Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

Hamstrings59

Alf Tupper wrote: »

You could indeed ask yourself about your own knowledge of hurling.

You're living in the past.

The standard of Colleges hurling is overrated. DLS won those, in the main, using physicality.

How and why?

Because the majority of Colleges hurling is played in the muck and s**t of winter. Brutal weather, heavy sod, funereal pace, most balls travelling less than 50 yards etc. It's built on a false premise. Colleges hurling is for what people call the more agricultural hurler. Just like National League.

This is why many lads who excel at Colleges level are found out once the sap starts to rise in Summer. I could name so many lads who stood out over the last 10 years at that level that any genuine judge of a hurler would have told you at the time would never make it once the pace quickened.

How many Harty's did Flannan's win back in the 70's and early 80's, made up on the back of Clare, Limerick and Tipp lads. Yet, how many All Irelands did Clare, Limerick and Tipp win in the following ten years.

Flannan's and DLS contested the Harty final in 1976, a match played to much fanfare with DLS being narrowly beaten. Many of the same lads played minor for Waterford that year. We all went to Thurles with talks of a crack minor team, the best for years. We were riddled by Limerick by over 20 points, with most of those self same guys not at the races, way off the pace.

Different qualities are needed for Winter hurling. The pedestrian, more physical hurler will thrive in those conditions.

Summer hurling needs lads with quick wrists, pace, quick feet, quick brains. Of course, there are the exceptions who can hurl in both sets of conditions, but invariably these are the real star guys.

Colleges was a gauge back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s with the heavy sliothar, not any more.

There is a reason why Championship hurling is played in Summer and League in Winter.

What a load of smack. I suppose you could say the same about fitzgibbon as it's played in the winter?!!

Mountainlad

Deise Hurler wrote: »

Very well said.
The DLS team of 07 were a very lucky team. Was at 2 of their games where they didn't deserve to win but won that year. First up against Thurlus CBS up in Tipp. Thurlus a way better team but the Thurlus keeper left in a couple of howlers. Also against Castlecomer down in New Ross. Castlecomer far the stronger team but extremely wasteful in front of the posts. Philip Mahony and Noel Connors were top class that day too. DLS were very fit, we'll drilled and had great belief, which was a credit to McGrath. However being able to spend ridicolous amounts of money on a school team is a massive advantage that many other schools don't have. The amount of gear and the trips away that those lads got, it is no wonder they all have great time for McGrath and Dooley, his sidekick. Stephen Power was invaluable to those teams. His free taking won many a match for those DLS teams. In the 07 Harty final vs St Flannans he scored all but one of their scores, all from frees, which tells you all you need to know about winter hurling. The following year DLS retained the Harty and Rice Cups with a lot of different players so credit there. A lot of the present senior squad would have played on that team, SOK, Daniels, Noel Connors, Barry Coughlan, 2 Mahony's and Brian O Sullivan. Stephen Power was also back in 08 and again his free taking was invaluable. The new Paul Flynn, some were calling him. McGrath and Dooley did an excellent job with those teams but it must be remembered that DLS is a massive school and was competing against many schools who wouldn't have a third of its pupils, never mind half of them. Big advantage in winter hurling to be able to play a sixth year rather not having big numbers and having to play a third year or TY student. Also DLS were able to poach players from other schools with lots of incentives, something most other schools wouldn't do.

Derek is a top bloke and nearly all his students would have had massive respect for him, mostly due to him being so sound. However the negative tactics he is using at present with Waterford are killing us as we'll as his stuborness to change them. If he could only go back to 15 v 15 and Instill the sort of belief and hunger in the Waterford Senior team as he did with DLS in 07 and 08, then we wouldn't all be so negative about our county senior hurling team's chances.

But sure what choice does he have with all these 'winter' hurlers on his team...

Alf Tupper

Hamstrings59 wrote: »

What a load of smack. I suppose you could say the same about fitzgibbon as it's played in the winter?!!

In a word, yes.

Too much made of Fitzgibbon also.

Orizio

Whatever about schools, there is definitely too much made about Fitzgibbon, and I would say Minor. Lot of superstars at Minor that are there because of their physicality, and the same could be said about Fitz.

Hamstrings59

Fitzgibbon is the nearest thing to senior inter county hurling you'll get, any player or manager would tell you that.

Alf Tupper

Hamstrings59 wrote: »

Fitzgibbon is the nearest thing to senior inter county hurling you'll get, any player or manager would tell you that.

What a load of smack, you.

The Fitzgibbon finals are played over two days in the muck and the sh*t of Winter, after lads being collectively trained for six months in a college environment.

Nearest thing to senior inter county my h*le.

Inter county U21 championship is the nearest thing to Senior inter county.

deiseach

Alf Tupper wrote: »

Flannan's and DLS contested the Harty final in 1976, a match played to much fanfare with DLS being narrowly beaten. Many of the same lads played minor for Waterford that year. We all went to Thurles with talks of a crack minor team, the best for years. We were riddled by Limerick by over 20 points, with most of those self same guys not at the races, way off the pace.

Wrong! It was 20 points, not 'over' 20 points. 3-20 to 2-3.

Seriously though,that's some impressive powers of recall.

Alf Tupper

deiseach wrote: »

Wrong! It was 20 points, not 'over' 20 points. 3-20 to 2-3.

Seriously though,that's some impressive powers of recall.

Ah I just get fed up with much of the rubbish written on here.

I do not have a club or east/west agenda but some guys actually think there was no hurling in Waterford before Ballygunner and DLS became prominent and that they now hold the blueprint. They speak down to some really good hurling people, typical of the vulgarity of the nouveau riche.


Ffs, Waterford lads from Erin's Own, Mount Sion, Dungarvan, Portlaw, Tallow, Lismore Ballyduff, Cappoquin, Tourin, Abbeyside etc were winning All Irelands and County championships while the lads out in Callaghane were still playing cricket for the local gentry.

Alf Tupper

deiseach wrote: »

Wrong! It was 20 points, not 'over' 20 points. 3-20 to 2-3.

Seriously though,that's some impressive powers of recall.

Ah I just get fed up with much of the rubbish written on here.

I do not have a club or east/west agenda but some guys actually think there was no hurling in Waterford before Ballygunner and DLS became prominent and that they now hold the blueprint. They speak down to some really good hurling people, typical of the vulgarity of the nouveau riche.


Ffs, Waterford lads from Erin's Own, Mount Sion, Clonea Power, Dungarvan, Portlaw, Tallow, Lismore Ballyduff, Cappoquin, Tourin, Abbeyside etc were winning All Irelands and County championships while the lads out in Callaghane were still playing cricket for the local gentry.

culbaire

Alf Tupper wrote: »

Ah I just get fed up with much of the rubbish written on here.

I do not have a club or east/west agenda but some guys actually think there was no hurling in Waterford before Ballygunner and DLS became prominent and that they now hold the blueprint. They speak down to some really good hurling people, typical of the vulgarity of the nouveau riche.


Ffs, Waterford lads from Erin's Own, Mount Sion, Dungarvan, Portlaw, Tallow, Lismore Ballyduff, Cappoquin, Tourin, Abbeyside etc were winning All Irelands and County championships while the lads out in Callaghane were still playing cricket for the local gentry.

You hit the nail on the head.

robopaddy

Deise Hurler wrote: »

Very well said.
The DLS team of 07 were a very lucky team. Was at 2 of their games where they didn't deserve to win but won that year. First up against Thurlus CBS up in Tipp. Thurlus a way better team but the Thurlus keeper left in a couple of howlers. Also against Castlecomer down in New Ross. Castlecomer far the stronger team but extremely wasteful in front of the posts. Philip Mahony and Noel Connors were top class that day too. DLS were very fit, we'll drilled and had great belief, which was a credit to McGrath. However being able to spend ridicolous amounts of money on a school team is a massive advantage that many other schools don't have. The amount of gear and the trips away that those lads got, it is no wonder they all have great time for McGrath and Dooley, his sidekick. Stephen Power was invaluable to those teams. His free taking won many a match for those DLS teams. In the 07 Harty final vs St Flannans he scored all but one of their scores, all from frees, which tells you all you need to know about winter hurling. The following year DLS retained the Harty and Rice Cups with a lot of different players so credit there. A lot of the present senior squad would have played on that team, SOK, Daniels, Noel Connors, Barry Coughlan, 2 Mahony's and Brian O Sullivan. Stephen Power was also back in 08 and again his free taking was invaluable. The new Paul Flynn, some were calling him. McGrath and Dooley did an excellent job with those teams but it must be remembered that DLS is a massive school and was competing against many schools who wouldn't have a third of its pupils, never mind half of them. Big advantage in winter hurling to be able to play a sixth year rather not having big numbers and having to play a third year or TY student. Also DLS were able to poach players from other schools with lots of incentives, something most other schools wouldn't do.

Derek is a top bloke and nearly all his students would have had massive respect for him, mostly due to him being so sound. However the negative tactics he is using at present with Waterford are killing us as we'll as his stuborness to change them. If he could only go back to 15 v 15 and Instill the sort of belief and hunger in the Waterford Senior team as he did with DLS in 07 and 08, then we wouldn't all be so negative about our county senior hurling team's chances.

That was an exceptional group of players that came through with dls in those years. To say they were lucky is a bit unfair. You make your own luck and don't retain your title by fluke. They won a lot of tight games alright but they had some hatdluck stories in the few years before that.

On another note I have seen from the harty cup draw from next year that a west limerick combination schools team have been allowed to enter. Was the plug not pulled on group teams last year after dungarvans success? Or is that you can enter a group team on the grounds that you can't actually improve and go and win the competition....

Mountainlad

robopaddy wrote: »

That was an exceptional group of players that came through with dls in those years. To say they were lucky is a bit unfair. You make your own luck and don't retain your title by fluke. They won a lot of tight games alright but they had some hatdluck stories in the few years before that.

On another note I have seen from the harty cup draw from next year that a west limerick combination schools team have been allowed to enter. Was the plug not pulled on group teams last year after dungarvans success? Or is that you can enter a group team on the grounds that you can't actually improve and go and win the competition....

Think it was because Dungarvan CBS won the B all ireland on their own?

robopaddy

Mountainlad wrote: »

Think it was because Dungarvan CBS won the B all ireland on their own?

But I thought group teams were being pulled anyway. Obviously not. In fairness that cbs team could probably have won the harty itself it was so strong. A joke to have them in the B they cakewalked the competition. That was the year to drop the combined and compete on their own. Not the following year when most of the team had gone. It was being kind of greedy really. Cbs is a very small school one of the smallest ever to compete at this level

robopaddy

Alf Tupper wrote: »

Ah I just get fed up with much of the rubbish written on here.

I do not have a club or east/west agenda but some guys actually think there was no hurling in Waterford before Ballygunner and DLS became prominent and that they now hold the blueprint. They speak down to some really good hurling people, typical of the vulgarity of the nouveau riche.


Ffs, Waterford lads from Erin's Own, Mount Sion, Dungarvan, Portlaw, Tallow, Lismore Ballyduff, Cappoquin, Tourin, Abbeyside etc were winning All Irelands and County championships while the lads out in Callaghane were still playing cricket for the local gentry.

Your sick of the rubbish being written here yet have just taken it to a whole new level yourself. Basically undermining the achievements of school teams because of the conditions of the pitches and the weather of the time of year they play in. Are you on crack? Would that not be more of a credit on a teams achievement rather than a black mark. To use an example of 1975 to back up your theory is pushing the boat a bit. You chose to ignore last years dungarvan schools achievements them players didn't do too bad at minor now did they

Alf Tupper

robopaddy wrote: »

Your sick of the rubbish being written here yet have just taken it to a whole new level yourself. Basically undermining the achievements of school teams because of the conditions of the pitches and the weather of the time of year they play in. Are you on crack? Would that not be more of a credit on a teams achievement rather than a black mark. To use an example of 1975 to back up your theory is pushing the boat a bit. You chose to ignore last years dungarvan schools achievements them players didn't do too bad at minor now did they

I'm not undermining any of those achievements, I was delighted for both DLS and Dungarvan. I just saying that colleges hurling is not the best benchmark.

How many senior hurlers do you think yourself that we might get from that Dungarvan school's team btw?

Mountainlad

When someone is hired in a job, generally the performance they give in that job is what they are judged on. An employer stops judging past experience and credentials once they agree to hire this employee.

Why can't we do the same? Constantly there is talk of our manager's past, Ryan and McGrath subjected to the same treatment (not by the same people mind). But what relevance does it have?

We should just be judging the performance being given now. My own view is that it should be better, but I believe it can improve. We just to adjust our approach. I'm no genius, but there is enough evidence to make me comfortable in saying 'possession hurling', the short game, is being vastly over-rated and is not a progressive approach to hurling.


I have no qualms about managers looking for new ways to improve, in fact it should be encouraged, but this isn't really new it's just copying what somebody else is doing and to be honest I'm not convinced by it.

Will try and be brief (not very good at that) but I believe what is trying to be achieved is securing possession in order to maximize your percentage of accurate play and therefore work the ball a number of times until finally it comes to a lad in a good scoring position that has a bit of space.

The problem, which was badly exposed today, is the ball travels so fast and is so difficult to pinpoint exactly that mistakes are inevitable. Couple that with a few players whose first touch may not be up to standard and then it occurs that the more times you pass in one attack, the more likely it is to breakdown. Quick low ball into the forwards as early in the attack as is possible really is the only way to go in my opinion, and far more likely to create goal chances.



On another note, I was a decent hurler about 10 years ago, would credit primary school and the hurling we did there with a lot of that. Went to a non hurling school, I am now muck. Watched others who played with me excel, going to places like Dungarvan and even Lismore for the hurling. I have absolutely no doubt that it's one of the most important things in the development of any hurler. I would say now, and particularly going into the future, you will see very few inter county hurlers that haven't played at a high (B colleges up) level at school.

3ships

Sorry now but to diminish the Harty Cup (the second most famous cup in hurling) just to have a cut at Derek McGrath makes me sick. Its fair enough to have a go at the tactics employed against Cork replay and Kilkenny league and a couple of other games but to even consider that the achievements of Waterford schoolboys in hurling over the last 7/8 years is not hugely significant is beyond belief.
Any Cork or Kilkenny poster (light hearted) slagging on this thread would never sink that low. I am disgusted. I didn't see much of that DLS team and understand Stephen Power's free taking was important but I did go to Carriganore last year to see Dungarvan v Kilkenny CBS and the standard of Waterford hurler on display was exhillarating. Honestly just look at that starting 15. 3 of them already progressed to the Senior 15 last week, 3 of them are still minor and among the best on the team and another 3 will be on the U-21 team in ten days, and the rest of them are outstanding prospects.

So change the tune and get back to fair criticism of the current Senior set up (if you want)

robopaddy

Alf Tupper wrote: »

I'm not undermining any of those achievements, I was delighted for both DLS and Dungarvan. I just saying that colleges hurling is not the best benchmark.

How many senior hurlers do you think yourself that we might get from that Dungarvan school's team btw?

Well we've already got 3 if you like. Colin dunford, Ryan Donnelly and Bourke all started last week's game against laois. Not a bad return just one year on. I can think of one other I think will be a cert and another 5 or 6 that have a good chance so if you got even one or 2 more it would be a big bonus

PTH2009

It's very possible we cud get the winners of the clare vs Wexford replay and they won't be played til the 19th July

If we are playing Tipp or Offaly it will be played next sat 12th in Thurles,Kilkenny or possibly limerick

Tipp looked very strong tonight and can't see us beating them or even giving them a game

Cake Man

If we were to draw Clare or Wexford, that may not be a bad thing as the winners would be playing their third game in as many weeks against us. Could be an advantage but don't you just know we will draw Tipp!

But I suppose our U21's would be out that Thursday so there'd be a few players there with only 2 days recovery if we did get Clare/Wexford so that could even things up a bit.

tomwaterford

Cake Man wrote: »

If we were to draw Clare or Wexford, that may not be a bad thing as the winners would be playing their third game in as many weeks against us. Could be an advantage but don't you just know we will draw Tipp!

that logic went well last year vs Kilkenny....Waterford were fukked after 70...while Kilkenny powered on

Cake Man

tomwaterford wrote: »

that logic went well last year vs Kilkenny....Waterford were fukked after 70...while Kilkenny powered on

Yeah that's true I suppose so it's probably not worth reading too much into.
Like I said, with the u21's out v Cork on that Thursday, you'd have the likes of Dunford, Gleeson, De Burca, Donnelly, Ray Barry with 2 big games in 3 days. All assuming we were to draw Clare/Wexford so just speculation.
Come on let's see Offaly out of that hat!

Mountainlad

Cake Man wrote: »

If we were to draw Clare or Wexford, that may not be a bad thing as the winners would be playing their third game in as many weeks against us. Could be an advantage but don't you just know we will draw Tipp!

But I suppose our U21's would be out that Thursday so there'd be a few players there with only 2 days recovery if we did get Clare/Wexford so that could even things up a bit.

Is the game definitely not on this weekend?

As in next weekend/

KevIRL

Mountainlad wrote: »

Is the game definitely not on this weekend?

As in next weekend/

If we draw tipp or Offaly its next weekend. If we get the winner of the drawn game then it will have to be put back a week

Mountainlad

KevIRL wrote: »

If we draw tipp or Offaly its next weekend. If we get the winner of the drawn game then it will have to be put back a week

So basically I just hope we don't get Tipp.

KevIRL

Offaly please

nkay1985

Is the draw tomorrow morning lads?

Mountainlad

nkay1985 wrote: »

Is the draw tomorrow morning lads?

Yep

deisedoz

Clearly in terms of moving through the draw we would all prefer Offaly. However I think in terms of gauging where we truly are we would be better off drawing one of the others. Beating Offaly would only serve to cover up the tactical shambles that we have seen so far under McGrath.

redlead

Is the next round of the qualifiers in a neutral venue or will one team get home advantage?