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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1
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People seem to be forgetting that it was the players who ousted Michael Ryan, a man who from the outside looking in I thought was doing a fine job in rebuilding the team during a transition period, plus the team was well organised and came within a whisker of beating Kilkenny in Thurles last year. Even one more year of Michael Ryan would have seen some very significant progress I would think so obviously its not an issue where the players arent there. Its not Derek McGraths fault that he was selected for the job or that hes probably out of his depth. In my view the blame is completely on the players some of whom obviously have a bit of a problem with their egos, wasnt McGrath not the leading choice of the players to take over? They made their bed and now their very much lying in it simple as that.0
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No Offense to anybody here, but I am so fed up of talk about Waterford management and players!!
So anybody see any Football action this weekend? Nire look very strong this year?
Any young talent coming through this year in the competition?0 -
pmy.murphy wrote: »People seem to be forgetting that it was the players who ousted Michael Ryan, a man who from the outside looking in I thought was doing a fine job in rebuilding the team during a transition period, plus the team was well organised and came within a whisker of beating Kilkenny in Thurles last year. Even one more year of Michael Ryan would have seen some very significant progress I would think so obviously its not an issue where the players arent there. Its not Derek McGraths fault that he was selected for the job or that hes probably out of his depth. In my view the blame is completely on the players some of whom obviously have a bit of a problem with their egos, wasnt McGrath not the leading choice of the players to take over? They made their bed and now their very much lying in it simple as that.
You're right to a certain extent. The players ousted Justin in 2008 and Davy came in and bankrupted the county board. They now ousted Michael Ryan and Derek McGrath comes in with his excuses of 'transitioning' and a three year plan. Why haven't I heard a word from JBM about 'transitioning' despite his complete overhaul of the cork team!0 -
pmy.murphy wrote: »People seem to be forgetting that it was the players who ousted Michael Ryan, a man who from the outside looking in I thought was doing a fine job in rebuilding the team during a transition period, plus the team was well organised and came within a whisker of beating Kilkenny in Thurles last year. Even one more year of Michael Ryan would have seen some very significant progress I would think so obviously its not an issue where the players arent there. Its not Derek McGraths fault that he was selected for the job or that hes probably out of his depth. In my view the blame is completely on the players some of whom obviously have a bit of a problem with their egos, wasnt McGrath not the leading choice of the players to take over? They made their bed and now their very much lying in it simple as that.
Yea I would agree with many of the above comments. We do have the players to be competitive at least and last year had shown that. Too many excuses been put forward to justify the performances this year especially by John.0 -
When Derek McGrath took over Waterford was in division 1A . Contrast the Waterford performance against Kilkenny last year with the shambles against Cork in the replay and against Wexford. Throw in relegation as well. We were informed here and everywhere that the management team of all the talents had taken over. The reality is that this year has been an abysmal failure. The management team is out of its depth. A badly prepared and organised team took to the field against Wexford. In addition we had some very stupid decisions made by the selectors. We had overweight players whose skill levels have declined alarmingly in the last year. I could go on and on. If Waterford is prepared to tolerate this, it deserves to languish at the bottom. There it will stay. You may be satisfied with this. The majority of loyal supporters have had enough and will just stay at home. A warning of what is in store for the future came with the low attendance of Waterford supporters at Nowlan Park.Wexford never got going, whether it be stage fright or tiredness we'll never know. I would think that on form, they'd probably be 3-5 points off Limerick.
I think that probably accurately shows how far Waterford are off the semi finalists. Cork beat us by 14 points in Munster, Kilkenny beat us by 18 or so points in the league. Tipp were there for the taking in the League, but we'd be doing well to get within 6 of them right now.
People talk about how we shouldn't be accepting mediocrity, but being completely honest, do we have mediocre players right now? Certainly in the forwards we are well below average, and the team has an average spine apart from probably centre back and one of our midfielders.
Things might have gone backwards a bit under McGrath, but that rot was set in before he got there - that sort of damage isn't done in a year. As a small county we were never under any guarantee to develop players of the quality we had before.
As the rot didn't take place overnight, the recovery won't happen overnight either. Waterford fans will probably need to wait another couple of years before they can hope to challenge for Munster titles again, regardless of who we have in charge.0 -
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pmy.murphy wrote: »People seem to be forgetting that it was the players who ousted Michael Ryan, a man who from the outside looking in I thought was doing a fine job in rebuilding the team during a transition period, plus the team was well organised and came within a whisker of beating Kilkenny in Thurles last year. Even one more year of Michael Ryan would have seen some very significant progress I would think so obviously its not an issue where the players arent there. Its not Derek McGraths fault that he was selected for the job or that hes probably out of his depth. In my view the blame is completely on the players some of whom obviously have a bit of a problem with their egos, wasnt McGrath not the leading choice of the players to take over? They made their bed and now their very much lying in it simple as that.
Anyone who is suggesting that the team didn't go backwards under Ryan is factually incorrect. Moral victories don't count I'm afraid. This decline has continued under McGrath.
2011: 3rd place National League, Munster Final, All Ireland Semi
2012: 4th place National League, Munster Final, All Ireland Quarter
2013: 4th Place National League, Munster Quarter, 3rd Round All Ireland Qualifier0 -
Anyone who is suggesting that the team didn't go backwards under Ryan is factually incorrect. Moral victories don't count I'm afraid. This decline has continued under McGrath.
2011: 3rd place National League, Munster Final, All Ireland Semi
2012: 4th place National League, Munster Final, All Ireland Quarter
2013: 4th Place National League, Munster Quarter, 3rd Round All Ireland Qualifier
True but would you say John Mullane is a big difference to 2012 and 2013? Again 2012 unlucky not to beat Cork, and 2011 in fairness there was THAT Munster final.
Point taken though. Especially on moral victories though would feel that performance is important, and in that respect just on a pretty simplistic level I haven't gotten enjoyment out of any of their performances this year, where last year and the year before I did.
Counterpoint to that is I didn't enjoy too many performances under Fitzgerald, and we were still winning a few games a year. (Still don't think the team was fulfilling it's potential)0 -
Sliabh gCua1 wrote: »To call Wexford a poor team is very harsh. OK they are no world beaters, but yesterday you have to factor in that they played is it five senior championship games in six weeks, two of which went to extra time, and they also had some players involved in an under 21 game as well. If Wexford are a poor side, what are Waterford as they deserved their win over Waterford last week.
If we learn one thing from Wexford and their recent run of games, it is that the GAA has to look at its calender and to work out a way so that games are more spread out and maybe for inter county games, up to and including a semi final, that they are finished on the day, something like games in the Fitzgibbon Cup are once they reach the knockout stages of the competition.
Thomas Keane welcome back0 -
thegambler2 wrote: »No Offense to anybody here, but I am so fed up of talk about Waterford management and players!!
So anybody see any Football action this weekend? Nire look very strong this year?
Any young talent coming through this year in the competition?
Think they'll win it, priority seems to be football from an outside view. The last few years it had been hurling, though there was a hangover there in both codes after the disappointments of 2012.
Ballinacourty the threat, think Stradbally are just pushing on and while they have the Ahearnes they are going to long without winning or even competing in top grades at underge.
Ballinacourty seem to have put in a good performance against An Rinn. Gavin Nugent was supposedly excellent for Rathgormack, though we all know about him if it was from an unknown young player perspective you were asking.0 -
Anyone who is suggesting that the team didn't go backwards under Ryan is factually incorrect. Moral victories don't count I'm afraid. This decline has continued under McGrath.
2011: 3rd place National League, Munster Final, All Ireland Semi
2012: 4th place National League, Munster Final, All Ireland Quarter
2013: 4th Place National League, Munster Quarter, 3rd Round All Ireland Qualifier
I wouldnt put it down to just the team went backwards, Ryan had to try and replace some pretty big names who had been retiring in twos and threes every year. John Mullane was a huge loss. Along with that, as Ryan was trying to rebuild the team others like Clare, Limerick and Cork were already improving quickly along with the likes of Dublin and Galway who had that unreal year in 2012. I would put it down more to the raised standard of the other teams in the game rather than Michael Ryan0 -
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Anyone who is suggesting that the team didn't go backwards under Ryan is factually incorrect. Moral victories don't count I'm afraid. This decline has continued under McGrath.
2011: 3rd place National League, Munster Final, All Ireland Semi
2012: 4th place National League, Munster Final, All Ireland Quarter
2013: 4th Place National League, Munster Quarter, 3rd Round All Ireland Qualifier
What's with the Ryan bashing? The man lost his job 12 months ago. Why the need to keep at it...a certain element in Waterford got there way. Be happy with that surely, it just looks pathetic bashing him now considering how the current year went.0 -
Whatever about factual progress etc I think the best way to judge how the team has done this year is by the level of travelling support and people have voted very firmly with their feet this year against the torrid puke hurling which has been on display0
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What's with the Ryan bashing? The man lost his job 12 months ago. Why the need to keep at it...a certain element in Waterford got there way. Be happy with that surely, it just looks pathetic bashing him now considering how the current year went.
I consistently refrain from manager bashing, but will even up blatant bashing of any party which uses blatant ranting to back up a point.
The facts speak for themselves.0 -
I consistently refrain from manager bashing, but will even up blatant bashing of any party which uses blatant ranting to back up a point.
The facts speak for themselves.
In that case the facts do not speak for themselves. You refer to moral victories, well under Davy we may have got to a few all ireland semi finals but when it came to playing the big teams we had the mentality of taking a moral victory from the outset. At no point did we ever come close to taking any major scalp. Or really appear to want to (I suppose with the exception of tipp in 2008 who realistically weren't to the same standard that day as the following years). Under Michael Ryan at least the team gave it a go, went toe to toe with Kilkenny and weren't afraid of them. So we got beat, I don't think anyone here thought of it as a moral victory. People were more proud the team stood up and took on the opposition man to man. That's a big difference to a moral victory. This time last year there was a real sense of pride in the team, not so much now. There all the facts you need.0 -
In that case the facts do not speak for themselves. You refer to moral victories, well under Davy we may have got to a few all ireland semi finals but when it came to playing the big teams we had the mentality of taking a moral victory from the outset. At no point did we ever come close to taking any major scalp. Or really appear to want to (I suppose with the exception of tipp in 2008 who realistically weren't to the same standard that day as the following years). Under Michael Ryan at least the team gave it a go, went toe to toe with Kilkenny and weren't afraid of them. So we got beat, I don't think anyone here thought of it as a moral victory. People were more proud the team stood up and took on the opposition man to man. That's a big difference to a moral victory. This time last year there was a real sense of pride in the team, not so much now. There all the facts you need.
What the hell do scalps have to do with anything? How can you separate pride, scalps and moral victories? They all sound terribly similar.
Fitzgerald won a Munster in 2010 - you may have forgotten.0 -
What the hell do scalps have to do with anything? How can you separate pride, scalps and moral victories? They all sound terribly similar.
Fitzgerald won a Munster in 2010 - you may have forgotten.
It wouldn't be that hard to forget, I was at both games. That was a very poor cork team with the 'twin towers' in attack. What I mean by scalps is that when it came to the bigger teams Waterford were never at the races, aka Tipp in 2011.
On a side note, Fitzgerald prematurely retired Ken Mcgrath and Dan who both at another year in them.0 -
What the hell do scalps have to do with anything? How can you separate pride, scalps and moral victories? They all sound terribly similar.
Fitzgerald won a Munster in 2010 - you may have forgotten.
I'd be inclined to agree with you in terms of ranting. Think in fairness it's a justifiable opinion at this stage that Ryan was hard done by but at the same time it's pretty irrelevant. That whole affair was the County Board's fault primarily.
Still don't know for certain who was involved, as much as everyone wants to tell me they know but again I am not convinced. But that aside, whoever made the call to run to tweet the news that Michael Ryan had resigned made a very foolish move.
Devoid of common sense. Don't fancy getting to far into this debate, but I would say that I think Waterford hurling is still heading in the right direction. Whether McGrath stays or goes, and that is all dependent on an improvement next year, Waterford are producing enough quality hurlers to get back up to competing for top honours.
He has two more years max and if he gets anymore he'll have earned it. You'd swear he has been given a ten year deal the way some go on. Every manager was taking us back to the dark ages, Fitzgerald, Ryan, McGrath. Don't forget those underage ones, Ahearne, Queally, Hartley. Even Jimmy Meaney according didn't get the best out of his teams.
The reality is Dunford, Gleeson and Bourke have all made the step up to Senior this year. With a bit of luck the likes of Barron, Fives and even Jake Dillon (who missed a lot of important preparation time) will be fit next year and dare I even say Brian O Halloran. That and maybe Stephen Bennett and one or two more getting a chance would cast a very different complexion on it I would wager.0 -
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Mountainlad wrote: »I'd be inclined to agree with you in terms of ranting. Think in fairness it's a justifiable opinion at this stage that Ryan was hard done by but at the same time it's pretty irrelevant. That whole affair was the County Board's fault primarily.
Still don't know for certain who was involved, as much as everyone wants to tell me they know but again I am not convinced. But that aside, whoever made the call to run to tweet the news that Michael Ryan had resigned made a very foolish move.
Devoid of common sense. Don't fancy getting to far into this debate, but I would say that I think Waterford hurling is still heading in the right direction. Whether McGrath stays or goes, and that is all dependent on an improvement next year, Waterford are producing enough quality hurlers to get back up to competing for top honours.
He has two more years max and if he gets anymore he'll have earned it. You'd swear he has been given a ten year deal the way some go on. Every manager was taking us back to the dark ages, Fitzgerald, Ryan, McGrath. Don't forget those underage ones, Ahearne, Queally, Hartley. Even Jimmy Meaney according didn't get the best out of his teams.
The reality is Dunford, Gleeson and Bourke have all made the step up to Senior this year. With a bit of luck the likes of Barron, Fives and even Jake Dillon (who missed a lot of important preparation time) will be fit next year and dare I even say Brian O Halloran. That and maybe Stephen Bennett and one or two more getting a chance would cast a very different complexion on it I would wager.
That just sounds like spin to me. It's all too easy to point to young lads and say the future of Waterford hurling is bright. Tactically the team have been set up as a shambles this year, physically the team are also a shambles with it being very evident players are not fit enough for a full 70 minutes at inter county level. This is the very basis of management and somebody needs to be held to account for this.0 -
Absolute nonsense. Ken either has had or will have both his knees replaced at this stage.
By retiring Dan I presume you mean not starting him based on his form.
The last time I saw Ken play was above at Croke Park where he came on against TIpp and scored 4 points from play with about 15 mins left. He was on absolute fire and there was no reason for Davy not to start him. Again the same with Dan, that match against Galway springs to mind.0 -
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The last time I saw Ken play was above at Croke Park where he came on against TIpp and scored 4 points from play with about 15 mins left. He was on absolute fire and there was no reason for Davy not to start him. Again the same with Dan, that match against Galway springs to mind.
Ken quit himself. He felt he was off the pace in 2011 when they played Cork in the league and decided his day was done. His body failed him, what a warrior though.
As for spin, I as much as anyone am not happy with this year. But I refuse to believe like some here would that one man is going to ruin Waterford hurling. We wouldn't be ruined no more than we will be all Ireland champions next year.0 -
The team retained its division 1A status under Michael Ryan. It lost it under Derek McGrath. There is no point in you trying to spin in favour of Derek McGrath. The chaos that prevailed this year is common knowledge amongst many supporters who are fed up with this management team. You are trying to defend the indefensible.Anyone who is suggesting that the team didn't go backwards under Ryan is factually incorrect. Moral victories don't count I'm afraid. This decline has continued under McGrath.
2011: 3rd place National League, Munster Final, All Ireland Semi
2012: 4th place National League, Munster Final, All Ireland Quarter
2013: 4th Place National League, Munster Quarter, 3rd Round All Ireland Qualifier0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »Ken quit himself. He felt he was off the pace in 2011 when they played Cork in the league and decided his day was done. His body failed him, what a warrior though.
As for spin, I as much as anyone am not happy with this year. But I refuse to believe like some here would that one man is going to ruin Waterford hurling. We wouldn't be ruined no more than we will be all Ireland champions next year.
Can't agree with you. What's your take on jim Greene's involvement? Surely does this not show a manager that has lost the plot? If you were Maher Flannery or Shanahan what would your take be in the manager bringing in Greene? Whatever about Flannery and Maher, Shanahan would have the inside track on him and would certainly be not too happy I'd imagine about having him on board.
What I'm trying to get at is that in his first year he looks like a rabbit in the headlights,panic decisions made,panic"experts"introduced(and include Pat Bennett from Ballysaggart in that for the Wexford game)and throughout all this we as a county have gone backwards. He genuinely hasn't a clue what he's doing and if left there for much longer I personally think he will ruin a great crop of young hurlers coming through. His treatment of some players has been abysmal,has different rules for others on the panel all the while not being straight up with them as he should be.This is a mess pure and simple and having seen the brand of hurling he's trying to implement we'll be where we are now for a long time to come. But what does all the ranting and raving matter on here anyway as we know he's going to be there next year as the keystone cops on the board ain't going to change anything so we might just aswell get used to it.
Finally though id love to know,outside of the players on the panel that he previously coached what are the rest of the squad thinking of the set up now?
Probably never know!0 -
For those of us a bit young to remember or be in the know. Why is Jim Greene so despised in Waterford hurling circles?0
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Can't agree with you. What's your take on jim Greene's involvement? Surely does this not show a manager that has lost the plot? If you were Maher Flannery or Shanahan what would your take be in the manager bringing in Greene? Whatever about Flannery and Maher, Shanahan would have the inside track on him and would certainly be not too happy I'd imagine about having him on board.
What I'm trying to get at is that in his first year he looks like a rabbit in the headlights,panic decisions made,panic"experts"introduced(and include Pat Bennett from Ballysaggart in that for the Wexford game)and throughout all this we as a county have gone backwards. He genuinely hasn't a clue what he's doing and if left there for much longer I personally think he will ruin a great crop of young hurlers coming through. His treatment of some players has been abysmal,has different rules for others on the panel all the while not being straight up with them as he should be.This is a mess pure and simple and having seen the brand of hurling he's trying to implement we'll be where we are now for a long time to come. But what does all the ranting and raving matter on here anyway as we know he's going to be there next year as the keystone cops on the board ain't going to change anything so we might just aswell get used to it.
Finally though id love to know,outside of the players on the panel that he previously coached what are the rest of the squad thinking of the set up now?
Probably never know!
You have referenced the one rule for some players and other rules for others, as well as false promises etc a few times now, can you elaborate at all without going into specifics or naming names, in general, what are you talking about?0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »Ken quit himself. He felt he was off the pace in 2011 when they played Cork in the league and decided his day was done. His body failed him, what a warrior though.
Putting him in centre field that day retired him, I am sure if he had been started full forward or roving from the corner we could have got a lot more from Ken that year. Davy made a point sticking him in midfield that day, proving Ken could not reach the standards he had previously set for himself, that is not to say he could not have contributed on another level but we will never know.0 -
Putting him in centre field that day retired him, I am sure if he had been started full forward or roving from the corner we could have got a lot more from Ken that year. Davy made a point sticking him in midfield that day, proving Ken could not reach the standards he had previously set for himself, that is not to say he could not have contributed on another level but we will never know.
The game was up, simple as. To suggest that Davy fitz started him midfield to purposely send him into retirement is utter rubbish. His knees were gone. It was a sad way to end it but ken knew himself.0 -
The game was up, simple as. To suggest that Davy fitz started him midfield to purposely send him into retirement is utter rubbish. His knees were gone. It was a sad way to end it but ken knew himself.
You are 100% right his knees were gone so why put him centre field?
It was a sad way to see him go and you are right he knew himself he was not up to the level he wanted \ needed to be
The point I am making is I don't think we will seeing Cody starting Sheflin at centre forward this year never mind mid field, lesser hurlers would clean him out0 -
savannahkat wrote: »My tuppence worth. There are enough good players in Waterford to compete in division 1A, for Munster and for National titles. They might not win them but they are good enough to be competing and should not be were they are now. Secondly the players are there at underage to suggest and even brighter future. The players are there so if a problem exists it is not in that area.
You are correct when you say the players are there. There is also some good underage players around, but good underage players or underage teams dont always mean that things will be carried forward to the highest level.
Our biggest problem in Waterford is our structures. But nobody has the balls to re-examine them. We have to have a serious look at how we do things here in Waterford starting from 2015. We have to get rid of the divisional boards, but i suppose if and when it comes to a vote, like turkey's not voting for Christmas, most clubs wont vote for change.
I cant see any of the of the divisional officers voting to abolish the boards they sit on, and you will get some who are on the county board who wont vote for change. Add in the clubs of the officers who wont vote for change, because they wont want to go against their club member, automatically, there is a substancial amount of votes in favour of keeping things the way they are.
You have to wonder what some players are getting out of the systems we currently have. I dont always like making examples of players, but will for this. Take Colin Dunford as an example. He was one of our most impressive players in this years championship. He plays with Colligan who have four junior championship games at a minimum this year and would get three more if they were to go on to contest a county final. Is that really enough for a player of his calibre. Four clubs compete in the western junior hurling this year, down from seven a few years back {Ballysaggart promoted, Kilgobinet relegated, Kilrossanty no longer play hurling}, thats three games and just to make up games, the team you play in the first round, you play them a second time.
Because of the shambolic County Website we have here in Waterford where it is hard at times to find results and league tables, off the top of my head i dont know how many clubs are playing junior hurling in the east of the county, at a guess, maybe four or five more clubs.
Why not put all of these seven or eight clubs into the one group and let them play each other once, then have quarter finals, semi finals and a final. That way a club could have a good amount of games which will bring on players more.0 -
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What the hell do scalps have to do with anything? How can you separate pride, scalps and moral victories? They all sound terribly similar.
Fitzgerald won a Munster in 2010 - you may have forgotten.
And 12 months later was in charge of a team and came up with a game plan were we suffered a defeat that was more embarrassing that the ones of 1982 and 83 put together.0
This discussion has been closed.
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