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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1
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hurler on de ditch wrote: »hanging on to the likes of Brick ,Mahony ,Moran,o Sullivan ,Walsh,o keefee, it is not going to get any better
Are you on crack or something? Only way to explain dropping some of them0 -
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hurler on de ditch wrote: »Plenty of top class hurlers in Waterford but unfortunately the Fish rots from the head ,everything that is wrong with Waterford hurling is the responsibility of the County Board ,the state of hurling ,finance,PR,County Grounds etc etc
This is the crux of the matter, as a county we do not project any air of confidence, our grounds are outdated ,shabby and our finances are a disgrace but more importantly our current board has a distinct lack of ability and vision.
Yes management ( senior and unser21) have a lot to answer to , but the question is who do they answer to,
Its time for the average club members ( how many of us on here are affiliated to a club) to stand up and stop accept this sH**t, and begin to put in place a competent board that will begin to create a sense of belief in Waterford hurling again0 -
This is 100% the issue and is also the reason that scully and McGrath both had the opportunity. We no longer have the backing of a certain developer and without that cannot meet the financial demands of any top class management set up. People need to remember that.
There were plenty of things wrong yesterday ( and all year ) with this Waterford set up that have nothing to do with money.0 -
There were plenty of things wrong yesterday ( and all year ) with this Waterford set up that have nothing to do with money.
This waterford set up wouldn't have even been in the equation had money not been the issue. So yeah, it has everything to do with money and an inept county board.0 -
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This waterford set up wouldn't have even been in the equation had money not been the issue. So yeah, it has everything to do with money and an inept county board.
was it not the senior players called for this manager???
the one who had all the big talk of driving Waterford to the next level:pac::pac:
just he never said it was the next level down0 -
People would want to have a sit down for themselves. Liam Sheedy being touted when the man has no interest in managing a team, especially not Waterford. Donal O Grady likewise, no way he would ever risk his reputation like that.
Donal Og Cusack has a great knowledge of the game, but has no experience of managing a team so I don't see how anyone can use that as a stick to beat McGrath with and the same time tout Cusack. The same names are thrown out everytime and none are realistic. It's a very different perception people have of Waterford outside the County than what we do.
No point even talking about a change to the manager anyway, it's not going to happen. A change to the backroom team might though. And let whoever is doing the physical training be named and shamed, I think I asked before but don't remember getting a response.0 -
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One of the things that really demoralises players is when they just don't trust the manager.
Derek has lost the trust and respect of the vast majority of these lads because he has been seen to have one set of rules for one set of players and another for the rest.
He's going to find in very difficult to get this trust and respect back.
A few examples.....
Last night Shane O'Sullivan was a non entity from start to finish, yet he was moved to every position bar the sideline. Darragh Fives, admittedly was having a torrid time, yet he was whipped straight off when, if given the chance he could have been a game changer at centre field or centre forward. One set of rules......
We're getting riddled against Clare, Shane Fives is thrown to the wolves, even though a blind man can see, just like last night, our problems lay out the field.
Ryan Donnelly taken off after 30 mins against Laois. Jesus, what sort of chance is that to give any young lad. You can also throw in the weekend in Liverpool fiasco. One set of rules...
Brian O'Sullivan started every game in the League and Championship and finished most without ever showing anything. Yet Ryan Donnelly and Ray Barry start two matches in the league and both stood out, scoring an average of about 4 or 5 points a game. yet Barry is given 15-20 mins against Cork and never heard of again. Barry cam on last year against Kilkenny and scored 1-3 and very nearly won the game for us.
Jamie Barron and Gavin O'Brien sitting on their h*oles for most of the season bar about 20 or 30 minutes.
I could go on and on but having spoken to many of those lads their heart and confidence was ripped away long before last night.
Those young lads and many more that I haven't mentioned have stopped listening because they know they've been used as pawns all year. They are not stupid.
That more than anything is the biggest indictment of Derek McGrath.
I'd like to know how he's going to regain their trust and build back up their confidence because those guys have tuned out a long time ago.
All any player asks of any manager is to be straight with him. He mightn't like it but at least he would appreciate it.
Unfortunately they didn't get a straight manager this year!!0 -
Hard to know where to start really, its been a gut-wrenching week for waterford hurling. For me the u21 defeat pains nearly more so than the senior defeat. The senior defeat was on the cards anyway lets be honest. The 21s were my hope for the year that wed really kick on in the grade this year and give the whole county a lift given how poor the seniors were performing. It was perceived to be the strongest group weve had at this grade for some time against what is a pretty poor Cork team.
The writing was on the wall then for Saturday nights game after the result on Wednesday night. Its been a long time since Ive seen Waterford teams so deflated and bereft of confidence. The sickening thing for me is that unlike previous generations a lot of our younger players come up through the system as winners. They have All Ireland and Munster minor medals, Harty Cup, Croke Cups, Fitzgibbon Cups etc, even going back as far as Tony Forristal. We have a generation of young players that know what it takes to win.
There is some serious soul-searching to be done over the next few weeks and months. Some big calls to make. We know that the under-age setup is healthy up as far as minor,and it is important that we don't take our foot off the gas in that regard, but its after that we are getting it so very badly wrong. U21 we are not at the races whatsoever and haven't been for a long time bar the odd decent performance every few years. We really need to assess how were approaching this grade. Selector Mc Dara McDonachadh said after last weeks game that the senior selectors should oversee the u21 setup. I think he may be onto something there especially given the amount of players overlapping and there will be for the next few years in my opinion. I think a guy like William Maher has a lot more to offer than just standing on the line alongside McGrath. Its all well and good people slating Queally now but the general consensus was that we were close enough to beating Clare last year until we had a player sent off and that he was entitled to another go at it. Yes management got it badly wrong on the night but lets not kid ourselves its our approach to this grade that is our downfall year after year moreso than the personell involved.
Onto the senior setup well what can you say that hasn't been said already about the system/style of play etc. McGrath was given a 3 years term, rightly so as a young manager needs time. But you also need to see progress. I'm sure that each indivudual year was to be reviewed based on how we have performed, and if there is a review of that which their should be if anyone has any brain cell in their head they will be asking serious questions as to whether this management team is the best one to take is forward. My opinion is that its not. But I dont think we will see a change for next year either, unless another player upheaval which is highly unlikely.
I dont buy into any of these east/west conspiracies its a load of crap and something that exists in the heads of certain 'supporters'. I also think this theory that McGrath was in anyway behind the shafting of Michael Ryan is ludicrous aswell. It was nothing to do with an east/west divide or anything of the sort but the players from what I gather were under some perception that under Ryan the training methods were outdated and they were falling behind other counties. When you look at counties like Clare who have this new breed of young coach like Paul Kinnerk and counties like Limerick, Dublin and Tipp have someone similar at their disposal aswell bringing. But maybe the players realise now that the far away hills are not always greener.
Where we go from here is hard to say. I genuinely dont think we will see a change. I havent met too many people who have not said they think McGrath should go but I think the county board will give McGrath a second year at least. They way we have been with managers in the past we generally dont move them on until they quit or are shafted. Possibly some change in the backroom staff. The involvement of Jim Greene I think people have been very harsh in their comments about, as sometimes it takes a bigger man to acknowledge that he needs outside help. But I refuse to beleive that a man of Greenes experience did not say to McGrath that the system hes trying to use is b*****x and is getting us nowhere. I really dont know the ins and the outs of Greenes role so I wont comment but youd have to say it speaks volumes for McGraths faith in his backroom team if this is what hes doing.0 -
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Hard to know where to start really, its been a gut-wrenching week for waterford hurling. For me the u21 defeat pains nearly more so than the senior defeat. The senior defeat was on the cards anyway lets be honest. The 21s were my hope for the year that wed really kick on in the grade this year and give the whole county a lift given how poor the seniors were performing. It was perceived to be the strongest group weve had at this grade for some time against what is a pretty poor Cork team.
The writing was on the wall then for Saturday nights game after the result on Wednesday night. Its been a long time since Ive seen Waterford teams so deflated and bereft of confidence. The sickening thing for me is that unlike previous generations a lot of our younger players come up through the system as winners. They have All Ireland and Munster minor medals, Harty Cup, Croke Cups, Fitzgibbon Cups etc, even going back as far as Tony Forristal. We have a generation of young players that know what it takes to win.
There is some serious soul-searching to be done over the next few weeks and months. Some big calls to make. We know that the under-age setup is healthy up as far as minor,and it is important that we don't take our foot off the gas in that regard, but its after that we are getting it so very badly wrong. U21 we are not at the races whatsoever and haven't been for a long time bar the odd decent performance every few years. We really need to assess how were approaching this grade. Selector Mc Dara McDonachadh said after last weeks game that the senior selectors should oversee the u21 setup. I think he may be onto something there especially given the amount of players overlapping and there will be for the next few years in my opinion. I think a guy like William Maher has a lot more to offer than just standing on the line alongside McGrath. Its all well and good people slating Queally now but the general consensus was that we were close enough to beating Clare last year until we had a player sent off and that he was entitled to another go at it. Yes management got it badly wrong on the night but lets not kid ourselves its our approach to this grade that is our downfall year after year moreso than the personell involved.
Onto the senior setup well what can you say that hasn't been said already about the system/style of play etc. McGrath was given a 3 years term, rightly so as a young manager needs time. But you also need to see progress. I'm sure that each indivudual year was to be reviewed based on how we have performed, and if there is a review of that which their should be if anyone has any brain cell in their head they will be asking serious questions as to whether this management team is the best one to take is forward. My opinion is that its not. But I dont think we will see a change for next year either, unless another player upheaval which is highly unlikely.
I dont buy into any of these east/west conspiracies its a load of crap and something that exists in the heads of certain 'supporters'. I also think this theory that McGrath was in anyway behind the shafting of Michael Ryan is ludicrous aswell. It was nothing to do with an east/west divide or anything of the sort but the players from what I gather were under some perception that under Ryan the training methods were outdated and they were falling behind other counties. When you look at counties like Clare who have this new breed of young coach like Paul Kinnerk and counties like Limerick, Dublin and Tipp have someone similar at their disposal aswell bringing. But maybe the players realise now that the far away hills are not always greener.
Where we go from here is hard to say. I genuinely dont think we will see a change. I havent met too many people who have not said they think McGrath should go but I think the county board will give McGrath a second year at least. They way we have been with managers in the past we generally dont move them on until they quit or are shafted. Possibly some change in the backroom staff. The involvement of Jim Greene I think people have been very harsh in their comments about, as sometimes it takes a bigger man to acknowledge that he needs outside help. But I refuse to beleive that a man of Greenes experience did not say to McGrath that the system hes trying to use is b*****x and is getting us nowhere. I really dont know the ins and the outs of Greenes role so I wont comment but youd have to say it speaks volumes for McGraths faith in his backroom team if this is what hes doing.
God help us poor boyeen, you're as green as the far away hills that you talk about or just not long enough around if you think Derek's advisor is acting in the role of a benevolent uncle.
Even the optics of that advisor with his arm around Derek - btw I have no doubt carefully choreographed by self same man- was enough to make anyone and everyone who remembers his role as a selector back in the 80's sick to the pit of their stomachs.
Also, you took me to task about questioning judging players on Colleges and Fitzgibbon hurling. Anyone who ever caught a hurley knows the difference between hurling in the muck and **** and hurling on a dry sod like last Wednesday's.
It doesn't give me any pleasure to say it but a few lads with those self same College's All Ireland medals got some harsh lessons.0 -
Whether McGrath stays on or not we need to unearth a few new players, particularly players who can play in the forwards and are able to win their own ball in the air. We have too many small light forwards. We need big strong lads with a good paw on them. 4 of the waterford forwards yesterday wouldn't win a ball in a month of Sundays unless it was played low in in front if them.
Players I'd like to see brought into the squad and tried out in the forwards during the league would include
Eoin Madigan DLS (Injuries permitting)
Kieran Power Clonea (Has a bit of cutting in him, worth a try in the forwards)
Brendan Phelan Ballinameela ( Struggling with injuries at the moment but has a great paw in him)
Shane Kearney Ballyduff Upper (Good hand on him and has lots of ability)
Is there any other big strong forwards out there worth a try next year?0 -
Alf Tupper wrote: »God help us poor boyeen, you're as green as the far away hills that you talk about or just not long enough around if you think Derek's advisor is acting in the role of a benevolent uncle.
Even the optics of that advisor with his arm around Derek - btw I have no doubt carefully choreographed by self same man- was enough to make anyone and everyone who remembers his role as a selector back in the 80's sick to the pit of their stomachs.
Also, you took me to task about questioning judging players on Colleges and Fitzgibbon hurling. Anyone who ever caught a hurley knows the difference between hurling in the muck and **** and hurling on a dry sod like last Wednesday's.
It doesn't give me any pleasure to say it but a few lads with those self same College's All Ireland medals got some harsh lessons.
Good man yourself I knew Id smoke you out eventually. The same drivel as last year when Michael Ryan left, same personal attacks, conspiracy theories, same rubbish. Difference between my views and your views I dont need to change my name every week from sammy swarek, babsy or manfromcheese whatever the case maybe just becuase Ive totally lost all credibility with my views.
Queue the denial and personal slags about lack of intelligence etc... I can write the script at this stage
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It's seem or touch and fitness levels were not up to the standard required.
We have been on a downward spiral since the start of the year and are a poorer side from last year.
Baffled as to why Brick, our best player at centre back the last few years, has been moved out of there0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »People would want to have a sit down for themselves. Liam Sheedy being touted when the man has no interest in managing a team, especially not Waterford. Donal O Grady likewise, no way he would ever risk his reputation like that.
Donal Og Cusack has a great knowledge of the game, but has no experience of managing a team so I don't see how anyone can use that as a stick to beat McGrath with and the same time tout Cusack. The same names are thrown out everytime and none are realistic. It's a very different perception people have of Waterford outside the County than what we do.
No point even talking about a change to the manager anyway, it's not going to happen. A change to the backroom team might though. And let whoever is doing the physical training be named and shamed, I think I asked before but don't remember getting a response.
A lack of money doesn't explain the complete lack a coherent game plan, or one that at least suits the players we have. Our hurling skills have gone backwards - if we had money would you fund this management team?. Getting rid of this management team is the first step. Derek and Dan are good guys but not good enough for the county team. I think we all are aware of the financial problems and I certainly would not be touting either of the donals or Liam sheedy. Unless one of us wins the lotto then its not going to happen. That is not an excuse for inaction. I would not be in favour of making a scapegoat of someone like Dan Shanahan. A stich-up of Dan to save McGrath is not acceptable. They all need to go.0 -
Just a few random thoughts.
Was a good game, we gave it everythin but there was no denyin wexford were better team.
Hard to know where we stand. We can mix it with cork & wexford but cant beat em. Only win was against laois.
Exciting young forward line but no big player to grab a game by the scruff. Full back is still an issue (wexford really exploited lawlor).
On bright side we blooded a lot of young players who look to have big futures and we proved we can match good sides
The thing that really stands out to me about waterford compared to other teams is size. Wexford looked v big compared to us. We are not really graced with tall forwards bar maurice but apart from that opposition teams look much bigger than us. I dunno how much physical development is bein done between minor & u21 with our guys but i dont think its upto scratch. Results at u21 level point to that bein the case
Im still v sore over the u21 game. 10 seniors we had in the team and at home. Beaten by a cork sids who are not being heralded as anything special by 11 points. Unforgivable. Not blaming Peter Queally as i dunno how much access he had to senior players etc0 -
Just a few random thoughts.
Was a good game, we gave it everythin but there was no denyin wexford were better team.
Hard to know where we stand. We can mix it with cork & wexford but cant beat em. Only win was against laois.
Exciting young forward line but no big player to grab a game by the scruff. Full back is still an issue (wexford really exploited lawlor).
On bright side we blooded a lot of young players who look to have big futures and we proved we can match good sides
The thing that really stands out to me about waterford compared to other teams is size. Wexford looked v big compared to us. We are not really graced with tall forwards bar maurice but apart from that opposition teams look much bigger than us. I dunno how much physical development is bein done between minor & u21 with our guys but i dont think its upto scratch. Results at u21 level point to that bein the case
Im still v sore over the u21 game. 10 seniors we had in the team and at home. Beaten by a cork sids who are not being heralded as anything special by 11 points. Unforgivable. Not blaming Peter Queally as i dunno how much access he had to senior players etc0 -
Amazing how John Mullane can rush to the defence of Derek Mcgrath in today's Irish Independent. As far as Mullane is concerned the players are not there. Of course this was the usual excuse down through the years when native Waterford senior hurling coaches failed. We are back to the old times.
He then proceeds to make more excuses for Derek McGrath. He agrees with Derek McGrath who believes that Waterford supporters need to be more realistic about the team and where it is going. Excuses are thrown in about injuries and suspensions. Derek was on a hiding to nothing according to Mullane. Mullane mentions the "false hopes" created by last years performance against Kilkenny. He hints that some supporters were waiting for this to happen after the removal of MIchael Ryan . He does admit that Waterford was not as fit as Wexford and praises Gerry Fitzpatrick.
He refers to supporters staying away. The article is an pathetic list of excuses designed to shield Derek McGrath from criticism. We truly are back to the bad old days of the 70s and 80s.0 -
http://www.hoganstand.com/Waterford/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=220805
According to Derek McGrath us supporters need to be realistic. I guess expecting to beat Wexford is unrealistic now, even though the same Waterford team could put it up to Kilkenny last year. He also forgets that we have been rebuilding already since at least 2012, it's not like he has started this rebuilding process. And other teams like are rebuilding too.
I wouldn't mind being patient if there were any small signs at all that the players were beginning to adopt to the new system, but we have seen nothing to indicate that after a full league and championship. It seems Derek McGrath thinks the players will get used to the system given enough time (3 years) and we just have to be patient until this happens. In the meantime we have to be realistic and not get any wild ideas like beating Wexford.
I watched the highlights last night and couldn't believe how with a 7-man defence the Wexford forwards could be totally unmarked in acres of space in our full back line. If the system was actually keeping down our points/goals conceded then fair enough.0 -
Psychedelic wrote: »http://www.hoganstand.com/Waterford/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=220805
According to Derek McGrath us supporters need to be realistic. I guess expecting to beat Wexford is unrealistic now, even though the same Waterford team could put it up to Kilkenny last year. He also forgets that we have been rebuilding already since at least 2012, it's not like he has started this rebuilding process. And other teams like are rebuilding too.
I wouldn't mind being patient if there were any small signs at all that the players were beginning to adopt to the new system, but we have seen nothing to indicate that after a full league and championship. It seems Derek McGrath thinks the players will get used to the system given enough time (3 years) and we just have to be patient until this happens. In the meantime we have to be realistic and not get any wild ideas like beating Wexford.
I watched the highlights last night and couldn't believe how with a 7-man defence the Wexford forwards could be totally unmarked in acres of space in our full back line. If the system was actually keeping down our points/goals conceded then fair enough.
The Wexford team last year lost to the All Ireland Champions in extra time, and beat the All Ireland Champions this year.
Kilkenny were very well beaten in the next game they played after us, and dismantled their team at the end of the year.0 -
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A lack of money doesn't explain the complete lack a coherent game plan, or one that at least suits the players we have. Our hurling skills have gone backwards - if we had money would you fund this management team?. Getting rid of this management team is the first step. Derek and Dan are good guys but not good enough for the county team. I think we all are aware of the financial problems and I certainly would not be touting either of the donals or Liam sheedy. Unless one of us wins the lotto then its not going to happen. That is not an excuse for inaction. I would not be in favour of making a scapegoat of someone like Dan Shanahan. A stich-up of Dan to save McGrath is not acceptable. They all need to go.
The best thing Derek could do for the betterment of Waterford gaa is to walk away. However for people that overthink too much I fear he still believes himself he can be a good manager and so will stay on. I'm afraid we will have to wait another 2 years before we can get somone in that isn't a total disaster. Unfortunally when that time arives alot of the underage talent may have been wasted. Depressing times ahead.
On a more positive note is the minor team been named tonight. I persume WLR will cover it live tomorro as it is a munster final. Hopefully all the doom and gloom Derek has brought the county hasn't rubbed off on them.0 -
I did have a loud laugh to myself when Mullane wrote 'Michael left and then Derek came in, on a hiding to nothing'. Also, that by drawing with Kilkenny last year at full time we all went mad on the false hope. :rolleyes:
The bit about Wexford being fitter than us is true and that Dunne has surrounded himself with a great backroom team likewise. McGrath hasn't and he only has himself to blame for that. Ditto to his tactics.
McGrath saying or going isn't my main problem, its the crazy tactics that don't give us a hope in hell of ever winning a match against those teams ranked above us.0 -
The Wexford team last year lost to the All Ireland Champions in extra time, and beat the All Ireland Champions this year.
Kilkenny were very well beaten in the next game they played after us, and dismantled their team at the end of the year.
A statement like this shows you have no interest in Waterford hurling, just interested in spin to keep McGrath in a positive light.
You're right; we had an excellent year. Probably better than last year. I know I feel far more optimistic about next year than I did this time last year. See the way we dismantled Laois. Excellent result, I know Carlow and the rest of IB will be shaking in their boots at the prospect of meeting us.0 -
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All senior arguments aside what's minor team for tomorrow ??0
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More players should be given a chance and not just u21s which seems to be the case fellas that have been doing well for their with a bit of experienceDeise Hurler wrote: »Whether McGrath stays on or not we need to unearth a few new players, particularly players who can play in the forwards and are able to win their own ball in the air. We have too many small light forwards. We need big strong lads with a good paw on them. 4 of the waterford forwards yesterday wouldn't win a ball in a month of Sundays unless it was played low in in front if them.
Players I'd like to see brought into the squad and tried out in the forwards during the league would include
Eoin Madigan DLS (Injuries permitting)
Kieran Power Clonea (Has a bit of cutting in him, worth a try in the forwards)
Brendan Phelan Ballinameela ( Struggling with injuries at the moment but has a great paw in him)
Shane Kearney Ballyduff Upper (Good hand on him and has lots of ability)
Is there any other big strong forwards out there worth a try next year?0 -
How does it? It is a statement of fact.
Kilkenny were not dismantled by anyone in the next round. Henry was sent off and that's why they lost.
If you are seriously trying to put a positive spin on this year then you really have no interest in Waterford hurling. A golden crop of players are about to be ruined by an incompetent manager and we really should be analysing best how to protect them, Not some manager who will be gone from the job in a year or two in any case.0 -
wtf are u on about its McGrath who is deploying these tactics????chinguetti wrote: »I did have a loud laugh to myself when Mullane wrote 'Michael left and then Derek came in, on a hiding to nothing'. Also, that by drawing with Kilkenny last year at full time we all went mad on the false hope. :rolleyes:
The bit about Wexford being fitter than us is true and that Dunne has surrounded himself with a great backroom team likewise. McGrath hasn't and he only has himself to blame for that. Ditto to his tactics.
McGrath saying or going isn't my main problem, its the crazy tactics that don't give us a hope in hell of ever winning a match against those teams ranked above us.0 -
Kilkenny were not dismantled by anyone in the next round. Henry was sent off and that's why they lost.
If you are seriously trying to put a positive spin on this year then you really have no interest in Waterford hurling. A golden crop of players are about to be ruined by an incompetent manager and we really should be analysing best how to protect them, Not some manager who will be gone from the job in a year or two in any case.
Hardly a golden crop. We have some decent hurlers coming through but so do kk, wexford, dublin, clare and tipp. I wouldn't get too carried away.0 -
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