Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

Hslaw

KevIRL wrote: »

Allow me to engage with an all to rare bit of optimism for this thread.

- On Saturday we overcome a stiff Laois challenge, never fully comfortable, we get there in the end by 3 points
- In the draw for the next round of the qualifiers we get Antrim at home, and actually have a more comfortable game than against Laois to run out 7 point winners
- The All Ireland Quarter final draw pits us against Limerick, who are somewhat deflated after losing their Munster title to Cork. We on the otherhand are seeing confidence rising after a couple of wins and some injured players getting back to full fitness, we start like a train and despite a Limerick recovery, Waterford have enough to win by 2 points
- New Leinster champions Kilkenny await in the semi final and in a huge shock we catch them cold to win by 4points. Afterwards the general feeling is Kilkenny were over confident and had one eye on the All Ireland final
- In September we face Dublin in the all Ireland final. Massive hype surrounds the Dubs as they aim to do a hurling/football double. The consensus about Waterford is a young team who will be back but these has come too soon for them. On the day the Dubs freeze under the expectation and Waterford led by seasoned campaigners Kevin Moran and Brick Walsh (MOTM) win by 5 points


QED

Lets hope your right Keb

Deise Doodler

blueflame wrote: »

Going back to the Minors really looking forward to seeing seeing Colm Roche at center back - from memory last year in a challenge against Limerick (or could have been Dublin as they were played one Saturday after the other) up in Walsh Park - at half time they switched him to Center Back at half time to replace Austin Gleeson, who had been outstanding in the first half. They were both wearing the same colour helmet that day and it took spectators nearly the entire second half to realise that Gleeson had gone off. He gave an exhibition of center back play that day, and if he can impose his influence games as Gleeson did last year , cannot wait to see.

Interested to note that Edmond O'Halloran not in starting line up, nor Craig Browne, wondering if they are injured or just off form - if off from will add to a very strong bench.

Final note hope Patrick Curran gets the protection of the referee, he has taken some ridiculous punishment since last year.

Yes , it was against Dublin I think and he was outstanding when moved back to centre back hadn't really been in the game much before then

cul beag

Big test for the minors tomorrow night. Clare will definitely have improved since the last game with us so hopefully we can do it. Big crowd id imagine will travel in what will be an interesting week for Waterford hurling in general.

Giveitfong

Some delayed reflections on the Waterford v Cork replay...

In his comments on the England/Uruguay World Cup game the other night, John Giles observed that if you do not at least match the tempo at which your opponents are playing you have little chance of beating them. This was Waterford’s main problem in the replay against Cork. Unlike much of the drawn game, where the reverse applied, Cork played at a higher tempo than Waterford. Even before the game started. I commented to my companions at the game that the Cork warm-up drills looked faster and sharper than Waterford’s. That said, I was astonished that Derek McGrath admitted this to the press after the game – as manager, he has ultimate responsibility for ensuring that preparations are at the required standard.

Inferior tempo is usually just one of a number of symptoms of a team which is not mentally right for the task at hand. Waterford lacked altertness and focus, while their first touch and striking (including a lot of bad wides) were poor, as was their decision-making. So even when they did have possession, they made poor use of it. I counted 15 instances where Waterford sent long balls into the forward line and they were intercepted by a Cork defender, either because there was no Waterford player at the end of the ball, or the Cork player got out first to clear. To an extent this was due to Waterford players hitting the ball under pressure, but additional factors were a lack of concentration on the part of the striker, or the intended receiver (or both).

However, there were a couple of exceptions to this general observation. To their credit, both Shane Fives and Colin Dunford were playing at the required level from the beginning, while (apart from being skinned once by Alan Cadogan) I thought Paudie Prendergast did well when he came on early in the game for the injured Noel Connors.

Apart from the first 15 minutes, Waterford were unable to get any decent possession around midfield and in the half forward line in the first half. Part of this was due to Cork’s superiority in these areas, where they were more physical (driving into the play and winning all the 50/50 balls) and faster everywhere to the breaking ball. Puckout strategy also played its part. In the first 15 minutes of the game, when Waterford were doing quite well, they won four of their first five puckouts, two of which were short or directed puckouts. Of their remaining 15 puckouts in the first half they won only three (two of these being short puckouts). This was the crucial period when Cork established a stranglehold over proceedings.

In the second half, Waterford got a better share of possession, winning more than half of both their own puckouts (mainly through short/directed puckouts) and Cork's puckouts. But continued poor use of the ball was compounded by the second key factor in Waterford's defeat i.e. the way the team was set up, involving the withdrawal of forwards out the field and only leaving one or, at most, two inside (and sometimes none). As the drawn game showed, to an extent this can work if you are getting good clean possession in the outfield and are able to give well-directed balls to the inside line. However, when you are under pressure in the middle third, the result is poorly directed and frequently high balls which are meat and drink to the opposing defence, especially when they have the benefit of an extra man.

In fact, Cork actually used the Waterford formation to their own benefit, with their half backs in particular passing the ball back to an unmarked defender who had all the time in the world to feed the ball to midfielders and half forwards running into space. The league hammerings by Clare and Kilkenny showed that when you are losing the battle in the middle third, this so-called "defensive" formation provides little defence. Waterford played their best hurling in the league in the early stages of the play-off against Dublin using an orthodox formation, until Shane O'Sullivan's sending-off and Anthony Daly's shrewd use of the extra man gave Dublin a decisive advantage.

A fortnight before the first Cork match, Waterford also used an orthodox formation against Offaly in a challenge in Carrickbeg and ran riot, running up six goals in the process. While it was a very loose game and Offaly clearly have fallen back a lot, Waterford still looked very comfortable with the orthodox setup.

There were numerous examples of the shortcomings of Derek McGrath's setup in the Cork game. In the 17th minute Kevin Moran took a short puckout from Sockie and drove a long high ball down towards Shane Walsh, accompanied by a Cork defender, 20 metres from the Cork goal. The defender knocked the ball down to other inrushing Cork backs, with no other Waterford player in sight.

In the 23rd minute Brick Walsh intercepted an attempted pass 35 metres from the Cork goal and played the ball along the ground towards the goal. There was no Waterford forward inside him. Brick chased after the ball but no fewer than four Cork defenders descended on the loose ball to clear, with two nearby Waterford forwards looking on.

In the 28th minute Jamie Nagle sent a long free in to Shane Walsh in the Cork goal area. Again, Shane's marker simply knocked the ball down to another loose Cork defender to clear. There was no Waterford player within 40 metres of Shane Walsh when the ball came in, and nobody followed the ball in.

In the 67th minute when a high ball was played into Seamus Prendergast at full forward there was no other Waterford player inside the 45 metre line. Due to his lack of pace there is no point in leaving Prendergast alone like this - there should always be a player running alongside to take the pass. Cork were doing this all over the field.

It was also noticeable that several of Pat Horgan's points from play came from him waiting for two or more Waterford defenders challenging for incoming ball with a single Cork attacker, with Horgan picking up the breaking ball and tapping over unchallenged. This is nuts and bolts coaching stuff.

I also thought that Derek McGrath's game management was very poor. It was an error of judgement to allow Noel Connors to start after he hurt himself in the warm-up - he was gone after his first attempt to play the ball. The decision not to start Shane Fives in the first game was a major error, especially as he was one of our most impressive performers in the league (except when he was left exposed by opposition players running riot in the outfield and sending in choice ball to their forwards). His failure to give Paudie Prendergast even a minute of game time in the league was very strange, given Paudie's performances last year and this year with UCC in the Fitzgibbon Cup. Paudie's display when he came on against Cork makes his league exclusion even more peculiar.

After 20 minutes against Cork, McGrath should have brought on a couple of subs, partly as shock treatment to help concentrate the remaining players' minds, and partly to stem the huge gaps which were apparent in the middle third. In particular I would have brought in Stephen Molumphy to take on the rampant Daniel Kearney and would have moved Kevin Moran out to try and tackle Aidan Walsh's physical superiority. Moving Jamie Nagle into midfield made no sense at all. I also would have swapped the clearly in-form Shane Fives with Tadhg de Búrca who was unable to impose himself in the half back line. None of the Waterford forwards except Colin Dunford were making any impression, yet we had to wait until the 47th minute before any of them was taken off (apart from the injured Dunford just before then).

Bringing Maurice Shanahan on a full forward also made no sense, partly because we desperately needed to shore up the half forward line and partly because it should be obvious by now that Maurice is not suited to the full forward position.

Derek McGrath keeps saying that this is all a learning experience for him and his mentors. However, you would have to ask if people who obviously have so much to learn should be in charge of teams at this level of hurling. And you would also have to ask if there is any evidence that they are actually learning anything.

robopaddy

HillFarmer wrote: »

Don't like Roche centre back, he's a natural forward. Have a look at lasts years games again. I haven't seen any games this year but who was the staring center back the first day out against Clare? Bennet?

Would have preferred to see Roche on wing forward, I think he's a great talent.

No way lad. He'll be more beneficial to the team at centre back. Bennett was out of position there the last day. I think moving Bennett into the forwards is a good move he can create havoc when running at defences and open up more space for the likes of p.curran who will obviously be closely marked.

A bit sceptical about so many changes to a team that actually won the last day. Id be worried that the management dosent know what their best team is. But the spine of the team is looking much stronger. Sutton and Roche are huge additions at full and centre back, both very physical players.

Theres a perception that we should be winning this game just because we beat them the first day but it dosent work like that at minor level. Theres pressure on our lads aswell being AI champions but theres only 3 of that starting team playing tomorrow night. Its a huge challenge but Id just like to wish the lads the best of luck and hope it goes well for them. Looking forward to it.

cul beag

Giveitfong wrote: »

Some delayed reflections on the Waterford v Cork replay...

In his comments on the England/Uruguay World Cup game the other night, John Giles observed that if you do not at least match the tempo at which your opponents are playing you have little chance of beating them. This was Waterford’s main problem in the replay against Cork. Unlike much of the drawn game, where the reverse applied, Cork played at a higher tempo than Waterford. Even before the game started. I commented to my companions at the game that the Cork warm-up drills looked faster and sharper than Waterford’s. That said, I was astonished that Derek McGrath admitted this to the press after the game – as manager, he has ultimate responsibility for ensuring that preparations are at the required standard.

Inferior tempo is usually just one of a number of symptoms of a team which is not mentally right for the task at hand. Waterford lacked altertness and focus, while their first touch and striking (including a lot of bad wides) were poor, as was their decision-making. So even when they did have possession, they made poor use of it. I counted 15 instances where Waterford sent long balls into the forward line and they were intercepted by a Cork defender, either because there was no Waterford player at the end of the ball, or the Cork player got out first to clear. To an extent this was due to Waterford players hitting the ball under pressure, but additional factors were a lack of concentration on the part of the striker, or the intended receiver (or both).

However, there were a couple of exceptions to this general observation. To their credit, both Shane Fives and Colin Dunford were playing at the required level from the beginning, while (apart from being skinned once by Alan Cadogan) I thought Paudie Prendergast did well when he came on early in the game for the injured Noel Connors.

Apart from the first 15 minutes, Waterford were unable to get any decent possession around midfield and in the half forward line in the first half. Part of this was due to Cork’s superiority in these areas, where they were more physical (driving into the play and winning all the 50/50 balls) and faster everywhere to the breaking ball. Puckout strategy also played its part. In the first 15 minutes of the game, when Waterford were doing quite well, they won four of their first five puckouts, two of which were short or directed puckouts. Of their remaining 15 puckouts in the first half they won only three (two of these being short puckouts). This was the crucial period when Cork established a stranglehold over proceedings.

In the second half, Waterford got a better share of possession, winning more than half of both their own puckouts (mainly through short/directed puckouts) and Cork's puckouts. But continued poor use of the ball was compounded by the second key factor in Waterford's defeat i.e. the way the team was set up, involving the withdrawal of forwards out the field and only leaving one or, at most, two inside (and sometimes none). As the drawn game showed, to an extent this can work if you are getting good clean possession in the outfield and are able to give well-directed balls to the inside line. However, when you are under pressure in the middle third, the result is poorly directed and frequently high balls which are meat and drink to the opposing defence, especially when they have the benefit of an extra man.

In fact, Cork actually used the Waterford formation to their own benefit, with their half backs in particular passing the ball back to an unmarked defender who had all the time in the world to feed the ball to midfielders and half forwards running into space. The league hammerings by Clare and Kilkenny showed that when you are losing the battle in the middle third, this so-called "defensive" formation provides little defence. Waterford played their best hurling in the league in the early stages of the play-off against Dublin using an orthodox formation, until Shane O'Sullivan's sending-off and Anthony Daly's shrewd use of the extra man gave Dublin a decisive advantage.

A fortnight before the first Cork match, Waterford also used an orthodox formation against Offaly in a challenge in Carrickbeg and ran riot, running up six goals in the process. While it was a very loose game and Offaly clearly have fallen back a lot, Waterford still looked very comfortable with the orthodox setup.

There were numerous examples of the shortcomings of Derek McGrath's setup in the Cork game. In the 17th minute Kevin Moran took a short puckout from Sockie and drove a long high ball down towards Shane Walsh, accompanied by a Cork defender, 20 metres from the Cork goal. The defender knocked the ball down to other inrushing Cork backs, with no other Waterford player in sight.

In the 23rd minute Brick Walsh intercepted an attempted pass 35 metres from the Cork goal and played the ball along the ground towards the goal. There was no Waterford forward inside him. Brick chased after the ball but no fewer than four Cork defenders descended on the loose ball to clear, with two nearby Waterford forwards looking on.

In the 28th minute Jamie Nagle sent a long free in to Shane Walsh in the Cork goal area. Again, Shane's marker simply knocked the ball down to another loose Cork defender to clear. There was no Waterford player within 40 metres of Shane Walsh when the ball came in, and nobody followed the ball in.

In the 67th minute when a high ball was played into Seamus Prendergast at full forward there was no other Waterford player inside the 45 metre line. Due to his lack of pace there is no point in leaving Prendergast alone like this - there should always be a player running alongside to take the pass. Cork were doing this all over the field.

It was also noticeable that several of Pat Horgan's points from play came from him waiting for two or more Waterford defenders challenging for incoming ball with a single Cork attacker, with Horgan picking up the breaking ball and tapping over unchallenged. This is nuts and bolts coaching stuff.

I also thought that Derek McGrath's game management was very poor. It was an error of judgement to allow Noel Connors to start after he hurt himself in the warm-up - he was gone after his first attempt to play the ball. The decision not to start Shane Fives in the first game was a major error, especially as he was one of our most impressive performers in the league (except when he was left exposed by opposition players running riot in the outfield and sending in choice ball to their forwards). His failure to give Paudie Prendergast even a minute of game time in the league was very strange, given Paudie's performances last year and this year with UCC in the Fitzgibbon Cup. Paudie's display when he came on against Cork makes his league exclusion even more peculiar.

After 20 minutes against Cork, McGrath should have brought on a couple of subs, partly as shock treatment to help concentrate the remaining players' minds, and partly to stem the huge gaps which were apparent in the middle third. In particular I would have brought in Stephen Molumphy to take on the rampant Daniel Kearney and would have moved Kevin Moran out to try and tackle Aidan Walsh's physical superiority. Moving Jamie Nagle into midfield made no sense at all. I also would have swapped the clearly in-form Shane Fives with Tadhg de Búrca who was unable to impose himself in the half back line. None of the Waterford forwards except Colin Dunford were making any impression, yet we had to wait until the 47th minute before any of them was taken off (apart from the injured Dunford just before then).

Bringing Maurice Shanahan on a full forward also made no sense, partly because we desperately needed to shore up the half forward line and partly because it should be obvious by now that Maurice is not suited to the full forward position.

Derek McGrath keeps saying that this is all a learning experience for him and his mentors. However, you would have to ask if people who obviously have so much to learn should be in charge of teams at this level of hurling. And you would also have to ask if there is any evidence that they are actually learning anything.

Serious analysis and I have to agree with your prognosis. We're definitely at a crossroads at the moment I'm just hoping he's learned from previous errors,and lets be honest there has been a few already this year. Lets wait and see what Sat brings........

Horseboxhead

i hope we beat the ****e out of Clare tonight, i mean really hammer them, time to stop the noise, and also to give us a big lift, as the seniors are chronic, a nice run in the minor and u21's would be a tonic, anyway i'm off to the fraher field to take a dump in the away teams sinks.

HillFarmer

robopaddy wrote: »

No way lad. He'll be more beneficial to the team at centre back. Bennett was out of position there the last day. I think moving Bennett into the forwards is a good move he can create havoc when running at defences and open up more space for the likes of p.curran who will obviously be closely marked.

A bit sceptical about so many changes to a team that actually won the last day. Id be worried that the management dosent know what their best team is. But the spine of the team is looking much stronger. Sutton and Roche are huge additions at full and centre back, both very physical players.

Theres a perception that we should be winning this game just because we beat them the first day but it dosent work like that at minor level. Theres pressure on our lads aswell being AI champions but theres only 3 of that starting team playing tomorrow night. Its a huge challenge but Id just like to wish the lads the best of luck and hope it goes well for them. Looking forward to it.

Hope your right, havnt seen any of this years bunch. Best of luck to all of them , I'll be listening from down under in the early hours

Deise_abu

TheScoringGoal wrote: »

It's a pity some of these games are not on youtube or even the GAA website. I imagine the film is lying in an RTE basement. The Munster Final in 2002 is another I find difficult to find.

The only time I have seen footage again of the Waterford v kk game in 98 was on the laochra gael about the O'Connors, very difficult viewing as this was heralded as Willies finest hour

Hslaw

what time is throw in tonight am i right in saying 7pm or is it earlier ?

KevIRL

Hslaw wrote: »

what time is throw in tonight am i right in saying 7pm or is it earlier ?

7.30 I belueve

gavwaldo

HillFarmer wrote: »

Hope your right, havnt seen any of this years bunch. Best of luck to all of them , I'll be listening from down under in the early hours

is the game on wlr tonight or the ususal updates?

Deisegodeo

Really looking forward to seeing the minors tonight, missed the game in Ennis so i havent seen this group yet this year. Won the Tony Forristal as u14's so they have been seen coming, clearly no guarantee of success but always good to see young lads taste success at underage. I think the team looks stronger now, Sutton and Roche are really good hurlers and will hopefully add a lot to the defence. Shane Bennet is a good addition to the forwards as well. I'm surprised to see Ryan of DLS dropped, saw him in club action a good bit last year and thought he would be dominating minor this year. Anyway, best of luck to all involved and hopefully the young lads will make another Munster Final.

Cake Man

gavwaldo wrote: »

is the game on wlr tonight or the ususal updates?

Can anyone confirm this?

Deise_abu

Cake Man wrote: »

Can anyone confirm this?

From WLR website

This evening's game throws-in at 7-30 and Tomas McCarthy will have regular updates throughout the evening here on WLRfm.

Hamstrings59

Why is this game on in feather field? Assume it's for the floodlights incase of extra time

blueflame

In fairness, the vast majority of the panel are from mid to west county so less travel involved for them but from what I have heard it is on in Fraher Field because that was the managements preference.

For whatever reason, it is fine by me even though Walsh Park would be far and away my preferred venue. It is the management who will live or die by their decision. They have put in huge effort and are right to have their say. Too many times the County Board get involved for one reason or another and insist upon venues for less logical reasons.

Hope it stays fine for much of night because i expect a big crowd and Fraher Field doesn't exactly provide a lot of cover.

Here's hoping for a hard fought and well deserved victory for our lads tonight, get along and give 'em the support they and the management deserve. Remember this side has not just been together this year. Derek Lyons & Co have been working really hard since before these guys won Tony Forristal and they have had such bad luck with injury. What an addition a fit Jack McCarthy would be to this panel

KevIRL

Decent crowd building in dungarvan. Dark evening compared to lately though, them lights will be in use I'd stay

KevIRL

2-8 to 2-2 at ht. Should be a lot more tho. Clare with breeze in second half

Hamstrings59

blueflame wrote: »

In fairness, the vast majority of the panel are from mid to west county so less travel involved for them but from what I have heard it is on in Fraher Field because that was the managements preference.

For whatever reason, it is fine by me even though Walsh Park would be far and away my preferred venue. It is the management who will live or die by their decision. They have put in huge effort and are right to have their say. Too many times the County Board get involved for one reason or another and insist upon venues for less logical reasons.

Hope it stays fine for much of night because i expect a big crowd and Fraher Field doesn't exactly provide a lot of cover.

Here's hoping for a hard fought and well deserved victory for our lads tonight, get along and give 'em the support they and the management deserve. Remember this side has not just been together this year. Derek Lyons & Co have been working really hard since before these guys won Tony Forristal and they have had such bad luck with injury. What an addition a fit Jack McCarthy would be to this panel

What club is Jack McCarthy and is he injured?
Hope they win tonight and get revenge on limerick for last year, assuming limerick beat cork that is, limerick have a serious team, cosgrave, two lynches, Barry Nash to name a few

dzilla

Fair play for puttin the fixture in fraher field. The light isnt great and the floodlights could be needed with the poor visibility

Cake Man

Brilliant well done lads! 2-13 to 2-12 ft. Another munster final and hurling into the summer to look forward to.

Mountainlad

Happy with the win, sounds like a very poor second half though!

3ships

1-6 to 0-0 up after 8 mins

for the next 40 mins were outscored 2-10 to 1-2

dug in and outscored Clare 0-5 to 0-2 from the 48 min

Some Character

spacetrap

3ships wrote: »

1-6 to 0-0 up after 8 mins

for the next 40 mins were outscored 2-10 to 1-2

dug in and outscored Clare 0-5 to 0-2 from the 48 min

Some Character

Character had little to do with it. Clare had a man sent off early in second half and tired towards the end

TheScoringGoal

Not that unusual in minor for teams to go through good phases and bad phases.

3ships

spacetrap wrote: »

Character had little to do with it. Clare had a man sent off early in second half and tired towards the end

I understand that but still a feature of Waterford Minor teams the last few years to get over the line in tight games. Waterford already beat Clare in the last ten minutes in Ennis 15 v 15 and did the business with 14 men against Kilkenny last year.

gavwaldo

i'm nearly blinded from them only putting on the lights in the last 5 min. Must have been really hard for the players to see.

hurler on de ditch

spacetrap wrote: »

Character had little to do with it. Clare had a man sent off early in second half and tired towards the end

that's. Character,sounds very bitter to me

Tramore84

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

that's. Character,sounds very bitter to me

Well done to the minors. Dug it out when they had to. Great sign.