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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1
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Alf Tupper wrote: »People will be more inclined to get behind the county manager when he proves himself not to be in the Doc and the Don's pocket!
Total crap!
P. mahony and Brian o Sullivan were up there with our top performers in the drawn game0 -
Alf Tupper wrote: »Look, anyone who has been involved up in the field in Ballygunner knows who has been causing all the hassle, calling the shots and picking the team there for years. It happened again there after this years AGM.
This is the same crew that has been responsible for some really talented hurlers walking away up there because they pulled every stroke in the book to get their own crew in charge and their own guys on to the team.
This is going back to even Flynner's time and some of the strokes they pulled, deciding he was injured so that they could get their own lad on. They have tried to buy off everyone.
The issue here now in Waterford is the exact same. We are on the cusp of some hurlers from our most talented generation walking away because of the same agenda, They know they are never going to get a look in under this regime.
If you don't believe me, have at look at one of the guys who saw action on the Waterford intermediate team. The guy is a junior club hurler at best. Come back to me when we have risked defeat to Cork over this guy seeing action in the U21, which I guarantee you he will.
Same old, same old.
Last Sunday, one of the Derek's pets did everything to avoid marking Conor Lehane, even to the point of trying to go centre back when Brick was there. It happened right in front of me, I could hear the Brick telling him to shag off that he was centre back and to go back to the wing. He completely ignored the Brick. What manager with balls would put up with that?
For the record, you are the guy who mentioned Brian O'Sullivan.
So seeing as you have, come back to me and defend his record.
He has started every game and finished nearly every since Derek took over. For 99% of those he has been in the inside forward line. Has he got even one goal in a competitive match? His record in the league was abysmal, something like 9 points from every match. The guy wouldn't take on his man to save his life and can't win his own ball. He's a fancy dan hurler, a luxury who will tack on a couple of needless point when you are 8 or 10 ahead.
Imagine what Breathnach, Shanahan, O'Brien, Barry. or Donnelly would have done with that amount of game time.
The problem is though they will never get that game time under this regime because the manager hasn't the courage to face down old boy afterwards.
Wise up lad, the whole city and county are talking about it, O'Sullivan is not up to it, are you telling me it's an accident that he has been picked all the time??.
Come back to me and justify his inclusion. The thing is you can't
The problem is at the moment Derek is just a patsy!!
It's a pity because he talks a good game, to anyone who is willing to listen, pity he's too much of a coward to face down those who he perceives as his betters.
Until he does, he should forget it and leave it to someone who gives all players a fair chance!!
In fairness Brian o Sullivan has been on his own in the full forward line with 3 backs around him, not easy or score goals in those circumstances.0 -
Alf Tupper wrote: »Excuse me now, but I wasn't the person to mention anyone's name first!
I carefully avoided mentioning any one player's name until someone tried to defend the indefensible.
I just relayed generally what real hurling people who are involved at club level in the county are saying.
You can take that or leave it.
To be fair it was totally obvious who you were talking about when you named the doc and the don. So you did mention names first.
Jealousy is an awful thing0 -
You will find no argument with me re Mahony - he is very young and think with the right management he can become a real leader for us for the future. Had a lot of injuries coming into last year and did not do himself justice, but with a sustained run this year has been very good in most games.
As regards BOS, would have to agree that he has been marked by 2 or 3 on occasion because of our persistent tactic of withdrawing the two corner forwards and persisting with this tactic even when the two corner backs stay in. That being said he has not convinced me he has the strength or the stomach for championship, but i am there to be proven wrong. He appears to be knocked off the ball very easily and spends a lot of time chasing rather than tackling his man, hence my assessment. This is a pity because he has pace and plenty of hurling but tends to take the easy route, rather than the hard one.
He is still young and has time to prove us doubters wrong, but for the moment, it is time to give those of stouter heart and sterner stuff a shot - he has had plenty of opportunities and one decent 20 minutes is not enough for me. A while getting splinters in his backside on the bench might do him no harm at all, and see how he responds..0 -
You will find no argument with me re Mahony - he is very young and think with the right management he can become a real leader for us for the future. Had a lot of injuries coming into last year and did not do himself justice, but with a sustained run this year has been very good in most games.
As regards BOS, would have to agree that he has been marked by 2 or 3 on occasion because of our persistent tactic of withdrawing the two corner forwards and persisting with this tactic even when the two corner backs stay in. That being said he has not convinced me he has the strength or the stomach for championship, but i am there to be proven wrong. He appears to be knocked off the ball very easily and spends a lot of time chasing rather than tackling his man, hence my assessment. This is a pity because he has pace and plenty of hurling but tends to take the easy route, rather than the hard one.
He is still young and has time to prove us doubters wrong, but for the moment, it is time to give those of stouter heart and sterner stuff a shot - he has had plenty of opportunities and one decent 20 minutes is not enough for me. A while getting splinters in his backside on the bench might do him no harm at all, and see how he responds..
I agree, BOS big advantage in club is his pace, at inter county corner backs are lightning too, I think that's why tommy ryan didn't flourish.0 -
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I think it's low coming on here talking about lads just because of who there related too, those lads have all Ireland college, fitz gibbon medals and county titles in their arse pockets, they are as good as what we have that's the bottom line0
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I think it's low coming on here talking about lads just because of who there related too, those lads have all Ireland club, fitz gibbon medals and county titles in their arse pockets, they are as good as what we have that's the bottom line
In fairness the bull****-ometer has gone in to overdrive here since sunday. As you would expect. Just people looking for excuses. The fact that were just not good enough at the moment seems to be beyond people.
Best we can hope for is a big improvement in the qualifiers and with so many young players coming through our fortunes are bound to change in tge next year or 2 hopefully0 -
In fairness the bull****-ometer has gone in to overdrive here since sunday. As you would expect. Just people looking for excuses. The fact that were just not good enough at the moment seems to be beyond people.
Best we can hope for is a big improvement in the qualifiers and with so many young players coming through our fortunes are bound to change in tge next year or 2 hopefully
Exactly. Plus the added bonus that we did actually get a draw the first day. If we'd have got that trimming first as expected we would not have had a glimpse of how on a good day we can compete.0 -
utter cock ,,they should give you the managers job with that attitude ,,,ie,hopefully next two years,tonnes of players in this county but not a manager with a pair of ballsIn fairness the bull****-ometer has gone in to overdrive here since sunday. As you would expect. Just people looking for excuses. The fact that were just not good enough at the moment seems to be beyond people.
Best we can hope for is a big improvement in the qualifiers and with so many young players coming through our fortunes are bound to change in tge next year or 2 hopefully0 -
The truth lies somewhere in between - the majority not looking for excuses , just explanations.
This team is a mixture of youth and experience - the likes of Lawlor, Connors, Moran, Brick, Nagle, Molomphy, S. Prendergast, Foley, S O'Sullivan and Shane Walsh are around for years and are battle hardened. Mahony, Dillon, Fives, Maurice, Socks and B. O'Sullivan are all relatively young but relatively experienced. The rest of the lads are young, but have good underage experience. This panel should have improved on last years showing
I believe they are all good hurlers capable of holding their own against any team in the country and I for one cannot accept the beatings and moreover the manner of the beatings, that they have shipped this year against Clare, Kiilkenny and Cork.
The first two were in the league, in let us say an experimental stage, so there could be leeway allowed, but for last weekend there is no excuse. Our set up was wrong, our mentality appears to have been wrong and our preparation at a fitness level appears to have been poor. The players are the same as last year with some quality additions, so the management needs to have a look at itself.
On the management, I believe in Derek McGrath's ability as a coach, I hope he has accepted that any tactic has a potential downside and has to be willing to adapt quickly when this downside is exposed. As Einstein once said, the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expect a different result" The system we played against Cork is one of high risk, trying to play possession all the time as it requires space, accuracy and a high level of fitness. The first day it worked for 60% of the game, why because Cork were unprepared and caught by surprise. The last day it failed miserably. Why, because Cork were prepared and adapted their game plan to combat the strengths and exploit the weakness in our plan and we duly obliged them by adopting the same plan.
The majority of supporters believe there is far more in this team and rightly so. The majority believe that on any given day there is very little between the top 9 teams in the country at present and that is why days like last Sunday, and like Cusack Park and Nowlan Park are not acceptable.0 -
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The truth lies somewhere in between - the majority not looking for excuses , just explanations.
This team is a mixture of youth and experience - the likes of Lawlor, Connors, Moran, Brick, Nagle, Molomphy, S. Prendergast, Foley, S O'Sullivan and Shane Walsh are around for years and are battle hardened. Mahony, Dillon, Fives, Maurice, Socks and B. O'Sullivan are all relatively young but relatively experienced. The rest of the lads are young, but have good underage experience. This panel should have improved on last years showing
I believe they are all good hurlers capable of holding their own against any team in the country and I for one cannot accept the beatings and moreover the manner of the beatings, that they have shipped this year against Clare, Kiilkenny and Cork.
The first two were in the league, in let us say an experimental stage, so there could be leeway allowed, but for last weekend there is no excuse. Our set up was wrong, our mentality appears to have been wrong and our preparation at a fitness level appears to have been poor. The players are the same as last year with some quality additions, so the management needs to have a look at itself.
On the management, I believe in Derek McGrath's ability as a coach, I hope he has accepted that any tactic has a potential downside and has to be willing to adapt quickly when this downside is exposed. As Einstein once said, the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expect a different result" The system we played against Cork is one of high risk, trying to play possession all the time as it requires space, accuracy and a high level of fitness. The first day it worked for 60% of the game, why because Cork were unprepared and caught by surprise. The last day it failed miserably. Why, because Cork were prepared and adapted their game plan to combat the strengths and exploit the weakness in our plan and we duly obliged them by adopting the same plan.
The majority of supporters believe there is far more in this team and rightly so. The majority believe that on any given day there is very little between the top 9 teams in the country at present and that is why days like last Sunday, and like Cusack Park and Nowlan Park are not acceptable.
some good points BlueFlame. The most annoying thing for me the last day was the puck out strategy. Watching it with my mate I turned to him with about 20 minutes gone saying Soky needs to vary the puck outs as the Cork half back line were cleaning us out. Got to half time and still no change. Said surely they will change it at half time and mix it up with some short and try a pick a man in space. Into the second half no change - kept raining balls down onto the Cork half back line. Very frustrating!!
If we are going to insist on pucking direct ball onto the half forwards we need to develop ball winners which we are currently lacking. In the drawn game we varied the puck outs and it worked very well.
We now need to draw a line under the last day - I think we will still be competitive this year and heres hoping for a much improved showing in the qualifiers.0 -
One thing i worry about from a long term perspective is the complete lack of pace throughout the side.. Names are being thrown about here on guys who haven't got a chance but none of these guys are speed merchants to add to what we have.. So its a reason i feel a lot of these guys wont develop any further.
And there lies the problem i had with Mcgrath system.. You need pace in the side to carry it out something especially in the forwards we don't have.. He is fitting a system onto players who against the top sides will never be able to carry it out for that reason.. Look at Cork, Clare, Tipp and lessor extent Limerick they are absolute flyers in their side.. I couldnt tell you one forward we have who would burn a guy and go for goal or score a rake of points...0 -
I agree, BOS big advantage in club is his pace, at inter county corner backs are lightning too, I think that's why tommy ryan didn't flourish.
That or two in the full forward line (sometimes one) into three in the full back line dont go. The free man will always keep an eye on the fastest member of the forward line in these circumstances as will the players own man.0 -
Clare won the All Ireland Senior Hurling title with a large number of U-21s. There seems to be a determination among some people in the media in Waterford to pretend that progress is being made. This team has gone back since last year. Time to face facts!!In fairness the bull****-ometer has gone in to overdrive here since sunday. As you would expect. Just people looking for excuses. The fact that were just not good enough at the moment seems to be beyond people.
Best we can hope for is a big improvement in the qualifiers and with so many young players coming through our fortunes are bound to change in tge next year or 2 hopefully0 -
What has Happened to kevin moran, looks slow, cumbersome and downright disinterested, also the placing of Kevin and shane o sullivan in midfield for most of the replay was awful, For his positive traits shane does not read the game well, maybe he gets too uptight i don't know, and kevin is not hurling well, and seems unable to break that and he responds by hurling within himself, so we had no drive from midfield at all for most of the game, why was this not a huge issue for the sideline?, and also re sokys puckouts, you will always get some spillage from guys hurling with no confidence, they don't want the ball so its harder to find them, and our midfielders were shot, one or two quick puckouts [if successfull] changes things up again, as it looks terrible when you see balls flying over the sideline, i am going to give derek and the lads the benefit of the doubt, but only because well what else can you do?, also i thought Colin Dunford hurled like he deserved to be there and looks very dangerous up to the point he was injured , Hope he recovers soon, as we will need him, not going to dump on young gleeson, as he is a talent, but would like to see him do a little less theatrics, we've seen to many of that with a certain eoin kelly, and never deliver on his talent in Waterford, but i think he will mature into a great for Waterford, and also i think tadgh burke will be a massive talent, its not all bad, but our Sideline is worrying.0
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One thing i worry about from a long term perspective is the complete lack of pace throughout the side.. Names are being thrown about here on guys who haven't got a chance but none of these guys are speed merchants to add to what we have.. So its a reason i feel a lot of these guys wont develop any further.
And there lies the problem i had with Mcgrath system.. You need pace in the side to carry it out something especially in the forwards we don't have.. He is fitting a system onto players who against the top sides will never be able to carry it out for that reason.. Look at Cork, Clare, Tipp and lessor extent Limerick they are absolute flyers in their side.. I couldnt tell you one forward we have who would burn a guy and go for goal or score a rake of points...
A very fair point re pace. Look at Dunford, I think of all the names that started in the forward line he would probably have been the biggest surprise to be included if you were picking a team from the end of last year, and yet he was the most effective.
Would say that neither Shane Walsh or Jake Dillon in particular are fit, will they be fit by the time the next game rolls round? Not convinced, both missed an awful lot of preparation time. Maurice will start the next day Id say, but wholl be dropped?0 -
Horseboxhead wrote: »What has Happened to kevin moran, looks slow, cumbersome and downright disinterested, also the placing of Kevin and shane o sullivan in midfield for most of the replay was awful, For his positive traits shane does not read the game well, maybe he gets too uptight i don't know, and kevin is not hurling well, and seems unable to break that and he responds by hurling within himself, so we had no drive from midfield at all for most of the game, why was this not a huge issue for the sideline?, and also re sokys puckouts, you will always get some spillage from guys hurling with no confidence, they don't want the ball so its harder to find them, and our midfielders were shot, one or two quick puckouts [if successfull] changes things up again, as it looks terrible when you see balls flying over the sideline, i am going to give derek and the lads the benefit of the doubt, but only because well what else can you do?, also i thought Colin Dunford hurled like he deserved to be there and looks very dangerous up to the point he was injured , Hope he recovers soon, as we will need him, not going to dump on young gleeson, as he is a talent, but would like to see him do a little less theatrics, we've seen to many of that with a certain eoin kelly, and never deliver on his talent in Waterford, but i think he will mature into a great for Waterford, and also i think tadgh burke will be a massive talent, its not all bad, but our Sideline is worrying.
O'sullivan I never got anyway. I dont see why he always needs to be a shoe-in. Hes not going to improve at his age in fact I think he has regressed in recent seasons and I dont he has anything more to offer.
Moran is a shadow of the player he was in recent seasons. It must be the biggest setback of all for derek mcgrath. he surely would have looked at his fellow clubman as a pivotal guy in which to build his team around but for whatever reason he is gone totally off the boil.
Comparing gleeson to kelly is not comparing like with like. I like gleesons arrogance I think its a positive. Theres nothing wrong with a bit of self confidence and its part of the reason he has stepped up to senior so quickly. Kellys arrogance was different, more disruptive nature but to say that he never delivered on his potential at intercounty level wouldnt be correct either.0 -
O'sullivan I never got anyway. I dont see why he always needs to be a shoe-in. Hes not going to improve at his age in fact I think he has regressed in recent seasons and I dont he has anything more to offer.
Moran is a shadow of the player he was in recent seasons. It must be the biggest setback of all for derek mcgrath. he surely would have looked at his fellow clubman as a pivotal guy in which to build his team around but for whatever reason he is gone totally off the boil.
Comparing gleeson to kelly is not comparing like with like. I like gleesons arrogance I think its a positive. Theres nothing wrong with a bit of self confidence and its part of the reason he has stepped up to senior so quickly. Kellys arrogance was different, more disruptive nature but to say that he never delivered on his potential at intercounty level wouldnt be correct either.
To say that Kelly never delivered on his potential would be wrong, but he never came anywhere near fulfilling his potential.
He blew on to the scene in 2002 as a twenty year old and I think his best year ever in a Waterford Jersey was 2004, he was a phenomenal hurler and the sight of him striking the ball over the bar from distance at full tilt without impacting whatsoever on his stride was a sight to behold.
it was down hill from there, he had an unbelievable talent which kept him in the thick of things but he regressed from there.
by 2007 as a 25 year old he had left Mt. Sion, the best hurling club in the county, he had a bit of a resurgence in 2008 after a terrible start to the year (not attending the foreign training camp or the Clare game) but in all honesty we played no-one except Kilkenny that summer and we all know how that turned out. at this point still only 26 and should have been driving on to take up the reins as a leader of the team, but it was a slow death to the finish, the guy is still only 32, only a couple of months older than Brick, look how pivotal brick is to use for the last four years? where was Kelly? he should have been the same.... Who had more talent brick or kelly? not all about talent i suppose is it?0 -
Football half time. Waterford 0-6 Clare 1-60
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2-9 to 0-6 now.0
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To say that Kelly never delivered on his potential would be wrong, but he never came anywhere near fulfilling his potential.
He blew on to the scene in 2002 as a twenty year old and I think his best year ever in a Waterford Jersey was 2004, he was a phenomenal hurler and the sight of him striking the ball over the bar from distance at full tilt without impacting whatsoever on his stride was a sight to behold.
it was down hill from there, he had an unbelievable talent which kept him in the thick of things but he regressed from there.
by 2007 as a 25 year old he had left Mt. Sion, the best hurling club in the county, he had a bit of a resurgence in 2008 after a terrible start to the year (not attending the foreign training camp or the Clare game) but in all honesty we played no-one except Kilkenny that summer and we all know how that turned out. at this point still only 26 and should have been driving on to take up the reins as a leader of the team, but it was a slow death to the finish, the guy is still only 32, only a couple of months older than Brick, look how pivotal brick is to use for the last four years? where was Kelly? he should have been the same.... Who had more talent brick or kelly? not all about talent i suppose is it?
We wouldnt have made it to the 08 AI final only for kelly in the first place. 09 he was our best player against kk in the all ireland semi. From '10 onwards he seemed over the hill but its obvious the Hunger just wasnt there and thats something you cant give or coach. So be it. he still gave a lot in fairness to him0 -
We wouldnt have made it to the 08 AI final only for kelly in the first place. 09 he was our best player against kk in the all ireland semi. From '10 onwards he seemed over the hill but its obvious the Hunger just wasnt there and thats something you cant give or coach. So be it. he still gave a lot in fairness to him
Id give that to Molumphy more. He won everything coming into midfield and a ridiculous amount of breaking ball. Kilkenny only started getting the upper hand after he came off (Ill never understand that sub)0 -
We wouldnt have made it to the 08 AI final only for kelly in the first place. 09 he was our best player against kk in the all ireland semi. From '10 onwards he seemed over the hill but its obvious the Hunger just wasnt there and thats something you cant give or coach. So be it. he still gave a lot in fairness to him
As I said he has a resurgence in 2008,
But that year we played Clare (lost) Antrim, Offaly, wexford, Tipp (won) and Kilkenny (ugh), so you could say that the only real result we got that year was against Tipp. You describe him as over the hill in 2009 - he was 27!!!
In saying that my point still stands, he came no where near fulfilling his potential, he had sensational ability...0 -
Id fear Wexford if we draw them.
Getting a result in Wexford park would be hard0 -
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As I said he has a resurgence in 2008,
But that year we played Clare (lost) Antrim, Offaly, wexford, Tipp (won) and Kilkenny (ugh), so you could say that the only real result we got that year was against Tipp. You describe him as over the hill in 2009 - he was 27!!!
In saying that my point still stands, he came no where near fulfilling his potential, he had sensational ability...
2010 I said he started showing signs he was past it. He got a super goal against cork in the munster final but had a shocker in the ai semi against tipp. That was kind of the beginning of the end. Its not unknown for players to lose their touch and a yard of pace in the late 20s. If you look at kellys namesake from tipp hes the exact same age I think he started to slump around the same time he has been well past it with over 3 or 4 years aswell. I know waterfords kelly didnt really show the required desire to be able stay at the top level for a couple more years but my opinion is he was finished anyway and he knew it.
If you look at his performances for passage last year while he was an important member of the team but not a patch on the player he once was. You can say a player is not playing to his ability but when hes past it hes past it theres nothing you can do about that.0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »Anyone you wouldn't fear?
Clearly the only team mr PTH wouldn't fear is eaterford0 -
The footballers were disappointing last night but ultimately the game was swung by black carding the 2 midfielders. First to go after a minute was Shane Aherne in what was a disgraceful decision by the ref. Tommy Prendergast went after 25 mins for a trip which seemed harsh as the Clare player ran through at pace and not sure it was deliberate by Tommy. Nobody else was of adequate standard to play midfield and Clare won ball after ball with Brennan lording it. Waterford lost all shape and Clare capitalised. Support play of the Waterford forwards was atrocious, lost count of the times a forward coughed up the ball as his teamates werent giving him an option for the pass. The O Gormans in the full back line played well for the most part and Paul White and JJ Hutchinson carried the only scoring threat up front. Next up is more than likely a Brendan Murphy less Carlow team so a win is a posdibility and hopefully a mini qualifier run0
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slagging Eoin Kelly ffs ,you should be called horse**** #clownHorseboxhead wrote: »What has Happened to kevin moran, looks slow, cumbersome and downright disinterested, also the placing of Kevin and shane o sullivan in midfield for most of the replay was awful, For his positive traits shane does not read the game well, maybe he gets too uptight i don't know, and kevin is not hurling well, and seems unable to break that and he responds by hurling within himself, so we had no drive from midfield at all for most of the game, why was this not a huge issue for the sideline?, and also re sokys puckouts, you will always get some spillage from guys hurling with no confidence, they don't want the ball so its harder to find them, and our midfielders were shot, one or two quick puckouts [if successfull] changes things up again, as it looks terrible when you see balls flying over the sideline, i am going to give derek and the lads the benefit of the doubt, but only because well what else can you do?, also i thought Colin Dunford hurled like he deserved to be there and looks very dangerous up to the point he was injured , Hope he recovers soon, as we will need him, not going to dump on young gleeson, as he is a talent, but would like to see him do a little less theatrics, we've seen to many of that with a certain eoin kelly, and never deliver on his talent in Waterford, but i think he will mature into a great for Waterford, and also i think tadgh burke will be a massive talent, its not all bad, but our Sideline is worrying.0 -
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i think Eoin Kelly was treated like **** in last few years by D,Fitz ie,playing him corner forward,giving him a subs jersey with the #26 on it totally putting him down ,as for brick great athlete but hurler no way ,very very average and his best years well behind him ,sad but trueTo say that Kelly never delivered on his potential would be wrong, but he never came anywhere near fulfilling his potential.
He blew on to the scene in 2002 as a twenty year old and I think his best year ever in a Waterford Jersey was 2004, he was a phenomenal hurler and the sight of him striking the ball over the bar from distance at full tilt without impacting whatsoever on his stride was a sight to behold.
it was down hill from there, he had an unbelievable talent which kept him in the thick of things but he regressed from there.
by 2007 as a 25 year old he had left Mt. Sion, the best hurling club in the county, he had a bit of a resurgence in 2008 after a terrible start to the year (not attending the foreign training camp or the Clare game) but in all honesty we played no-one except Kilkenny that summer and we all know how that turned out. at this point still only 26 and should have been driving on to take up the reins as a leader of the team, but it was a slow death to the finish, the guy is still only 32, only a couple of months older than Brick, look how pivotal brick is to use for the last four years? where was Kelly? he should have been the same.... Who had more talent brick or kelly? not all about talent i suppose is it?0
This discussion has been closed.
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