Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

Mountainlad

The thing that is most concerning is the way possession is treated almost as good as a score in some quarters. The best teams I've seen (and the ones that usually win) are those that can score points/goals with the least amounts of effort i.e. there moves involve very few passes.

I would describe what we're doing as laboured, too many passes and the wrong option often being taken. At times against Cork we hit passes from positions where inter county hurlers should be able to score points from, and then tried to force it when the game started to slip away. Last Saturday, as was said, we were taking on shots that you shouldn't be hitting too often on account of a lot of ball being played into the forwards only to come straight back out.

We had possession, but how much of it in the scoring zone? And that's where it actually matters. I know we still had serious issues with wides, but it seemed to me that we played much better last year when the players had orthodox roles. The fact that we have no goal threat I think boils down to poor tactics. You need to create space inside to get the goal chance, but you don't do that by dropping everyone deep. Players have to be constantly moving.

If the ball is going into Shane Walsh or Prender at full forward, you want your corner forwards to be as close as possible to him by the time the ball lands, and ideally, running towards goal. In fact, it doesn't necessarily have to be your full forward line. Look at Reid's first goal, the goal Mark Kelly setup for Fennelly and Larkin's goal the first day. The ball breaks, they are onto it driving through and incredibly difficult to stop. Kilkenny are the example for scoring goals, but how many times in the match do they try to do that? I would say pretty much every ball is sent into the forward line with the aim of breaking it down towards goal and the forwards coming in at pace. And most of the time, it doesn't actually work. But when it does, often a few times per game, they score goals.

Contrast that to Waterford, and when either Brian O'Sullivan or Shane Walsh have been in full forward they seem to have to contest the high ball, win it, and take the defense on themselves. Again, I don't doubt McGrath is detailed in his approach but I think his mindset is wrong. With his pace, Dunford is undoubtedly one of the most dangerous forwards Waterford have at the moment. Putting him in to try and stop a sweeper from hitting ball seems daft to me. Jake Dillon doesn't have that pace, nor does Mahony and while Gleeson has pace like Moran, he wouldn't be electric over 5 yards like someone with a lower centre of gravity would be.

The same thing happened in the league against Kilkenny when Jamie Barron was put on Fennelly (which was a mismatch if ever I saw one). He played everywhere that day bar in goal, the full back line and most importantly the full forward line where he should have been playing. Jake Dillon has been played centre forward a few times as well which is crazy given his worst performances for Waterford were at centre forward in the minor in 2011. He was so ineffective there that someone involved with that team actually told me they don't even rate him particularly highly. Imagine that. He's more than proven himself that he is a very good hurler since, but clearly not in that position.

Too many mistakes for a man that appears to be astute and knowledgeable. I don't fault his efforts, nor am I writing him off. But I have said that championship is where he'll be judged, no matter how bad the league was. I think progress this year means a win or at least a performance that is capable of a win that just doesn't get the required luck against one of Tipp/Galway/Clare/Wexford if we draw them next round or else winning an all ireland quarter final because progression one round further than last year on account of meeting Offaly and then not pushing the provincial loser ot the pin of their collar is not progress on what was achieved last year.

Hamstrings59

That my sion and bgunner team of that era definitely under achieved but they came up against some serious sides in Munster around that time, Clare had serious club teams, barefield, sixmilebridge, Wolfe tones, clarecastle to name a few, you had toomevara in tipp, black rock in cork, club teams and Munster cship a lot stronger back then than now and give dues to dunloy they had a great side back then and took a great birr team to an all Ireland club final replay

Hamstrings59

Davy fittz was lambasted his first year or two by the Clare public, now he is a messiah down there, there are fine lines between the two. Just get behind the manager, show support to him and players, he's there for the foreseeable future so get behind him and put the trust that the Waterford management know more about things than what any of the rest of us do.

TheScoringGoal

Hamstrings59 wrote: »

Davy fittz was lambasted his first year or two by the Clare public, now he is a messiah down there

If you keep your ear to the ground in Clare you'll find out very quickly that Davy is not seen as a messiah. Big rumours of conflict in the camp.

robopaddy

TheScoringGoal wrote: »

If you keep your ear to the ground in Clare you'll find out very quickly that Davy is not seen as a messiah. Big rumours of conflict in the camp.

Tis not all mi wadi and biscuits so....

Professey Chin

Hamstrings59 wrote: »

Davy fittz was lambasted his first year or two by the Clare public, now he is a messiah down there, there are fine lines between the two. Just get behind the manager, show support to him and players, he's there for the foreseeable future so get behind him and put the trust that the Waterford management know more about things than what any of the rest of us do.

Fancy actually giving valid reasons to put our faith behind what we're seeing or are you gonna keep towing the line like youre a political party member?
Theres been plenty of detailed and excellent posts showing reasons why people are worried in the style of play, bizarre tactics, shooting failures, failure to adapt etc we've been seeing and everytime you pop up lambasting them, saying get behind the manager and comparing to situations that simply dont apply to us but I've yet to see one actual constructive post from you.

Alf Tupper

TheScoringGoal wrote: »

If you keep your ear to the ground in Clare you'll find out very quickly that Davy is not seen as a messiah. Big rumours of conflict in the camp.

+ 1

tomwaterford

Hamstrings59 wrote: »

Davy fittz was lambasted his first year or two by the Clare public, now he is a messiah down there, there are fine lines between the two. Just get behind the manager, show support to him and players, he's there for the foreseeable future so get behind him and put the trust that the Waterford management know more about things than what any of the rest of us do.

from talking to people in clare...he is still viewed with suspicion (and many would like to see him gone)...gets the respect he deserves for winning an all Ireland with a very young team

but there is a feeling his over reliance on tactics nearly cost them the first day vs cork(which they should have won handy imo)
as an aside that clare team will surly win another 2/3 all Irelands over the next 6-7 years as there is not 1 bad hurler in the team....if Waterford had that honan he would be a gaurenteed starter

Dickys Back Garden

Deise_abu wrote: »

I would accept your viewpoint on Greener and the Dunloy defeat would be a point of reference for sure but the club championship at the time was much more competitive than it is now, the Toom, Newtown, Adare and Sixmilebridge teams of that era would win the current Munster championship without much bother at present

I am not sure how it could be considered a backwards step, yes Derek was appointed based on the fact he is a young and dynamic (questionable) but that doesn't for a minute suggest that he should not seek an external opinion and I can't see how that could be in anyway be perceived as a backwards step. Given the close relationship Davy has with Cyril Farrell I would be surprised if in his early days he did not seek out his advise, it is common knowledge he did when manager of LIT. If you take Greeners experience into account I would see it as a positive, Derek can listen to his opinion and take it or leave it, without Derek going to another member of his generation (35 - 45) with similar management experience I don't see a lot of candidates within the county to take on this role.

Truth be told if Greener was from any other club in the county I suspect he would have been given a shot at managing the senior team.

Just wondering why you think being from this club might have impinged on him getting a shot at the county team?

Hamstrings59

To be fair I think you can draw some parallels between Clare and Waterford...
I remember meeting Liam sheedy about 3 years ago, when I told him I was from Waterford all he could do was rave about McGrath, it's a learning curve but remember willie maher and frank Flannery are there also who are young and inexperienced at this level but are v astute hurling men

3ships

Hamstrings59 wrote: »

To be fair I think you can draw some parallels between Clare and Waterford...
I remember meeting Liam sheedy about 3 years ago, when I told him I was from Waterford all he could do was rave about McGrath, it's a learning curve but remember willie maher and frank Flannery are there also who are young and inexperienced at this level but are v astute hurling men

I agree with you about Clare but its true they are not happy with Davy again..just like Cork weren't happy with JBM a couple of weeks ago and one of Cunningham or O Shea will have to resign tommorrow.. etc etc

conditioned games

Hamstrings59 wrote: »

To be fair I think you can draw some parallels between Clare and Waterford...
I remember meeting Liam sheedy about 3 years ago, when I told him I was from Waterford all he could do was rave about McGrath, it's a learning curve but remember willie maher and frank Flannery are there also who are young and inexperienced at this level but are v astute hurling men

How did Sheedy know McGrath? When he was given the job last year most Waterford people never heard of him. His only managerial experience was coaching DLS for 2 years after which they were in a worse place.

Differences between Clare and Waterford are both are producing good young players for the last 6/7 years, other than that there is little in common now. When Davy realised he was holding them back in the middle of his second year he allowed them play the way Paul Kinnerk was training them to play. I dont see any alternative in the waterford set up that Mcgrath can change to so he'll continue to hold them back unless he can overcome his stubbornness.

olpaddymac

Ridiculous Post. He won two harty cup medals with De La Salle College before he got the De La Salle job. I have some experience playing under him with schools and for me I have never met a more knowledgeable hurling man. Some of his tactics this year have been questionable but if you ask anyone that has played for him, the feedback will be positive. I also think you know nothing of what went on in De La Salle as anyone will tell you that he was the driving influence even when Michael Ryan was there.

conditioned games

olpaddymac wrote: »

Ridiculous Post. He won two harty cup medals with De La Salle College before he got the De La Salle job. I have some experience playing under him with schools and for me I have never met a more knowledgeable hurling man. Some of his tactics this year have been questionable but if you ask anyone that has played for him, the feedback will be positive. I also think you know nothing of what went on in De La Salle as anyone will tell you that he was the driving influence even when Michael Ryan was there.

I'm talking about adult teams, not schools hurling. Where have DLS college been since then as he is still a teacher there. When he got his chance to be manager of DLS senior club team why did they go backwards during his 2 years. Can you list out some good points that he has.

Deise_abu

Dickys Back Garden wrote: »

Just wondering why you think being from this club might have impinged on him getting a shot at the county team?

I suppose unlike in other counties if you are a member of a successful club in Waterford it is difficult to be appointed manager of the senior county team.

If you take KK, last two managers James Stephens and Ballyhale. In cork of the last 8 managers 4 were from the Barrs, 2 from Sars and 1 from Blackrock

I am not sure when we last had a manager from Mount Sion or Ballygunner at senior level.

I am not trying to say there is an anti 1 club bias but it does strike me that the more successful you are in Waterford the least likely you are to be given the job.

De La Salle, Fourmilewater and Abbeyside the last 3 managers from within the county

hardybuck

I think based on some of the utter nonsense posted here consistently on either side of the McGrath and Ryan camps over the past couple of years, we possibly shouldn't consider another internal candidate for a while.

Waterford has consistently shown an inability or an unwillingness to pull together on many issues whether it be sport, politics - whatever.

Deise_abu

hardybuck wrote: »

I think based on some of the utter nonsense posted here consistently on either side of the McGrath and Ryan camps over the past couple of years, we possibly shouldn't consider another internal candidate for a while.

Waterford has consistently shown an inability or an unwillingness to pull together on many issues whether it be sport, politics - whatever.

You are right but there within is the true problem why is it we expect the players to pull together and leave there clubs colours outside the door but yet supporters and officials do there level best to do the opposite

hardybuck

Deise_abu wrote: »

You are right but there within is the true problem why is it we expect the players to pull together and leave there clubs colours outside the door but yet supporters and officials do there level best to do the opposite

Well, even in terms of the players pulling together, you see a lot of the rows which break out at club level involving county players fighting each other.

A couple of the Lismore v Ballygunner and DLS v Ballygunner games immediately spring to mind over the years.

KevIRL

Great piece by Donal Og Cusack about last weeks Ken McGrath match

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/donal-og-cusack/at-home-on-hurlings-holy-ground-274299.html

olpaddymac

conditioned games wrote: »

I'm talking about adult teams, not schools hurling. Where have DLS college been since then as he is still a teacher there. When he got his chance to be manager of DLS senior club team why did they go backwards during his 2 years. Can you list out some good points that he has.

Id say you have no clue about Hurling full stop. That schools hurling you talk of is one of the hardest competitions to win. De La Salle have gone back because some of their marquee names have got older and slower. Couldn't agree more with the poster that said of all places Waterford is not ready for an internal candidate.

culbaire

Psychedelic wrote: »

http://www.waterford-news.ie/2014/07/01/meticulous-mcgrath-counteracts-laois-sweeper-system/

What a heading!! One would think we hammered Kilkenny or Tipperary!
One of the biggest problems in Waterford is that the media generally fails to critically analyse team performances. In contrast the media in Kilkenny is never slow to criticise players or management. Lets be blunt: The display last Saturday night was appallingly bad. Its time to call it as it is. One would think that it was a very poor intermediate club hurling match.

Mountainlad

culbaire wrote: »

What a heading!! One would think we hammered Kilkenny or Tipperary!
One of the biggest problems in Waterford is that the media generally fails to critically analyse team performances. In contrast the media in Kilkenny is never slow to criticise players or management. Lets be blunt: The display last Saturday night was appallingly bad. Its time to call it as it is. One would think that it was a very poor intermediate club hurling match.

No you would not.

seananigans

I would off the pace ,even with all the space of a poor team driving wide after wide,no hunger,no want ,and a bare bones performance that will impress no one, we played well in the first day against Cork, weren't allowed hurl before or since

culbaire

Mountainlad wrote: »

No you would not.

Its time to call it as it is. It was an appalling standard of hurling. Worse than bad intermediate club hurling. There is too much decent skin nonsense in Waterford. Time to call mediocrity what it is: mediocrity.

Mountainlad

culbaire wrote: »

Its time to call it as it is. It was an appalling standard of hurling. Worse than bad intermediate club hurling. There is too much decent skin nonsense in Waterford. Time to call mediocrity what it is: mediocrity.

It's not at a level I'd expect, though had they won by 20 points it would hardly make any difference. To genuinely compare it (twice to suggest your not exaggerating) to Intermediate club hurling would make people less inclined to take you seriously.

There is no need for some of the hyperbole around here.

culbaire

Mountainlad wrote: »

It's not at a level I'd expect, though had they won by 20 points it would hardly make any difference. To genuinely compare it (twice to suggest your not exaggerating) to Intermediate club hurling would make people less inclined to take you seriously.

There is no need for some of the hyperbole around here.

I am not the only supporter who has made those comments. Most people at the match last Saturday night were shocked at the poor quality of hurling.

robopaddy

KevIRL wrote: »

Great piece by Donal Og Cusack about last weeks Ken McGrath match

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/donal-og-cusack/at-home-on-hurlings-holy-ground-274299.html

Brilliant stuff

seananigans

culbaire wrote: »

I am not the only supporter who has made those comments. Most people at the match last Saturday night were shocked at the poor quality of hurling.

Was sitting beside a former laois inter county player, lovely man,great reading of the game, was disgusted we didnt put up a better show, this against his team who were comfortaby handled, that should tell you something, there was a spark there against cork nthe first day ,they need to find it

Alf Tupper

olpaddymac wrote: »

Id say you have no clue about Hurling full stop. That schools hurling you talk of is one of the hardest competitions to win. De La Salle have gone back because some of their marquee names have got older and slower. Couldn't agree more with the poster that said of all places Waterford is not ready for an internal candidate.

You could indeed ask yourself about your own knowledge of hurling.

You're living in the past.

The standard of Colleges hurling is overrated. DLS won those, in the main, using physicality.

How and why?

Because the majority of Colleges hurling is played in the muck and s**t of winter. Brutal weather, heavy sod, funereal pace, most balls travelling less than 50 yards etc. It's built on a false premise. Colleges hurling is for what people call the more agricultural hurler. Just like National League.

This is why many lads who excel at Colleges level are found out once the sap starts to rise in Summer. I could name so many lads who stood out over the last 10 years at that level that any genuine judge of a hurler would have told you at the time would never make it once the pace quickened.

How many Harty's did Flannan's win back in the 70's and early 80's, made up on the back of Clare, Limerick and Tipp lads. Yet, how many All Irelands did Clare, Limerick and Tipp win in the following ten years.

Flannan's and DLS contested the Harty final in 1976, a match played to much fanfare with DLS being narrowly beaten. Many of the same lads played minor for Waterford that year. We all went to Thurles with talks of a crack minor team, the best for years. We were riddled by Limerick by over 20 points, with most of those self same guys not at the races, way off the pace.

Different qualities are needed for Winter hurling. The pedestrian, more physical hurler will thrive in those conditions.

Summer hurling needs lads with quick wrists, pace, quick feet, quick brains. Of course, there are the exceptions who can hurl in both sets of conditions, but invariably these are the real star guys.

Colleges was a gauge back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s with the heavy sliothar, not any more.

There is a reason why Championship hurling is played in Summer and League in Winter.

Deise Hurler

Alf Tupper wrote: »

You could indeed ask yourself about your own knowledge of hurling.

You're living in the past.

The standard of Colleges hurling is overrated. DLS won those, in the main, using physicality.

How and why?

Because the majority of Colleges hurling is played in the muck and s**t of winter. Brutal weather, heavy sod, funereal pace, most balls travelling less than 50 yards etc. It's built on a false premise. Colleges hurling is for what people call the more agricultural hurler. Just like National League.

This is why many lads who excel at Colleges level are found out once the sap starts to rise in Summer. I could name so many lads who stood out over the last 10 years at that level that any genuine judge of a hurler would have told you at the time would never make it once the pace quickened.

How many Harty's did Flannan's win back in the 70's and early 80's, made up on the back of Clare, Limerick and Tipp lads. Yet, how many All Irelands did Clare, Limerick and Tipp win in the following ten years.

Flannan's and DLS contested the Harty final in 1976, a match played to much fanfare with DLS being narrowly beaten. Many of the same lads played minor for Waterford that year. We all went to Thurles with talks of a crack minor team, the best for years. We were riddled by Limerick by over 20 points, with most of those self same guys not at the races, way off the pace.

Different qualities are needed for Winter hurling. The pedestrian, more physical hurler will thrive in those conditions.

Summer hurling needs lads with quick wrists, pace, quick feet, quick brains. Of course, there are the exceptions who can hurl in both sets of conditions, but invariably these are the real star guys.

Colleges was a gauge back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s with the heavy sliothar, not any more.

There is a reason why Championship hurling is played in Summer and League in Winter.

Very well said.
The DLS team of 07 were a very lucky team. Was at 2 of their games where they didn't deserve to win but won that year. First up against Thurlus CBS up in Tipp. Thurlus a way better team but the Thurlus keeper left in a couple of howlers. Also against Castlecomer down in New Ross. Castlecomer far the stronger team but extremely wasteful in front of the posts. Philip Mahony and Noel Connors were top class that day too. DLS were very fit, we'll drilled and had great belief, which was a credit to McGrath. However being able to spend ridicolous amounts of money on a school team is a massive advantage that many other schools don't have. The amount of gear and the trips away that those lads got, it is no wonder they all have great time for McGrath and Dooley, his sidekick. Stephen Power was invaluable to those teams. His free taking won many a match for those DLS teams. In the 07 Harty final vs St Flannans he scored all but one of their scores, all from frees, which tells you all you need to know about winter hurling. The following year DLS retained the Harty and Rice Cups with a lot of different players so credit there. A lot of the present senior squad would have played on that team, SOK, Daniels, Noel Connors, Barry Coughlan, 2 Mahony's and Brian O Sullivan. Stephen Power was also back in 08 and again his free taking was invaluable. The new Paul Flynn, some were calling him. McGrath and Dooley did an excellent job with those teams but it must be remembered that DLS is a massive school and was competing against many schools who wouldn't have a third of its pupils, never mind half of them. Big advantage in winter hurling to be able to play a sixth year rather not having big numbers and having to play a third year or TY student. Also DLS were able to poach players from other schools with lots of incentives, something most other schools wouldn't do.

Derek is a top bloke and nearly all his students would have had massive respect for him, mostly due to him being so sound. However the negative tactics he is using at present with Waterford are killing us as we'll as his stuborness to change them. If he could only go back to 15 v 15 and Instill the sort of belief and hunger in the Waterford Senior team as he did with DLS in 07 and 08, then we wouldn't all be so negative about our county senior hurling team's chances.