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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1
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I read a quote from an all Ireland winner not so long ago, can't for the life of me remember his name, he said there is an all Ireland winning football team in every county in Ireland - the coaching/resources isn't there to deliver. We're all well versed on the goings on with the footballers & how they've been treated the last few years compared to the hurlers. It makes you wonder about what if the likes of Brick, Shane Walsh & Moran were available. If the footballers were prepared properly & had the best players available how would they fare? Look at Wexford the last 6 or 7 years. In the couple of years before their breakthrough they were in a similar place to where Waterford are now. Shipping hidings & getting beaten off the likes of Carlow. Jason Ryan came in & took over, the county board backed him & the players bought in to what he was trying to achieve. He convinced hurlers who were regularly getting to Croke Park with the hurlers to come on board with his panel & soldier with the footballers. Whatever he did he did it right & he got 4 or 5 hurlers, who were even better footballers, to change codes.
If the Waterford county board & supporters could somehow get serious with the footballers it would become evident that the players are there but the resources/coaching/interest isn't. We have some fabulous footballers in Waterford & it's a shame their talents aren't appreciated.0 -
Having had over 24 hours to reflect on Saturday's display, before airing my views, I can now say that my frustration has gotten worse rather than better.
Our tactic of a 2 man full forward line is a joke , it struggled against a poor Laois side, given that amount of freedom to a Cork, Tipp, Clare or Killkenny full back line not alone would we not have scored but they would have acted as a launch pad for destruction of us.
How many times:
- did we see the full back just knock down the ball or push over the full forward and the corner backs just picked up loose ball
- did players take on long distance points, not because they were confident but because they had no choice
- did we just hit the ball into space with no one but a Laois back in sight
- did we try to play stupid needless short passes trying to work the ball out of defence and get caught. I think i counted 5 scores coming for this type of play.
These are high risk, needless and badly flawed tactics. Our management spent the week building up Laois to be something special and then played like a team who were nervous out. Do any of us realistically believe any of the other top teams would do that?
Forget about agendas, I for one had great hope with Derek McGrath's appointment but to be honest if we don't change our tactics or game plan soon, another savage beating is only around the corner, and this is not about we not having players, this is about stupid tactics. I am following Waterford hurling for a long long time now, way before the successful years. Last Saturday night i met and spoke with many long term followers who know their hurling and the frustration and anger was plain to see. It was evident on the bank where I was standing and I believe it was just as evident in the stand. To a man, i saw nothing but anger and frustration with no one supporting the tactics employed
As regards this treatment of Ryan Donnelly, I think it was disgraceful. He played the lad for 20 minutes, in a roving role or a two man full forward line, and he was starved of any kind of ball. He was faring no worse than the majority at that stage and we took him off. Maybe i am over-reacting but i cannot help but feel that it was a case of "well there ye are I gave him a chance because ye were all shouting for it and it didn't work so there you go" . I hope I am wrong.
One cannot but feel that this is another case of a manager being too stubborn to admit his plans are a mess and failing to heed the obvious.
I will leave it on this - as i have said previously i am following Waterford a very long time, going well back to the days of when we won one championship match about once every three / four years and were considered the whipping boys for most of the big teams. We have spent the last 16 years dispelling that notion and have dared to stand toe to toe with the best in the country over that period. Last Friday night our county paid tribute not only to Ken but to many of the others who have restored the pride belief in ourselves and the respect of other counties. At minor level we are competing in out fifth Munster Final in six years, we are no longer the whipping boys at any grade.
If we do not change our tactics and belief in the fact that our hurlers are good enough to stand to to toe with every other county, we are about to waste all that hard work.
If we cannot believe it, how the hell are we going to get others to???????????????0 -
chinguetti wrote: »Folks, if ever Carlow was due a win it was today after their last game. They were at home and had nothing to lose and no one didn't give them a hope. Rainbow said at least 10 lads didn't want to join the panel so they have the basis of a panel similar to Waterford's so they was never going to be much between them today.
I'm normally very slow to criticise the footballers, as there is very little thanks involved for the effort they put in, and generally are very committed.
However, at this point I have to question their mental strength. Do they know how to win games, or have they become accustomed to losing? This is something which can happen to teams, when they get stuck in a rut.
That game was there for the taking yesterday. They had a moral victory against Galway last year before losing by a point, the year before that they had the opportunity to beat Wicklow up in Aughrim before blowing it.
As many have pointed out, there are many excellent footballers in the county who aren't togging out. Some of those have focused on hurling, others are floating around but not committing for whatever reason. This needs to be addressed.0 -
Is it just me or is the Leinster hurling championship all done close together seeing as KK and Galway have 3 weekend games in a row?
Munster Hurling seems more spread out.0 -
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I read a quote from an all Ireland winner not so long ago, can't for the life of me remember his name, he said there is an all Ireland winning football team in every county in Ireland - the coaching/resources isn't there to deliver. We're all well versed on the goings on with the footballers & how they've been treated the last few years compared to the hurlers. It makes you wonder about what if the likes of Brick, Shane Walsh & Moran were available. If the footballers were prepared properly & had the best players available how would they fare? Look at Wexford the last 6 or 7 years. In the couple of years before their breakthrough they were in a similar place to where Waterford are now. Shipping hidings & getting beaten off the likes of Carlow. Jason Ryan came in & took over, the county board backed him & the players bought in to what he was trying to achieve. He convinced hurlers who were regularly getting to Croke Park with the hurlers to come on board with his panel & soldier with the footballers. Whatever he did he did it right & he got 4 or 5 hurlers, who were even better footballers, to change codes.
If the Waterford county board & supporters could somehow get serious with the footballers it would become evident that the players are there but the resources/coaching/interest isn't. We have some fabulous footballers in Waterford & it's a shame their talents aren't appreciated.
I think it was Pat Spillane came out with that statement. While I don't agree with All Ireland achievement Paidi O Se showed with Westmeath what can be done. We also saw Fermangh get to an All Ireland semi via the backdoor so there is a high level which can be reached even with small counties once the right approach is in place0 -
The replay between Galway and kk has made it more pronounced but yep you are right
Cork and Limerick are getting a good rest til the Munster Final.
In the qualifiers for round 2 we have Waterford, Offaly, and the rest should be Clare who should beat Wexford handy enough, Tipp could take Galway but you never know.
Am I missing anyone?0 -
[QUOoverlueflame;91059868]Having had over 24 hours to reflect on Saturday's display, before airing my views, I can now say that my frustration has gotten worse rather than better.
Our tactic of a 2 man full forward line is a joke , it struggled against a poor Laois side, given that amount of freedom to a Cork, Tipp, Clare or Killkenny full back line not alone would we not have scored but they would have acted as a launch pad for destruction of us.
How many times:
- did we see the full back just knock down the ball or push over the full forward and the corner backs just picked up loose ball
- did players take on long distance points, not because they were confident but because they had no choice
- did we just hit the ball into space with no one but a Laois back in sight
- did we try to play stupid needless short passes trying to work the ball out of defence and get caught. I think i counted 5 scores coming for this type of play.
These are high risk, needless and badly flawed tactics. Our management spent the week building up Laois to be something special and then played like a team who were nervous out. Do any of us realistically believe any of the other top teams would do that?
Forget about agendas, I for one had great hope with Derek McGrath's appointment but to be honest if we don't change our tactics or game plan soon, another savage beating is only around the corner, and this is not about we not having players, this is about stupid tactics. I am following Waterford hurling for a long long time now, way before the successful years. Last Saturday night i met and spoke with many long term followers who know their hurling and the frustration and anger was plain to see. It was evident on the bank where I was standing and I believe it was just as evident in the stand. To a man, i saw nothing but anger and frustration with no one supporting the tactics employed
As regards this treatment of Ryan Donnelly, I think it was disgraceful. He played the lad for 20 minutes, in a roving role or a two man full forward line, and he was starved of any kind of ball. He was faring no worse than the majority at that stage and we took him off. Maybe i am over-reacting but i cannot help but feel that it was a case of "well there ye are I gave him a chance because ye were all shouting for it and it didn't work so there you go" . I hope I am wrong.
One cannot but feel that this is another case of a manager being too stubborn to admit his plans are a mess and failing to heed the obvious.
I will leave it on this - as i have said previously i am following Waterford a very long time, going well back to the days of when we won one championship match about once every three / four years and were considered the whipping boys for most of the big teams. We have spent the last 16 years dispelling that notion and have dared to stand toe to toe with the best in the country over that period. Last Friday night our county paid tribute not only to Ken but to many of the others who have restored the pride belief in ourselves and the respect of other counties. At minor level we are competing in out fifth Munster Final in six years, we are no longer the whipping boys at any grade.
If we do not change our tactics and belief in the fact that our hurlers are good enough to stand to to toe with every other county, we are about to waste all that hard work.
If we cannot believe it, how the hell are we going to get others to???????????????[/QUOTE]
+1 to everything in this post..
I also remember when we went to championship matches
in the hope of catching out a team every 3 to 4 years..
That all changed from '98 on when we won 4 Munster and 1 National
League and were very unlucky not to have won at least One All
Ireland.
The dogs of the road know these tactics are not going
to work.. Let's get back to basics and start hurling
the way we can.0 -
I assumed that was the reason for bringing on Prendergast but was there even one ball sent in to him around the box?A big point of dissension here was the substitution of Ryan Donnelly, I do agree that it was harsh on the chap, he had done little wrong, but the way I read it was management thinking we needed a big man in around the box.0 -
I read a quote from an all Ireland winner not so long ago, can't for the life of me remember his name, he said there is an all Ireland winning football team in every county in Ireland - the coaching/resources isn't there to deliver. We're all well versed on the goings on with the footballers & how they've been treated the last few years compared to the hurlers. It makes you wonder about what if the likes of Brick, Shane Walsh & Moran were available. If the footballers were prepared properly & had the best players available how would they fare? Look at Wexford the last 6 or 7 years. In the couple of years before their breakthrough they were in a similar place to where Waterford are now. Shipping hidings & getting beaten off the likes of Carlow. Jason Ryan came in & took over, the county board backed him & the players bought in to what he was trying to achieve. He convinced hurlers who were regularly getting to Croke Park with the hurlers to come on board with his panel & soldier with the footballers. Whatever he did he did it right & he got 4 or 5 hurlers, who were even better footballers, to change codes.
If the Waterford county board & supporters could somehow get serious with the footballers it would become evident that the players are there but the resources/coaching/interest isn't. We have some fabulous footballers in Waterford & it's a shame their talents aren't appreciated.
I do not want to get into a debate regarding Football / Hurling but looking at all the comments made we just do not have the playing population to compete on both levels at a top grade. Taking the likes of Moran, Brick and Shane Walsh and adding them to the football panel while it might make us more competitive. it will not win us a Munster title or make us competitive at the top level of teams. The best we would hope for is a "scalp" of a relatively low lying team, before ourselves getting scalped. By focusing on hurling we won 4 Munster titles and a national league at senior level, a minor Munster and a Minor All Ireland and have a realistic chance of winning something more over the coming years.
Kerry are not competitive at Hurling and KK do not play football. Wexford hurlers suffered badly when they concentrated on football as did Limerick. The only counties to compete successfully on two fronts (set aside the odd upset by Limerick or Clare) are Dublin, Cork and Galway in the past.
A lot of money is put in to football in this county, and indeed the County Board officials in the majority are football orientated as are many of the Development Officials. The amount of money shown in end of year accounts tends to reflect distance traveled in the championship and given our footballers failure over the last number of years to progress over two games the expense of training etc is bound to be less. Waterford is predominately a hurling county and while i have every respect for the footballers, trying to strip the hurling team of players just to bolster the football ranks is not a runner. Players should be left to concentrate on whatever code they choose.0 -
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Psychedelic wrote: »I assumed that was the reason for bringing on Prendergast but was there even one ball sent in to him around the box?
If we needed a big man around the box because he was going to outnumbered at least 2 if not 3 to 1 because of our stupid tactics. Am getting angrier with every discussion i have and comment I read.0 -
If we needed a big man around the box because he was going to outnumbered at least 2 if not 3 to 1 because of our stupid tactics. Am getting angrier with every discussion i have and comment I read.
Couldn't agree more with this post and your previous ones. I,like you are so disillusioned at the moment with the tactics and McGrath's stubbornness with his favourties that its hard to see a future in it. Hope I'm proven wrong by the way!0 -
If we needed a big man around the box because he was going to outnumbered at least 2 if not 3 to 1 because of our stupid tactics. Am getting angrier with every discussion i have and comment I read.
I'm led to believe that Laois' sweeper Dwane Palmer hit a lot of uncontested ball in their game against Galway.
I couldn't make it to the match on Saturday, but did he chance to do the same again against Waterford?0 -
I'm led to believe that Laois' sweeper Dwane Palmer hit a lot of uncontested ball in their game against Galway.
I couldn't make it to the match on Saturday, but did he chance to do the same again against Waterford?
Dunford was taken out of the FF to mark him. The Laois game plan broke down cause we forced them to hit long which T de B as the spare man in the Waterford defence cleaned up superbly.
Derek McGraths take on it:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/mcgrath-we-got-the-perfect-response-from-our-top-players-273716.html0 -
I understand that taking off Donnelly was bad and that if he went to DLS school or played for DLS he would have got more of a chance. This was still the first knock out game of the year and the pressure was well and truely on. A defeat here would not have been acceptable and a 10 point win is a much healthier outcome than predicted before the game. I personnelly thought it'd be 5/6 points win which is hardly confident.
Laois have been going well this year and indeed it was well highlighted on this thread as much as anywhere that that is the case. The Laois system has given them a chance against better teams ie Clare and Galway but it is also negative and leads them to struggle badly against teams like London and Antrim. Maybe its because we are so bad we won so handy!!
There is a lot more positives than negatives to be taken out of the game.
-T de B played the spare man role with assuredness, has all the skill and speed and reading of the game to perform this role if we need it in the future.
-Paudi Prendergast has eventually got his chance and surely can't be dropped now
-Lawlor FB = grand, job done, 17 goals conceded in 17 Championship games with him, 17 goals conceded in 6 league games without him
-Dara Fives is back, enough said
-Moran turned up
-Shane Fives is too dynamic for FB and a run further out the field has given us more going forward
-Brick is far from finished
It seems all our best players are 1-8 but they gave an easier job to do than the forwards and just as much defending to do.
-Shane Walsh and Jake Dillon have arrived at the Championship after fitness issues. Please play Walsh at 14
-Pauric Mahony can lead the team from 11 and despite a few frees from distance going astray is hitting the ball as well as anybody
-Dunford is a revelation, speed and skill and strenght and workrate, we were crying out for this guy. This board couldn't even find a place for him in the U-21 team, glad Derek McGrath saw something different. His run pass for Shane Walsh showed bravery and vision that we didn't see from BOS and shows he is a step up. On the other side if BOS was involved in the late challenge on Dunford after he gave the pass, he'd be probably be suspended for 6 months.
-Austin Gleeson huge talent but only 18 still despite erratic wides and choice of pass looks capable of racking up a big score, the type of forward we had in the team 10 years ago. Liable to do anything
There is positives, we are not in transition we have the players, we need 2 or 3 forward options. Whether it too late for Maurice, Barron, Barry and BOH to have an impact I don't know. Martin O Neill's suprise introduction suggests those 4 might still get game time.
I wouldn't be a fan of every thing Derek McGrath does (ie BOS at ff) but there has to be scope for tactics and innovation you gotta bring more to the party than 15 v 15 traditional Waterford off the cuff stuff. Teams will not allow Brick to dominate from CB anymore so where is the platform for the traditional game.
What do people think of the pop passes for the runners coming off the shoulder (ie Moran charging thru like Tommy Bowe) and another tactic borrowed from rugby, the ball over the half back line where Jake Dillon profitted from running into space. Interesting I thought gave us more goal opportunites than I've seen all year(opposition noted by the way).
A few long balls into Seamus that Seamus would normally win shouldn't cause people to lose hope, the Laois defender played him better than most from more vaunted counties. Likewise the Laois mini revival had more to do with a sudden breeze that arrived half way thru the second half than anything else. I understand a couple of handy frees gave us back the impetus but thats all you need when you have done all the hurling and worked up a decent lead.
I am going on but I've had enought of the anti Derek McGrath debate even if I'm not his biggest fan, just wanted to add a counterpoint. The year was going the way it was always going to go, toward a big qualifier clash in July with players getting fitter and coming back from injury we can upset the odds0 -
Reasonable points to be considered but i do not buy into taking Dunford out to mark their sweeper - as has been highlighted he is one of our biggest threats on goal with pace and bravery so you do not pull him out to do a marking job.
de Burca, hit a lot of ball but to where, at time it was like hitting the ball off a wall - it was just coming straight back and that was not deBurca's fault. There were no options available.
Shane Walsh - caused problems at full forward with limited support - but we moved him yet again out the field.
Pop passes in our defence are grand when the release players - but we did it so many times when there was no need to it was crazy, we took unnecessary chances which better teams will ruthlessly expose.
He did not give Donnelly a proper chance and i don't care what school he did or did;t go to or what part of the county he is from.
The limited successes he had, and I will certainly give his due on Dunford, do not make up for the serious short comings in his game plan, His focus is too negative and there are better ways of dealing with a sweeper system than emptying your full forward line.0 -
Deise Doodler wrote: »
Also why Ryan Donnelly got whipped off after 20 min,Ah lads will ye stop.....
Anyone else think the taking off of Donnelly after 20 mins was shocking form? .As regards this treatment of Ryan Donnelly, I think it was disgraceful. He played the lad for 20 minutes,
Lads, can we please put the 'Donnelly was taken off after 20 minutes' thing away. He was subbed in the 31st minute. Its still harsh on him and very early in the game, but a significant difference0 -
Apologies - 30 minutes - I agree a significant difference, but still to early. T0
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I wouldn't be a fan of every thing Derek McGrath does (ie BOS at ff) but there has to be scope for tactics and innovation you gotta bring more to the party than 15 v 15 traditional Waterford off the cuff stuff. Teams will not allow Brick to dominate from CB anymore so where is the platform for the traditional game.
Nothing wrong with tactics , but as a manager you have to be able to adapt and change your plan if need be, we seem to only have one game plan, no matter who we play or how they are playing, As for the pop passes quality teams have been doing this for years and has little to do with being borrowed from rugby .
Yes there are positives and I do believe we have the players but it will all come to nothing if management are unable to react off the cuff,0 -
Lads, can we please put the 'Donnelly was taken off after 20 minutes' thing away. He was subbed in the 31st minute. Its still harsh on him and very early in the game, but a significant difference
31 mins even more baffling to be honest. no need to take someone off so close to half time unles hes either injured or being completely slaughtered and was neither in this instance as far as I could see.
On a side note I think John Mullane made an interesting point in his article yesterday. He basically said the system is what it is and theres no point in thinking its going to suddenly change at this stage of the season so waterford fans just need to get behind the team now.
Hes probably right but I think hes kind of let the cat out of the bag there. Its obvious he will be talking to derek regularly given the family connection and I think it was his way of saying to us stop wasting yere time giving out becuase its not going to change.0 -
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From the Waterford GAA Facebook page, and I believe the Waterford GAA website:
"Minor Hurlers acknowledge "The Sixteenth Man"
The Waterford Minor Hurling Squad would like to
say a sincere thank you to all of the people that
took the time to travel to Fraher Field last
Wednesday night to shout us on against Clare
in the Munster Minor Hurling Semi-Final.
We are in no doubt about the fact that the massive turnout, in excess of 3,500 including juveniles, and in the main made up of Waterford supporters, impacted enormously on the end result.
The call, put out by the Management team the week leading into the game was truly answered and a very vocal crowd could be heard miles away, but most importantly on the field of play.
Bualadh bos go léir agus go raibh míle maith agat.
Waterford Minor Hurling Management & Players."0 -
31 mins even more baffling to be honest. no need to take someone off so close to half time unles hes either injured or being completely slaughtered and was neither in this instance as far as I could see.
On a side note I think John Mullane made an interesting point in his article yesterday. He basically said the system is what it is and theres no point in thinking its going to suddenly change at this stage of the season so waterford fans just need to get behind the team now.
Hes probably right but I think hes kind of let the cat out of the bag there. Its obvious he will be talking to derek regularly given the family connection and I think it was his way of saying to us stop wasting yere time giving out becuase its not going to change.
Its not going to change, if it was going to we'd have seen evidence of at least some kind of tactical change when we were well ahead vs Laois, but the same auld negative approach persevered. We need to either suddenly spark into life and this system turn oit to be a master plan ir start lining up someone else for next year if its more of the same for the rest of our championship.0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »From the Waterford GAA Facebook page, and I believe the Waterford GAA website:
"Minor Hurlers acknowledge "The Sixteenth Man"
The Waterford Minor Hurling Squad would like to
say a sincere thank you to all of the people that
took the time to travel to Fraher Field last
Wednesday night to shout us on against Clare
in the Munster Minor Hurling Semi-Final.
We are in no doubt about the fact that the massive turnout, in excess of 3,500 including juveniles, and in the main made up of Waterford supporters, impacted enormously on the end result.
The call, put out by the Management team the week leading into the game was truly answered and a very vocal crowd could be heard miles away, but most importantly on the field of play.
Bualadh bos go léir agus go raibh míle maith agat.
Waterford Minor Hurling Management & Players."
Fair dues. I doubt there'll be too may tickets floatin about for the final though? A reduced capacity Pairc Ui Caoimh.... ridiculous decision to play the Munster final there0 -
True, and we could have played it in a much bigger stadium in Waterford if Cork hadn't hammered Waterford in the first round.0
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Mountainlad wrote: »Or if you were being anyway reasonable. But as Donal Og once said "We're Cork"
Giving up home advantage for a Munster hurling final is being 'reasonable'...?
Absolutely no county would give up home advantage game for a provincial final - no one, and you are taking the piss if you say otherwise.0 -
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Giving up home advantage for a Munster hurling final is being 'reasonable'...?
Absolutely no county would give up home advantage game for a provincial final - no one, and you are taking the piss if you say otherwise.
Absolutely. Or like offering the opposition home advantage in return for a little sweetener. Oh wait...0 -
Giving up home advantage for a Munster hurling final is being 'reasonable'...?
Absolutely no county would give up home advantage game for a provincial final - no one, and you are taking the piss if you say otherwise.
If you were being reasonable you would see why it should not be held in Pairc Ui Caoimh, rather than when someone points it out have some nonsense jibe.0 -
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Mountainlad wrote: »If you were being reasonable you would see why it should not be held in Pairc Ui Caoimh, rather than when someone points it out have some nonsense jibe.
Aye, a 'reasonable' person would ask why we're not allowed stage Munster first round games at our crappy county ground, even when the attendance at one of the big grounds is not likely to exceed the capacity of our crappy county ground, yet Cork get to stage a Munster final in their crappy county ground, a ground so self-evidently crappy that they're demolishing it at the final whistle, despite not even being able to satisfy the demands for tickets for its last hurrah.0
This discussion has been closed.
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