Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

hurler on de ditch

Professey Chin wrote: »

Id give that to Molumphy more. He won everything coming into midfield and a ridiculous amount of breaking ball. Kilkenny only started getting the upper hand after he came off (Ill never understand that sub)

Davy Fitz at his best ,,

Professey Chin

Looking at Corks scores here again shows a massive problem with our shooting. Theyre taking points from everywhere from the 70 to the 45.
We'd be looking for someone else to handpass to when they should be sent over the bar

PTH2009

Carlow beating by 7-13 to 0.6 by Meath so I'd say our footballers will fancy there chances against them on the 28th June.

skaface

Cork showed pride in the jersey today
and played as a team.. Two things that
We haven't done in a long time..
The season is far from over if we can start playing for each other, not one another.. and show some pride in the jersey and get back to the way Waterford
can play.. Only then will people start following the team again.There is more than a recession as the reason to why people are staying away from matches..

Deise Doodler

Professey Chin wrote: »

Looking at Corks scores here again shows a massive problem with our shooting. Theyre taking points from everywhere from the 70 to the 45.
We'd be looking for someone else to handpass to when they should be sent over the bar

yes, so much for tactics also, cork did their hurling on the pitch not on the side-line

Slobbery

Deise Doodler wrote: »

yes, so much for tactics also, cork did their hurling on the pitch not on the side-line

Exactly - I heard Fergal Lynch on Newstalk during the week and it was all on about systems and such, he was saying that Clare have seven different systems that they could revert to.
No talk at all about the actually guys out on the field, doesn't matter what system you have if you don't have the players, some of the younger players with clare could play any system you want, tell Tony Kelly to play with one hand behind his back and he probably could (regardless of the result today he is some hurler) that doesn't mean the system is the reason you won.

Professey Chin

This has been creeping in more and more over the last while. Managers looking to be seen as tactical geniuses with different systems without realising how much they need to be able to adapt on the fly. Theyre lucky if it works for 1/2 games before other teams cop on(maybe longer if you have the perfect players) and after that because theyve spent so much time developing it they dont have a plan B. We've seen it with us, Galway (against KK), Cork (high ball against Tipp using Aisake a few years ago), Clare, Tipp etc.
Theres a reason the game has used a standard 3-3-2-3-3 since the start because thats what it really always boils down to. If you cant play this way, youre gonna have big problems.

skaface

Too much talk about tactics in the game these days.. Hurling is a simple game. If you're a back, your job is to mark your man and stop him from scoring, if you're a forward, your job is to try and score.. Your midfield must cover more ground.. Defend at times and get forward when possible.. Time to get back to basics, man for man, one to fifteen.. Start doing our talking on the field, not off the field.

hardybuck

skaface wrote: »

Too much talk about tactics in the game these days.. Hurling is a simple game. If you're a back, your job is to mark your man and stop him from scoring, if you're a forward, your job is to try and score.. Your midfield must cover more ground.. Defend at times and get forward when possible.. Time to get back to basics, man for man, one to fifteen.. Start doing our talking on the field, not off the field.

If things were only this simple...

If you look at that Cork team who gave us our best battles in the 00's, they were a hugely tactical outfit. They squeezed absolutely every morsel of ability out of themselves, and won plenty of games against us on the sideline and on the training ground.

They didn't have a half forward line - in comes the short puck out strategy. To further the short puck out strategy - use lighter sliotars. Donal Og Cusack pulling down the ball going over the bar in the last minute when using a special extended hurl. Cathal Naughton being sent on to exploit a tiring defender in 2012 to win the game in the last 10 mins....these are all elements of tactics which Cork benefited from.

Cork used to go as far as handing out sterilised plastic water bottles for players to drink out of on their way to training as they found out that the old coke and lucozade bottles the lads were using had bacteria in them which could give them colds and sore throats...it's far from a simple game these days.

It's not as if Waterford didn't use tactics themselves in this era either. Justin McCarthy sent out the odd dummy selection. We used to rotate the forwards very successfully also, meaning that the opposition defenders never got comfortable.

Kilkenny, although on the face of it employing a fairly traditional style, have been employing footballing influenced tactics and defending for years. They went as far to liaise closely with the Tyrone football manager in doing so.

blueflame

Every game has a tactic of some nature employed, the most commonly used one "keep the ball away from the big fella" .

The point I and others have been making is that the issue of a "tactical plan or system" is being flogged to death. Team sports will always be about a combination of collective team spirit and work ethic, coupled with individual performance and sometimes brilliance. I still revert to my original point, that to succeed you must compete on every one of the traditional lines no matter whatever your tactics are. Once again for much of the game last Sunday, Cork found their full back line untested as the withdrawal of the Clare corner forwards allowed them superior number and to control that area of the pitch.

The interesting point about all this is that I genuinely feel that this is Cork's weakest link. Look at the two really bad goals they conceded last Sunday and the havoc Honan's presence caused when brought into the game. The same when we brought in Prendergast who won a huge amount of ball we just never got enough support in to exploit it and we were too late anyway. JBM must be delighted with " tactics" that mean little or no pressure being put on his full back line.

Interesting to see that Davy has reverted to his old tactic of blaming defeat on something else that he doesn't want to talk about but then spends 5 minutes repeating himself saying he won't talk about it. Let's face it , we all know McGrath is a very inconsistent referee at best, but that is life, Davy's tactics failed miserably last Sunday end of.

robopaddy

Anyone ever read the book by damien tiernan? just reading it myself now.. I know tis out a few years. but the one thing that strikes me was the money that was spent on the team particularly under davy fitz. Absolutely ludicrous stuff he should never have been left get away with it. No wonder were skint with the past 3 years quite conveniently since he left....

parish girl

We re skint since he left so how is it all his fault.

parish girl

And so what if he did cost us a few bob. Got us to All Ireland semis EVERY year plus All Ireland Final. Well worth every penny. And we made money every year he was with us! Guess we have to speculate to accumulate!

Mountainlad

parish girl wrote: »

And so what if he did cost us a few bob. Got us to All Ireland semis EVERY year plus All Ireland Final. Well worth every penny. And we made money every year he was with us! Guess we have to speculate to accumulate!

We made money?

parish girl

We got in more than we spent so I quess that means we made money.

Mountainlad

parish girl wrote: »

We got in more than we spent so I quess that means we made money.

Every year? So are you saying the 750,000 debt pre dates Davy?

robopaddy

parish girl wrote: »

We re skint since he left so how is it all his fault.

I mean he left just when the money was drying up and it was up to everyone else to clean up the mess and take the flack.

Professey Chin

parish girl wrote: »

We got in more than we spent so I quess that means we made money.

The county board hasnt made a profit since 2008. Our deficit has actually been growing every year since then.
2008 - +€33,970
2009 - -€4,947
2010 - -€94,221
2011 - -€120,430
2012 - -€212,271

2013 isnt on the waterfordgaa.ie site. Hasnt gotten much better since then iirc
Reports are here if you wanna check yourself

skaface

hardybuck wrote: »

If things were only this simple...

If you look at that Cork team who gave us our best battles in the 00's, they were a hugely tactical outfit. They squeezed absolutely every morsel of ability out of themselves, and won plenty of games against us on the sideline and on the training ground.

They didn't have a half forward line - in comes the short puck out strategy. To further the short puck out strategy - use lighter sliotars. Donal Og Cusack pulling down the ball going over the bar in the last minute when using a special extended hurl. Cathal Naughton being sent on to exploit a tiring defender in 2012 to win the game in the last 10 mins....these are all elements of tactics which Cork benefited from.

Cork used to go as far as handing out sterilised plastic water bottles for players to drink out of on their way to training as they found out that the old coke and lucozade bottles the lads were using had bacteria in them which could give them colds and sore throats...it's far from a simple game these days.

It's not as if Waterford didn't use tactics themselves in this era either. Justin McCarthy sent out the odd dummy selection. We used to rotate the forwards very successfully also, meaning that the opposition defenders never got comfortable.

Kilkenny, although on the face of it employing a fairly traditional style, have been employing footballing influenced tactics and defending for years. They went as far to liaise closely with the Tyrone football manager in doing so.

Fair enough, the point I'm trying to make
though is that tactics alone won't do..
Everyone has to buy into it, and if they don't, it's a waste of time. I just think
we're trying to complicate our play too
much and not getting the best out of the
players we have.

robopaddy

Just made me think reading it how good he had it here. compared to poor skully who came in after him and didnt look for a cent and now the players have to fund their own training trips!
Now davy is back in clare with wealth of riches up there taking the plaudits for a super young team which in fact are the product of a very well run underage system up there which was bearing fruit while he was down here... yet all he ever does is complain!

God im gonna stop reading anymore before I burst a blood vessel!!!!

hardybuck

skaface wrote: »

Fair enough, the point I'm trying to make
though is that tactics alone won't do..
Everyone has to buy into it, and if they don't, it's a waste of time. I just think
we're trying to complicate our play too
much and not getting the best out of the
players we have.

Which is also fair enough, I can sense the thrust of your argument, however it's also not good enough to just send lads out and tell them to hurl away man for man.

I would also suggest that the group players we have are not currently as good as the other top counties, which is another argument.

Professey Chin

robopaddy wrote: »

Just made me think reading it how good he had it here. compared to poor skully who came in after him and didnt look for a cent and now the players have to fund their own training trips!
Now davy is back in clare with wealth of riches up there taking the plaudits for a super young team which in fact are the product of a very well run underage system up there which was bearing fruit while he was down here... yet all he ever does is complain!

God im gonna stop reading anymore before I burst a blood vessel!!!!

He had it too good in the way he was given whatever he wanted pretty much without question but a lot of the blame has to go to the yokels in the County Board bending over for him at ever oppertunity. Unfortunately there'll be no change there.
Well unless someone can nail Tom with something next time he's out on the sidelines before a match. He does love the limelight

hardybuck

robopaddy wrote: »

Just made me think reading it how good he had it here. compared to poor skully who came in after him and didnt look for a cent and now the players have to fund their own training trips!
Now davy is back in clare with wealth of riches up there taking the plaudits for a super young team which in fact are the product of a very well run underage system up there which was bearing fruit while he was down here... yet all he ever does is complain!

God im gonna stop reading anymore before I burst a blood vessel!!!!

Define 'didn't look for a cent'? Are you suggesting he didn't receive any funding?

skaface

hardybuck wrote: »

Which is also fair enough, I can sense the thrust of your argument, however it's also not good enough to just send lads out and tell them to hurl away man for man.

I would also suggest that the group players we have are not currently as good as the other top counties, which is another argument.

Ya, we're a bit behind but look at Cork.
JBM is getting the best out of his team,
We need to look at the improvement they
made since the drawn game.
Some of our more seasoned players don't
Seem to have the desire when the game is in the melting pot, this needs to be addressed.
I'm expecting a massive response from us in the qualifiers, regardless of who we
get.

Black Suir

robopaddy wrote: »

Anyone ever read the book by damien tiernan? just reading it myself now.. I know tis out a few years. but the one thing that strikes me was the money that was spent on the team particularly under davy fitz. Absolutely ludicrous stuff he should never have been left get away with it. No wonder were skint with the past 3 years quite conveniently since he left....

For him to get the team all new gear etc after he came was madness. I dont know what gear was available before he came but the county board was bound to have some, even if it was an old set of jerseys for one team to play an in-house game in and another in t-shirts of jeseys from other counties. Having to get all new gear with the players initials on the sleave or breast of a shirt will not make a hurler of you. I also feel that some of what was spend from June 2008 to 2011 will never be made known fully. I am not saying there was anything under the counter done, just that some things that had to be paid for may be put in under a general payment for getting teams ready.

Black Suir

parish girl wrote: »

We re skint since he left so how is it all his fault.

Because what money we did have before he came was spent in his time here.

Jarjohn

If there is anyone on here from the County Board could they please update and sort out the Waterford GAA website. No results for past week even though there was games and fixtures are lacking bigtime. A lot of championships in Adult grade have no fixtures set. It's madness as we now are in qualifiers near the end of June and should have a full club fixture list for the next 8 weeks at least. I have spoken with a number of other clubs who are also in the dark and nobody knows when games are on, and no notification of dates to club secretary.

Black Suir

parish girl wrote: »

And so what if he did cost us a few bob. Got us to All Ireland semis EVERY year plus All Ireland Final. Well worth every penny. And we made money every year he was with us! Guess we have to speculate to accumulate!

We got to semi finals before he arrived as well. We won a league and three Munster finals before he arrived. Many feel we only got to an All-Ireland in 08 because the team had something to prove after getting rid of Justin.

skaface

Black Suir wrote: »

Because what money we did have before he came was spent in his time here.

I blame Jedward myself :-)

Black Suir

robopaddy wrote: »

Just made me think reading it how good he had it here. compared to poor skully who came in after him and didnt look for a cent and now the players have to fund their own training trips!
Now davy is back in clare with wealth of riches up there taking the plaudits for a super young team which in fact are the product of a very well run underage system up there which was bearing fruit while he was down here... yet all he ever does is complain!

God im gonna stop reading anymore before I burst a blood vessel!!!!

A lot of managers are like this, even here in Waterford. Would we have won the All-Ireland Minor level last year if we did not have such an exceptional group of players. I doubt it. I know there was some good people in the back room team, many of them who we heard very little from them, which i think is a good thing, they just got on with their job. Sean Power was the manager and took all the plaudits including leading the players over Rice Bridge on returning from Dublin. I feel that the players should have lead the way and the management team behind them, as its the players that are remembered for winning, not the management. I always had my doubts over Sean Power as a manager. I think the fact he is not with any of the inter county teams this years proves to an extent that it is the players we had that helped most last year. However it has not stopped sean from taking the lime light, and even gave the impression after the final when we were looking for a manager to replace skully (well we might have had one in waiting and only needed to be ratified) that he was interested in the job. It came across that way to me when i heard him interviewed on WLR a few days after the final.