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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1
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I have been in dressing rooms were senior inter county players had there recovery drinks, protein, rubs etc whilst the rest watched on... that was just there thing and I accepted it, it was Peter Queallys responsibility to do it for the rest not mcGraths.
I do hear what your are saying it is a really bad reflection on how the team was run, obvious there was no communication or the same level of thought or preparation. but McGrath made sure his guys were looked after no matter what, what else would you expect him to do? its not his fault it wasnt done for anyone else
Here here. The McGrath bashing on here has gone beyond ridiculous. People scrutinising and looking for holes in every minor thing hes done at this stage. Ive been a little over-zealous in my defense of him in the past few posts, admittedly with tongue in cheek at times, but Ive just been trying to cut the guy some slack. Im not a fan of the style of play more so than the next man but Ive yet to see any poster name any other manager they think should be in his place (besides bloody donal o'grady). Its been a completely one-sided debate when some people need to get real about where were at. Ive no issue with people having an opinions but bawling down and disrespecting anyone else who tries to look for merits and positives. For some its plain that theres personal grievances against the man and thats just pathetic. Its not a balanced debate and for me its gone beyond the point of enjoying participating in this board. It seems to be the same with every manager no matter who it is. We had Justin, Davy, Skully, now McGrath.
Ive decided its not for me here anymore. Ive realised im better off continuing to devote my time and energy into the club and acting as our co. board representative, and my grievances as always I will be put forward at the next meeting, in person, as myself. Thanks to all the genuine posters for the good debate and banter. but for the trolls I can only say best of luck but nothing will ever be solved here behind a username.0 -
Here here. The McGrath bashing on here has gone beyond ridiculous. People scrutinising and looking for holes in every minor thing hes done at this stage. Ive been a little over-zealous in my defense of him in the past few posts, admittedly with tongue in cheek at times, but Ive just been trying to cut the guy some slack. Im not a fan of the style of play more so than the next man but Ive yet to see any poster name any other manager they think should be in his place (besides bloody donal o'grady). Its been a completely one-sided debate when some people need to get real about where were at. Ive no issue with people having an opinions but bawling down and disrespecting anyone else who tries to look for merits and positives. For some its plain that theres personal grievances against the man and thats just pathetic. Its not a balanced debate and for me its gone beyond the point of enjoying participating in this board. It seems to be the same with every manager no matter who it is. We had Justin, Davy, Skully, now McGrath.
Ive decided its not for me here anymore. Ive realised im better off continuing to devote my time and energy into the club and acting as our co. board representative, and my grievances as always I will be put forward at the next meeting, in person, as myself. Thanks to all the genuine posters for the good debate and banter. but for the trolls I can only say best of luck but nothing will ever be solved here behind a username.
We'll hold you to your word. It's not the first time you said something similar, closed your account and reappeared talking the same tripe.0 -
bull**** ,any manager can be like cody ,,as he said himself ,he does not train the team,he does not coach them ,but more importantly he picks with a good bit of help and honesty a group of players to represent kk who in turn will do everything to repay his faith in them ,all about being honest ,fair,and above all having the balls to live and die by the sword ,most managers can adopt his policies and i believe they do when they are picking the panel but they lose their own minds through fear of failure as opposed to the genuine opportunity to make a change ,make Waterford hurling history ,seize the day ,not fall on your own swordTo come back to something another poster said earlier, I don't think Cork are far ahead of us, if at all, but the influence JBM has on that panel has given some fairly ordinary players an incredible amount of belief and has raised their performances by some 20% I would say. But JBM is a legend (and a gentleman I might add) and I don't think we can compare Michael Ryan to him. The fact is that we have never produced a manager as good as JBM in Waterford and he is a once in a generation manager. It's like Brian Cody, it's unreasonable to expect others to get to that standard or be held to it in such a short space of time.0 -
Personalised recovery drinks? Did they have a packed lunch with the crusts cut off and a surprise ready for them too. **** sake, talk about feeding egos and mollycoddling! Will Derek be taking the boys on another warm weather training camp next year? The hard graft they put in on that trip seriously stood to them when they were all running back to crowd out the backs, can't wait to see the ingenious waste of cash they come up with next.0
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Your definition of a troll is somebody posting here who justifiably criticises the shambles presided over by Derek McGrath. No doubt I would qualify under your definition of a troll. Not that I care!!! Waterford hurling at senior inter county level fossilised in 70s, 80s, and 90s precisely because of the attitude of the decent skins who ignored the inadequacies of coaching and team management and ran with the mantra of the "players are not there". It was pure and utter rubbish then, as it is now. Of course the mantra should have been "the management is not there". This was proven with the advent of Gerald and Justin McCarthyHere here. The McGrath bashing on here has gone beyond ridiculous. People scrutinising and looking for holes in every minor thing hes done at this stage. Ive been a little over-zealous in my defense of him in the past few posts, admittedly with tongue in cheek at times, but Ive just been trying to cut the guy some slack. Im not a fan of the style of play more so than the next man but Ive yet to see any poster name any other manager they think should be in his place (besides bloody donal o'grady). Its been a completely one-sided debate when some people need to get real about where were at. Ive no issue with people having an opinions but bawling down and disrespecting anyone else who tries to look for merits and positives. For some its plain that theres personal grievances against the man and thats just pathetic. Its not a balanced debate and for me its gone beyond the point of enjoying participating in this board. It seems to be the same with every manager no matter who it is. We had Justin, Davy, Skully, now McGrath.
Ive decided its not for me here anymore. Ive realised im better off continuing to devote my time and energy into the club and acting as our co. board representative, and my grievances as always I will be put forward at the next meeting, in person, as myself. Thanks to all the genuine posters for the good debate and banter. but for the trolls I can only say best of luck but nothing will ever be solved here behind a username.
The Mc Grath supporters want to close down debate.0 -
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Your definition of a troll is somebody posting here who justifiably criticises the shambles presided over by Derek McGrath. No doubt I would qualify under you definition of a troll. Not that I care!!! Waterford hurling at senior inter county level fossilised in 70s, 80s, and 90s precisely because of the attitude of the decent skins who ignored the inadequacies of coaching and team management and ran with the mantra of the "players are not there". It was pure and utter rubbish as it is now. Of course the mantra should have been "the management is not there". This was proven with the advent of Gerald and Justin McCarthy
The Mc rath supporters want to close down debate.
I'd challenge the claim that stating the same thing over and over again is debate now to be honest, not that I am a McGrath supporter.0 -
That was the mantra in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Gerald McCarthy and Justin McCarthy arrived and lo and behold there was a big turn around. Nobody here was expecting Waterford to win the All Ireland this year. However the team preparation was hopelessly inadequate.We dont have the players anymore, we have lost Tony, Dan, Flynn, Ken, Mullane, Kelly in recent times, I dont think any of those players have been replaced with players of a similar caliber,
This year we had super debuts from deburca, gleeson and Dunford, maybe they could go a way to replacing the above, add in Colm roche, paddy curran, the bennetts, a fit stephen daniels and dara fives, maybe we could go a way to coming back.
the more i think of it, we dont have the players anymore, maybe that accounts for the negative tactics, maybe mcgrathj doesnt have the confidnce in them i dont know, but I think we need a dose of reality.
currently we have loads of good hurlers at the same level but no stars
We had over weigh players incapable of running, wrong team selection, a deterioration in skill levels since 2013, an unfit team , negative tactics and no pattern of play. Putting it quite simply Derek McGrath has no philosophy of hurling in contrast to people like JBM, Justin McCarthy and Gerald McCarthy who favour free flowing hurling. There now strong rumours of players walking away because because of disillusionment with team preparation. Hopefully this will not happen. However hurling in Waterford at senior inter county level is in crisis. The County Board had better sort it quickly!!!0 -
What is your solution?Mountainlad wrote: »I'd challenge the claim that stating the same thing over and over again is debate now to be honest, not that I am a McGrath supporter.0 -
That was the mantra in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Gerald McCarthy and Justin McCarthy arrived and lo and behold there was a big turn around. Nobody here was expecting Waterford to win the All Ireland this year. However the team preparation was hopelessly inadequate.
We had over weigh players incapable of running, wrong team selection, a deterioration in skill levels since 2013, an unfit team , negative tactics and no pattern of play. Putting it quite simply Derek McGrath has no philosophy of hurling in contrast to people like JBM, Justin McCarthy and Gerald McCarthy who favour free flowing hurling. There now strong rumours of players walking away because because of disillusionment with team preparation. Hopefully this will not happen. However hurling in Waterford at senior inter county level is in crisis. The County Board had better sort it quickly!!!
So you are saying the 70's, 80's and 90's had nothing to do with the players?
Look I wasn't happy with this year either but no-one can tell me that the present crop are a patch on the great team that we saw last decade, that's not saying some of them can't but some of the lads in their early 20's who were there under Davy would want to be delivering soon, the new lads this year didn't take pissing time to bed in, I don't think some of them will do it as no matter how committed they aren't good enough.
Now you are saying that some players want to leave because yet another manager isn't good enough, leave them, we can't blame managers forever. Time to piss or get off the pot.
What overweight players were incapable of running? To be honest I don't think we were fit enough but I think your comments are a bit overboard.
How come no one seems to mention the positives from this year, there were some, we unearthed 3 ready to go inter county players that are potential stars, some people way to focused on the negative.
Everyone has had their say about McGrath, the seasons over, it was ****, they can all take some of the blame, give the man a chance next year he will be there in charge anyway0 -
Now you are saying that some players want to leave because yet another manager isn't good enough, leave them, we can't blame managers forever. Time to piss or get off the pot.
But these players were quite happy with Ryan last year. It's only a select few players that instigated the Ryan upheaval. Maybe it's these players that should piss or get off the pot and take Mcgrath with them as they haven't shown anything this year that would make them be a loss.0 -
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I wasn't on here last year, but when Robocop decided to throw his toys out of the pram
I thought I'd go back and try to find comments from post the Kilkenny championship defeat.
Now, at the time I was nowhere being convinced about the set up but, my God, the difference in comments then is astounding, among pro and anti Ryan guys together.
The sense of pride in the performance on the night is clear to be seen with everyone looking forward to 2014 and commenting on the displays of Soky, Connors, Lawlor, Moran, Dillon, Brick, Fives, Barry and Barron etc.
The general consensus then was that, with certain reservations about sideline decisions on the night, we were going in the right direction and that we went out, showed real pride in the jersey and had a right cut.
Now for one reason or another, this year none the above guys have been anywhere near as prominent or important for us. Even allowing for injury to a couple of the lads, all of the younger lads above should have been seen to progress to the next level and, at least for the experienced lads, maintain the level that they were at.
None of them have!
The question is why not?0 -
So you are saying the 70's, 80's and 90's had nothing to do with the players?
Look I wasn't happy with this year either but no-one can tell me that the present crop are a patch on the great team that we saw last decade, that's not saying some of them can't but some of the lads in their early 20's who were there under Davy would want to be delivering soon, the new lads this year didn't take pissing time to bed in, I don't think some of them will do it as no matter how committed they aren't good enough.
Now you are saying that some players want to leave because yet another manager isn't good enough, leave them, we can't blame managers forever. Time to piss or get off the pot.
What overweight players were incapable of running? To be honest I don't think we were fit enough but I think your comments are a bit overboard.
How come no one seems to mention the positives from this year, there were some, we unearthed 3 ready to go inter county players that are potential stars, some people way to focused on the negative.
Everyone has had their say about McGrath, the seasons over, it was ****, they can all take some of the blame, give the man a chance next year he will be there in charge anyway
He will be there for 2 more years of the 3 year plan. After that there is the bonus year if we put in a decent effort in a championship game between now and then. The De la Salle - Ballygunner circle- jerk that is the present set- up has to end in the wider interest of Waterford hurling.0 -
Alf Tupper wrote: »I wasn't on here last year, but when Robocop decided to throw his toys out of the pram
I thought I'd go back and try to find comments from post the Kilkenny championship defeat.
Now, at the time I was nowhere being convinced about the set up but, my God, the difference in comments then is astounding, among pro and anti Ryan guys together.
The sense of pride in the performance on the night is clear to be seen with everyone looking forward to 2014 and commenting on the displays of Soky, Connors, Lawlor, Moran, Dillon, Brick, Fives, Barry and Barron etc.
The general consensus then was that, with certain reservations about sideline decisions on the night, we were going in the right direction and that we went out, showed real pride in the jersey and had a right cut.
Now for one reason or another, this year none the above guys have been anywhere near as prominent or important for us. Even allowing for injury to a couple of the lads, all of the younger lads above should have been seen to progress to the next level and, at least for the experienced lads, maintain the level that they were at.
None of them have!
The question is why not?
+1....I taught they would really push on and challenge for the league....and possibly an all Ireland semi final (taught they were a bit off winning anything just yet!!).......the way it is now....they will do extremely well to get out of div 2 or whatever its called next year0 -
He will be there for 2 more years of the 3 year plan. After that there is the bonus year if we put in a decent effort in a championship game between now and then. The De la Salle - Ballygunner circle- jerk that is the present set- up has to end in the wider interest of Waterford hurling.
Another fact that I found on my travels back through last year's posts was very interesting.
Foe one league match, Shane Sullivan, Paudie Mahony and Brian Sullivan were actually dropped. Now at the the time the general consensus agin on here was that it was the correct decision.
Fast forward a year and see the difference.
The conspiracy theorists could have a field day0 -
But these players were quite happy with Ryan last year. It's only a select few players that instigated the Ryan upheaval. Maybe it's these players that should piss or get off the pot and take Mcgrath with them as they haven't shown anything this year that would make them be a loss.
Actually in hindsight Ryan did a good job last year. I was not in favour of getting rid of him but when it happened i accepted mcgrath would be there for a while. I don't like the way we play but the reality is we don't have the players at the moment. We have some nice hurlers but we lack aggression and a hunger for goals. The lack of goals was an issue from the start of the league. Maybe a better style of play would have provided more scores but that's a maybe.0 -
Actually in hindsight Ryan did a good job last year. I was not in favour of getting rid of him but when it happened i accepted mcgrath would be there for a while. I don't like the way we play but the reality is we don't have the players at the moment. We have some nice hurlers but we lack aggression and a hunger for goals. The lack of goals was an issue from the start of the league. Maybe a better style of play would have provided more scores but that's a maybe.
usually actually playing with more than two forwards helps as well!!!0 -
tomwaterford wrote: »usually actually playing with more than two forwards helps as well!!!
Maybe... I guess mcgrath was more concerned about conceding goals at the other end. Those beatings in the league must have hurt. I have to admit i don't see us winning anything for a while and the biggest disappointment for me was the u21 we should have being going out to win that this year at that level i though we would have been competitive...0 -
I think we will be playing division 2 league hurling for a while...0
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So you are saying the 70's, 80's and 90's had nothing to do with the players?
Stop now!
W did have the players back in those decades but, just as now, we were riddled with club politics.
It's just sickening now to see the whole farce repeating itself.
I actually thought we had seen the last of it when Gerald took over.
But, plus ça change......0 -
Alf Tupper wrote: »Stop now!
W did have the players back in those decades but, just as now, we were riddled with club politics.
It's just sickening now to see the whole farce repeating itself.
I actually thought we had seen the last of it when Gerald took over.
But, plus ça change......
Enlighten me on the club politics.. You've whipped up some storm in fairness..0 -
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Does anybody know what is the situation regarding the county minors and the club fixtures for the All Ireland semi final clashing?0
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Alf Tupper wrote: »Stop now!
W did have the players back in those decades but, just as now, we were riddled with club politics.
It's just sickening now to see the whole farce repeating itself.
I actually thought we had seen the last of it when Gerald took over.
But, plus ça change......
We had the players to do what? win a match? because we couldnt even do that most of the time.
Of course no other county had to deal with the club politics we had too, it must have been repeated beatings and starving of these players for them to be held back that much.
Fact is we produced a freakish team in the 50's that was a total outlier that won an All-Ireland, Over the next few decades we returned to the norm which was getting hockeyed at most levels (senior, underage, club, schools you name it) whilst we convinced ourselves we were a hurling county. We were the poor relation in Munster in both codes.
We have ony established ourselves as a proper hurling county in the last decade with the consistent work in Clubs, primary schools and secondary schools, that's why we are seeing players emerge for clubs all over the county as opposed to Mt.Sion, Ballygunnar and Lismore like it used to be when I was growing up.
The two strongest club teams in the county at present and DLS and Ballygunnar, end of, that has nothing to do with politics that is just the facts.0 -
1club1county wrote: »Does anybody know what is the situation regarding the county minors and the club fixtures for the All Ireland semi final clashing?
As far as i know those clashing fixtures were changed0 -
thegambler2 wrote: »I think we will be playing division 2 league hurling for a while...
Doesn't seem to have hindered the progress of Limerick and Wexford.0 -
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We had the players to do what? win a match? because we couldnt even do that most of the time.
Of course no other county had to deal with the club politics we had too, it must have been repeated beatings and starving of these players for them to be held back that much.
Fact is we produced a freakish team in the 50's that was a total outlier that won an All-Ireland, Over the next few decades we returned to the norm which was getting hockeyed at most levels (senior, underage, club, schools you name it) whilst we convinced ourselves we were a hurling county. We were the poor relation in Munster in both codes.
We have ony established ourselves as a proper hurling county in the last decade with the consistent work in Clubs, primary schools and secondary schools, that's why we are seeing players emerge for clubs all over the county as opposed to Mt.Sion, Ballygunnar and Lismore like it used to be when I was growing up.
The two strongest club teams in the county at present and DLS and Ballygunnar, end of, that has nothing to do with politics that is just the facts.
I think you are glossing over a lot of history there to be honest.
For what it's worth, my read on our history was that up until the 1920s, large parts of the City were hostile to the Gaelic Revival, the Sinn Fein movement, and the like. I'm sure the GAA in the City was equally disadvantaged. The City was a Redmondite hotbed and reports of the violence around the 1918 bye election give a good flavour of the atmosphere in the City. If you read the reports of the Bureau of Military history, it is notable that Sinn Feiners were afraid to walk out on their own as they were afraid of being attacked. De Valera didn't win a seat here either in the next general election and is said to have remarked that he wouldn't rest until there was grass growing on the Quay in Waterford City.
Willie Walsh after whom the Sportsfield is named, the famous referee, was officer in command of the local IRA, I am sure that a large portion of the City's population would have felt alienated from the GAA as well. And there was a ruckus over usage of the Sportsfield by other sports around 1912 which I think led Kilkenny and Wexford teams to boycott the ground.
At this time there is no major evidence of any GAA presence among the population of the City and the dominant club in the county at this time were Meaghers who hailed from out Ballygunner, Gaultier way.
So the city I don't think had much of a GAA tradition and while hurling was played on the borders with Cork and Tipperary in places like Mocollop and Ballyduff, football would have been more dominant in the rest of county as evidenced by a Dungarvan team winning our sole Munster football title in 1898.
I am inclined to believe that that background largely explains our pitiful performance in the years up to independence. Until 1926 the only team we had beaten in Munster hurling was Kerry and in that year we defeated Clare and qualified for our first Munster final. We were hammered by Tipperary.
The key turning point in the City was I think the arrival of Brother Malone at Mount Sion, though I suspect there was a plan to Gaelicise the City anyway. Mount Sion started to churn out brilliant hurlers, first Locky Byrne, then John Keane. By repute Mount Sion became the school that Gaels sent the boys to and De La Salle remained the school for Royalists. Anyway by 1929 Waterford had improved enough to win the minor All Ireland and by 1931 were good enough to draw with Cork in Clonmel in the 1931 Munster SHC Final. Locky Byrne played in both the minor and senior final that day. That was the great Cork team that defeated Kilkenny in the second replay of the Final that year.
By 1934 we had won two All Ireland juniors, no mean feat and by 1938 we won our first Munster senior helped by the Jimmy Cooney controversy that did for Tipperary. We should have added the All Ireland, but that came on a great day in 1948 where we did the senior and minor double. That was an old team though and we fell back again until the mid 50s when a team backboned by Harty Cup winners from Mount Sion stormed the hurling world. In fairness that team should have won more than one All Ireland but it had a really long tail and was competitive until at least 1967.
Bear in mind that at about the time this team drew to a close Waterford FC was the utterly dominant soccer team in the land at a time when Irish people went to Irish soccer matches. Although I was a hurling nut I remember all the talk around the town amongst the youngsters was about European Cup games against Honved and Manchester United and very little of it was about hurling. I think the first soccer match in Lansdowne road was when Waterford played United who were European champions at the time.
At the same time the dominance of Erin's Own and then Mount Sion had I think sucked the life out of the championship here. Then as happened with similar schools all over the country, Mount Sion went into terminal decline in the 1970s and this combined with many of the most athletic chaps in the city preferring soccer turned off the tap of hurlers from the school. The school actually won a schools soccer All Ireland in the 80s.
Soccer then went into terminal decline after the advent of Match of the Day, and there were a few stirrings on the hurling front in the 80s, but there were a couple of events in the 1990s that turned hurling on its head again. First and obviously were the crop of underage hurlers and particularly the ones from the West. Mount Sion had no representative on the minor team (managed by Jim Greene coincidentally, which might give conspiracy theorists here pause for thought) and Tony Browne was the only one on the under 21. Again the influence of a Christian Brother was vital, this time Brother Dormer in Lismore.
The other key thing that happened in the 1990s was that Ballygunner now having a huge population threw down the gauntlet to Mount Sion. Mount Sion had become very complacent (allied to the difficulty with the school) and hadn't won a minor from 1969 to 1989 and an under 21 from 1974 to 1985 and were riven by the Roanmore split, but could still tip away and win a championship every other year. That certainty disappeared when Ballygunner relied on the bye law and took the 1992 final to Dungarvan and beat Mount Sion. By the end of the decade there was real poison between the two and each upped their game to get the better of each other.
Eventually other clubs realised they could get in on the act. Ultimately I think that the arrival of the crop of 1992, together with the reinvigoration of the club championship had as much impact on the county team as the arrival of Gerald McCarthy. Remember we ran Tipperary very close in Walsh Park in 1996 under Tony Mansfield. On the other hand Gerald did bring in a level of professionalism that we hadn't seen before. But equally I think Paddy Joe Ryan deserves a bit of the credit for having a bit of vision.
Like the 1959 team the 1998 team had a long tail, as well and we are dealing with the aftermath of that now. Our history dictates a couple of things. We got off to a slow start in the GAA and we'll never win 34 All Irelands, but once we got the hang of hurling we have shown a tendency to bounce back after a decline and produce great teams again. Those teams aren't outliers. They are the product of a production line of young hurlers. Occasionally our production line broke down but we always fix it.0 -
Brillant stuff sid0
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That's the best post I have read on this site in a long time. Hats off to you Sid Wallace.0
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I have no intention here of singling out players for savage criticism. They are amateurs. It is blatantly obvious that some players were overweight and unfit. That is the responsibility of the management. The facts are that Waterford was relegated and the championship campaign was a disaster. Worse still it was glaringly obvious that we had a management team that was clueless. Not just my opinion but the opinion of most Waterford supporters who voted with their feet at did not go to Nowlan Park. If Waterford wants to wallow in mediocrity so be it. However the financial implications for Waterford Co. Board will be horrendous.So you are saying the 70's, 80's and 90's had nothing to do with the players?
Look I wasn't happy with this year either but no-one can tell me that the present crop are a patch on the great team that we saw last decade, that's not saying some of them can't but some of the lads in their early 20's who were there under Davy would want to be delivering soon, the new lads this year didn't take pissing time to bed in, I don't think some of them will do it as no matter how committed they aren't good enough.
Now you are saying that some players want to leave because yet another manager isn't good enough, leave them, we can't blame managers forever. Time to piss or get off the pot.
What overweight players were incapable of running? To be honest I don't think we were fit enough but I think your comments are a bit overboard.
How come no one seems to mention the positives from this year, there were some, we unearthed 3 ready to go inter county players that are potential stars, some people way to focused on the negative.
Everyone has had their say about McGrath, the seasons over, it was ****, they can all take some of the blame, give the man a chance next year he will be there in charge anyway
The main problem is that Derek McGrath thinks he has a monopoly of wisdom and assumes that he knows it all. The team preparation and the results indicate the opposite.
What is positive about relegation and humiliation in the championship?0 -
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sid wallace, that was some post. was surprised to find out that de la salle was considered to be a royalist school since the 1916 rising leader Thomas Ashe spent two years there training to be a teacher. very enjoyable read.0
This discussion has been closed.
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