draw Tipp and put an end to there summer in June \ July again but if I had a choice a home draw against Offaly or Antrim would our best chance to progress

deiseach

It looks like there's a change. I can't find anything official explaining it, but it seems that everyone who failed to reach a provincial final goes into the first round of the qualifiers. You can see there are four Round 1 games scheduled on the GAA's website.

KevIRL

We won't be playing a Munster team in round one.
Assuming (just cause they are favourite) kk and dublin win the Leinster semi final. We will play one of Wexford/Galway/Offaly or antrim/lapis.

One of antrim/lapis will go into the 'munster' side of the draw and teams who have already met will be kept apart, so if laois are the team that end up in our pot then our chances of getting Galway increase, if antrim end up in there then our chances of drawing wexford increase. All assuming Galway and Wexford lose Leinster semi finals that is

Deise_abu

KevIRL wrote: »

We won't be playing a Munster team in round one.
Assuming (just cause they are favourite) kk and dublin win the Leinster semi final. We will play one of Wexford/Galway/Offaly or antrim/lapis.

One of antrim/lapis will go into the 'munster' side of the draw and teams who have already met will be kept apart, so if laois are the team that end up in our pot then our chances of getting Galway increase, if antrim end up in there then our chances of drawing wexford increase. All assuming Galway and Wexford lose Leinster semi finals that is

Thanks for that makes sense now, they love tinkering with these qualifiers

comeraghs

Waterford GAA SC Dublin annual golf day will be held on Saturday 14th June at the spectacular setting of Palmerstown House Estate, Johnstown, Co. Kildare (just off the Naas Road).


Fourball team event at a cost of €400 to include golf, dinner and prizes. Individual entries available for €100.

Alternatively sponsor a personal or corporate tee box at a cost of €100. The Tee is booked from 1.40pm through to 3.30pm .

Contact Craig Duignan (craigduignan@icloud) or Eddie McCarthy (emccarth@eircom.net) for more information.

KevIRL

'Nash' free banned

Well done Soky

Tramore84

blueflame wrote: »

Much has been said about the "defensive" tactics employed by the Waterford Management Team, I for one (and I am not a qualified hurling coach) view the tactics as "negative" rather than defensive.

To employ a defensive tactic to me means putting in place a system for defending your end of the field. That means having a plan to deal with problems such as runners from deep, defending high balls, where there is a mismatch in height, avoiding the full back being completely isolated or being dragged out the field by a roaming etc.. To me the core of any defensive system must start in your forward line, by applying pressure on opposing back to ensure that clearances are hurried and made under pressure. A block or a hook in the opposing full back or half back line, so often leads to scores and even where they do not hurried clearances normally favour backs.

You look back to Sunday where we withdrew our forwards so much, we left the Cork Full back in particular all the time in the world to deliver quality ball into their half forwards, ruthless exposing our backs. It was like giving a top quality quarterback in American football all the time in the world, he will destroy you.

Flooding your half of the field is not defensive, it is negative, it is panicking, it is inviting teams onto you and if you keep hitting a ball off the wall, it will keep coming back. This same "tactic" say us get two wallopings. Time to "bin" this excuse for a tactic, start to defend on every line of the pitch, apply pressure to all backs trying to clear the ball, and express enough confidence in your players to win their own battles.

The negativity of the team formation is affecting the performances and results. That's 4 bad hammerings since the start of the league - Clare, Kk, Dublin and now Cork. In each game, it was apparent a long way before the end that we were going to lose. The 5 forwards tire as the game goes on as they are required to cover and tackle and this leads to a lack of options for backs into the second half. Some of the forwards are plainly not suited to the role they are being asked to fulfil. The obsession with implementing the Clare model has meant that management seem unwilling to countenance a plan B. Also, Management seem unwilling to adapt their gameplan to changing circumstances on the pitch. The first unforced substitution was I think early in the second half when the game was gone. There was no discernible change in tactics or system at all. Last Sunday was not a league game it was the Munster Championship - I hope I am wrong but I am worried that this management team does not know how to get the best out of the players available.

robopaddy

KevIRL wrote: »

We won't be playing a Munster team in round one.
Assuming (just cause they are favourite) kk and dublin win the Leinster semi final. We will play one of Wexford/Galway/Offaly or antrim/lapis.

One of antrim/lais will go into the 'munster' side of the draw and teams who have already met will be kep apart, so if laois are the team that end up in our pot then our chances of getting Galway increase, if antrim end up in there then our chances of drawing wexford increase. All assuming Galway and Wexford lose Leinster semi finals that is

Best case scenario offaly or antrim. Worst case scnario Dublin. I think kk will take galway. Out of dublin wexford or galway id honestly say id take galway ahead of the other 2

Deskjockey

robopaddy wrote: »

Best case scenario offaly or antrim. Worst case scnario Dublin. I think kk will take galway. Out of dublin wexford or galway id honestly say id take galway ahead of the other 2

Assuming kk and dublin win the Leinster semi finals. We will play one of Wexford/Galway/Offaly or antrim/laois.

In that case Galway are the last team I would like us to meet out of the above as the championship hoodoo we have over them won't last forever

So in order of who I'd like us to draw is as follows
1. Offaly
2. Antrim
3. Laois
4. Wexford
5. Galway

1-3 I'd be very hopeful that Waterford would beat them, Wexford would fancy their chances against us ( will never forget that 2003? Qualifier in Nowlan Park, for me one of the greatest sickeners of the Justin era, and doubly so listening to Wexford players afterwards crowing that we'd never have had any fear of Waterford etc etc) and flaky as they have been in recent years against us, I think we would struggle to beat Galway this year.

cul beag

Its 3 days since that debacle and I'm still trying to get my head around some of the decisions made on the line. As Tramore 84 said the first non enforced change was made when the game was gone! Absolutely baffling! I read the Waterford News and Star and all I can think of is I must have been at a different match with the players ratings that were given. I fully understand they need to try to put a positive spin on things but don't insult us by rolling out that bulls**t! Grow a pair and call it as you see it. Dan comes out on the Irish Examiner saying we should have taken our goal chances early on and how we were blown away physically by Cork-but what about what they got wrong:
Tactics
Gameplan
Substitutions
Motivation

Mullane on Monday at least had the b**ls to call it as it is even if he had to be critical of his own brother in law. I presume they will surely try to arrange a challenge game between here and the qualifiers it will be interesting what,if anything,is done differently.

I was in favour of Derek McGrath getting the job when it became available, I'm really needing to be assured that my gut instinct was right back then!!

Black Suir

dzilla wrote: »

dissappointing but i doubt we would have beaten clare. maybe the qualifiers is the route needed. we need to sharpen up, the young lads have it, the likes of dunford gleeseon etc, just need more practice to sharpen the shooting and the likes. not the end of the world and we're not the first team to go into the qualifiers so hopefully things get better

Dont know about that. There is some good teams in the qualifiers this year. We might get lucky in the first round and get Offaly (again) or Antrim. Laois may not be bad either but they would be stronger than the other two. I would not be taking any of them for granted. Remember last year we had enough to do to beat Offaly and i believe we had a better team last year than this year. We have gone back alot in tweleve months. If we do get over the first round game, then the second round game will be no easier as we would end up playing the likes of Tipperary, Kilkenny or Galway, Dublin or Wexford or Clare should Cork beat them. We cannot meet Cork again in the qualifiers. You would say that off them teams right now, they are all stronger than Waterford maybe apart from Wexford.

Black Suir

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Not sure what happened ye today lads, but ye went backwards from the first game. Yes Cork 'turned up' but that still doesn't explain it. We always had spare couple of men to pass to. Some of the shooting was fairly poor too. I do think ye will be a lot better than that the next day though.

I think you answered the problem with Waterford yourself there. Cork never showed up the first day and still Waterford were lucky to beat them. To throw away a 9 point lead was madness. After that game many were talking up Waterford and believed that we only had to turn up and we would beat them, with many believing that Cork had gone back wards. Cork could well be in Croke Park in September.

Black Suir

deisedoz wrote: »

Up there with the most.demoralising results of recent years and unfortunately becoming a more frequent occurrence. Beaten all over the park. Connors injury a huge blow from which we never recovered.

Should never had started. The management knew going into the game he was injured and took a gamble. He could have lasted an hour and could have gone off before he did. If he did not last it was a sub used straight away. And as we saw in the drawn game when we needed subs near the end we did not have them. Austin Gleeson that day had put in a great display but was dying on his feet and we had no sub left.

Black Suir

Hslaw wrote: »

i have no mass in Derek McGrath. and never will DLS went backwards under him. Now were going back to the stone age

tend to agree. Under Scully DLS were moments away from reaching an All-Ireland Final and under him we came closest to beating Kilkenny in a championship game for the first time since 1959. DLS possibly lost a county final last year with the way McGrath had the team playing against Ballygunner. In saying that I expect some to come in now and tell me that Scully was not doing the work with DLS. Maybe they are right, I dont know, but he was the Manager and its the Manager that gets and takes the praise when a team wins, and has to accept the blame when the team loose.

Black Suir

hardybuck wrote: »

Players and management have a bit of work to do.

Some difference when we're bringing on an aging Prendergast and Molumphy when they throw on Paidi O'Sullivan who scores within 5 secs of his arrival.

Very harsh. Maybe if we started the two Waterford players you mention, two great ball winners, two players who may not score a lot but will set up others, and then if the needs be to take them off after an hour, Waterford would have got something from the game or be closer to Cork. We have this thing in Waterford that we need all these tidy hurlers, but we need grafters as well.