Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

stumblingblock

Alf Tupper wrote: »

I don't disagree with anything you have said there.

But the reason SOS is being focussed on here is that his retention on the panel over Molomphy, Lawlor, Nagle, Walsh and Foley etc is a glowing example of one of the main complaints about McGrath - not being even handed in his dealing with players.

This has had the knock on effect of loss of team spirit and group coheviseness as evidenced by our performances last year. And also, by the way, the walking away of our two most proficient mentors.

To be fair he give a fair crack to dunford and Bourke last year and they proved to be a success. Hope we see a few more like them in this season.

HillFarmer

cul beag wrote: »

??????????? Doesn't warrant a response!.........I give up!!

Cul Beag, if Mcgrath won an ireland you'd still have something bad to say.

There is a serious bitterness here among supporters, he might have made bad calls, but I think you need to give him a chance.

Personally I think SOS is better than nagle and co imo.

BTW not connected in any way to Mgrath or Sully

Ropaire

That examiner article is just embarrassing on so many levels. McGrath literally says top four in 1B would be a great step forward for us? I'd call fourth in 1b a failure.

“We are where we are not because of me or the players", well who the **** else got us there? I lost all respect for McGrath as a manager a long time ago, if we won something he'd be saying the opposite and milking it for all its worth, how is he still the manager?

Ropaire

Anyone saying give McGrath a chance, he's had a year, he has had a chance and he didn't take it. If this was any paying job he would not have done enough to warrant keeping his position. He did his best, his best isn't good enough, time to give someone else a go.

Professey Chin

All I've seen so far is a manager who inherited a team that was improving then brought them down even lower and continues to do so.

He actually reminds me of Davy Fitz in a few ways but without any short term motivational benefits. Seems to be more focused on seeing himself as a tactical genius but never has a plan B when these dont work.
The transition argument doesnt cut it. This would have been a team in transition at the end of Fitz or start of Ryans tenure. Not 4 years later.
Hes creating a fake transition rushing through players from minor who shouldnt be senior for another year or 2. This is a huge risk but made up his own plaudits in victory and excuses in failure.

Slobbery

Professey Chin wrote: »

All I've seen so far is a manager who inherited a team that was improving then brought them down even lower and continues to do so.

He actually reminds me of Davy Fitz in a few ways but without any short term motivational benefits. Seems to be more focused on seeing himself as a tactical genius but never has a plan B when these dont work.
The transition argument doesnt cut it. This would have been a team in transition at the end of Fitz or start of Ryans tenure. Not 4 years later.
Hes creating a fake transition rushing through players from minor who shouldnt be senior for another year or 2. This is a huge risk but made up his own plaudits in victory and excuses in failure.

How many All stars did ryan inherit and how many did McGrath inherit.

Serious question I don't have the time to look it up myself in work

Brad1234

On a different topic how exciting is the change at board level that took place last night. It's nice to see new fresh faces at the helm with new ideas. They won't be sullied by the past on items such as the development of new grounds or the outlandish spending on senior teams. With our financial background it was imperative to have a money man with a strong eye for finance and guys who think outside the box. There are strong rumours that the new reign will start with the entrance to benny hill music such will be the confusion over who sits in what chair.

Professey Chin

Slobbery wrote: »

How many All stars did ryan inherit and how many did McGrath inherit.

Serious question I don't have the time to look it up myself in work

Looking back here are our All Stars since 06
Eoin Murphy, Tony Browne, Dan Shanahan, Brick, Molumphy, Noel Connors, Kevin Moran, Eoin Kelly, Ken McGrath

Neither had Shanahan, Ken or Eoin Murphy
Ryan had Mullane for 1 year and Kelly for a bit of one year but we looked on the up in 2013 after they had gone. The rest have been available for both.

Thats transition. 2 big players leave. Team continues with a bump but builds again. Transition isnt a constant excuse to write multiple years off

Slobbery

The last year we made a final was 2011, we lost be 7 goals...
We made the semi final that year but only 7 of that team are on the panel now.
We are well and truly in a transitional period. We have been on a downward curve for a few years, McGraths cull this year makes this curve even more steep this year, basically this transition has been made worse by his non-sensical dropping of seasoned players who have more to offer.
Hopefully we have bottomed out and the only way is up...
But to be honest I think we will be worse than last year, playing a crappy system with less experienced players.

I think that McGrath may not last the year, if he does I don't think he will be asked back.

I can't see Paddy Joe Ryan accepting this, I think he will have a plan in place to fund the county team properly with a big name in charge. He played a huge part in lifting us before and I think he will do the same again

thinkstoomuch1

Slobbery wrote: »

It has nothing to do with the present day, I don't think he is doing enough to be on the panel either. I agree hard work got him a long way and fair play to him.

The other poster had dragged up some pointless story from his school days and if we are delving that far back into the guys past It was only fair to say that he was once highly regarded outside the county.

He was also a good bit younger than the guys named above with the exception of cha Fitzpatrick.. And to my knowledge michael rice has not retired.

Again nothing to do with him being in the panel now, but christ just trying to be fair the guy, you would swear he only ever got on the panel because in brought an apple into the teacher in primary school

He was a hard working player that kept himself in top Nick to play for the county, granted he never set the world alight but he could never be faulted for effort and commitment.

McGrath is doing enough wrong we don't need to focus on a SOS, who gave it his all in his time in the jersey, and use him as a stick to beat McGrath.

I'd totally agree what a lad does in he's school days off field play not on it is he's own business and no one else
Players must be soley judged field play anything else will dilute arguments imo.

deise12

the majority of people on this site are questioning the management which I totally agree with as some of the decisions they have made are ludicrous. But I don't see the point in slating players who are still on the panel because you are annoyed over someone being dropped. at the end of the day there is plenty of room on that panel for the SOS, Nagle Foley and Lawlor. who all have a lot to give and can contribute in different ways. we are all quick to judge fellas and make opinions because they may not be all stars and so on but its a 15 man game plus subs and everyone puts in the effort and the slogging and slaving throughout the year. There's always going to be favouritism in sports and we all can be biased at the end of the day depending on our clubs etc.. but the issue is not going to be solved by comparing different players. I was at that game against clare the other night and if there was one question id ask Derek McGrath it would be why if his reason for dropping certain players was because this year he decided to go for a younger approach but yet there were al least three players brought on and some who started from junior clubs who would have hurled with the likes of foley nagle and Lawlor in school and are all the same age?? its fairly obvious that Mcgrath finds it hard to be straight with people and continues to make excuses. he's saying he is putting in 60 hours a week and this is the result ?.

Sliabh gCua1

Cornerstoner wrote: »

After much lobbying, Thomas Keane finally gets his club to forward the motion re change of Junior championship

Everyone knows who I am on here. I just want to say I had no hand act or parcel in getting a motion submitted to the clar last night. Everyone knows, I have called for change with years, but the change I want to see is all-county competitions. I have said if anyone wants to check that I was against the way the motion was put together which was passed last night.

My fear is, and this could well happen is that we now could have all second string teams qualify for the knockout stages of the championship in both the east and west of the county, (from semi finals on anyway) and that there could be a situation whereby the team that represents us in Munster in 2015 and beyond at Junior level may not be county champions but may be a side that did not qualify for the knockout stages of the championship.

You only have to look at what happens at Intermediate level to see that this is possible. In the east of the county second string teams can beat first string intermediate teams and Abbeyside have done it many times in the west. If second string teams can beat Intermediate teams they can beat Junior teams as well. I know that someone said that if a first string junior team cannot beat a second string senior team they are going no place, but that does not wash with me. The facts speak for themselves.

If a second string team from the west (as an example) was to succeed Modeligo as County Champions in 2015 and they beat a second string team from the east in the final, I take it that the team that represents the county in Munster will come from the west of the county as second string teams cannot play in Munster. Suppose Dungarvan, Fourmilewater, Ballyduff Upper and Tallow for argument sake reach the semi finals of the Junior hurling championship in 2015 could we have a team that finished maybe did not qualify for a divisional knockout game represent us in Munster. To me that would be a disaster. The Munster Competition should be for County Champions, not for sides that finish down the pecking order. If a second string team was to beat a first string side in the county final, I am taking it that the runners up will represent the county in Munster and not a team from the same division as the winners.

thesaturdayman

Brad1234 wrote: »

On a different topic how exciting is the change at board level that took place last night. It's nice to see new fresh faces at the helm with new ideas. They won't be sullied by the past on items such as the development of new grounds or the outlandish spending on senior teams. With our financial background it was imperative to have a money man with a strong eye for finance and guys who think outside the box. There are strong rumours that the new reign will start with the entrance to benny hill music such will be the confusion over who sits in what chair.

the best quote i have seen on here for a while!

stumblingblock

Looking at McGraths interview in the examiner is quite bizzare and worrying to say the least. He seems to have written off any chance of success with this group of players bar getting into a league quarter final. Whether this is a deliberate ploy to take pressure off himself / the players I dont know but for someone who probably talked himself into a job with his ability to say right things I think his choice of wording at times since he got the job has been very bad.
He also makes a strong point about blooding players for someone else's's benefit in 2 or 3 years time. This really is a strange comment to make. Is he implying that he knows he won't be around for much longer or looking for sympathy that he could've waited a couple of years to take the job when last years minors will have grown into the side.? Either way is the reason he took the job on not to benefit Waterford hurling who cares about who gets the credit in 2 or 3 years time. There are plenty of good hurlers here and now and that is his job.
I was never a fan of giving him the job before he ever got it and was hoping like a lot of people that a top class outsider would be brought in. I was willing to give him a chance but at this stage I think its going nowhere. The man is well out of his depth and he seems to be really feeling the pressure heading into the 2nd year. His 2 selectors stepping down was the writing on the wall.
Where we go from here I dont know but I'm still crossing my fingers for Waterford hurling. PJ Ryan managed to entice top guys like Gerald and Justin MCarthy in from the outside before, I would like to think he can do something similar again.

Helpneeded86

Sliabh gCua1 wrote: »

Everyone knows who I am on here. I just want to say I had no hand act or parcel in getting a motion submitted to the clar last night. Everyone knows, I have called for change with years, but the change I want to see is all-county competitions. I have said if anyone wants to check that I was against the way the motion was put together which was passed last night.

My fear is, and this could well happen is that we now could have all second string teams qualify for the knockout stages of the championship in both the east and west of the county, (from semi finals on anyway) and that there could be a situation whereby the team that represents us in Munster in 2015 and beyond at Junior level may not be county champions but may be a side that did not qualify for the knockout stages of the championship.

You only have to look at what happens at Intermediate level to see that this is possible. In the east of the county second string teams can beat first string intermediate teams and Abbeyside have done it many times in the west. If second string teams can beat Intermediate teams they can beat Junior teams as well. I know that someone said that if a first string junior team cannot beat a second string senior team they are going no place, but that does not wash with me. The facts speak for themselves.

If a second string team from the west (as an example) was to succeed Modeligo as County Champions in 2015 and they beat a second string team from the east in the final, I take it that the team that represents the county in Munster will come from the west of the county as second string teams cannot play in Munster. Suppose Dungarvan, Fourmilewater, Ballyduff Upper and Tallow for argument sake reach the semi finals of the Junior hurling championship in 2015 could we have a team that finished maybe did not qualify for a divisional knockout game represent us in Munster. To me that would be a disaster. The Munster Competition should be for County Champions, not for sides that finish down the pecking order. If a second string team was to beat a first string side in the county final, I am taking it that the runners up will represent the county in Munster and not a team from the same division as the winners.

This would often be the case in Tipp. I think it was two years ago where ourselves and two others were knocked out at the QF stage. We had a situation where three teams had to playoff to go to Munster.

It takes from the whole thing really.

Sliabh gCua1

Helpneeded86 wrote: »

This would often be the case in Tipp. I think it was two years ago where ourselves and two others were knocked out at the QF stage. We had a situation where three teams had to playoff to go to Munster.

It takes from the whole thing really.

I'm glad someone agrees with me. Its often easy to make changes, but when they are made they should be carefully thought out first.

Mountainlad

Is representation in Munster the primary goal? My own perspective is the purpose of a club is a) to be successful for itself which simply concerns its own members and b) from a countywide perspective operate in an environment the promotes player development.

Obviously, I'd support whatever Waterford team is representing us at different levels in Munster but at the end of the day us having more competitive championships in house cannot be a bad thing even if the odd year you have two second strings competing in the Junior final and I would be pretty certain this will be the very odd year.

The proposed changes would definitely make it more competitive. And its a step in the right direction, 4 teams is not a championship it's a farce and as for the second strings having two separate competitions in that is nonsensical, and if we draw it back to the old rugby and soccer argument about lack of games well there was a situation two or three years ago where there was 5 teams in the Junior Senior attached and they played 4 games without being involved in the Intermediate/Junior county league they got going recently.

How do you keep lads interested at that?

Hurling man

I have to say that all senior clubs in the west will benefit greatly from a system that sees there young hurlers playing in the junior proper. It will make it far more competive for junior teams also. In the west this year I am sure Madeligo were strong enough to beat any of the senior attached teams comfortably but there players would benefit from facing different opponents and playing more competitive games. Colligan and Clashmore if relegated will also be well good enough to beat senior attached teams next year. At the minute clubs are losing players because they are not getting enough games when they come out of minor. Our under 21 completions start late and players playing senior attached get three or four games depending on walk overs and how far they get. I think it's a no brainer to be honest. Anyone trying to promote club hurling in Waterford will support this change. The only reason there is opposition to it is because it is being linked to Clashmore being allowed to stay in the intermediate grade. Clashmore were relegated for whatever reason they should play junior next year and so should all the senior attached teams .

HillFarmer

Hey All,

Does anyone have the list of names on the senior Hurling Panel this year?

I watched the drawn game against Cork last night and looking back on it Nagle had a super game. It is hard to fathom dropping him tbh.

I also wondered if Maurice was available could have got us over the line.
Anyone know if Maurice is on the panel this year?

Hard to pick a team for the league against Limerick with all the new lads around.

stumblingblock

Panel hasn't been finalised yet, or anything close to it I would imagine. Maurice was asked back alright to the best of my knowledge. Agree on Nagle. I know he had his flaws but I refuse to beleive he had nothing to offer the panel. Lots of experience at this stage. Richie Foley another who got a fierce raw deal. Was looking forward to seeing him have an injury free season for the first time in a long while I thought he couldve been a pivotal player after all the retirements of the last few years. Lawlor being dropped I can kind of understand. He wasn't able to train properly because of his knees over the past few years. He'd performed well in the championship up until this year but the game is probably up after the wexford game. He came up well short and it is probably time to move on

3ships

There was 36 players used in the December series (37 if you included the wexford keeper). There is another half dozen or so you would expect to feature and another couple you would hope to.


Taking a guess at Derek McGrath's league selection (players and positions)



SOK
TdeB
B Cough
N Connors
S Fives
A Gleeson
Ph Mahony
J Barron
M O Neill
Brick
Pa Mahony
Moran
Dunford
Dillon
BOS


16-26
Iggy
Shane McNulty
P Prender
GOB
SOS
Breathnach
BOH
D Fives – was on bench in Dec, will prob be eased into it
DJ
M Kearney
Cormac Curran



Other than that:
E Lynch – in goals
Tom Devine – if back from club will feature
Shane Roche – reported to be on panel but don't know
Michael Harney
David O Sullivan – reported to be on panel but don't know
Donnelly – think had a knock
Shane Bennett
Mark O Brien
Eddie Barrett
Tommy Connors


Conor Murray
Eamonn Power
Morrissey and a couple others



Def on Panel if fit
Daniels Shan Stephen Bennett


There is no official panel announced. We just know who is not on it..
It won't settle down till Championship between Winter Club/College commitments and the few injuries.



Not a bad panel to inherit considering the lads that were dropped as well.


A positive thing about a younger panel is at least most of the U21 players are training somewhere. No sign of an U21 manager yet

Mountainlad

Lawlor is more important to the team than Nagle or Foley. You could easily say the game is up with Nagle since about 2010, every time he comes up against pace he gets destroyed. Foley has had more injury problems than Lawlor in that time.

At the same time, can see the logic to Lawlor not being number one full back as its a precarious situation with the knees. But with Shane Fives still the most viable option to me at full back, he could have a role in helping him adjust his game for the position be cause he's brilliant at playing from the front, but needs to know when he has to just try and stop his man getting to the ball than stopping the ball getting to his man. He would have more valuable experience to offer in my opinion than any of those two or Shame Sully in that regard, and may still be able to contribute at full back if required when all is said and done.

At the moment we've no full back, but I don't think were stuck for wing backs or midfielders.

The blue blaa

Mountainlad wrote: »

Lawlor is more important to the team than Nagle or Foley. You could easily say the game is up with Nagle since about 2010, every time he comes up against pace he gets destroyed. Foley has had more injury problems than Lawlor in that time.

At the same time, can see the logic to Lawlor not being number one full back as its a precarious situation with the knees. But with Shane Fives still the most viable option to me at full back, he could have a role in helping him adjust his game for the position be cause he's brilliant at playing from the front, but needs to know when he has to just try and stop his man getting to the ball than stopping the ball getting to his man. He would have more valuable experience to offer in my opinion than any of those two or Shame Sully in that regard, and may still be able to contribute at full back if required when all is said and done.

At the moment we've no full back, but I don't think were stuck for wing backs or midfielders.

Mountainlad you hit the nail on the head 100% Shane Fives will be fullback when it comes to the crunch trust me on that one we have no other option.
Barry Coughlan is not an inter county fullback a grand lad an all that, he might do a job in the mud but come the hard ground he'd be ruined by a half decent full forward similar to what happened poor Lawlor, His day is up excellent servant to Waterford, bar the Wexford game he has always come out on top in big games. Against Wexford he was killed for pace from the off in that game an i wouldn't knock a lad over 1 game but he was steamrolled from all angles. However id much rather see a jersey go to an upcoming young lad rather then an a lad on the way out. But i couldn't stress enough how much admiration I'd have for him.

IanVW

Lads isnt BOS in the states this year?? Heard he was dropped

The blue blaa

IanVW wrote: »

Lads isnt BOS in the states this year?? Heard he was dropped

Dropped by who?? Derek doesnt drop Ballygunner lads specially young Brian.. All joking aside i did hear he's going away for the summer.

stumblingblock

The blue blaa wrote: »

Mountainlad you hit the nail on the head 100% Shane Fives will be fullback when it comes to the crunch trust me on that one we have no other option.
Barry Coughlan is not an inter county fullback a grand lad an all that, he might do a job in the mud but come the hard ground he'd be ruined by a half decent full forward similar to what happened poor Lawlor, His day is up excellent servant to Waterford, bar the Wexford game he has always come out on top in big games. Against Wexford he was killed for pace from the off in that game an i wouldn't knock a lad over 1 game but he was steamrolled from all angles. However id much rather see a jersey go to an upcoming young lad rather then an a lad on the way out. But i couldn't stress enough how much admiration I'd have for him.

Yea I think McGrath is pinning his hopes on coughlan growing into the fullback position. He did a good job for him there at colleges level but realistically this is a different level entirely. If memory serves me right coughlan didn't even make the co u21 team when he was up to the age. I'm not saying he's not worthy of a sshot I know he was the ucd Fitzgibbon full back last year but from what I've seen of him he's not aggressive enough to make it at this level

Mountainlad

stumblingblock wrote: »

Yea I think McGrath is pinning his hopes on coughlan growing into the fullback position. He did a good job for him there at colleges level but realistically this is a different level entirely. If memory serves me right coughlan didn't even make the co u21 team when he was up to the age. I'm not saying he's not worthy of a sshot I know he was the ucd Fitzgibbon full back last year but from what I've seen of him he's not aggressive enough to make it at this level

He was full back for the 21s in 2010, but only in my opinion because of the unavailability of another. Hes 26 next year, same age as Shane Fives. I'm sure hes a good hurler but as you said a different level, and the two acid tests vs Conor McGrath ( Cratloe) and Alan Cadogam ( Cork) he failed this year. Wouldn't be promoting him to full back on that basis.

HillFarmer

My 15 if I was the Manager and everyone was fit and available

SOK

Daniels S Fives Connors

Tadgh Brick D Fives

SOS K Moran

Maurice P MAhony A Gleeson

Bennet T Devine J Dillion


Not too sure on the full forward line, strong back 6 IMO and not sure if young Gleeosn is able to compete in the air, but I think it would the line can compete.


Whats is your opinions? I think Jake has gone back a bit and hope he can push on but I think his place shouldnt be a definite, I threw in devine but realistically he may or may not be out of his depth.

I considered BOS , for all the abuse he gets he is still well able to take a score.

Hurling man

I think Tadgh de Burc should be considered as full back he was brilliant there in the u 21 v Clare he also done very well when he went back there against Wexford last summer. He is strong and quick and could be full back for the next ten or twelve years.

HillFarmer

Hurling man wrote: »

I think Tadgh de Burc should be considered as full back he was brilliant there in the u 21 v Clare he also done very well when he went back there against Wexford last summer. He is strong and quick and could be full back for the next ten or twelve years.

Do you not think Fives would do well?

You may have a point, I wonder would Tadhg be waisted there