Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

Sliabh gCua1

MUFC91CS wrote: »

Can't really speak for the west tbh but the eastern intermediate championship is fairly poor and I couldn't pick any team out of it that wouldn't be relegation fodder were they to be promoted. Fair play to Saviours for what they achieved this year but they are nowhere near good enough for the senior grade.

The level of hurling simply isn’t good enough at intermediate level to prime teams for Senior. They really need to play a county intermediate championship. This would make it far more competitive. The Cork Intermediate championship is extremely difficult to win and in general the teams that come up are at least competitive at the senior grade.

The standard of Intermediate Hurling in the west over the past few years has been fairly high. It is a very hard competition to win and may be harder to pick the winners at the start of the year than it is in senior. It does not appear to be as strong in the east of the county. Maybe i might sound harsh saying this, and if i am i no doubt will be pulled up on it.

If as a county we want to move on from where we are right now, the time is coming sooner rather than later when the two divisional boards are scrapped and the best eight or ten teams playing intermediate over a three to five year period are placed in one competition. Maybe now is also the time to maybe cut the numbers we have in senior to maybe eight based on results in the last couple of years (i know it wont happen) and put the other four teams and the four best intermediate teams over the past 3 to 5 years into a Intermediate Premier or Senior B competition.

Sliabh gCua1

Deise Hurler wrote: »

I see Seamus is after retiring according to the News and Star. Can't blame the chap. Sitting on the bench for most of last year looking out at small forwards unable to win their own ball. A great servant. If only we had a few more ball winners in the forwards like him coming through.

I think the news was broken in the Dungarvan Leader last week. I think i even saw that Shane Walsh and Stephen Molumphy have called time on their inter county days.

Deise Hurler

Sliabh gCua1 wrote: »

I think the news was broken in the Dungarvan Leader last week. I think i even saw that Shane Walsh and Stephen Molumphy have called time on their inter county days.

God I hope that ain't true but wouldn't be surprised if Molumphy calls it a day. Like Seamus, he should have been a starter last year. Going to be a very young panel next year by the look of things.

Deise Hurler

Sliabh gCua1 wrote: »

The standard of Intermediate Hurling in the west over the past few years has been fairly high. It is a very hard competition to win and may be harder to pick the winners at the start of the year than it is in senior. It does not appear to be as strong in the east of the county. Maybe i might sound harsh saying this, and if i am i no doubt will be pulled up on it.

If as a county we want to move on from where we are right now, the time is coming sooner rather than later when the two divisional boards are scrapped and the best eight or ten teams playing intermediate over a three to five year period are placed in one competition. Maybe now is also the time to maybe cut the numbers we have in senior to maybe eight based on results in the last couple of years (i know it wont happen) and put the other four teams and the four best intermediate teams over the past 3 to 5 years into a Intermediate Premier or Senior B competition.

Who would you pick as your senior teams and who as your intermediate premier?

HillFarmer

deisedude wrote: »

All the best to Seamus in his retirement. Could never be faulted for effort in the white shirt and had great aerial presence.

Thanks Seamy for all your hard work over the years.
Will never forget the point against Tipp in the Munster Final

MUFC91CS

Deise Hurler wrote: »

Who would you pick as your senior teams and who as your intermediate premier?

10 team senior championship with the two bottom teams in the senior groups dropping back to premier intermediate.

The top three teams in each of the four intermediate groups would go into premier with the 2 relegated teams making 14. Two groups of seven with the top four from each going into the quarter finals. 1st vs 4th etc.

That would leave 6 eastern teams and 4 western intermediate teams in the normal intermediate. Add the east and western junior championships to make up a 12 team normal intermediate championship.

Obviously some teams would feel hard done by but the above would be fairer than just selecting teams. You could also add an eastern and western divisional side in the senior championship.

Jarjohn

Jarjohn wrote: »

Senior 12 teams 2x6 with 2 relegated
Inter Prem 12 teams 2 groups of 6 with 2 promoted and 2 relegated
Inter Div 1 12 teams 2 groups of 6 with 2 promoted and 2 relegated
Junior Prem 12 teams approx. with 2 groups of 6 with 2 promoted and 2 relegated.
Junior A similar format with 2 groups with 2 promoted and 2 relegated
Junior B similar format with 2 groups and 2 promoted.

I believe that second and third string teams should start either Junior A or B and work their way up. Any second team playing Intermediate in East or Junior(Senior attached) East/West should start at Junior A and teams currently Junior (Inter) attached East/West should start at Junior B. I have to admire fixture list produced at start of year by Eastern Board with players knowing definite dates of games at start of year in Intermediate and junior. 2 up and 2 down is crucial as a lot of teams floating about same divisions for years not really benefiting the championship. Would keep everyone on their toes

I posted this about 5 months ago and I think it is the only way forward. 2 up 2 down will sort out of teams. Afaik the junior in the west will be 4 teams again next year with possibly 12 intermediate ( Cappoquin gone leaving 9 and Ardmore, Modeligo and possibly Ballyduff joining intermediate grade). Totally unbalanced and now time for an Intermediate Premier and 1st division. Indeed if 2 teams had not been relegated from Intermediate this year it would have left 3 junior teams! Crazy stuff

Sliabh gCua1

Deise Hurler wrote: »

Who would you pick as your senior teams and who as your intermediate premier?

Most would cut numbers i am sure by results on the year previous to cutting it, but i would do it on results over 3 or 5 years. To do this some sort of rating system would have to be come up with, whereby you get X amount of points for winning in the league section of the championship, (half points for a draw), with an increased amount of points for winning a quarter final, more still for a semi final and more again for a final. I know that most would not agree with this, but then if we all were to agree with each other all of the time, we would have nothing to argue about.

Sliabh gCua1

MUFC91CS wrote: »

10 team senior championship with the two bottom teams in the senior groups dropping back to premier intermediate.

The top three teams in each of the four intermediate groups would go into premier with the 2 relegated teams making 14. Two groups of seven with the top four from each going into the quarter finals. 1st vs 4th etc.

That would leave 6 eastern teams and 4 western intermediate teams in the normal intermediate. Add the east and western junior championships to make up a 12 team normal intermediate championship.

Obviously some teams would feel hard done by but the above would be fairer than just selecting teams. You could also add an eastern and western divisional side in the senior championship.

Why have more teams playing Intermediate from the east when the results show that it is western teams that are fairing best in the last few years. Not starting a east v west argument here, but just stating a fact.

Sliabh gCua1

Jarjohn wrote: »

I posted this about 5 months ago and I think it is the only way forward. 2 up 2 down will sort out of teams. Afaik the junior in the west will be 4 teams again next year with possibly 12 intermediate ( Cappoquin gone leaving 9 and Ardmore, Modeligo and possibly Ballyduff joining intermediate grade). Totally unbalanced and now time for an Intermediate Premier and 1st division. Indeed if 2 teams had not been relegated from Intermediate this year it would have left 3 junior teams! Crazy stuff

Do Ballyduff have to win the county final before they move up a grade. That is the way it is usually done in the west, and was in the east (I think) up to the end of last year when Tramore were promoted to Intermediate despite not winning the county junior final.

MUFC91CS

Sliabh gCua1 wrote: »

Why have more teams playing Intermediate from the east when the results show that it is western teams that are fairing best in the last few years. Not starting a east v west argument here, but just stating a fact.

Its no issue with East vs West. I was simply giving an example of how it could be implemented fairly with the championship structure the way it is. There would be 6 teams from the East and West that would makle up the premier intermediate grade plus the two teams that finished bottom of the senoir groups. This means that there could be 8 west, 6 east, 7 west 7 east or 6 west 8 east teams making up the premier grade.

The standard intermediate grade would be made up of 7 eastern teams and 5 western teams.

If the western county board wanted to add two more intermediate teams to their own championship with the 6 best rated going into the premier and the other 6 going into the standard intermediate championship then thats grand. The two intermidate championships would be then made up of 14 teams then. Unfortunately there is currently only 10 western intermediate teams and there is 12 eastern.

MUFC91CS

Jarjohn wrote: »

I posted this about 5 months ago and I think it is the only way forward. 2 up 2 down will sort out of teams. Afaik the junior in the west will be 4 teams again next year with possibly 12 intermediate ( Cappoquin gone leaving 9 and Ardmore, Modeligo and possibly Ballyduff joining intermediate grade). Totally unbalanced and now time for an Intermediate Premier and 1st division. Indeed if 2 teams had not been relegated from Intermediate this year it would have left 3 junior teams! Crazy stuff

This idea is grand in theory but without some kind of qualification process how do you pick the teams that make up the grades. It would simply be rejected by the other teams.

I don't like the two teams promoted and relegated though. One team up and down is enough.

I really like the Junior idea. All the junior championships are pretty pointless as is.

conditioned games

If the senior teams were cut to 10 would it be possible that the 2 best teams in the Intermediate Premier/ Senior B competition could join the top senior teams at the quarter final stage? something similar works with the national league.

hardybuck

Picking an equal number of teams from the east and west for an intermediate premier would just be the tidiest way of getting it started. If there was an inbalance, it would sort it out after a couple of years via relegation and promotion to that grade.

I would go a slightly different route. I would organise an 8 team Senior A, and have each team play 7 really tough games.

Relegation semi finalists in current senior championship would go into a Senior B/Intermediate Premier. Joining them would be the finalists from the east and west intermediate championships. Another 8 teams playing 7 really competitive matches.

Intermediate regular - 4 remaining teams from east and west, again in same format 8 teams.

I think the above would result in really competitive games at each level. For those moaning about not being in a high enough grade - go an win your grade and you'll have nothing to worry about.

I would leave junior teams out of the proposal initially following a review, I think asking teams at that level to do a lot of travel mightn't work.

conditioned games

hardybuck wrote: »

Picking an equal number of teams from the east and west for an intermediate premier would just be the tidiest way of getting it started. If there was an inbalance, it would sort it out after a couple of years via relegation and promotion to that grade.

I would go a slightly different route. I would organise an 8 team Senior A, and have each team play 7 really tough games.

Relegation semi finalists in current senior championship would go into a Senior B/Intermediate Premier. Joining them would be the finalists from the east and west intermediate championships. Another 8 teams playing 7 really competitive matches.

Intermediate regular - 4 remaining teams from east and west, again in same format 8 teams.

I think the above would result in really competitive games at each level. For those moaning about not being in a high enough grade - go an win your grade and you'll have nothing to worry about.

I would leave junior teams out of the proposal initially following a review, I think asking teams at that level to do a lot of travel mightn't work.

Your system allows for 20 teams in the 3 tiers. At the moment there are 12 senior and 23 intermediate teams in the county which means your 15 teams unaccounted for.

hardybuck

conditioned games wrote: »

Your system allows for 20 teams in the 3 tiers. At the moment there are 12 senior and 23 intermediate teams in the county which means your 15 teams unaccounted for.

I believe that there are senior teams who are more appropriate to senior, and intermediate teams which are more appropriate to junior.

Slobbery

It would be hard to divide out the teams alright - as in it would be hard to get the clubs to agree to the new structure.

I know it happened in Cork a few years ago, I wonder how they got it done? I suppose there was a big gulf in standards between the best and worst intermediate hurling teams up their. The standard of the top premier intermediate and some senior clubs in cork is very close.

Back to Waterford the fact is that standards are increasing Clubs, Look at Ballynameeagh, Brickey Rangers, Ballysaggart and Modeligo - they are very good teams now, no disrespect but these clubs would have populated the Junior ranks year after year before but now they all have the makings of excellent intermediate teams and are well worth their place. The rise of Dungarvan CBS as well as the work in the clubs obviously is the cause of the upsurge.

Cappoquin also seem to have profited from players attending Blackwater school and playing Harty, their players have been very prominent on that school team the last few years and they will be no strangers to any of the players from senior clubs in the vicinity if they are drawn against them, I think this a huge plus for them, they wont fear any of those players as they have been playing and against alot of them at some point during that school system.

Ballinameela
Ballysaggart
Stradbally
Shamrocks
Modeligo
Brickey Rangers
An Rinn
Ardmore
Tourin
Abbeyside

This is how the intermediate will look next year - with the exception of Abbeyside's 2nd team, there is nothing between them.
Tourin if they had Shane Fives back and Dara playing injury free would be back in it but I dont know if that is likely.
Shamrocks must be coming good again with the Roche's it is hard to know who else they have coming when they are grouped with Tallow.

Has Hurling in the west of the county ever been this strong across so many different clubs?

hardybuck

Slobbery wrote: »

It would be hard to divide out the teams alright - as in it would be hard to get the clubs to agree to the new structure.

I know it happened in Cork a few years ago, I wonder how they got it done? I suppose there was a big gulf in standards between the best and worst intermediate hurling teams up their. The standard of the top premier intermediate and some senior clubs in cork is very close.

Back to Waterford the fact is that standards are increasing Clubs, Look at Ballynameeagh, Brickey Rangers, Ballysaggart and Modeligo - they are very good teams now, no disrespect but these clubs would have populated the Junior ranks year after year before but now they all have the makings of excellent intermediate teams and are well worth their place. The rise of Dungarvan CBS as well as the work in the clubs obviously is the cause of the upsurge.

Cappoquin also seem to have profited from players attending Blackwater school and playing Harty, their players have been very prominent on that school team the last few years and they will be no strangers to any of the players from senior clubs in the vicinity if they are drawn against them, I think this a huge plus for them, they wont fear any of those players as they have been playing and against alot of them at some point during that school system.

Ballinameela
Ballysaggart
Stradbally
Shamrocks
Modeligo
Brickey Rangers
An Rinn
Ardmore
Tourin
Abbeyside

This is how the intermediate will look next year - with the exception of Abbeyside's 2nd team, there is nothing between them.
Tourin if they had Shane Fives back and Dara playing injury free would be back in it but I dont know if that is likely.
Shamrocks must be coming good again with the Roche's it is hard to know who else they have coming when they are grouped with Tallow.

Has Hurling in the west of the county ever been this strong across so many different clubs?

I think it would be fair to agree that the hurling clubs in the west, particularly the smaller ones, have come on in recent years. A combination of the profile of hurling increasing in what were traditionally stronger football areas and the opportunity for lads to get onto grouped schools teams has definitely helped.

Aside from that, how many of our intermediate teams would be intermediate in Cork? We know our county champions rarely win games below senior level.

MUFC91CS

conditioned games wrote: »

If the senior teams were cut to 10 would it be possible that the 2 best teams in the Intermediate Premier/ Senior B competition could join the top senior teams at the quarter final stage? something similar works with the national league.

To be fair the senior national hurling league format is stupid. It makes no sense that one team can play the 5 best teams in country, finish 5th and have no quarter final and a team can beat offaly and Laois (no disrespect) and make a quarter final.

Slobbery

hardybuck wrote: »

I think it would be fair to agree that the hurling clubs in the west, particularly the smaller ones, have come on in recent years. A combination of the profile of hurling increasing in what were traditionally stronger football areas and the opportunity for lads to get onto grouped schools teams has definitely helped.

Aside from that, how many of our intermediate teams would be intermediate in Cork? We know our county champions rarely win games below senior level.

Not sure how many would be Intermediate, the premier intermediate grade is very strong, in saying that Waterfords strongest senior teams would be winning the Cork County championship I would think.

Cork is a massive county, presumably the catchment areas of their clubs must be huge compared to us

In a small catchment area in West Waterford (from the Cork Border in Tallow drive east for 15 minutes) you would have passed the following GAA clubs Tallow, Shamrocks, Tourin, Cappoqouin, Melleray, Lismore, Ballysaggart - they all seem to be up on top of each other - I know Cork is the county with the most GAA clubs in the country - but surely if they were as condensed as the example above than they would have double what they have? maybe our clubs are just smaller and that has an afect as you go down the club grades.

Orizio

Slobbery wrote: »

Not sure how many would be Intermediate, the premier intermediate grade is very strong, in saying that Waterfords strongest senior teams would be winning the Cork County championship I would think.

Cork is a massive county, presumably the catchment areas of their clubs must be huge compared to us

In a small catchment area in West Waterford (from the Cork Border in Tallow drive east for 15 minutes) you would have passed the following GAA clubs Tallow, Shamrocks, Tourin, Cappoqouin, Melleray, Lismore, Ballysaggart - they all seem to be up on top of each other - I know Cork is the county with the most GAA clubs in the country - but surely if they were as condensed as the example above than they would have double what they have? maybe our clubs are just smaller and that has an afect as you go down the club grades.

Think this is an intelligent post. Anecdotally I would say Cork's Senior championship is one of the worst out of the main hurling counties, but our junior/intermediate is quite strong.

hardybuck

Orizio wrote: »

Think this is an intelligent post. Anecdotally I would say Cork's Senior championship is one of the worst out of the main hurling counties, but our junior/intermediate is quite strong.

And would it be fair to say that this has helped lads from intermediate and junior clubs to get up to intercounty teams? I know the football team had a lot of junior and intermediate players who won All Irelands, but not sure about hurling?

deisedude

Orizio wrote: »

Think this is an intelligent post. Anecdotally I would say Cork's Senior championship is one of the worst out of the main hurling counties, but our junior/intermediate is quite strong.

I grew up on the Cork Waterford border and still go to games in both counties. A good few of the premier intermediate teams in Cork would beat nearly half the Senior teams in Waterford.

Granted I take your point about the Cork senior championship being poor. Outside of Newtownshandrum I can't remember the last other Cork team to win out Munster?

Charlie69

Sad to hear that great warrior Seamus Prendergast has decided to hang up his boots, fantastic servant to Waterford hurling and a player I have admired for years.

Slobbery

deisedude wrote: »

I grew up on the Cork Waterford border and still go to games in both counties. A good few of the premier intermediate teams in Cork would beat nearly half the Senior teams in Waterford.

Granted I take your point about the Cork senior championship being poor. Outside of Newtownshandrum I can't remember the last other Cork team to win out Munster?

I cant remember anyone else, in the late ninties it was all Clare teams winnining it out it seemed, but during this period Divisional teams in Cork were wining out the club championship (imokilliy, avondhu) , Blackrock won three counties in a row i think, cant remember them doing anything in Munster Club at that time.

Early 2000's the Waterford Clubs won a few, Along with Toomevara and Newtownshandrum that accounted for most with DLS at the end.... Na Piarsigh and Thurles Sars the last few years...

Sarsfields Cork may have a right chance this year, having breezed through the county final they wont be as tired as maybe other teams like Cratloe, plus they have won so many times recently that they must have had one eye on Munster Club since nearly before the county final - that is taking it the next logical step for them.
It is funny how they are so dominant in Cork but yet do not have a very dominant presence on the Cork team - and dont have a current inter county forward.
In fact Kanturk had triple Sarsfields representation on the county team.

Mountainlad

Slobbery wrote: »

It is funny how they are so dominant in Cork but yet do not have a very dominant presence on the Cork team - and dont have a current inter county forward.
In fact Kanturk had triple Sarsfields representation on the county team.

You could say the same thing about Danesfort (if Paddy Hogan is still on the panel, though not sure) and Clara who won Kilkenny last year. It just goes to show a few class players (and Paul Murphy and Richie Hogan are exactly that) doesn't win you anything. In theory, Thurles Sars should win Tipp every year.

deisedude

Mountainlad wrote: »

You could say the same thing about Danesfort (if Paddy Hogan is still on the panel, though not sure) and Clara who won Kilkenny last year. It just goes to show a few class players (and Paul Murphy and Richie Hogan are exactly that) doesn't win you anything. In theory, Thurles Sars should win Tipp every year.

I think there is a wider argument to be made that club championships around the country are weaker the last few years due to emigration.

wingbacknr5

Mountainlad wrote: »

You could say the same thing about Danesfort (if Paddy Hogan is still on the panel, though not sure) and Clara who won Kilkenny last year. It just goes to show a few class players (and Paul Murphy and Richie Hogan are exactly that) doesn't win you anything. In theory, Thurles Sars should win Tipp every year.

Paddy Hogan is not on the county panel any more but is still a top quality club hurler. Your point is well made, a balanced side such as Clara will generally win a county championship before a side with a sprinkling on county players but carrying passengers elsewhere.

Just last weekend a Glenmore side containing county seniors Eoin Murphy and Ger Aylward and county minors Alan and Shane Murphy were relegated to Junior in Kilkenny. The team who bet them (Conahy Shamrocks) didn't have any county players but were a more balanced outfit.

Mountainlad

More retirements in tomorrows indo (note plural).

Could be confirmation of what was said about Walshy and Molumphy.

PTH2009

Mountainlad wrote: »

More retirements in tomorrows indo (note plural).

Could be confirmation of what was said about Walshy and Molumphy.

it cud be the brick