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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1
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lets wait another 51 years and have another 17 three year plans ,and for the sheer hell of it ,D mc Grath and Sir Alex Ferguson in the same post ffs ,,you really are taking the piss ,is D mc Grath your brother/Father/Son or sister perhaps ?Ye are jumping the gun here lads. This is a 3 year plan. Only one year down. Its a big project. Rome wasn't built in a day shur wasn't Alex Ferguson with united for donkeys years before he won anything. Derek has tasted success with every team he has managed and it will happen again. He's a top manager and a top guy. Any of the lads that played under him at dls and the school will tell you. They are the ones that are in the know and would die for him. Patience is a virtue men0 -
It does highlight how poor this Cork team really were and all the more galling to get beat by them in our own back yard by 11 points.
Tonight's result of Clare hammerng Cork who had earlier hammered us when we were supposed to have the best U21 team that we have ever assembled again highlights major problems we are having in maximising the talent that is available at this level.
We have reached 5 of the last 6 munster minor finals and have been producing good quality players up as far as under 18 but for whatever reason we haven't won a game at U21 since 2009 which means there is something wrong.
We had Fergal Hartley in 2011 and 2012 and had Peter Queally in 2013 and 2014. The last time we did ok at this level was 2009 when Shane Ahearn managed them. Cant remember who was there in 2010.
The results in the last 5 yrs has been
2010 WD 1.03 CK 1.16
2011 WD 1.16 Tipp 4.12
2012 WD 0.09 CL 2.22
2013 WD 0.17 CL 2.15
2014 WD 0.16 CK 3.16
No where near good enough. So where is it going wrong. Should there be some connection between the senior and U21 team i.e. in Clare Paul Kinnerk does the hurling training for the U21's and shares the senior training sessions with Davy. Also should there be a link between those who looked after the players when they were minor and now when they are U21. We have seen the positive results of keeping the same management in place from U14 to U18 so why not at U21.
Bringing in lads to manage them that have no involvement with the players before they come to U21 or having no connection with the senior panel seems to be the worst of both worlds at present. I dont think someone like Stephen Frampton or someone similar to the last 2 should get it next year but that is just my opinion.0 -
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Why does anyone think this year's 21s are better than last year's? To me, the 2010 Minor team was the best Minor team we had before last year.
Couple that with the fact that the 2011 Minor teams leading forward, Stephen Bennett, didn't start in this years team.
Not making excuses, they should still be making the final and giving Clare a challenge but just want to know at what point they became the best u21 team we ever had?0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »I dunno but I'm pretty sure I see the word imagine there, maybe just a poor turn of phrase though.
Just I would imagine is the kind of phrase that I think suggest you don't actually know, and with that in mind it would be unfair to speculate on the opinions of the selectors unless you are actually sure. Maybe you are, and as I said maybe it was just a mistake in the chosen word.
It's that sort of thing though that would make you question how much of this is objective anger at the setup, and how much is a personal grievance/dislike etc. It maybe that it's you have nothing against him on a personal level, but it does come across that way at times.
Especially like stuff like 'the golden team' and 'everyone said this and that'. Most people, players and managers, will have those who talk well of them and those who don't. I dunno that it does anything for your point of view to say things with an underlying 'I told you so' and keep talking about 'the decent skins'.
I don't see too many people (in fact basically nobody) who was please with this year but I'd like a bit of balance at the same time. My honest opinion is that is not being provided at the moment.
I think that people have a right to be angry. Personally speaking, I have nothing against Derek McGrath either - he is a very nice fella. I also have no inside knowledge of the squad set up and training. However - there are a number of pointers that show that it just isn't working.
- the stand out players this year were not DLS players, they were players with confidence coming from a successful schools or minor set up which had nothing to do with the present management, I'm thinkin Dunford, Gleason and de Burca;
- the guys who are closest to the manager or have most experience playing for him did not perform this year - I'm thinking Mahoney, Dillon, Moran, O Keeffe etc. This must be the most disappointing aspect to this year - after all if the management can't get performances from those guys, it is not a good sign;
- somebody said puke hurling, I agree, a desperate brand hurling was played this year;
- results, 3 x bad hammerings in the league, 1 x Munster championship, Wexford game lucky to lose by 3. We beat Dublin and Galway in the league, they have proven to be poor teams;
- In game decision making poor. Best decision all year - and the only one to give me confidence that things could change - taking off Dillon and Mahoney against Wexford which led to an immediate improvement;
- 3 year plan;
- U21s. Absolute disaster. The only team progressing well this year are the minors, a team which the present senior management have little or nothing to do with.
I respect the fact that De La Salle is a big school and lots of former pupils inclined to give Derek the benefit of the doubt but in the wider interest of Waterford hurling this is not good enough. Also - why are you looking for balance on an internet forum?.0 -
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did ahearne win a gameconditioned games wrote: »Tonight's result of Clare hammerng Cork who had earlier hammered us when we were supposed to have the best U21 team that we have ever assembled again highlights major problems we are having in maximising the talent that is available at this level.
We have reached 5 of the last 6 munster minor finals and have been producing good quality players up as far as under 18 but for whatever reason we haven't won a game at U21 since 2009 which means there is something wrong.
We had Fergal Hartley in 2011 and 2012 and had Peter Queally in 2013 and 2014. The last time we did ok at this level was 2009 when Shane Ahearn managed them. Cant remember who was there in 2010.
The results in the last 5 yrs has been
2010 WD 1.03 CK 1.16
2011 WD 1.16 Tipp 4.12
2012 WD 0.09 CL 2.22
2013 WD 0.17 CL 2.15
2014 WD 0.16 CK 3.16
No where near good enough. So where is it going wrong. Should there be some connection between the senior and U21 team i.e. in Clare Paul Kinnerk does the hurling training for the U21's and shares the senior training sessions with Davy. Also should there be a link between those who looked after the players when they were minor and now when they are U21. We have seen the positive results of keeping the same management in place from U14 to U18 so why not at U21.
Bringing in lads to manage them that have no involvement with the players before they come to U21 or having no connection with the senior panel seems to be the worst of both worlds at present. I dont think someone like Stephen Frampton or someone similar to the last 2 should get it next year but that is just my opinion.0 -
hurler on de ditch wrote: »did ahearne win a game
Beat Tipp. Put up a decent performance against Clare in the final but the better team won I felt0 -
Ye had a good side last year but unlucky to meet a very good Clare side.
Waterford were the only team to give Clare a right rattle last year. It was only in the last quarter clare put a bit of distance between the sides.
They then beat Tipp handy in Munstet final in Thurles, then beat Galway comfortably enough in All Ireland sf and walked the All Irl.0 -
Also - why are you looking for balance on an internet forum?.
Why not?
Before I say anymore, I am no fan of Davy's in fact I quite openly despise him to be honest.
My problem is generally here we tend to blame the manager solely and with an air of bias to a degree. It's always the managers fault. Justin wasn't good enough, Davy wasn't (some were for his record, but his critics were scathing, myself included), god knows Michael Ryan serious questions asked right up to the Kilkenny came, that result meant critics stayed quieter until he was sacked, and now Derek McGrath is getting dogs abuse.
So my problem is, while I understand why people are unhappy (I'm in the same boat. We all want to see Waterford win) it is always a straight up, manager is not good enough, here are all things he has done wrong and he has done nothing right.
The latter is not true. For any of them. They all become the villain in the end but what I would like from people, who I have no doubt despite how I may come across at times, are good hurling people who just want the best for Waterford is to say what we did that was good. If the positives out weigh the negatives, which no doubt they do so be it. But at least acknowledge that, and maybe focus on what we need to do next year to get back to the higher base we were at last year and beyond (which is ultimately where we were last year, and if Scully had stayed on a repeat of last year wouldn't have kept him his job).
I think we all know that Derek McGrath is going to be in charge next year. Even if the County Board got rid of him, after last year, does anyone hoestly believe anyone would take it? I doubt even the likes of Jimmy Meaney, Sean Power or Derek Lyons (who would all love the job) would take it as they'd be shooting themselves in the foot to some extent.
The point has been made, over and over again, that Derek McGrath/The County Board and any other perceived negative influences on the team should be removed but given we all know that for at least one more year that won't happen...what realistically do we think that we need to improve and how would people suggest about going about?
I mean something insightful now, not go back to pure Waterford style hurling because lads in all fairness anyone could tell you that. Offaly also need to go back to traditional style, off the cuff, Offaly hurling. Tony Keady and the like have said similar things about Galway but I don't think it tells you very much.
Ger Loughnane made me cringe when he started talking about Limerick's peformance against Tipp as 'traditional style Limerick hurling'. Said he commended their heart and their work ethic, but most of all, in what was probably the worst piece of analysis all year (eclipsing even Cyrill Farrell's regular best attempts) he said what won them the game was their 'spirit'. When I hear 15 v 15, toe to toe, off the cuff I think the same thing.
Orthodox formation may be the way to go selection wise, but there's far more to it than that, and there's been far more than that that has shaped the year and indeed every year that came before it.0 -
hurler on de ditch wrote: »lets wait another 51 years and have another 17 three year plans ,and for the sheer hell of it ,D mc Grath and Sir Alex Ferguson in the same post ffs ,,you really are taking the piss ,is D mc Grath your brother/Father/Son or sister perhaps ?
Exactly we've waited 51 years shur what's another 2. When it comes to waiting for the holy grail you need to build your empire from the start. These things need time. Derek needs time. Good young players coming through particularly the lads Derek had in school. He knows them inside out shur who better to get the best out of them. You just need to start having some faith. It will happen0 -
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Exactly we've waited 51 years shur what's another 2. When it comes to waiting for the holy grail you need to build your empire from the start. These things need time. Derek needs time. Good young players coming through particularly the lads Derek had in school. He knows them inside out shur who better to get the best out of them. You just need to start having some faith. It will happen
I'd say your laughing your head off when your typing those silly posts.0 -
conditioned games wrote: »I'd say your laughing your head off when your typing those silly posts.
You obviously didnt attend the fans night in the Mont Clair Hotel in Dublin last March. Derek is a man with a vision for Waterford. The co board wouldnt have him there in the first place otherwise. He has got a top class backroom team. William Maher is an All Ireland winner at minor level, Frank Flannery is a top coach and Dan the man well what can you say a legend of Waterford. He has drafted in Jim Greene aswell the mans experience and record in the game speaks for itself. Big things are happening for Waterford and its only around the corner. Sometimes you need to take a step backwards to take a step forward.0 -
The Waterford Under 21 team which played Cork included ten players who were on, or close to, the county senior team and three more who are on the extended senior panel. There is no way they should have lost to (never mind be hammered by) a mediocre Cork team which was taken to the cleaners by Clare tonight.
I am surprised nobody here has mentioned the Phil Fanning column in last week's News & Star where he wrote that when the under-21 team went back to the dressing room at half time in the Cork game, special bottles of a recovery drink with their names on them had been left out for the senior panel players only, and when the players got back to the dressing room after the game the senior players were immediately whisked away by minibus to Tramore for a recovery session in the sea.
To me this is an appalling indictment of Derek McGrath, who clearly regarded the under 21 game - and championship - as a nuisance when anyone who had the future of Waterford hurling at heart would have seen this year's under 21 championship as a great opportunity for an All-Ireland or Munster title which would have done wonders for the players concerned and for the Waterford hurling supporters.
This confirms reports that McGrath provided Peter Queally with little cooperation in the preparation of the team for the under 21 championship. I think it was Phil Fanning who wrote that the under 21 team never had a full game with all their senior players on board prior to the Cork game. This contrasts with the situation in Cork where JBM cooperated enthusiastically with the under 21 mentors.
During his series of events which sought to drum up support for his "Supporters of Waterford Hurling" (for that read "Supporters of Derek McGrath") earlier this year, McGrath said that he had a great working relationship with Queally. This clearly was not the case. Add in Queally's own shambolic, confused and negative tactical approach to the Cork under 21 game and it can be seen how a great opportunity ended up in an embarrassing debacle.0 -
You obviously didnt attend the fans night in the Mont Clair Hotel in Dublin last March. Derek is a man with a vision for Waterford. The co board wouldnt have him there in the first place otherwise. He has got a top class backroom team. William Maher is an All Ireland winner at minor level, Frank Flannery is a top coach and Dan the man well what can you say a legend of Waterford. He has drafted in Jim Greene aswell the mans experience and record in the game speaks for itself. Big things are happening for Waterford and its only around the corner. Sometimes you need to take a step backwards to take a step forward.
I swear to god.... on top of all this next you'll be telling us he's also on the brink of solving the Middle East crisis.0 -
I'm sorry but Clare tonight were sensational. They would have destroyed us if we got that far. They had everything, closed down Cadogan with ease, had pace and movement, could win ball, played whatever formation you like were fluid in what they did. No problem, no worries about 15 v 15 or sweeper or any of that rubbish. Tony Kelly waltzed all over the pitch. Also the crowd of 13,000 really got behind the team something that is absent in Waterford ,, support..
Talking of Phil Fanning in the News and Star where he stated Conor Lehane was still U-21 and where Paul Flynn stated Ray Barry did not feature in the Championship makes me wonder how much we should derive from local journalist comment..0 -
You obviously didnt attend the fans night in the Mont Clair Hotel in Dublin last March. Derek is a man with a vision for Waterford. The co board wouldnt have him there in the first place otherwise. He has got a top class backroom team. William Maher is an All Ireland winner at minor level, Frank Flannery is a top coach and Dan the man well what can you say a legend of Waterford. He has drafted in Jim Greene aswell the mans experience and record in the game speaks for itself. Big things are happening for Waterford and its only around the corner. Sometimes you need to take a step backwards to take a step forward.
Derek McGrath is clueless in terms of tactics , coaching , team selection at senior inter county level. Yet the McGrath supporters are trying to spin the idea that he is a coaching genius. The results don't lie.0 -
Face facts: We have a shambles at senior inter county hurling level. Paul Flynn's analysis of the Wexford game was the best by any journalist at either local or national level. It spelled out exactly the inadequacies of Waterford. Barry did not figure in the replay against Cork or against Wexford. He got 20 minutes against Cork in first game. Paul Flynn did say that he scored 1-3 against Kilkenny last year. Richie Foley and Jamie Nagle got the same type of treatment as Ray Barry. The problem that Waterford has got to face is that results do not lie. Lets face it: We need a new management team led by a coach with a strong record at senior inter county level.I'm sorry but Clare tonight were sensational. They would have destroyed us if we got that far. They had everything, closed down Cadogan with ease, had pace and movement, could win ball, played whatever formation you like were fluid in what they did. No problem, no worries about 15 v 15 or sweeper or any of that rubbish. Tony Kelly waltzed all over the pitch. Also the crowd of 13,000 really got behind the team something that is absent in Waterford ,, support..
Talking of Phil Fanning in the News and Star where he stated Conor Lehane was still U-21 and where Paul Flynn stated Ray Barry did not feature in the Championship makes me wonder how much we should derive from local journalist comment..
One journalist in a local paper has been talking up Derek McGrath's tactical nous. 95% of Waterford supporters would not agree. In fact supporters are laughing at it.0 -
Derek McGrath is clueless in terms of tactics , coaching , team selection at senior inter county level. Yet the McGrath supporters are trying to spin the idea that he is a coaching genius. The results don't lie.
Derek's only downfall here is that he is a realist. He acknowledges where we are at as a team and as a county. Unfortunately some of the nay-sayers like yourself cannot see it. He is in the process of piecing together a system to bring the county forward. Once these young players develop and are ingrained into this system the good times will start to roll again. There is no doubt about that. These were always going to be a testing few years for Waterford and derek was always going to take the brunt of it. He knew that coming in. There is no quick fix. Like I say he is man with a vision. Its a 3 year plan. We are well on the road. Have faith and patience, things will come good for us.0 -
Clare won an All Ireland with a glorified U-21 team. I have nothing personal against Derek McGrath. He lacks the capacity to take Waterford forward. Earlier in the year I posted that he needed to bring in a top coach from outside the county as he lacked the skills necessary to get the best out of this team. My fears were well justified.Derek's only downfall here is that he is a realist. He acknowledges where we are at as a team and as a county. Unfortunately some of the nay-sayers like yourself cannot see it. He is in the process of piecing together a system to bring the county forward. Once these young players develop and are ingrained into this system the good times will start to roll again. There is no doubt about that. These were always going to be a testing few years for Waterford and derek was always going to take the brunt of it. He knew that coming in. There is no quick fix. Like I say he is man with a vision. Its a 3 year plan. We are well on the road. Have faith and patience, things will come good for us.
He may have a vision as you term it. However it is a false vision. The county has been relegated and has failed badly in the championship. Forget about the three year plan. It is just an excuse to buy time. The man has no philosophy of hurling. Whether you agreed with Gerald McCarthy or Justin McCarthy or not, they unlike Derek McGrath had a vision and a distinctive style of hurling which was hugely effective. It was free flowing and skilful.
Contrast the style of hurling played under Justin McCarthy with negative, sterile offerings of Waterford at present.0 -
I'm sorry but Clare tonight were sensational. They would have destroyed us if we got that far. They had everything, closed down Cadogan with ease, had pace and movement, could win ball, played whatever formation you like were fluid in what they did. No problem, no worries about 15 v 15 or sweeper or any of that rubbish. Tony Kelly waltzed all over the pitch. Also the crowd of 13,000 really got behind the team something that is absent in Waterford ,, support..
Talking of Phil Fanning in the News and Star where he stated Conor Lehane was still U-21 and where Paul Flynn stated Ray Barry did not feature in the Championship makes me wonder how much we should derive from local journalist comment..
I though Paul Flynn's analysis was excellent and showed real insight. At least Fanning sometimes has the b*lls to challenge the status quo.
However, the worst of the lot on the scene is that guy Thomas McCarthy. The guy hasn't a clue, has no knowledge of hurling bar stats and has no feel for the game whatsoever.
Basically he's just a fan with a pen.0 -
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Clare won an All Ireland with a glorified U-21 team. I have nothing personal against Derek McGrath. He lacks the capacity to take Waterford forward. Earlier in the year I posted that he needed to bring in a top coach from outside the county as he lacked the skills necessary to get the best out of this team. My fears were well justified.
He may have a vision as you term it. However it is a false vision. The county has been relegated and has failed badly in the championship. Forget about the three year plan. It is just an excuse to buy time. The man has no philosophy of hurling. Whether you agreed with Gerald McCarthy or Justin McCarthy or not, they unlike Derek McGrath had a vision and a distinctive style of hurling which was hugely effective. It was free flowing and skilful.
Contrast the style of hurling played under Justin McCarthy with negative, sterile offerings of Waterford at present.
Those Clare u21 players came out of their underage system further down the road than of our players in terms of development, that is not Derek's fault. That group nearly always had the upper hand over our group at minor and u21 level aswell. It is unrealistic to expect All-Ireland success as quickly as they had.
With regard to a top coach from outside the county, Frank Flannery, a Cork man is rated as being as good as what is out there. Who do you suggest?
Contrasting the Justin and Gerald eras to the current setup is not comparing like with like, Those men had some incredibly gifted players at their disposal. Some of which the likes I doubt we'll see again in this lifetime.
The reason Waterford were relegated from 1A is because we were the poorest team in the division this year. Face facts. The last 2 years we avoided a relegation play-off by default on both occasions. The first year because we met Dublin in a game where they were already in a relegation play-off so fielded their second team against us. We won 2 games this year, the same weve won the previous 2 years. Only difference was this year we found ourselves in a relegation final and lost it. Because we werent good enough. Lets just accept where we are next year in 1B and see if were good enough to get out of it.
Yes the championship was our most disappointing championship in a long time, but these few lean years were always going to happen. All the players we have lost over the past few years, the young lads are coming through now but didnt come through in time for us to be competing for All Ireland semi finals every year. Prior to 5 or 6 years ago at underage we were not competitive for many years. At the moment we are seeing the effects of that. But things will turn. Derek will be there next year and the year after there is no question about that. And you are right about the 3 year term, it is only to buy time. Because time is what is needed for us to get back to the top level where we belong.0 -
Face facts: We have a shambles at senior inter county hurling level. Paul Flynn's analysis of the Wexford game was the best by any journalist at either local or national level. It spelled out exactly the inadequacies of Waterford. Barry did not figure in the replay against Cork or against Wexford. He got 20 minutes against Cork in first game. Paul Flynn did say that he scored 1-3 against Kilkenny last year. Richie Foley and Jamie Nagle got the same type of treatment as Ray Barry. The problem that Waterford has got to face is that results do not lie. Lets face it: We need a new management team led by a coach with a strong record at senior inter county level.
One journalist in a local paper has been talking up Derek McGrath's tactical nous. 95% of Waterford supporters would not agree. In fact supporters are laughing at it.
Is Paul Flynns article available online anywhere?0 -
I am no fan of Derek's tactics, in fact I hate them, but Waterford has been on the slippery slope for awhile now, dating back to even before the All Ireland final hammering. Simple fact is we don't have the forwards to compete and there is nothing Derek or Ryan or anyone else can do about it... How many of Waterford's forwards would get on the Cork team this year, or the Kilkenny, Tipp, Care or even Limerick team? Our two best forwards this year were young lads, out of school a few months, one only gone 19 and the other 19 or 20 and their first year playing senior. We don't have the Flynn's, McGrath's, Mullane's, Shanahan's or Prendergast in his prime who can fight and win their own ball and put up big scores. Kilkenny were off the boil last year and again the reason we didn't put them away is because we didn't have the forwards to do so. I put my hand up to any lad who gives his time and effort playing for Waterford but unfortunately there are a few lads who have been around the team for the last 2 or three years (some of them are still relatively young) but they are just not good enough if we want to be competing for Munster and All Ireland titles. There are promising young lads coming along and we all know who they are and three or four of them are forwards with hurling and importantly physique. They may be good minor hurlers but that doesn't guarantee that they will be anything better than what we have at the moment when they step up. The gulf between minor and senior is massive. These lads have to be given a chance to get up to speed of senior hurling and more importantly have to develop physically.0
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I am no fan of Derek's tactics, in fact I hate them, but Waterford has been on the slippery slope for awhile now, dating back to even before the All Ireland final hammering. Simple fact is we don't have the forwards to compete and there is nothing Derek or Ryan or anyone else can do about it... How many of Waterford's forwards would get on the Cork team this year, or the Kilkenny, Tipp, Care or even Limerick team? Our two best forwards this year were young lads, out of school a few months, one only gone 19 and the other 19 or 20 and their first year playing senior. We don't have the Flynn's, McGrath's, Mullane's, Shanahan's or Prendergast in his prime who can fight and win their own ball and put up big scores. Kilkenny were off the boil last year and again the reason we didn't put them away is because we didn't have the forwards to do so. I put my hand up to any lad who gives his time and effort playing for Waterford but unfortunately there are a few lads who have been around the team for the last 2 or three years (some of them are still relatively young) but they are just not good enough if we want to be competing for Munster and All Ireland titles. There are promising young lads coming along and we all know who they are and three or four of them are forwards with hurling and importantly physique. They may be good minor hurlers but that doesn't guarantee that they will be anything better than what we have at the moment when they step up. The gulf between minor and senior is massive. These lads have to be given a chance to get up to speed of senior hurling and more importantly have to develop physically.
Gleeson somewhere. That's it.0 -
Face facts: We have a shambles at senior inter county hurling level. Paul Flynn's analysis of the Wexford game was the best by any journalist at either local or national level. It spelled out exactly the inadequacies of Waterford. Barry did not figure in the replay against Cork or against Wexford. He got 20 minutes against Cork in first game. Paul Flynn did say that he scored 1-3 against Kilkenny last year. Richie Foley and Jamie Nagle got the same type of treatment as Ray Barry. The problem that Waterford has got to face is that results do not lie. Lets face it: We need a new management team led by a coach with a strong record at senior inter county level.
One journalist in a local paper has been talking up Derek McGrath's tactical nous. 95% of Waterford supporters would not agree. In fact supporters are laughing at it.
Ye the article was good. I agree that Ray Barry should have played. Up until the Wexford game I'd say Barry scored more points from play per minute on pitch than anyone else. I would have also played Ritchie Foley but I would agree with McGrath on 18 of the 20 players selected for the Wexford game. Flynn asked in his article why was Jamie Nagle not used, well a couple of weeks ago he struggled to find a place for Nagle himself in a match preview. Not a fan of the current manager but not everything he does is wrong. Why doesn't somebody tell Dunford, Gleeson and de Burke that it is a shambles .. they get on with it some of the other players should too.
If you want facts:
JBM first Championship game as manager lost 1-8 to 3-18 at home to Limerick
Derek McGrath first Championship game drew with JBM's Cork0 -
Cadogan is one of the best young forwards in the country this year and JBM hadn't him starting as an 18 or 19 year old for Cork. I couldn't imagine JBM having Gleeson starting for Cork. Probably on the panel and rightly so..0
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Mountainlad wrote: »Why does anyone think this year's 21s are better than last year's? To me, the 2010 Minor team was the best Minor team we had before last year.
Couple that with the fact that the 2011 Minor teams leading forward, Stephen Bennett, didn't start in this years team.
Not making excuses, they should still be making the final and giving Clare a challenge but just want to know at what point they became the best u21 team we ever had?
Look maybe you are right and the performances of the 2011 Minor teams may be looked at with a degree of rose tinted glasses,
Firstly the bad
in the Munster final Clare could have beaten them by whatever they wanted, the gulf in standard was huge, admittedly Jake Dillon had a night mare on the frees, but for a few late goals to make it some ay respectable in truth we got beaten out the gate (I think our only decent performer on the day was breatnach from Ring)
In fairness we beat Kilkenny well enough
In the Semi Final against Dublin we are again beat out the gate after 20 minutes, current Dublin senior Footballer Cormac Costello scoring 4-02 as part of a team that also contained Ciaran Kilkenny, in all honesty it was a real bad day for us, but the lads did fight gamely to the finish and put a better look on the scoreboard once again..
The good
We actually beat Tipperary, Limerick and Kilkenny that year, I would love to know how many of that Tipperary minor team from 2011 were playing on this years U21 team that brought Clare to extra time (I know Current senior Jason Forde was on that team in 2011), So i suppose the toss could be argued either way.
But look we had 10 seniors, in my opinion if the management team saw so little them as mac dara macdonnacha was so eager to tell everyone after the game, they should have just let them go out and hurl and no try to stick to a system on their first day out.
after last night get beaten by cork was a blessing in disguise0 -
Jamie Nagle's lack of pace got exposed badly, when he is turned he is gone, for a half back he wont catch the ball (always uses the hurley - look at the league against kilkenny tried to bat a ball down to himself, straight to Richie Hogan - over the bar), also he is too ponderous striking the ball and gets blocked down too much... I think his day could be done.
Ray Barry had a real tough outing when he came on against Cork, he was beaten out to every ball, but he is young, has potential and may have better days ahead, he is a great striker and maybe out around the wing would have suited him better, but we just had better options than him out there.
Richie Foley has had really bad run wit injuries, he did seem to lack composure this year and can do crazy things when in possession and turn it over needlessly, like he can be caught in two minds, with hopefully an injury free run he can have alot to offer again.
I dont think any player would have had a huge impact on our performances0 -
We dont have the players anymore, we have lost Tony, Dan, Flynn, Ken, Mullane, Kelly in recent times, I dont think any of those players have been replaced with players of a similar caliber,
This year we had super debuts from deburca, gleeson and Dunford, maybe they could go a way to replacing the above, add in Colm roche, paddy curran, the bennetts, a fit stephen daniels and dara fives, maybe we could go a way to coming back.
the more i think of it, we dont have the players anymore, maybe that accounts for the negative tactics, maybe mcgrathj doesnt have the confidnce in them i dont know, but I think we need a dose of reality.
currently we have loads of good hurlers at the same level but no stars0 -
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Giveitfong wrote: »The Waterford Under 21 team which played Cork included ten players who were on, or close to, the county senior team and three more who are on the extended senior panel. There is no way they should have lost to (never mind be hammered by) a mediocre Cork team which was taken to the cleaners by Clare tonight.
I am surprised nobody here has mentioned the Phil Fanning column in last week's News & Star where he wrote that when the under-21 team went back to the dressing room at half time in the Cork game, special bottles of a recovery drink with their names on them had been left out for the senior panel players only, and when the players got back to the dressing room after the game the senior players were immediately whisked away by minibus to Tramore for a recovery session in the sea.
To me this is an appalling indictment of Derek McGrath, who clearly regarded the under 21 game - and championship - as a nuisance when anyone who had the future of Waterford hurling at heart would have seen this year's under 21 championship as a great opportunity for an All-Ireland or Munster title which would have done wonders for the players concerned and for the Waterford hurling supporters.
This confirms reports that McGrath provided Peter Queally with little cooperation in the preparation of the team for the under 21 championship. I think it was Phil Fanning who wrote that the under 21 team never had a full game with all their senior players on board prior to the Cork game. This contrasts with the situation in Cork where JBM cooperated enthusiastically with the under 21 mentors.
During his series of events which sought to drum up support for his "Supporters of Waterford Hurling" (for that read "Supporters of Derek McGrath") earlier this year, McGrath said that he had a great working relationship with Queally. This clearly was not the case. Add in Queally's own shambolic, confused and negative tactical approach to the Cork under 21 game and it can be seen how a great opportunity ended up in an embarrassing debacle.
I have been in dressing rooms were senior inter county players had there recovery drinks, protein, rubs etc whilst the rest watched on... that was just there thing and I accepted it, it was Peter Queallys responsibility to do it for the rest not mcGraths.
I do hear what your are saying it is a really bad reflection on how the team was run, obvious there was no communication or the same level of thought or preparation. but McGrath made sure his guys were looked after no matter what, what else would you expect him to do? its not his fault it wasnt done for anyone else0
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