pigeons, trains, and other shananigans

caustic 1

Ok daughter just posed a few questions in our direction our being her father and I.
She is 16

1. If a lorry was driving down the road with a cargo of pigeons and hit a bump which sent all the pigeons up in their cages in flight would the lorry suddenly become lighter for that moment?

2. If you were standing on a moving train and jumped would you land in the same spot?

3. If you were travelling in a car doing 120 miles per hour and holding a gun which when fired the bullet could travel at 120miles per hour would the bullet leave the gun?

Thoughts please....:D

F1ngers

caustic 1 wrote: »

Ok daughter just posed a few questions in our direction our being her father and I.
She is 16

1. If a lorry was driving down the road with a cargo of pigeons and hit a bump which sent all the pigeons up in their cages in flight would the lorry suddenly become lighter for that moment?

2. If you were standing on a moving train and jumped would you land in the same spot?

3. If you were travelling in a car doing 120 miles per hour and holding a gun which when fired the bullet could travel at 120miles per hour would the bullet leave the gun?

Thoughts please....:D

Sounds like you can't answer your daughters homework questions and came on here for help.

kneemos

No
yes
yes.

Fr_Dougal

Is 16 legal?

Wacker The Attacker

Your daughter has already failed her IQ test

BNMC

Yes
Yes
No

caustic 1

Sounds like you can't answer your daughters homework questions and came on here for help

Still on holidays

Wacker The Attacker

Shoot the rose of Tralee at 100 miles an hour and shove a pigeon up Daithi O'Se' hole.

hansfrei

83

caustic 1

Shoot the rose of Tralee at 100 miles an hour and shove a pigeon up Daithi O'Se' hole.

Jump on the train and go home

stefan idiot jones

I remember reading somewhere a question similar to your pigeon one.
I think that although it should in theory be lighter, the down force/air displacement would affect the true accurate weight of the vehicle.

Could be wrong though.

Frosty McSnowballs

caustic 1 wrote: »

Ok daughter just posed a few questions in our direction our being her father and I.
She is 16

1. If a lorry was driving down the road with a cargo of pigeons and hit a bump which sent all the pigeons up in their cages in flight would the lorry suddenly become lighter for that moment?

2. If you were standing on a moving train and jumped would you land in the same spot?

3. If you were travelling in a car doing 120 miles per hour and holding a gun which when fired the bullet could travel at 120miles per hour would the bullet leave the gun?

Thoughts please....:D

1. Yes
2. Same spot on train - yes
3. A particular rifle fires a round at the speed of 980 meters per second. That equates to 2,192 mph....how fast is your car?

caustic 1

[QUOTE A particular rifle fires a round at the speed of 980 meters per second. That equates to 2,192 mph....how fast is your car?[/QUOTE]

Erm.. not quite that quick :rolleyes:

MadsL

caustic 1 wrote: »

Ok daughter just posed a few questions in our direction our being her father and I.
She is 16

1. If a lorry was driving down the road with a cargo of pigeons and hit a bump which sent all the pigeons up in their cages in flight would the lorry suddenly become lighter for that moment?

2. If you were standing on a moving train and jumped would you land in the same spot?

3. If you were travelling in a car doing 120 miles per hour and holding a gun which when fired the bullet could travel at 120miles per hour would the bullet leave the gun?

Thoughts please....:D

1. Cages are too small for pigeons to fly.
2. Jumping off a train is illegal.
3. A gun that fires a bullet at 120 mph is a rubbish gun.

Why is your daughters age relevant? Oh hang on.

1. She's too young to drive a lorry.
2. She needs to pay full fare unless she is on her way to school
3. She's too young to own a gun.

dxhound2005

caustic 1 wrote: »

Ok daughter just posed a few questions in our direction our being her father and I.
She is 16

1. If a lorry was driving down the road with a cargo of pigeons and hit a bump which sent all the pigeons up in their cages in flight would the lorry suddenly become lighter for that moment?

2. If you were standing on a moving train and jumped would you land in the same spot?

3. If you were travelling in a car doing 120 miles per hour and holding a gun which when fired the bullet could travel at 120miles per hour would the bullet leave the gun?

Thoughts please....:D

Thoughts.

You can't spell shenanigans.
This is the wrong place to ask.
You should let her use the internet.

kneemos

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

1. Yes
2. Same spot on train - yes
3. A particular rifle fires a round at the speed of 980 meters per second. That equates to 2,192 mph....how fast is your car?

The bullet would be traveling at 240mph.

Sofiztikated

1. I don't know
2. I don't pretend to know
3. I don't know.

Next.

Mint Sauce

MadsL wrote: »

1. Cages are too small for pigeons to fly.
2. Jumping off a train is illegal.
3. A gun that fires a bullet at 120 mph is a rubbish gun.

Why is your daughters age relevant?

I think the OP refers to jumping inside the carriage. Ie, if you jumped, would you move back down the carriage as the train moved forward.

:P

MadsL

Mint Sauce wrote: »

I think the OP refers to jumping inside the carriage. Ie, if you jumped, would you move back down the carriage as the train moved forward.

:P

Obviously not, duh!

Chancer3001

The pigeon thing won't make the lorry lighter cos of the downforce from the wings beating.

I read that in Focus science magazine before.

They also said idiot was a huge lorry that had a helicopter in the hold, and the helicopter took off and hovered, still inside the hold, it wouldn't way any less cos of the downforce ....

stefan idiot jones

What if you did this inside the train ?

caustic 1

stefan idiot jones wrote: »

What if you did this inside the train ?

eejits

YellowFeather

Your 16 year old daughter asked you those questions? I'd be asking where she got her weed.

Frosty McSnowballs

kneemos wrote: »

The bullet would be traveling at 240mph.

240 mph is only 107.29 mps

1000 mph = 447.04 mps x2 = 894.08 mps
192 mph = 85.88 mps

894.08 + 85.88 = 979.96 mps which when converted into mph = 2192

Mickey H

caustic 1 wrote: »

Ok daughter just posed a few questions in our direction our being her father and I.
She is 16

1. If a lorry was driving down the road with a cargo of pigeons and hit a bump which sent all the pigeons up in their cages in flight would the lorry suddenly become lighter for that moment?

2. If you were standing on a moving train and jumped would you land in the same spot?

3. If you were travelling in a car doing 120 miles per hour and holding a gun which when fired the bullet could travel at 120miles per hour would the bullet leave the gun?

Thoughts please....:D

1. No.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.

NuckingFacker

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

240 mph is only 107.29 mps

1000 mph = 447.04 mps x2 = 894.08 mps
192 mph = 85.88 mps

894.08 + 85.88 = 979.96 mps which when converted into mph = 2192

55+2=57 also. There's loads of others as well.

Frosty McSnowballs

NuckingFacker wrote: »

55+2=57 also. There's loads of others as well.

Banana - 78 = Benny Hill

NuckingFacker

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Banana - 78 = Benny Hill

Ah now stop, I never got fractions.

Frosty McSnowballs

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Ah now stop, I never got fractions.

Just wait until you get the sum of x from the isosceles of a mongoose. Solve for kit kat.

Ficheall

The answer to the first two questions is "no". What direction are you firing the gun in?

Actually - are you "on" the train or "in" it?

--Kaiser--

caustic 1 wrote: »

Ok daughter just posed a few questions in our direction our being her father and I.
She is 16

1. If a lorry was driving down the road with a cargo of pigeons and hit a bump which sent all the pigeons up in their cages in flight would the lorry suddenly become lighter for that moment?

2. If you were standing on a moving train and jumped would you land in the same spot?

3. If you were travelling in a car doing 120 miles per hour and holding a gun which when fired the bullet could travel at 120miles per hour would the bullet leave the gun?

Thoughts please....:D

1. Lorry stays the same weight, that weight can't just disappear.

2. No.

3. Yes it would.

diomed

On my train journeys I never see jumping gunmen shooting pigeons. Is that the northside?

Celly Smunt

Yo, science bitch.

Mickey H

diomed wrote: »

On my train journeys I never see jumping gunmen shooting pigeons. Is that the northside?

Red line.

--Kaiser--

Ficheall wrote: »

The answer to the first two questions is "no". What direction are you firing the gun in?

Actually - are you "on" the train or "in" it?

Good question.
On the train, you land in a different spot.
In the train you'd land in the same spot

Peregrine

1. The mass of the lorry won't change unless you physically change the lorry itself. Neither adding nor taking pigeons away from it changes the mass of the lorry.

2. Yes you will land on the same spot(assuming you're jumping up inside and the train is moving at a constant velocity). Believe it or not, when you jump you're still moving forward with the train. Think of a person sitting in a car, when the car suddenly brakes, why does the person move forward or go out the window unless something is stopping it? Because the person is still moving forward faster than the car.

3. Bullets are much much faster than that.

Ave Sodalis

1) No, if the birds were flying, they need to exert the same down pressure as their mass in order to fly. Therefore the air they push down will be the same as if they were sitting there.
2) If she was in the train, then you would land in the same spot because you would be traveling at the same speed. This is if the train moves at a constant speed. If it accelerates or decelerates, you will land in a different spot as you are no longer going at the same velocity. If she was to stand on top of the train, factors such as wind and air resistance would change her velocity in relation to the trains, so would land in a different spot.
3) The last one, hypothetically, if you were moving at the same speed as a bullet when firing the gun, (so for example, you were going 1000mph and a bullet leaves a gun at 1000mph), in relation to you, it would travel at 1000mph. In relation to the ground, however, it would be traveling at 2000mph. So yes, it would leave the gun.

Both two and three are the same really. They can both be answered through Newtons first law... "Every body persists in its state of rest or of uniform motion in a straight line unless it is compelled to change that state by forces impressed on it."

IceFjoem

caustic 1 wrote: »

Ok daughter just posed a few questions in our direction our being her father and I.
She is 16

1. If a lorry was driving down the road with a cargo of pigeons and hit a bump which sent all the pigeons up in their cages in flight would the lorry suddenly become lighter for that moment?

2. If you were standing on a moving train and jumped would you land in the same spot?

3. If you were travelling in a car doing 120 miles per hour and holding a gun which when fired the bullet could travel at 120miles per hour would the bullet leave the gun?

Thoughts please....:D

1. Yes. The lorry would be lighter.

sup_dude wrote: »

1) No, if the birds were flying, they need to exert the same down pressure as their mass in order to fly. Therefore the air they push down will be the same as if they were sitting there.

The downward force of the air would not be equivalent to the weight of the pigeons. The air is a fluid and would be displaced in all kinds of directions, not just straight down like some rocket's thrusters, although the exact force of the displaced air would be subject to how high off the cage floors the pigeons were also.

2. Yes. Assuming; you're inside the train and therefore experience no headwind, and the train is moving at a constant velocity you would remain in the same spot. If the train is speeding up or slowing down you will land in a different spot. The reason is that you are moving at exactly the same speed as the train.

If you jump while standing in your living room you won't fly across the room despite the fact that the earth is moving at a ferocious speed.

3. Yes. The bullet would leave the gun with the combined speed of the car and its own propulsion, eg. 240mph.

Super-Rush

I like Mythbusters.

Ave Sodalis

IceFjoem wrote: »

1. Yes. The lorry would be lighter. It's the equivalent of taking the pigeons off the lorry altogether.

I'm afraid not. There would be very little change in weight.

IceFjoem

sup_dude wrote: »

I'm afraid not. There would be very little change in weight.

Ye just realised there that I contradicted myself, woops! There would be a distinct change though, so the answer is still yes to question 1.

johnnyskeleton

caustic 1 wrote: »

1. If a lorry was driving down the road with a cargo of pigeons and hit a bump which sent all the pigeons up in their cages in flight would the lorry suddenly become lighter for that moment?

The mass would remain the same but the weight would change slightly depending on the relative gravitational pull. It would be virtually immeasurable though.

2. If you were standing on a moving train and jumped would you land in the same spot?

It depends on what direction you jumped but if you jumped straight up you would land slightly off the spot relative to the train and in a completely different spot relative to the rest of the universe. Unless, I think, if the train carriage is in a vacuum. In observable terms you would be in the same spot.

3. If you were travelling in a car doing 120 miles per hour and holding a gun which when fired the bullet could travel at 120miles per hour would the bullet leave the gun?

The question is wrong because the bullet doesn't travel it is propelled and the speed at which it is propelled is a function of many factors. But again, in observable terms if a gun can propel a bullet at 120mph from a standing position it will travel at 240mph if fired from a moving vehicle in a vacuum, and somewhere between 120mph and 240mph if subject to gravitational pull.

Now for my question, is the above all bull****?

EireIceMan

MadsL wrote: »

3. She's too young to own a gun.

Nope,
She can have a gun licence at 16, and a trainee licence at 14

caustic 1

caustic 1 wrote: »

1. If a lorry was driving down the road with a cargo of pigeons and hit a bump which sent all the pigeons up in their cages in flight would the lorry suddenly become lighter for that moment?

Mythbusters tested this one. There was no noticeable difference in the weight of the lorry.

Ave Sodalis

IceFjoem wrote: »

Ye just realised there that I contradicted myself, woops! There would be a distinct change though, so the answer is still yes to question 1.

There would be a very slight fluctuation in weight, both up and down. Essentially, there'd be no change.

IceFjoem

sup_dude wrote: »

There would be a very slight fluctuation in weight, both up and down. Essentially, there'd be no change.

But a slight fluctuation is a change!

Also there are no given dimensions to the pigeon's cages, the difference in weight is beholden to the height to which the pigeons rise off the cage floors. If the cages were 2 meters tall and the pigeons were to fly up to the top of their cages there would be almost negligible downward force from the displaced air.

2 meter cages of course would be ridiculous, but this example highlights the variables involved.

Cookie_Monster

Why would the weight of the lorry change? The weight of the cargo may change as some of the downward force of the wing beats will escape sideways through the cages and hence less downward pressure on the floor of the cage than the weight of a bird at rest.

caustic 1

some very smart folk frequent the AH..... a lot of folk who are smart ars es also, a different kind of smart entirely.

Ave Sodalis

IceFjoem wrote: »

But a slight fluctuation is a change!

Also there are no given dimensions to the pigeon's cages, the difference in weight is beholden to the height to which the pigeons rise off the cage floors. If the cages were 2 meters tall and the pigeons were to fly up to the top of their cages there would be almost negligible downward force from the displaced air.

In both directions though.

Yes, but they are in a truck. It's not just downwards but also outwards and upwards. The closed truck would mean that it circulates. Also, if it were closed cages.
EDIT: if it were an open top truck, and wire cages, then yeah, the truck would be lighter.

bnt

Super-Rush wrote: »

I like Mythbusters.

(1) was tried on Mythbusters, years ago. The pigeons flew in plenty of space, but the truck didn't get lighter. As noted above, the birds push air beneath their wings to force themselves off the ground, and that force is transferred to the truck.

As for questions (2) and (3), it helps to understand that, just by virtue of the Earth's rotation on its axis, you are currently moving at over 1340 km/h. Then there's the speed of the Earth around the Sun (averaging about 107,000 km/h), and the speed of the whole Solar System around the centre of the Milky Way.

You don't notice any of that, because it's all constant speed., which feels just like standing still. It's the same in a closed car and the closed train - closed because that means there's no moving air to affect the results. It doesn't make a difference in how a jump works or how a bullet fires.

MS.ing

caustic 1 wrote: »

Ok daughter just posed a few questions in our direction our being her father and I.
She is 16

1. If a lorry was driving down the road with a cargo of pigeons and hit a bump which sent all the pigeons up in their cages in flight would the lorry suddenly become lighter for that moment?

2. If you were standing on a moving train and jumped would you land in the same spot?

3. If you were travelling in a car doing 120 miles per hour and holding a gun which when fired the bullet could travel at 120miles per hour would the bullet leave the gun?

Thoughts please....:D

1 no, if anything it would be heavier from the down force of their wings technically but probably not measurable

2 yes. relaive to the train, no relative to the ground its moving over

3 yes