Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

Black Suir

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

I can see a meeting being called in the Ramada any day now.

Lismore this time. Tramore and the city had its turn. Lismore and Dungarvan are next in line.

Black Suir

STIG83 wrote: »

I heard the Waterford footballers Manager on the radio yesterday talking about the draw against Clare, he was saying they weren't allowed to warm up on the pitch in Ennis?
That's bad form.

Dont think we can talk in Waterford about not allowed to do a pitch warm up. In Fraher Field for games there is an invisible lock on the gate coming out onto the field until may ten minutes before a game. Players have to go to the show grounds to warm up which is not the best of practice by our county board as some day a supporter coming into a game is going to get a bad slap off a ball that goes astray when teams are pucking around in a warm up.

Black Suir

hardybuck wrote: »

Clare always mess the visiting team around. They're lucky it was played in Ennis at all.

They have a tendency to send teams from Waterford to Miltown Malbay or Lahinch often at short notice. Maybe we should send them to some out of the place some time for a game.

hardybuck

To add some levity to this thread, what would be the worst, most unhospitable and exposed venue we could send the likes of Clare to?

Off the top of my head I'm thinking somewhere like Gaultier on a wet Feb afternoon....

Jarjohn

hardybuck wrote: »

To add some levity to this thread, what would be the worst, most unhospitable and exposed venue we could send the likes of Clare to?

Off the top of my head I'm thinking somewhere like Gaultier on a wet Feb afternoon....

Walsh Park :pac:
Seriously .....Cappoquin....if only to see their face when they go into the dressing rooms and shower/tap

carter10

Jarjohn wrote: »

Walsh Park :pac:
Seriously .....Cappoquin....if only to see their face when they go into the dressing rooms and shower/tap

Bit off topic but on the subject of pitches has anyone seen the soccer pitch in Rathgormac? has to be seen to be believed. Theres a slope on it you'd need crampons to get up it. Its right behind the pub in the village. Dont think the GAA would let the Clare game go on there though!

Hamstrings59

Black Suir wrote: »

tend to agree. Under Scully DLS were moments away from reaching an All-Ireland Final and under him we came closest to beating Kilkenny in a championship game for the first time since 1959. DLS possibly lost a county final last year with the way McGrath had the team playing against Ballygunner. In saying that I expect some to come in now and tell me that Scully was not doing the work with DLS. Maybe they are right, I dont know, but he was the Manager and its the Manager that gets and takes the praise when a team wins, and has to accept the blame when the team loose.

Well if you knew anything about it Scully had been told to step aside during the club cship in the county after shipping several heavy beatings and they only barely made the knock out stages if memory serves, he retained the title of manager but was anything but... If he was such a revelation in DLS why was he shown the door after one season? If he was so good, why didn't mullane rate him? Stop this pro Scully **** he's gone and won't be back, get behind your county manager or stay quiet.

Alf Tupper

Hamstrings59 wrote: »

Well if you knew anything about it Scully had been told to step aside during the club cship in the county after shipping several heavy beatings and they only barely made the knock out stages if memory serves, he retained the title of manager but was anything but... If he was such a revelation in DLS why was he shown the door after one season? If he was so good, why didn't mullane rate him? Stop this pro Scully **** he's gone and won't be back, get behind your county manager or stay quiet.

People will be more inclined to get behind the county manager when he proves himself not to be in the Doc and the Don's pocket!

Hamstrings59

Alf Tupper wrote: »

People will be more inclined to get behind the county manager when he proves himself not to be in the Doc and the Don's pocket!

That's a very bold statement - expand????

conditioned games

Hamstrings59 wrote: »

Well if you knew anything about it Scully had been told to step aside during the club cship in the county after shipping several heavy beatings and they only barely made the knock out stages if memory serves, he retained the title of manager but was anything but... If he was such a revelation in DLS why was he shown the door after one season? If he was so good, why didn't mullane rate him? Stop this pro Scully **** he's gone and won't be back, get behind your county manager or stay quiet.

He managed DLS for 2 years, 2010 and 2011. I remember him moving up and down the sidline in the all ireland semi against Clairnbridge with him shouting at the forwards to spread it out and use the space while jestering to them by moving his arms outwards. Your memory is not all good, DLS made more than the knock out stages and he didn't try to force a complicated defensive plan on the team.

Alf Tupper

Hamstrings59 wrote: »

That's a very bold statement - expand????

All you have to do is look at the team sheets and the the number of chances certain guys have been given since he has taken over, no matter how ineffectual they have been, and you'll know what I mean.

He is being bullied and is totally compromised.

Hamstrings59

Alf Tupper wrote: »

All you have to do is look at the team sheets and the the number of chances certain guys have been given since he has taken over, no matter how ineffectual they have been, and you'll know what I mean.

He is being bullied and is totally compromised.

Do you have proof of this because if you don't what you have said is totally out of order! You are calling people's characters into question here which is totally uncalled for
People here questioned Brian o sullivans inclusion before the drawn game, then they changed their mind, now they change it again?!
I'll say it again, people here have an agenda, plain and simple

Alf Tupper

Hamstrings59 wrote: »

Do you have proof of this because if you don't what you have said is totally out of order! You are calling people's characters into question here which is totally uncalled for
People here questioned Brian o sullivans inclusion before the drawn game, then they changed their mind, now they change it again?!
I'll say it again, people here have an agenda, plain and simple

Look, anyone who has been involved up in the field in Ballygunner knows who has been causing all the hassle, calling the shots and picking the team there for years. It happened again there after this years AGM.

This is the same crew that has been responsible for some really talented hurlers walking away up there because they pulled every stroke in the book to get their own crew in charge and their own guys on to the team.

This is going back to even Flynner's time and some of the strokes they pulled, deciding he was injured so that they could get their own lad on. They have tried to buy off everyone.

The issue here now in Waterford is the exact same. We are on the cusp of some hurlers from our most talented generation walking away because of the same agenda, They know they are never going to get a look in under this regime.

If you don't believe me, have at look at one of the guys who saw action on the Waterford intermediate team. The guy is a junior club hurler at best. Come back to me when we have risked defeat to Cork over this guy seeing action in the U21, which I guarantee you he will.

Same old, same old.

Last Sunday, one of the Derek's pets did everything to avoid marking Conor Lehane, even to the point of trying to go centre back when Brick was there. It happened right in front of me, I could hear the Brick telling him to shag off that he was centre back and to go back to the wing. He completely ignored the Brick. What manager with balls would put up with that?

For the record, you are the guy who mentioned Brian O'Sullivan.

So seeing as you have, come back to me and defend his record.

He has started every game and finished nearly every since Derek took over. For 99% of those he has been in the inside forward line. Has he got even one goal in a competitive match? His record in the league was abysmal, something like 9 points from every match. The guy wouldn't take on his man to save his life and can't win his own ball. He's a fancy dan hurler, a luxury who will tack on a couple of needless point when you are 8 or 10 ahead.

Imagine what Breathnach, Shanahan, O'Brien, Barry. or Donnelly would have done with that amount of game time.

The problem is though they will never get that game time under this regime because the manager hasn't the courage to face down old boy afterwards.

Wise up lad, the whole city and county are talking about it, O'Sullivan is not up to it, are you telling me it's an accident that he has been picked all the time??.

Come back to me and justify his inclusion. The thing is you can't

The problem is at the moment Derek is just a patsy!!

It's a pity because he talks a good game, to anyone who is willing to listen, pity he's too much of a coward to face down those who he perceives as his betters.

Until he does, he should forget it and leave it to someone who gives all players a fair chance!!

Royal Legend

Alf Tupper wrote: »

Look, anyone who has been involved up in the field in Ballygunner knows who has been causing all the hassle, calling the shots and picking the team there for years. It happened again there after this years AGM.

This is the same crew that has been responsible for some really talented hurlers walking away up there because they pulled every stroke in the book to get their own crew in charge and their own guys on to the team.

This is going back to even Flynner's time and some of the strokes they pulled, deciding he was injured so that they could get their own lad on. They have tried to buy off everyone.

The issue here now in Waterford is the exact same. We are on the cusp of some hurlers from our most talented generation walking away because of the same agenda, They know they are never going to get a look in under this regime.

If you don't believe me, have at look at one of the guys who saw action on the Waterford intermediate team. The guy is a junior club hurler at best. Come back to me when we have risked defeat to Cork over this guy seeing action in the U21, which I guarantee you he will.

Same old, same old.

Last Sunday, one of the Derek's pets did everything to avoid marking Conor Lehane, even to the point of trying to go centre back when Brick was there. It happened right in front of me, I could hear the Brick telling him to shag off that he was centre back and to go back to the wing. He completely ignored the Brick. What manager with balls would put up with that?

For the record, you are the guy who mentioned Brian O'Sullivan.

So seeing as you have, come back to me and defend his record.

He has started every game and finished nearly every since Derek took over. For 99% of those he has been in the inside forward line. Has he got even one goal in a competitive match? His record in the league was abysmal, something like 9 points from every match. The guy wouldn't take on his man to save his life and can't win his own ball. He's a fancy dan hurler, a luxury who will tack on a couple of needless point when you are 8 or 10 ahead.

Imagine what Breathnach, Shanahan, O'Brien, Barry. or Donnelly would have done with that amount of game time.

The problem is though they will never get that game time under this regime because the manager hasn't the courage to face down old boy afterwards.

Wise up lad, the whole city and county are talking about it, O'Sullivan is not up to it, are you telling me it's an accident that he has been picked all the time??.

Come back to me and justify his inclusion. The thing is you can't

The problem is at the moment Derek is just a patsy!!

It's a pity because he talks a good game, to anyone who is willing to listen, pity he's too much of a coward to face down those who he perceives as his betters.

Until he does, he should forget it and leave it to someone who gives all players a fair chance!!

There are decent city players not getting a look in either, this east v west thing is bull.

Alf Tupper

Royal Legend wrote: »

There are decent city players not getting a look in either, this east v west thing is bull.

Apologies if I gave the impression this is an east/west thing. It's anything but.

I'm from the city myself and have been mystified as to what has happened to the likes of Gavin O'Brien, Cormac Heffernan, young Roche etc.

It boils my blood to see these honest to God players who would die for the jersey being tossed aside in place of prima donnas who don't seem to have any pride in it.

Royal Legend

Alf Tupper wrote: »

Apologies if I gave the impression this is an east/west thing. It's anything but.

I'm from the city myself and have been mystified as to what has happened to the likes of Gavin O'Brien, Cormac Heffernan, young Roche etc.

It boils my blood to see these honest to God players who would die for the jersey being tossed aside in place of prima donnas who don't seem to have any pride in it.

My thoughts exactly. could say more but that would be unfair to one of the players concerned. We have a golden generation of young hurlers, all winners, some just past u21, some u21 this year and more to come behind. There is a big danger that some of these will be lost. Davy and Clare took a chance with youth, we need to do the same.

Tramore84

Alf Tupper wrote: »

Apologies if I gave the impression this is an east/west thing. It's anything but.

I'm from the city myself and have been mystified as to what has happened to the likes of Gavin O'Brien, Cormac Heffernan, young Roche etc.

It boils my blood to see these honest to God players who would die for the jersey being tossed aside in place of prima donnas who don't seem to have any pride in it.

I don't know where you are getting all this sh** from but maybe you should ease off on the caffeine for a while. Picking out one player is unfair IMO.

Royal Legend

Tramore84 wrote: »

I don't know where you are getting all this sh** from but maybe you should ease off on the caffeine for a while. Picking out one player is unfair IMO.

I think its more frustration that there are certain players that appear like they will never get dropped, no matter how poor they play, yet there are other talented young hurlers chomping at the bit that can't get a look in.

Alf Tupper

Tramore84 wrote: »

I don't know where you are getting all this sh** from but maybe you should ease off on the caffeine for a while. Picking out one player is unfair IMO.

Excuse me now, but I wasn't the person to mention anyone's name first!

I carefully avoided mentioning any one player's name until someone tried to defend the indefensible.

I just relayed generally what real hurling people who are involved at club level in the county are saying.

You can take that or leave it.

Alf Tupper

Royal Legend wrote: »

I think its more frustration that there are certain players that appear like they will never get dropped, no matter how poor they play, yet there are other talented young hurlers chomping at the bit that can't get a look in.

Exactly!

This is the kernel of the thing.

You talk to guys in Clare, Cork, Kilkenny etc and they will tell you that lads are being picked on merit. Unfortunately, that is not the case in Waterford.

I am genuinely afraid that we will waste a generation of hurlers under this regime. There is only so long that lads will put up with knowing that they are not going to get a look in, no matter how they perform. And even if they do, they know they are under pressure to perform in the first 20 mins while other guys can be anonymous for entire game.

Look at Clare and Cork last year, young lads who were showing potential were persevered with, older guys who had been tried and found wanting were discarded.

There wasn't one word about transition from JBM.

Can you really say the same about us.

hardybuck

Jarjohn wrote: »

Walsh Park :pac:
Seriously .....Cappoquin....if only to see their face when they go into the dressing rooms and shower/tap

I remember playing a minor county game in Cappoquin. Dressing rooms were an utter disgrace for that level, but the pitch seemed fine.

I hear Ballysaggart had to train on a field used by a sheep farmer...could be an option.

Deise_abu

Unfortunately I think too much is being invested in tactics and gameplans, this was evident in Davys time too, I am not sure the Waterford mentality lends itself well to following a structured gameplan (queue up to heckle, just my opinion).

We are trying to mimic a hybrid of the Clare game plan which is built on intensity and each team member following a structured approach, all you have to do is look at the last two successful periods in Clare hurling to see that this approach works for them.

On the other hand we can clearly see it doesn't work as well when adopted in Waterford, I am not getting into why or why not but all I believe is that it doesn't. Gerald Mc brought an organization to Waterford that had not existed previously but did not attempt to change the style of hurling which we played, the 2001 defeat to Limerick is a perfect example of the highs and lows of supporting our county, that said I would take that performance over last Sundays any day. Justin went some way to minimizing the lows during his time but you would have to say his greatest achievement was to accentuate all that is positive about the Waterford brand of hurling and hoped that would get us over the line.

Now I suppose the true unanswered question is can Waterford ever win an All Ireland playing the OK corral brand of hurling we all love to see played?

History suggests 'No' but the minor team of last year did not work to a Clare game plan so maybe there is hope (minor totally different, I know, I know)

Derek is a true hurling man, a guy who will leave no stone unturned but I think he over thinks things, always looking for that something extra. He has taken too much on in his first year, the fund raising, the legacy etc...

Every team needs something to give them an edge but I think Derek over plays this into the farcical, that is only an opinion from the outside looking in. I will accept the modern game is bordering on professional (some will argue is professional) but it still is hurling and fire and brimstone can not be ignored over tactical plans.

In truth DLS underachieved during his time managing them, they are by far the strongest panel in the county. They have failed to hit the consistency within the county championship given the ability within the panel.

robopaddy

hardybuck wrote: »

To add some levity to this thread, what would be the worst, most unhospitable and exposed venue we could send the likes of Clare to?

Off the top of my head I'm thinking somewhere like Gaultier on a wet Feb afternoon....

Send them up to play ballysaggart on a cold tuesday night. Thatd be an education for them

blueflame

Tactics are a vital component of any game plan but can beyond doubt be overstated and overplayed, particularly by managers of late. Last year we listened to analysts proclaim how Davy's tactics had won the day against Limerick, only for those self same analyst to admit on reflection that had Hannon not had a nightmare with the free taking that same day, Limerick would most probably have won and Davy's tactics would have failed. Davy did not plan for Hannon to have a nightmare, it just happened as often does to players in general.

The biggest failure of any tactic or game plan is a failure to adapt to changing circumstances or the acknowledge it is not working, and unfortunately after three drubbings this year, our management have to admit their plan is not working.

it is nice to play possession hurling but you must vary it, you must keep the opposition guessing or you become predictable as happened last week.

We keep saying we don't have ball winners in the half forward line, I believe the likes or Shanahan, Mahony, Aussie, and Ray Barry are very capable of winning their own fair share of aerial ball in the half forward line. Over the next couple of years we wil hopefully be able to add the likes of D.J Foran, and Cormac Curran to this line. In the half forward line there is far less chance of being bundled off ball that is being competed for in the air with both players off the ground, where timing and reach are far more important. Compare this with low fast ball into the corners where Barry and Shanahan in particular struggle.

Last year especially during the league Brian O'Halloran (who is anything but big) displayed an uncanny ability to bring the ball down with his Hurley and gain possession, much like Brick and Connors do, and he won more that his fair share of possession in doing so. This is something that can be coached and worked on. If successful this will give additional options, leaving the likes of Dillon, Donnelly, Dunford, Walsh, Breathnach and Barron free for our inside forward line, All these guys have low center of gravity, have a turn of pace, can be quite aggressive and hard to knock off the ball. We need to work on and play to our strengths, and show belief in our youngsters. Stop bemoaning about what we haven't and work harder on what we have.

Without wanting to cause further debate, or making comment on potential favoritism, one has to wonder why Gavin O'Brien has not gotten a chance in the middle of the field, to the same extent that others have been given repeated chances. He is technically a fine hurler with a good engine, and young legs, but appears to have been written off very quickly when he is only 21!!

Also regarding the debate around some of our current full forward line, my own personal opinion is that there is not enough aggression or cut in some of the individuals there to compete at Championship level. The may make good impact subs at the later stages of a game when there are tired legs and additional space, but not from the off and they quite frankly have not did enough to justify selection week in week out.

The management team rather than "thinking outside the box" need to have a careful look at what is in there.

Final comment, I could not believe when I read that Derek McGrath was apparently very concerned when he saw the tempo of Cork's pre-match warm up. If this statement is true (as many press comments are not) it rings to me of a manager who believed in order for us to win, Cork had to have an off-day, and that he believed they had an off day the previous week. This mentality is defeatist and will quickly spread to players, so a word of advice if this is the case. "Focus on getting your own warm up technically right and up to pace, stop watching the opposition, instead send a message to them that we are here, we are up for it and we are ready for whatever you throw at us".

Black Suir

hardybuck wrote: »

To add some levity to this thread, what would be the worst, most unhospitable and exposed venue we could send the likes of Clare to?

Off the top of my head I'm thinking somewhere like Gaultier on a wet Feb afternoon....

Kilgobinet. Would need to be an enclosed field for Inter County Games. Not sure if Kilbobinet is enclosed however. If a field need not be enclosed, I would say Ballysaggart or Shamrocks. I am not saying there is anything wrong with these fields in case any members of the clubs think i am, its just for most they are a bit out of the way.

Black Suir

Jarjohn wrote: »

Walsh Park :pac:
Seriously .....Cappoquin....if only to see their face when they go into the dressing rooms and shower/tap

I remember Inter County Minor games played there in the last 10 to 15 years. Yes the dressing rooms are there are cramped, but what Clare do is add mileage, as much as possible from Ennis. There is nothing to stop them playing games in places like Newmarket-on-Fergus, Cratloe etc, if Ennis is not playable or they decide not to use it, but they like to send us to the Atlantic Coast. For us to move a game from Fraher Field to Cappoquin or say Walsh Park to WIT would not be the same. We would have to find a venue as far from the venue the game is fixed for as possible or a place that is hard to find if you dont know where you are going i.e. Shamrocks, Ballysaggart, Kilgobinet.

Black Suir

carter10 wrote: »

Bit off topic but on the subject of pitches has anyone seen the soccer pitch in Rathgormac? has to be seen to be believed. Theres a slope on it you'd need crampons to get up it. Its right behind the pub in the village. Dont think the GAA would let the Clare game go on there though!

Have you ever seen the old Saint Pats field in Bohadoon beside the modern Kilgobinet Field, in the back of the pub). There used to be the back of two lorries there as dressing rooms, A few bricks in them and planks of timber on them for seating. If you wanted a wee the ditch was your toilet. If you wanted to do something else, you were in trouble. You had to hop over the ditch. However the pitch was dead flat. When it comes to a slope on a GAA Field is there a worse one that at Ring. I always joke when i go there that the captain that wins the toss should always play down the hill (towards the sea) and hope by the second half when you had to play up the slope, that the opposition is tired and the advantage of playing down hill is no great advantage. OK i may be exagerating the severity of the slope, but when i go there i know anyone i go on about the slope to, know i am only taking the we-we.

Black Suir

Hamstrings59 wrote: »

Well if you knew anything about it Scully had been told to step aside during the club cship in the county after shipping several heavy beatings and they only barely made the knock out stages if memory serves, he retained the title of manager but was anything but... If he was such a revelation in DLS why was he shown the door after one season? If he was so good, why didn't mullane rate him? Stop this pro Scully **** he's gone and won't be back, get behind your county manager or stay quiet.

Was he the manager of DE La Salle in 2010? Did they win the 2010 County and Munster Finals? Did they play and All-Ireland Semi Final in the spring of 2011? Did they loose that game late in the game or after extra time (not sure which)? I know he was not the most popular of people in De La Salle, but the fact is that he was manager, and as manager when you win you get to take all the praise that goes with it and when you loose you should be made take the flack that goes with it.

Black Suir

conditioned games wrote: »

He managed DLS for 2 years, 2010 and 2011. I remember him moving up and down the sidline in the all ireland semi against Clairnbridge with him shouting at the forwards to spread it out and use the space while jestering to them by moving his arms outwards. Your memory is not all good, DLS made more than the knock out stages and he didn't try to force a complicated defensive plan on the team.

I think some people have selective memory. Not you, but the poster you are responding to.

Black Suir

Alf Tupper wrote: »

Apologies if I gave the impression this is an east/west thing. It's anything but.

I'm from the city myself and have been mystified as to what has happened to the likes of Gavin O'Brien, Cormac Heffernan, young Roche etc.

It boils my blood to see these honest to God players who would die for the jersey being tossed aside in place of prima donnas who don't seem to have any pride in it.

I am not saying this, just reporting what I have heard, but there is some people out there who believe that your place on the team could be decided by what school you went to.