Bog cutting this week.

MadsL

onefourreal wrote: »

Madsl,

But if its from a blanket bog it should be fair game the more the merrier.

Oh I see, but if Bord Na Mona cut it, then what about poor old Patsy and Jonnie?

The fact is, once it is cut then there is no way to know if Patsy has a sideline supplying trailerloads.

onefourreal

Bishop,
In my opinion i think it is wrong to shine all the spotlight on jonnie and patsy and none on BNM.

runawaybishop

onefourreal wrote: »

Bishop,
In my opinion i think it is wrong to shine all the spotlight on jonnie and patsy and none on BNM.

BNM aren't cutting illegally though.

onefourreal

madsl,

Whether jonnie and patsy or BNM cut from the blanket bog there should be no problem.
both of them have removed peat from a non living sterile area.

HeidiHeidi

onefourreal wrote: »

Bishop,
In my opinion i think it is wrong to shine all the spotlight on jonnie and patsy and none on BNM.

Jesus, rarely have I seen a thread so dragged sideways :eek:

What BNM are doing is NOT ILLEGAL. The bit they were doing that was illegal, they stopped when told to, and gave the bogs back to the State.

What Johnny and Patsy are doing on the SAC bogs IS ILLEGAL. As the law currently stands. Let Johnny and Patsy campaign for a repeal/change to the law if they like (and from what I gather they had the last 10 years to do this), but you can't just pick and choose what laws you keep or break depending on how they suit you.

They have been offered alternatives (more than one, so they even have a choice).

There is a tiny area of these special bogs left, Johnny and Patsy will single-handedly destroy them for ever if they keep it up. BNM are not cutting any of these special bogs any more, so they do not enter into the equation of discussing SAC bogs.

That's my city-bound view of it anyway, I'm sure you'll find lots of holes in my theory, but I'm not going to enter into an argument about it. I'm just unbelievably frustrated at you constantly dragging the thread off-topic with spurious examples and comparisons :mad:

onefourreal

HeidiHeidi,

I am just highlighting how very Irish this is.
Raised bogs are out of the question,yet its open season in he blanket bogs?

runawaybishop

onefourreal wrote: »

HeidiHeidi,

I am just highlighting how very Irish this is.
Raised bogs are out of the question,yet its open season in he blanket bogs?

Why is this "very Irish", is willfully disregarding laws somehow "Irish"? Raised bogs are rarer and are protected. Blanket bogs are not so rare and are in many cases ****ed anyway.

onefourreal

Bishop,
all the reason to save whats left of them.

Sofiztikated

So when does onefourreal get the medal for spectacularly missing each and every point over the last 70 or so posts?

The protected bogs are important, because there is fúck all left that can be saved.

The other bogs are important, but there's a fúckton more of them.

That is the essence of the argument.

HeidiHeidi

onefourreal wrote: »

HeidiHeidi,

I am just highlighting how very Irish this is.
Raised bogs are out of the question,yet its open season in he blanket bogs?

Blanket bogs have not been declared SACs though. I can't argue for or against this decision (I'm hugely interested in all the info that has been available on this thread, for which thanks to all the posters!), except to say that I trust (maybe foolishly, I don't know) that the decision was taken on the basis of expert evidence and advice. In the end of the day, that's the decision that was made, and that's where the line was drawn - it had to be drawn somewhere.

I think you're right about BNM being a problem in a different way, but the current tussle/protests/blockades/actions are about the SAC bogs, which are almost extinct, and will be extinct soon if Johnny and Patsy keep up their antics. But we also have problems with people burning heather/scrub illegally and taking half the county out with them, with people cutting hedgerows during the prohibited nesting season, with fly-tipping and dumping the sludge from diesel-laundering in ditches. All of these, and a million other things including BNM cutting their remaining bogs, impact on the environment, but they are NOT an argument for J & P to keep illegally cutting bogs that are almost gone, in defiance of laws/directives that have been put in place specifically to preserve the last shred of those bogs.

runawaybishop

onefourreal wrote: »

Bishop,
all the reason to save whats left of them.

Yes, as I and many others have already stated.

onefourreal

Sofiztaked,
i have never said that raised bogs are not important, not once.
the blanket bogs will be in the same situation as the raised bogs if cutting is not stopped on them either.
there may be a f££kton of them now as you crudely put it. but for how long?
It is a very irish solution.

runawaybishop

onefourreal wrote: »

Sofiztaked,
i have never said that raised bogs are not important, not once.
the blanket bogs will be in the same situation as the raised bogs if cutting is not stopped on them either.
there may be a f££kton of them now as you crudely put it. but for how long?
It is a very irish solution.

No, it was an EU solution working in partnership with nwps. Legislating so that the most vulnerable sites are protected first is the correct procedure. What's Irish about that?

onefourreal

Bringing it in '92 and kicking the can down the road until an em-pass at a district court in 2013

runawaybishop

onefourreal wrote: »

Bringing it in '92 and kicking the can down the road until an em-pass at a district court in 2013

Yes, they should have ****ed the turf cutters out years ago, but they tried to be more sympathetic. Clearly that didnt work, so now they should be seizing equipment, cutting off the payments and prosecuting offenders.

onefourreal

bishop,

I drive past the BNM. bog at Rochfortbridge weekly and look out on what i can only describe as a Plain of destruction.

I look at the cutters in fear cutting there small plots while being filmed and watched by gardai, and ask is this fair?

HeidiHeidi

onefourreal wrote: »

Bringing it in '92 and kicking the can down the road until an em-pass at a district court in 2013

Jesus, it's like juggling jelly trying to discuss this with you. And I said I wouldn't

So now the problem isn't that Johnny and Patsy are being (or should be) prevented from cutting the last remaining bit of SAC bogs that we have, it's that action wasn't taken years ago, and on a grander scale altogether encompassing both Johnny and Patsy, AND Bord Na Mona

You can't have it every way, you know.

If there's this much trouble doing it the measured and gradual way they did, what on earth hope would they have had doing it the other way?

Anyway, the goalposts have been moved again, and I'm now dizzy from it all. I'm off out sailing (a nice, environmentally friendly sport )

runawaybishop

onefourreal wrote: »

bishop,

I drive past the BNM. bog at Rochfortbridge weekly and look out on what i can only describe as a Plain of destruction.

I look at the cutters in fear cutting there small plots while being filmed and watched by gardai, and ask is this fair?

Yes, its fair. These cutters were provided with plenty of alternatives and are cutting on an entirely different bog type than the current BNM sites you are seeing. BNM have already stopped cutting on raised bogs.

HeidiHeidi

onefourreal wrote: »

bishop,

I drive past the BNM. bog at Rochfortbridge weekly and look out on what i can only describe as a Plain of destruction.

I look at the cutters in fear cutting there small plots while being filmed and watched by gardai, and ask is this fair?

One last time.....

What BNM is doing is NOT ILLEGAL.

What the cutters are doing IS ILLEGAL.

Which bit of that don't you get?

OpenYourEyes

onefourreal wrote: »

bishop,

I look at the cutters in fear cutting there small plots while being filmed and watched by gardai, and ask is this fair?

I've seen none in fear - all seem to be very cocky about their ignorance.

Yes it is fair - you've displayed that you don't have much of an understanding of the situation and the reasons behind the whole thing - do some extra reading (or read the links provided for you) and it'll be quite obvious that it is fair - its mildly inconvenient at most.

onefourreal

HeidiHeidi,

Do you condone Rochfortbridge?
Percentage wise, what do the cutters cut in relation to BNM?
BNM cut turf on living blanket bogs that a thin line separates protected and non protected blanket bogs.
A state agency like BNM decides what is protected and non protected.

OpenYourEyes

onefourreal wrote: »

HeidiHeidi,

A state agency like BNM decides what is protected and non protected.

This is more appropriate in the conspiracy theory forum, or if there's an outright lie forum it'd be welcome there too I'm sure.

MadsL

onefourreal wrote: »

Bringing it in '92 and kicking the can down the road until an em-pass at a district court in 2013

You want to know about "kicking the can down the road" try this.

Patsy and Jonnie kicked up stink about this in 2001 - 2002, "ahhh here what about our traditions" they won a derogation for ten years.

Patsy and Jonnie then sat on their hole for ten years looking at their big energy inefficient range.

Then now the ban has come into force Patsy and Jonnie play the victim and plead for subsidies to the tune of €22,500 paid by the taxpayer. Then Big Mick, the lad with the sausage machine and JCB has been too dim to get out the turf business with ten years notice starts with the Ming agitated "he-victions, is all it is" sh1te about "traditional" turf cutting, off he goes and starts cutting everyones's turf whether they like it or not and stirs up a whole bunch of psuedo-heritage babble and talk about "our boys".

That.

That is an Irish solution.

onefourreal

openyoureyes,
this is fact, not lie or theory.

joela

MadsL wrote: »

You want to know about "kicking the can down the road" try this.

Patsy and Jonnie kicked up stink about this in 2001 - 2002, "ahhh here what about our traditions" they won a derogation for ten years.

Patsy and Jonnie then sat on their hole for ten years looking at their big energy inefficient range.

Then now the ban has come into force Patsy and Jonnie play the victim and plead for subsidies to the tune of €22,500 paid by the taxpayer. Then Big Mick, the lad with the sausage machine and JCB has been too dim to get out the turf business with ten years notice starts with the Ming agitated "he-victions, is all it is" sh1te about "traditional" turf cutting, off he goes and starts cutting everyones's turf whether they like it or not and stirs up a whole bunch of psuedo-heritage babble and talk about "our boys".

That.

That is an Irish solution.

Spot on except they threw their toys out of the pram first in 1998 rather than 01/02 but otherwise excellent summary. Poor starving, cold turf cutters losing their heritage my backside.

onefourreal

Madsl,
you are going away from my point of the cutters harvest and BNM harvest.
What is it as percentage?

MadsL

onefourreal wrote: »

HeidiHeidi,

Do you condone Rochfortbridge?
Percentage wise, what do the cutters cut in relation to BNM?

onefourreal

Percentage-wise what percentage do tiger poachers kill compared to cattle farming in Meath?

BNM cut turf on living blanket bogs that a thin line separates protected and non protected blanket bogs.

BnM are cutting on bogs damaged beyond repair - BnM have handed back active raised bogs that are now in State ownership and under protection.

"Living" blanket bogs are not under SAC protection as there is no actual category for them - "Active" bogs are protected weather raised or blanket. BnM are NOT, repeat NOT. I'll say it again NOT cutting ANY bog deemed "active" raised bog.

A state agency like BNM decides what is protected and non protected.

It would help if you read the answers you have been given. What is protected has NOTHING to do with BnM. It is decided at EU level. Your statement is simply wrong.

MadsL

onefourreal wrote: »

Madsl,
you are going away from my point of the cutters harvest and BNM harvest.
What is it as percentage?

It is not the SAME stuff.

As I indicated above it is as relevant as comparing cattle farming with tiger poaching.

Ireland has less than 1% of the area of ACTIVE RAISED BOG it once had.

Your point about harvest is like saying we now have less than 1% of the Cod stock we used to have, but sure what is that compared to the amount of Mackerel fished.

Please, please try and understand this before one of us dies.

MadsL

joela wrote: »

Spot on except they threw their toys out of the pram first in 1998 rather than 01/02 but otherwise excellent summary. Poor starving, cold turf cutters losing their heritage my backside.

Thanks, I couldn't be arsed looking up the exact date of the pram.

onefourreal

Madsl,

no category that's handy for them
without referencing tigers.
what is the percentage of turf harvested by BNM in relation to the cutters annually?

joela

onefourreal wrote: »

Madsl,

no category that's handy for them
without referencing tigers.
what is the percentage of turf harvested by BNM in relation to the cutters annually?

Are you a member of one of these turf cutting groups? If you are then you should just admit it rather than submit us to this ongoing circular non-argument. This is the kind of rubbish that these groups do in order to try to gain sympathy and deflect from the fact that they are breaking the law and destroying declining habitat in the process.

TheChizler

onefourreal wrote: »

Madsl,

no category that's handy for them
without referencing tigers.
what is the percentage of turf harvested by BNM in relation to the cutters annually?

weight of raised bog cut by BMN
______________________________ = 0
weight of raised bog cut by cutters

MadsL

onefourreal wrote: »

Madsl,

no category that's handy for them
without referencing tigers.
what is the percentage of turf harvested by BNM in relation to the cutters annually?

I'm going to say this once more. Then I am going to assume that you simply cannot understand it and give up.

Lets assume that the rare (1% of it left) turf cut by cutters on active raised bog is a rare substance called Obtainium.
Lets assume that common turf cut by BnM and others is called Plentium.

Got it?

Now, what has the easy availability of Plentium got to do with how rare Obtainium has become???

You banging on about what percentage is as relevant as how much coal is dug in Poland compared to diamonds found in South Africa.

Got it now? If not PLEASE do tell what is hard about the examples I have given you.

onefourreal

Joela,

i am not a member of a turf group but even if i was why should i not come on here and discuss a topic?
Madsl referenced that only 1% of raised bog remains.
who cut it?
jonnie and patsy certainly did not,
so why should they take the blame for it?
Google Map the Midlands and tell me jonnie and patsy should take the blame.
Furthermore what is the figure for the tonnage of turf harvested by BNM annually?
How much Flora and Fauna do they disturb? regardless of what category the bog is conveniently in.

MadsL

onefourreal wrote: »

Madsl referenced that only 1% of raised bog remains.

Active raised bog.

who cut it?

40% of it was cut under Turbary rights.

Turbary or the right of private individuals to cut turf for domestic use has been carried on for centuries in rural areas of Ireland. Since the 15th century traditional turbary has been responsible for the loss of 470,247ha of raised and blanket bogs or 40% of the original peatland area in the Republic of Ireland.

Source

jonnie and patsy certainly did not,

No, they hired Big Mick and his JCB and Difco.

so why should they take the blame for it?

Because that is the way ownership or turbary works. They could, you know just, errm, stop. And have €22500 thrown at them. Seems fair when they probably could buy a year's worth for €700-800.

Google Map the Midlands and tell me jonnie and patsy should take the blame.

You are still struggling to understand all bogs are not alike aren't you.
Tell me, where do jonnie and patsy live? Near one of these?
http://www.npws.ie/media/npws/53%20SACs.doc

Furthermore what is the figure for the tonnage of turf harvested by BNM annually?

Twenty million Plentiums.

How much Flora and Fauna do they disturb? regardless of what category the bog is conveniently in.

Do you think categories might just be relevant? Or are blanket bog and raised bog EXACTLY the same? Are Cod and Mackeral the same. Tigers and Cows?

*Thud*

*Thud*

*Thud*

*Thud*

The sound of my head hitting the desk...

I have a headache.

onefourreal

Madsl,

if they keep cutting the plentium it will change category to an obtanium.
i dispute the 40% figure given the arsenal of machinery that BNM has.
Should it be open season in the blanket bogs?
Again i ask and i fail to get an answer,are blanket bogs non-living and sterile?
Are they worth saving?

TheChizler

onefourreal wrote: »

if they keep cutting the plentium it will change category to an obtanium.

And if they keep cutting the obtanium, well before plentium goes into the same rare category it will become GONEIUM.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

MadsL wrote: »

When did a JCB = culture??? This is mechanised strip mining.

And 'steal'? Seriously?

No-one has picked up a slean up there for 30 years I'll bet.

Turf cutting is not strip mining.
How Bord na Mona mill peat is strip mining.
They are very different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_mining

MadsL

onefourreal wrote: »

Madsl,

if they keep cutting the plentium it will change category to an obtanium.

No it won't - plentium is a different thing to obtanium. Plentium is only found on blanket bog, obtanium is found on raised bog. If you cut until there is no more Plentium it still will not create obtanium.

I am glad that you do now recognise that it comes in obtanium and plentium categories. We are getting somewhere.

i dispute the 40% figure given the arsenal of machinery that BNM has.

BnM only came into existence in 1946. Turf has been cut for centuries.

Should it be open season in the blanket bogs?

If they are active blanket bogs, absolutely not. BnM are not cutting active blanket bog. If it is damaged bog that is unrepairable, then it should not be cut in my view but that is debatable. It is certainly not illegal to cut it.

Again i ask and i fail to get an answer,are blanket bogs non-living and sterile?

Of course not, but once they are drained the habitat has dramatically changed and after a point they are impossible to repair/restore.

Are they worth saving?

The ones that BnM are cutting are beyond saving, even if we wanted to save them. Anything worth saving BnM have already stopped work on and handed over for conservation.

Sofiztikated

MadsL wrote: »

Active raised bog.



40% of it was cut under Turbary rights.

Source


No, they hired Big Mick and his JCB and Difco.


Because that is the way ownership or turbary works. They could, you know just, errm, stop. And have €22500 thrown at them. Seems fair when they probably could buy a year's worth for €700-800.


You are still struggling to understand all bogs are not alike aren't you.
Tell me, where do jonnie and patsy live? Near one of these?
http://www.npws.ie/media/npws/53%20SACs.doc


Twenty million Plentiums.



Do you think categories might just be relevant? Or are blanket bog and raised bog EXACTLY the same? Are Cod and Mackeral the same. Tigers and Cows?

*Thud*

*Thud*

*Thud*

*Thud*

The sound of my head hitting the desk...

I have a headache.

Can you imagine having to deal with people like that for a living?

Onefourreal: For intents and purposes, it doesn't matter who cut it to the point of destruction. What matters is who is CONTINUING TO CUT IT NOW!

Is BnM continuing to cut on active raised bogs? No.
Is Patsy and Spudhead continuing to cut on active raised bogs? Yes.
Have they been given alternatives and/or paid to stop? Yes.
Is turf the only available fuel source to these people? No.
Will any fines placed against Ireland be paid by you, me and everyone else? Yes.
Am I an ignorant city envirowarrior? No.

I'll be honest, my main concern about money. I am fed the fúck up of the prevalent Irish attitude of "I'll do what I want, because I alway have. And shure, aren't they worse?!" The usual argument also ends up involving someone saying ""Shure, tis dat EU, who are dey to tell us what we can and can't do."

These bog cutters have been giving ample time, and payment, to stop cutting bogs. They haven't. It's not fúcking difficult to understand. And if you really, REALLY can't grasp the concept, then I fear for your safety, as concepts much like "Don't touch the fire, it's hot" and "Don't jump of really high buildings, it'll hurt" seem to escape you.

Fúck sake. Do I like paying out more and more ****ing money, because morons can't see past their own fúcking tiny, self absorbed piece of importance. No. It's moronic, self absorbed, and it shouldn't be my fúcking problem. But it is.

Jesus. Fúcking. Christ.

onefourreal

The 20 million plentiums thatBNM harvest, given a density of 2 tonne per cubic metres works out at 10 million cubic metres if you were to lay that out in a strip 10 metres wide and one metre deep it would stretch for 1000 kilometres in length.
Do you mean to tell me that no flora and fauna were killed in its extraction?
Jonnie and Patsy would have some bill from big mick for that amount of plentiums.
If Jonnie and Patsy had a hay shed 30'by 15' and 15' high it would give them 681 cubic metres in volume.
that would fill 14684 hay sheds.big mick would be in forbes rich list.

joela

onefourreal wrote: »

The 20 million plentiums thatBNM harvest, given a density of 2 tonne per cubic metres works out at 10 million cubic metres if you were to lay that out in a strip 10 metres wide and one metre deep it would stretch for 1000 kilometres in length.
Do you mean to tell me that no flora and fauna were killed in its extraction?
Jonnie and Patsy would have some bill from big mick for that amount of plentiums.
If Jonnie and Patsy had a hay shed 30'by 15' and 15' high it would give them 681 cubic metres in volume.
that would fill 14684 hay sheds.big mick would be in forbes rich list.

Seriously, this has gotten ridiculous. Are you really unable to grasp the issue or are you just trolling?

OpenYourEyes

onefourreal wrote: »

openyoureyes,
this is fact, not lie or theory.

The only problems are a) no facts that support it, b) it ignores existing facts

TheChizler

onefourreal wrote: »

The 20 million plentiums thatBNM harvest, given a density of 2 tonne per cubic metres works out at 10 million cubic metres if you were to lay that out in a strip 10 metres wide and one metre deep it would stretch for 1000 kilometres in length.

You are incorrect, plentium has a density of 2x10^6 kg / m^3

onefourreal

Sofiztikated,

i have never vouched for or encouraged anyone to cut on raised bogs.
i am merely pointing out an overlooked fact.
do you feel the need to swear when you are questioned?

MadsL

TheChizler wrote: »

You are incorrect, plentium has a density of 2x10^6 kg / m^3

When footed. :rolleyes:

onefourreal

Chizler, and that translates to a density of?

MadsL

onefourreal wrote: »

Sofiztikated,

i have never vouched for or encouraged anyone to cut on raised bogs.
i am merely pointing out an overlooked fact.
do you feel the need to swear when you are questioned?

What "overlooked fact"?

onefourreal

joela,
i think trolling is a term of abuse.

onefourreal

Madsl,

That BNM still and will actively harvest turf for the next 40 years from an eco -system.