Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

Clonmel1000

Ballygunner 2.16 Mount Sion 0.9 Desperate stuff altogether. Young Gleeson sent off

willbeuptuesday

Worst game I was ever at, the reaction of the crowd as the teams came onto the pitch for the second half said it all!

cookey123

Watching it on tg4 and seems very poor,gunners very well coached with every player knowing the game plan and sticking to it..... The movement for there own puck outs looks very good with very few 50:50 situations

Mountainlad

One sided in the end but thought it was a lot better than that game down in Clare. Austin Gleeson is a super young hurler. His fielding and reading of the game from Center back at just 19 was phenomenal. Needs a bit of guidance with decision making certainly but that will come. I hope he just steers is effort into his hurling rather than getting into arguments, the second yellow was just stupid thing to get.

Stephen Roche should be looked at for the County team. I didn't think he was great as a minor, but was brilliant for the u21s in his first year in 2011, far outshone Martin O Neill that day. Two good games hes had now the last two. Outside of that Mount Sion havent much else from an inter county perspective.

Paudi Mahony has the vision of Paul Flynn, and his touch as well. Not the goalscoring threat Flynn was but where I think he sometimes falls down at inter county level is just lacking a bit more pace. If he had that he'd be very good.

Brian O'Sullivan took his two goals well, was 2-2 he scored? He's great at this level but without trying to be harsh on him it does worry me when he's the best forward on offer at a County final. It's the area where you're hoping for a few players to emerge but just don't seem to be there at the minute.


Referee was shocking and blew the whistle far too much which didn't help the game. What Kenny Stafford did at the end was nothing short of disgraceful and I hope he gets a lengthy retrospective ban, although I'm not sure can they now that he got a yellow.

culbaire

Mountainlad wrote: »

One sided in the end but thought it was a lot better than that game down in Clare. Austin Gleeson is a super young hurler. His fielding and reading of the game from Center back at just 19 was phenomenal. Needs a bit of guidance with decision making certainly but that will come. I hope he just steers is effort into his hurling rather than getting into arguments, the second yellow was just stupid thing to get.

Stephen Roche should be looked at for the County team. I didn't think he was great as a minor, but was brilliant for the u21s in his first year in 2011, far outshone Martin O Neill that day. Two good games hes had now the last two. Outside of that Mount Sion havent much else from an inter county perspective.

Paudi Mahony has the vision of Paul Flynn, and his touch as well. Not the goalscoring threat Flynn was but where I think he sometimes falls down at inter county level is just lacking a bit more pace. If he had that he'd be very good.

Brian O'Sullivan took his two goals well, was 2-2 he scored? He's great at this level but without trying to be harsh on him it does worry me when he's the best forward on offer at a County final. It's the area where you're hoping for a few players to emerge but just don't seem to be there at the minute.


Referee was shocking and blew the whistle far too much which didn't help the game. What Kenny Stafford did at the end was nothing short of disgraceful and I hope he gets a lengthy retrospective ban, although I'm not sure can they now that he got a yellow.

The wind ruined the game. Mt Sion could not convert the chances into scores. There are weaknesses in the Ballygunner backline. There is a tendency to foul. Better opposition will exploit holes in the backline. Mt Sion could have scored three goals today. Cratloe are no world beaters and are still in the Clare Senior Football Championship. This might be to the advantage of Ballygunner who will have home advantage. However Ballygunner will struggle to even win out in Munster.

DeiseDawg

Congrats to ballygunner senior hurlers on a deserved win today. Great to see the ballygunner under age-players in the stands in their club colours before the county final. Then the good feeling was ruined as the kids were encouraged to boo and jeer the opposing team as they came on the field. What a way to teach and encourage respect in sport! Maybe this goes on in all clubs, but whatever club encourages this should be ashamed.

Deskjockey

Mountainlad wrote: »

What Kenny Stafford did at the end was nothing short of disgraceful and I hope he gets a lengthy retrospective ban, although I'm not sure can they now that he got a yellow.

Just caught the last few minutes on the TV, how K Stafford didn't get sent off for two blatently late and high pulls like that is a mystery. It actually discredits the game in general when dangerous play like that is not punished sufficiently.

Mountainlad

Deskjockey wrote: »

Just caught the last few minutes on the TV, how K Stafford didn't get sent off for two blatently late and high pulls like that is a mystery. It actually discredits the game in general when dangerous play like that is not punished sufficiently.

I hope it's acted on. Forget club bias/rivalry here, and we need to appreciate that all these lads put in a huge commitment and deserve to be able to go on the field without having to worry about somebody deliberately causing them serious harm which his act could have.

pmy.murphy

Decided to head down to Waterford today from Kilkenny to watch what I thought would be good game. I was very shocked at how poor the atmosphere was for a county final, no excitement in the crowd whatsoever and the game itself I found was poor. I saw a replay back home on the telly of the Mount Sion sub who pulled across two lads in the chest. Absolutely disgraceful carry on, hope hes given a very long ban

bruschi

seananigans wrote: »

if we ever like to really challenge , we have to ditch the football, Wexford is torn apart with this, pulling in every direction and achieving nothing

there are plenty of football counties that pay lip service to hurling but as soon as a hurling county does it it seems unsporting.

there are what., 8 or 9 hurling counties, honest real ones, we are an endangered species, and should be focused on keeping the tradition alive

Just on that, football in Wexford is not the problem to the hurling woes, far from it, and it's a lazy comment by hurling people to blame it. To say Wexford are going no where after beating Waterford this year is odd too.

And just another point too, the Wexford hurling final this year will be contested between St Anne's and Shelmaliers, both clubs still in the senior football. The hurling only clubs of oulart, rathnure and buffers alley didn't even make the semi finals. Football doesn't have to be to the detriment of hurling.

culbaire

bruschi wrote: »

Just on that, football in Wexford is not the problem to the hurling woes, far from it, and it's a lazy comment by hurling people to blame it. To say Wexford are going no where after beating Waterford this year is odd too.

And just another point too, the Wexford hurling final this year will be contested between St Anne's and Shelmaliers, both clubs still in the senior football. The hurling only clubs of oulart, rathnure and buffers alley didn't even make the semi finals. Football doesn't have to be to the detriment of hurling.

That's the exception. What is seldom is wonderful. Football has seriously damaged Wexford hurling. Note the difference between Kilkenny and Wexford. Wexford like Waterford is too small a country to carry both games successfully. Not even Cork can do it. Dublin football management will not allow dual players.

culbaire

pmy.murphy wrote: »

Decided to head down to Waterford today from Kilkenny to watch what I thought would be good game. I was very shocked at how poor the atmosphere was for a county final, no excitement in the crowd whatsoever and the game itself I found was poor. I saw a replay back home on the telly of the Mount Sion sub who pulled across two lads in the chest. Absolutely disgraceful carry on, hope hes given a very long ban

There is huge dissatisfaction in Waterford with the Senior Hurling management and the fiasco which unfolded this year. This has hit interest in the Co. Championships.
Then we have excuses being made in advance of the National Hurling League.
Supporters are fed up also with the Co. Board and are now voting with their feet and staying at home from matches. Hence the lack of atmosphere. The county is rudderless at present.

hardybuck

culbaire wrote: »

That's the exception. What is seldom is wonderful. Football has seriously damaged Wexford hurling. Note the difference between Kilkenny and Wexford. Wexford like Waterford is too small a country to carry both games successfully. Not even Cork can do it. Dublin football management will not allow dual players.

Watch Clare and see how they get on. Cratloe will probably win the Clare hurling and football double, they'd probably beat our hurling and football champions, and Clare would beat us in hurling and football at the moment.

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

Watch Clare and see how they get on. Cratloe will probably win the Clare hurling and football double, they'd probably beat our hurling and football champions, and Clare would beat us in hurling and football at the moment.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Cratloe. They have the talent, but I wouldn't say they're miles ahead of either Ballygunner or whoever wins the football based on Courtys performance v them last year. Trying to juggle both is incredibly difficult, and it seems to be hurling that suffers due to the broader range of skills. They've done fantastically well to balance it this far but I wouldn't go backing them in either Munster championship.

Clare would beat Waterford in football and hurling right now, but I'm not sure that would be an indication that you can balance both, their underage football has been just as bad recently. I don't think that supporting football is necessarily to the detriment of hurling. But I do think you need a very capable board, with a good financial position and ideally a good population. It is hard enough for a County like Waterford to compete with Cork in hurling alone but wed never match them in both sports with them being 5 times the size.

I wouldn't agree on the football has ruined hurling in Wexford at all, they are in quite a good position in hurling now. I think it was more that they had a few turbulent years like we did last year.

The blue blaa

I saw this on a friends facebook page, how did the referee send Gleeson off and allow Stafford to remain on the field when the incident happened in front of his eyes


Kenny Stafford and Austin Gleeson raise the tempe…: http://youtu.be/sditB-jfZis

hardybuck

Mountainlad wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Cratloe. They have the talent, but I wouldn't say they're miles ahead of either Ballygunner or whoever wins the football based on Courtys performance v them last year. Trying to juggle both is incredibly difficult, and it seems to be hurling that suffers due to the broader range of skills. They've done fantastically well to balance it this far but I wouldn't go backing them in either Munster championship.

Clare would beat Waterford in football and hurling right now, but I'm not sure that would be an indication that you can balance both, their underage football has been just as bad recently. I don't think that supporting football is necessarily to the detriment of hurling. But I do think you need a very capable board, with a good financial position and ideally a good population. It is hard enough for a County like Waterford to compete with Cork in hurling alone but wed never match them in both sports with them being 5 times the size.

I wouldn't agree on the football has ruined hurling in Wexford at all, they are in quite a good position in hurling now. I think it was more that they had a few turbulent years like we did last year.

Agree with most of the above. Re Cratloe, remember that they beat Ballinacourty after winning the county final the previous day!

I think part of the difficulty of people in Waterford is that they are looking externally instead of internally in source of inspiration.

Of counties of a similar size to us who would consider themselves hurling counties, Clare, Limerick and Wexford would probably beat us at both codes at the moment. Kilkenny are a freak and would beat us in hurling, and Offaly are a funny county who have swung between football and hurling, and are now rubbish at both.

I don't think comparing ourselves to others is massively beneficial - I think it is wasted energy. We have loads of room for improvement within our structures, loads of opportunity to draw more what we currently have, both in hurling and football.

bruschi

culbaire wrote: »

That's the exception. What is seldom is wonderful. Football has seriously damaged Wexford hurling. Note the difference between Kilkenny and Wexford. Wexford like Waterford is too small a country to carry both games successfully. Not even Cork can do it. Dublin football management will not allow dual players.

it really hasnt. as I said, its the easily blamed argument. Hurling went bad in Wexford because of hurling, not because of outside factors. They got lazy in their underage development, and didnt progress at other things. Football had very little, if anything to do with why hurling went bad in Wexford, and is just made a scapegoat by outsiders and by some hurling people in Wexford to try prove you cant do both.

MUFC91CS

The blue blaa wrote: »

I saw this on a friends facebook page, how did the referee send Gleeson off and allow Stafford to remain on the field when the incident happened in front of his eyes


Kenny Stafford and Austin Gleeson raise the tempe…: http://youtu.be/sditB-jfZis

Having watched it again there Gleeson's second yellow card was soft enough.

Mountainlad

MUFC91CS wrote: »

Having watched it again there Gleeson's second yellow card was soft enough.

I think what did it was he was jostling with Hutchison I think it was just before that and then next ball he swings in the air which I didn't see him do all day. Definitely an element of frustration there probably was a yellow. His yellow in the first half was soft though.

bruschi

Mountainlad wrote: »

I think what did it was he was jostling with Hutchison I think it was just before that and then next ball he swings in the air which I didn't see him do all day. Definitely an element of frustration there probably was a yellow. His yellow in the first half was soft though.

I thought they were both yellows to be honest. The first one was very clumsy, horsing into a player bending down to pick up a ball is a really needless tackle. As you say, the second one was frustration.

Must say though, I was hugely impressed with him. He caught some lovely balls and his runs through the centre were excellent. Will he end up with Waterford at centre back or will he be needed more in the forward line?

Mountainlad

bruschi wrote: »

I thought they were both yellows to be honest. The first one was very clumsy, horsing into a player bending down to pick up a ball is a really needless tackle. As you say, the second one was frustration.

Must say though, I was hugely impressed with him. He caught some lovely balls and his runs through the centre were excellent. Will he end up with Waterford at centre back or will he be needed more in the forward line?

I think eventually he's the natural successor to Brick, I said it after seeing the semi final. It's hard to believe he's only 19. He is needed more in the forwards at the minute but when Brick goes there appears to be a lack of Centre backs around. Darragh Fives maybe but I think he's better in midfield but he's got injury problems as well. Kevin Moran is a poor center back by inter county standards in my opinion, he has no feel for the position and I'd like to know where he was for David Redmond's goal last year.


But right now our biggest problem up front is ball winners, and he potentially is that once he develops a bit more physically.

culbaire

hardybuck wrote: »

Watch Clare and see how they get on. Cratloe will probably win the Clare hurling and football double, they'd probably beat our hurling and football champions, and Clare would beat us in hurling and football at the moment.

Clare won the 2013 Senior Hurling All Ireland with players who concentrated on hurling. Davy Fitz will use the same approach in 2015. Hurling and Gaelic football have very little in common except for the fact that both are run by the GAA. Clare football will go nowhere in terms of winning an All Ireland. The hurling set up here is a shambles. Attendances at matches will drop further. Supporters have had enough of the nonsense that went on this year. When you have a manager making excuses in advance of the NHL you know we are in real trouble.

Mountainlad

culbaire wrote: »

Clare won the 2013 Senior Hurling All Ireland with players who concentrated on hurling. Davy Fitz will use the same approach in 2015. Hurling and Gaelic football have very little in common except for the fact that both are run by the GAA. Clare football will go nowhere in terms of winning an All Ireland. The hurling set up here is a shambles. Attendances at matches will drop further. Supporters have had enough of the nonsense that went on this year. When you have a manager making excuses in advance of the NHL you know we are in real trouble.

What are these excuses you're talking about?

Podge Collins not playing football last year would have made little difference to the year Clare had.

hardybuck

culbaire wrote: »

Clare won the 2013 Senior Hurling All Ireland with players who concentrated on hurling. Davy Fitz will use the same approach in 2015. Hurling and Gaelic football have very little in common except for the fact that both are run by the GAA. Clare football will go nowhere in terms of winning an All Ireland. The hurling set up here is a shambles. Attendances at matches will drop further. Supporters have had enough of the nonsense that went on this year. When you have a manager making excuses in advance of the NHL you know we are in real trouble.

The Clare footballers and Waterford hurlers will have one thing in common in 2015: neither of them will go close to winning an All Ireland.

Waterford's predicament has nothing to do with football, as hurling probably absorbs a greater proportion of resources now than ever.

Rather than try and wipe out a GAA sport, I'd be targeting other sports like soccer in particular. One of the main reasons guys play that is for a regular, organised game - something which GAA cannot offer them at present.

cul beag

Any names in the hat to replace sitcom tom?!! Heard there's 3 or 4?

soft free

bruschi wrote: »

it really hasnt. as I said, its the easily blamed argument. Hurling went bad in Wexford because of hurling, not because of outside factors. They got lazy in their underage development, and didnt progress at other things. Football had very little, if anything to do with why hurling went bad in Wexford, and is just made a scapegoat by outsiders and by some hurling people in Wexford to try prove you cant do both.

Yes and no.

Underage development was behind but is catching up, particularly at hurling. Dual players at underage still exist but the day is coming when it wont work. The exceptions offered as to how dual is possible are exactly that: exceptions. Better that a young lad specialises from u16 up, at either code, rather than hope to consistently compete with peers operating at one code. Consistent practice and playing of hurling or football is what builds consistent performance and skills development. Any amount of serious research shows this to be the case and more importantly any amount of practical examples.

Club football in Wexford attracts lower crowds, has been poor once outside the county in provincial championships, with a few exceptions over the years and this has been true of hurling, excluding Oulart the Ballagh, outside the county. Much talk that dual clubs making the hurling final, Shels and Annes suggesting a raising of the standards is just talk. Once Oulart slipped, it was always going to be wide open and further talk that other hurling only clubs such as Rathnure and Harriers are not as competitive this year is not evidence that dual clubs are the template. Rathnure are by a distance a while away from past glories while Harriers continue to scorn the opportunity they have of being the only serious hurling club in Wexford town and by doing so fail to be as competitive as they should be. I know of two senior teams who played an Intermediate KK club and lost with a full team while another senior Wex team played a senior KK club team who will be lucky not to relegated and got well beat. Small things but they matter.



Wexford's biggest disaster has being,up to the present man, a run of shockingly bad leaders who saw thier glorious reflection in the mickey mouse land deals they embarked on, supported by weak CB members and a deaf and entirely dumb annual convention of sheep, happy to make cuts at everything and everybody bar the culprits at the big table. There were notable exceptions. There are still structural and personality defects at underage (last years minor debacle did not fall from the sky) while the current senior CB man, who will depart within a year or two, has been an improvement.

Hurlings near demise was not the fault of football. But long term progress will not come from a dual strucutre simply because there are neither the players or the resources. The Tipp man coming in to football has serious underage credentials but he does not have the large number of players ( 50-60) from which to pick a quality panel. Staying in Div 3 and a run in Leinster, once the Dubs are avoided, will be his target. The proposed round robin for 2016 will help Wexford and others but that will be it. The run under Ryan was exciting but has left no legacy that is sustainable.

The weather yesterday was very poor but is not an enough excuse to cover the poor quality of the semi finals. Average stuff.

So, hopefully further pushing on under Dunne and the best of luck to the footballers but dual, on equal terms of resources and player quality, is years away.

3ships

A very poor County final adds to the gloom around Waterford hurling at present, but in Austin Gleeson and in part Brian O Sullivan and a couple more gunners, it'd still hold off on the doom. In fairness the sudden arrival of winter and the referees whistle didn't help. Mt Sion were never got going. No scores from Stephen Roche, Sean Ryan and Tony Browne after a solid 2-7 contribution from that trio the last day was most disapointing. Tony at times looked his age while Owen Whelan and Martin O Neill looked Tony's age tho they must have been carrying knocks judging by how laboured they were. Ballygunner I thought were average enough aside from the opening 10 minutes yet they didn't have to be any better than that.
You would have hoped for a different game had Sion taken their clear goal chances, they didn't and spent the rest of the game trying in vain to make up for those misses leaving the final score a bit skewed. The antics at the end of the game in front of the cameras didn't reflect well on Mt Sion, who had an otherwise good season. Ballygunner did well not to react.
An average Ballygunner will win 9 out of 10 games in this championship, it won't do against Cratloe and it'll be interesting to see if they have another gear when tested.

cul beag

3ships wrote: »

A very poor County final adds to the gloom around Waterford hurling at present, but in Austin Gleeson and in part Brian O Sullivan and a couple more gunners, it'd still hold off on the doom. In fairness the sudden arrival of winter and the referees whistle didn't help. Mt Sion were never got going. No scores from Stephen Roche, Sean Ryan and Tony Browne after a solid 2-7 contribution from that trio the last day was most disapointing. Tony at times looked his age while Owen Whelan and Martin O Neill looked Tony's age tho they must have been carrying knocks judging by how laboured they were. Ballygunner I thought were average enough aside from the opening 10 minutes yet they didn't have to be any better than that.
You would have hoped for a different game had Sion taken their clear goal chances, they didn't and spent the rest of the game trying in vain to make up for those misses leaving the final score a bit skewed. The antics at the end of the game in front of the cameras didn't reflect well on Mt Sion, who had an otherwise good season. Ballygunner did well not to react.
An average Ballygunner will win 9 out of 10 games in this championship, it won't do against Cratloe and it'll be interesting to see if they have another gear when tested.

Agreed. It has been a substandard championship from the start. The level has dropped alarmingly and lets be honest, of the 13 finals ballygunner has won,this team won't go down as their most exciting! Really they should be going for 3 in a row next yr only getting caught on the line last yr by passage. Its not much consolation but the Clare final was even worse!
You would imagine b/gunner will have to improve considerably if they're to be contenders in Munster. Next yr will be the same in the county championship,dls dungarvan and b/gunner will contest the latter stages between them as there's no other club capable of competing with them and its going to be this way for the foreseeable future.

MUFC91CS

cul beag wrote: »

Next yr will be the same in the county championship,dls dungarvan and b/gunner will contest the latter stages between them as there's no other club capable of competing with them and its going to be this way for the foreseeable future.

Do you mind me asking why you left out MS? They were semi finalists in 2012 and 2013 losing to the DLS and Passage who went on to win it and they were beaten in the final this year. Fair enough they were poor in the final but out of the 15 that started on Sunday I think only four of them were over 30. They have a relatively young team.

Mountainlad

cul beag wrote: »

Agreed. It has been a substandard championship from the start. The level has dropped alarmingly and lets be honest, of the 13 finals ballygunner has won,this team won't go down as their most exciting! Really they should be going for 3 in a row next yr only getting caught on the line last yr by passage. Its not much consolation but the Clare final was even worse!
You would imagine b/gunner will have to improve considerably if they're to be contenders in Munster. Next yr will be the same in the county championship,dls dungarvan and b/gunner will contest the latter stages between them as there's no other club capable of competing with them and its going to be this way for the foreseeable future.

Are we really gonna have this again? DLS have lost in the quarters and semis the last two years, and to teams that didn't even go on to win the championship.

Since when did Dungarvan earn this right to be automatically on another level to the other 9 teams in the championship? They possibly are the second/third best team on show this year and did make the final in 2012 but they really aren't that far ahead of a few teams below them.

Obviously Mount Sion are being pretty badly disrespected in your post too. They played a good brand of hurling and would expect them to remain competitive next year.


There really isn't that much between a decent amount of teams and it all really depends on the setup they have that year and things you can't predict like injuries. Look at Passage last year as the prime example of a team well organized that believe in what they are trying to achieve being successful, and they weren't far from pipping Dungarvan at the post this year despite only having 14 men for most of the second half.


I look at Ballygunner and their record and there is no doubt they are the leading team in the County, and backed up by 4 u21 titles in a row. But when you look at their personnel, and including the young lads I really don't view them as a super power that have a gulf in class between them and the rest. So sick of people giving out about the Senior championship, there's far more right with it then quite a number of other championship formats in rival counties. It's after that where the problems are.