Buying Property in London

Fysh

Long Gone wrote: »

Difficult to argue with that - If they can't get a job in London then why should you have a right to stay in some of the most valuable property in the UK at the UK taxpayer's expense - On Yer Bike San !

I disagree, personally. Other areas don't want to have "undesirables" offloaded onto them, and one of the things that London has going for it is a fairly good setup as far as creating or reinforcing ghettos is concerned. This is very similar to how the City of Westminster borough handle homelessness (essentially forcibly removing anyone perceived to be homeless into another borough).

It's not a solution; at best it's sleight-of-hand to hide the root problem, such as trying to change the focus from "the ridiculous demand for housing" to "those people I keep hearing about who've never done a day's work in their lives".

Olive8585

Fysh wrote: »

I disagree, personally. Other areas don't want to have "undesirables" offloaded onto them, and one of the things that London has going for it is a fairly good setup as far as creating or reinforcing ghettos is concerned. This is very similar to how the City of Westminster borough handle homelessness (essentially forcibly removing anyone perceived to be homeless into another borough).

It's not a solution; at best it's sleight-of-hand to hide the root problem, such as trying to change the focus from "the ridiculous demand for housing" to "those people I keep hearing about who've never done a day's work in their lives".

I think it is a valid point though. If people who are working their holes off can't afford to live in London and have to commute from Milton Keynes or Hemel Hempsted or wherever every day, why should someone who is not working and has not worked in years get to live in prime real estate in central London? You hear all the 'it's not fair that people have to move away from their families' stuff, but that's exactly what everyone else has to do. You have a situation in London where many people who are living on benefits are much better off than people working hard. Just look at all the council flats in the best parts of central London. What working person could afford to live there paying market rate rent?

Long Gone

Olive8585 wrote: »

I think it is a valid point though. If people who are working their holes off can't afford to live in London and have to commute from Milton Keynes or Hemel Hempsted or wherever every day, why should someone who is not working and has not worked in years get to live in prime real estate in central London? You hear all the 'it's not fair that people have to move away from their families' stuff, but that's exactly what everyone else has to do. You have a situation in London where many people who are living on benefits are much better off than people working hard. Just look at all the council flats in the best parts of central London. What working person could afford to live there paying market rate rent?

Thank you Olive - My point exactly. And do you know what really amazes me ? Some of these people receiving thousands of pounds from the hardworking taxpayers each month show absolutely no appreciation for it whatsoever, just moan that it's not enough ! They think that they're somehow entitled to all this for doing nothing ! It's about time they were given a dose of reality.

Jack B. Badd

Let's get this thread back on the topic of buying property in London.

Playboy

I think there needs to be huge increase in affordable housing in central london. I really dont know how people working on modest salaries afford to commute in from Kent etc when rail fares are so high. People are squeezed from all sides and its becoming unsustainable as djpbarry said earlier.

I really hope that there are restrictions on who can buy homes in these planned new Garden Cities. There should be a large portion of them made available as affordable homes, shared ownership etc and the others should be restricted to first time buyers or families/individuals who are selling their home. They should absolutely be protected from the landlord/investor market. Of course that wont happen

djpbarry

Playboy wrote: »

People are squeezed from all sides and its becoming unsustainable as djpbarry said earlier.

I do think every time I go into a coffee shop near my work place how it could possibly be worthwhile for the staff there to persist with London life - they must be spending two thirds of their income on rent and/or commuting.

I mean, I'm by no means well paid by London standards and my rent is at the upper limit of what I'm prepared to pay. My current contract is due to expire in a few months and I'm really starting to question if staying in London is worthwhile. But people working on low incomes in London must have absolutely no lives whatsoever. What's the point in living in London if you can't afford to enjoy it?

Olive8585

djpbarry wrote: »

I do think every time I go into a coffee shop near my work place how it could possibly be worthwhile for the staff there to persist with London life - they must be spending two thirds of their income on rent and/or commuting.

I mean, I'm by no means well paid by London standards and my rent is at the upper limit of what I'm prepared to pay. My current contract is due to expire in a few months and I'm really starting to question if staying in London is worthwhile. But people working on low incomes in London must have absolutely no lives whatsoever. What's the point in living in London if you can't afford to enjoy it?

Because for many people, it's better than living elsewhere and not being able to get a job. I couldn't get a job in my hometown where the cost of living is low and where my family is, so I'm here. Living in London and not being able to afford it is pretty bad, but not as bad as being on the dole or working in a meat packing plant because that's all there is where you live. At least I'm in a real job, which I can put on my CV, which will give me experience which will hopefully mean more flexibility of location one day, or at least a higher salary to stay in London.

Plus, if people like those in the coffee shops decided to leave, what would happen? The low paid workers are the most essential workers. Would you like to live in a London with no cafes, no binmen, no street cleaners, no nurses...? It's disgusting that the government have let this happen, that 'normal' people have been totally priced out of the capital. Let's see how long it takes the politicians to do something about the housing crisis when they no longer have the Filipinas to clean their houses and staff their hospitals, the Poles to make their coffee and the cockney blokes to take their rubbish.

afatbollix

Doesnt help when flats like this are snapped up in 16 hours!

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-30681834.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=sharing&utm_campaign=renting

S.M.B.

I was going to make the exact same post. Depressing stuff.

djpbarry

Olive8585 wrote: »

Because for many people, it's better than living elsewhere and not being able to get a job.

But it's not a binary choice between your home-town and London - it's a big world out there.

Olive8585 wrote: »

Plus, if people like those in the coffee shops decided to leave, what would happen? The low paid workers are the most essential workers. Would you like to live in a London with no cafes, no binmen, no street cleaners, no nurses...?

I can't believe you're equating nurses with binmen and street cleaners, but anyway...

That is precisely my point. As I said, I've reached a stage where the cost of housing has gotten so utterly ridiculous (I've just received an email from our letting agent seeking a 10% increase in rent - go **** yourself son) that I'm giving serious consideration to leaving London. I really don't want to, as, generally speaking, I enjoy living here, I like my job and I don't want to move city again just yet. But, it's becoming increasingly difficult to justify the huge chunk of my income that's being spent on housing.

Now, if I'm thinking that, then I have to imagine that people earning considerably less than me (not that I'm earning that much) must really be thinking "what's the ****ing point"?

djpbarry

afatbollix wrote: »

Doesnt help when flats like this are snapped up in 16 hours!

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-30681834.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=sharing&utm_campaign=renting

FutureGuy

djpbarry wrote: »

I do think every time I go into a coffee shop near my work place how it could possibly be worthwhile for the staff there to persist with London life - they must be spending two thirds of their income on rent and/or commuting.

I mean, I'm by no means well paid by London standards and my rent is at the upper limit of what I'm prepared to pay. My current contract is due to expire in a few months and I'm really starting to question if staying in London is worthwhile. But people working on low incomes in London must have absolutely no lives whatsoever. What's the point in living in London if you can't afford to enjoy it?

A little of topic, but what would you think is well paid in London?

enda1

Funny anecdote from a film I was watching last night called The Long Good Friday which is fantastic by the way.

The cockney mob roll up to a "slum" in Brixton (http://goo.gl/maps/dsfgZ).
The look in disgust at the houses and conditions commenting on the poor bastards having to put up with such a life.

That was 1980, this is 2014. One of those slums now costs northwards of £800k. Go figure. (Yes I know it was just a film).

enda1

FutureGuy wrote: »

A little of topic, but what would you think is well paid in London?

It's kinda one of those, how long's a piece of string questions?
But I'd say these days that figure is approaching £50k.

S.M.B.

djpbarry, I have had similar thoughts recently. I love London and I'd happily stay here indefinitely but I'm now starting to weigh up my options.

I feel that it's reached a point where I'll never buy property here and the idea of handing over crazy money to pay someone elses extortionate mortgage.

I've been house sharing since I arrived in London and I want to get my own place at the end of this contract. I can't really justify handing over the going market rate on a monthly basis to do so. It sickens me a little.

djpbarry

enda1 wrote: »

FutureGuy wrote: »

A little of topic, but what would you think is well paid in London?

It's kinda one of those, how long's a piece of string questions?
But I'd say these days that figure is approaching £50k.

It is a difficult to one to answer. But, let’s try a quick back-of-an-envelope calculation…

In the context of this discussion, let’s use rent prices as a guideline. I’ve seen a few different figures quoted for average rent in Central London, but let’s say a couple sharing are paying £1,500 per month on average. Now, if they both abide by the conventional rule of not spending more than a third of one’s income on housing, they need a combined income of at least £4,500 per month after tax. So, if we assume they’re on equal incomes, that’s about £36,000 each per annum. So I guess if we want to give them a bit of breathing space, we’ll say £40k or above is a comfortable income.

Now, obviously, that’s for a couple with no dependents. Throw kids into the mix and that figure needs to move up quite a bit.

Regardless, based on my own personal experience, I'm guessing that most Londoners are on considerably less than £40k. I think I've seen an average figure of £36k quoted somewhere, but with so many big earners in The City, that figure is pretty meaningless and I think it’s reasonable to assume that the median figure would come in well below that.

Olive8585

djpbarry wrote: »

But it's not a binary choice between your home-town and London - it's a big world out there.

No, it's not, but for personal reasons I'm pretty much limited to the UK, and in the UK, London is really the best place for me to be working. I know there are lovely dirt cheap flats in Sheffield but they're no use to me if I can't get a job there.

I can't believe you're equating nurses with binmen and street cleaners, but anyway...

I'm not. You are. I included them in a list of what I consider low-paid and essential occupations. You're the one perpetrating snobbery by implying binmen and street cleaners are worth less than nurses. I know people who do all these jobs and they're all hard work, badly paid and essential.

That is precisely my point. As I said, I've reached a stage where the cost of housing has gotten so utterly ridiculous (I've just received an email from our letting agent seeking a 10% increase in rent - go **** yourself son) that I'm giving serious consideration to leaving London. I really don't want to, as, generally speaking, I enjoy living here, I like my job and I don't want to move city again just yet. But, it's becoming increasingly difficult to justify the huge chunk of my income that's being spent on housing.

Now, if I'm thinking that, then I have to imagine that people earning considerably less than me (not that I'm earning that much) must really be thinking "what's the ****ing point"?

Yeah. So you have a choice. You can just go. For a lot of people, as I've already said, living in London sucks but is still better than NOT living in London. I'm not even a super low earner, but I'd still rather be struggling by here than in my small town in Ireland where I probably wouldn't have a job at all. As I said, I'm limited as to how far I can go. Other people have their own ties to London. Those coffee shop workers might have kids who live here (this is the case for a few people I know - they want to be close to their kids who live in London with their mothers), they might be doing a great course at one of the universities, they might have relatives who need them, they might be gay and from a country where gay people are persecuted so feel free here...many reasons...those are just a few reasons of people I know here. I'm sure a lot of people just like living here. There is a lot to enjoy without money - beautiful parks, museums, festivals, general freedom and open-mindedness.

As I said (unfortunately all you took from that point was that I was equating nurses and binmen), if these people DID all just leave, you'd have a problem. Some of the lowest paid workers are also some of the most important. The city won't collapse if all the Antonias and Hugos earning six figure salaries as 'marketing executives' leave, but what would happen if all the service workers left?

djpbarry

Olive8585 wrote: »

No, it's not, but for personal reasons I'm pretty much limited to the UK, and in the UK, London is really the best place for me to be working...

But we’re not just talking about you, we’re speaking about Londoners in general, who come from all over the world.

Olive8585 wrote: »

I'm not. You are. I included them in a list of what I consider low-paid and essential occupations.

I know you did. My point is that nurses are not low paid – a fresh nursing graduate starts on £21.5 – 27.9, depending on experience, and that doesn’t include the London allowance. Those at the upper end of that scale would be earning more than I did when I first moved here and I’ve never considered myself low paid.

Anyway, not really relevant to the discussion.

Olive8585 wrote: »

Yeah. So you have a choice. You can just go. For a lot of people, as I've already said, living in London sucks but is still better than NOT living in London.

Again with the binary choice. I don’t really buy into the idea that all the low earners in London are here because they simply have nowhere else to go. That might be true in some cases, but I find it hard to believe that it applies to most.

Olive8585 wrote: »

The city won't collapse if all the Antonias and Hugos earning six figure salaries as 'marketing executives' leave, but what would happen if all the service workers left?

You think everything would be just dandy if all the big earners left? Seriously?

The point is that it doesn’t really matter what it is people do or what they earn. What does matter is that we have a situation where most people in London are spending far, far too much on housing, to the point that it’s becoming unaffordable to live here. That does not bode well for the city.

Olive8585

djpbarry wrote: »

But we’re not just talking about you, we’re speaking about Londoners in general, who come from all over the world.

Yes, which is why later I explained that plenty of other people are in a similar position to me.

I know you did. My point is that nurses are not low paid – a fresh nursing graduate starts on £21.5 – 27.9, depending on experience, and that doesn’t include the London allowance. Those at the upper end of that scale would be earning more than I did when I first moved here and I’ve never considered myself low paid.

Most I know start on about £21K, which isn't great.

Anyway, not really relevant to the discussion.
Again with the binary choice. I don’t really buy into the idea that all the low earners in London are here because they simply have nowhere else to go. That might be true in some cases, but I find it hard to believe that it applies to most.
You think everything would be just dandy if all the big earners left? Seriously?

The point is that it doesn’t really matter what it is people do or what they earn. What does matter is that we have a situation where most people in London are spending far, far too much on housing, to the point that it’s becoming unaffordable to live here. That does not bode well for the city.

So why are they here then? You asked that question and I've tried to answer it but you don't seem to want to acknowledge my points. Why do YOU think all those coffee shop workers you mentioned are here?

I didn't say everything would be dandy if ALL the big earners left. I said a lot of the low paid workers are essential and a lot of the high paid ones aren't. Yes, most people in London are spending too much on housing and it's already unaffordable to live here. But you seem to think the low paid workers like Costa staff should just leave. No?

Fysh

Further to the mod note on the previous page, either this thread gets back on the topic of buying property in London (and stop the squabbling) or it'll get closed as having run its course. If you want to have a discussion about the cost of living or renting in London, please start a new thread or post in the General Chat thread.

Long Gone

enda1 wrote: »

It's kinda one of those, how long's a piece of string questions?
But I'd say these days that figure is approaching £50k.

£50k ? ? - I wouldn't get out of bed for that.......

Personally I wouldn't buy property in London at the moment - If not quite a bubble the market has become seriously overheated and a correction must be imminent.