Phoenix Park tunnel

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

By starting & stopping them at Hazelhatch they can operate more trains but use the same resources.

Bear in mind that they only have four trains with which to run this service.

Maybe they can add a stop on your train, but looking at the trains around it, it would be very tight.

What stock is being used? 2700s?

LXFlyer

L1011 wrote: »

What stock is being used? 2700s?

22000 sets released by the return to service by the remaining Mark 4 sets.

L1011

Yay, more unsuited sets. Vestibules (that are insufficienly air conditioned) for ultra slow egress and overall not suited for standing

FredFunk

I examined the timetable more closely. For me there are 6 peak trains that don't seem to link up with any other services. They are stand alone journey's.
7.20am 8.10am and 9.12am inbound and
16.20, 16.40 and 18.16 outbound.
If the main purpose of the tunnel is to build up passengers in the 3 Dublin stations, Parkwest,Clondalkin and Adamstown then fair enough, but what it is ignoring the current passengers further out who are currently using intercity services for commuting.
Perhaps the 17.20 train to Limerick could stop in one of these stations to pick up passengers from the 16.40 GCD. It would be a small win.

LXFlyer

FredFunk wrote: »

I examined the timetable more closely. For me there are 6 peak trains that don't seem to link up with any other services. They are stand alone journey's.
7.20am 8.10am and 9.12am inbound and
16.20, 16.40 and 18.16 outbound.
If the main purpose of the tunnel is to build up passengers in the 3 Dublin stations, Parkwest,Clondalkin and Adamstown then fair enough, but what it is ignoring the current passengers further out who are currently using intercity services for commuting.
Perhaps the 17.20 train to Limerick could stop in one of these stations to pick up passengers from the 16.40 GCD. It would be a small win.

The 16:40 and 18:16 operate to Newbridge - hardly just serving the inner stations.

Inbound the 07:20 from Newbridge takes a connection off the 06:45 from Portlaoise at Sallins or Hazelhatch.

The 08:10 from Hazelhatch takes a connection out of the 07:17 at Hazelhatch.

Only the 09:12 doesn't take a connection but it starts at Newbridge too.

Or do Newbridge and Sallins not count as being valid stations for this service?

FredFunk

I think Newbridge and Sallins are good stations, but in isolation are they worthy of a trains which are not linked to other busy stations like Portlaoise, Portarlington and Kildare.
It has been mentioned than due to limit of stock you can increase the number of journeys by having turnaround at Sallins or Newbridge. This is no use if the journeys are not satisfying the majority of people.
I understand it is hard to please everybody but I see a lot of half empty trains while the Limerick train in the evening is jam packed and increasing as more people move further out of Dublin.

LXFlyer

FredFunk wrote: »

I think Newbridge and Sallins are good stations, but in isolation are they worthy of a trains which are not linked to other busy stations like Portlaoise, Portarlington and Kildare.
It has been mentioned than due to limit of stock you can increase the number of journeys by having turnaround at Sallins or Newbridge. This is no use if the journeys are not satisfying the majority of people.
I understand it is hard to please everybody but I see a lot of half empty trains while the Limerick train in the evening is jam packed and increasing as more people move further out of Dublin.

With respect when it comes to scheduling buses and trains, it is impossible to please everyone.

The trains to/from Newbridge serve five other stations, and most have a connection beyond Newbridge too. That's hardly serving Newbridge and Sallins in isolation.

The trains that turn at Hazelhatch in the evenings, only one doesn't have a connection beyond that station.

In the mornings all of the trains that start at Hazelhatch have a connection from further out.

I think you're misrepresenting the situation significantly.

If the Limerick train is already jam packed, do you think adding extra passengers into that situation is necessarily a good idea?

Frankly I think the problem you are trying to enunciate is that it doesn't serve your own personal commute. I would suggest that by and large they actually do facilitate an awful lot of commuters.

FredFunk

I don't expect it to satisfy all my needs.
Re the Limerick train being crammed, I would expect less passengers leaving Heuston if there was a connecting train from Grand Canal that could link up and therefore the numbers would even out.
While the destination is Limerick, this peak hour train is primarily a commuter train and is well emptied out by the time it gets to Portlaoise.
The users of these services incl the Galway, Cork and Waterford services currently get a decent service into Heuston, from there a significant number scramble down the quays by Luas, bus or Dublin Bikes. I think these commuters which I am only 1, represent a significant number of the passengers coming into Heuston.
The alternative proposed to them now is to get a slow train into Dublin and then possibly a connection to a tunnel train.
I estimate this will add 15-20 mins ew to their commutes and I can't see many switching over apart from the novelty factor.

NedNew2

I'm with you on this Fred, I would agree entirely that the way the timetable is structured is not convenient to anyone beyond Newbridge. There's a huge number of people from Kildare, Portlaoise, etc who will have to continue to use the Luas or bus to get to the city centre as the connections in Newbridge or Sallins are wholly inadequate. If these commuters are not catered for then it would be a very poor use of a potentially great asset.

Idbatterim

I dont know enough about this to comment, but those of you who seem to, should make your observations... isnt another advantage of the direct train, that it frees up capacity on luas red line also?

LXFlyer

People need to remember that this is only the start of this service and they may be setting their expectations unrealistically high.

There aren't going to be massive changes on the Heuston side until after the ballast cleaning programme is completed which I think should be by the end of 2017.

At that point I would expect a full Heuston timetable recast taking advantage of revised speed limits - and it's at that point that (along with the implementation of a clockface Connolly side timetable) this route can be exploited to the full by offering more connections.

It was only ever discussed as a Co. Kildare-Dublin service - when the timetable recast happens that I would expect better long distance connections.

FredFunk

Deedsie wrote: »

And potentially the M7/N7, Redcow, M50 etc etc hopefully anyway

Yes that is the whole idea, but it might be hard to get buy in from drivers if the train times to the centre/east of the city are no better than the current solution.

Unfortunately it comes back to poor overall planning.
Celbridge/Hazelhatch - is nowhere near Celbridge, rather than expanding Celbridge during the boom, they should have planned a new village around the Hazelhatch station.

Adamstown - The station is not close to the centre of the current development, it may be in the future, but again either they should have moved the station or built the heart of the village around the current station.

Clondalkin - nowhere near village or any densely populated areas.

Parkwest - didn't really work out. More suitable for cars.

All these stations could be turned around with better planning but in the meantime lets look after the large bulk of current customers.

LXFlyer

FredFunk wrote: »

Yes that is the whole idea, but it might be hard to get buy in from drivers if the train times to the centre/east of the city are no better than the current solution.

Unfortunately it comes back to poor overall planning.
Celbridge/Hazelhatch - is nowhere near Celbridge, rather than expanding Celbridge during the boom, they should have planned a new village around the Hazelhatch station.

Adamstown - The station is not close to the centre of the current development, it may be in the future, but again either they should have moved the station or built the heart of the village around the current station.

Clondalkin - nowhere near village or any densely populated areas.

Parkwest - didn't really work out. More suitable for cars.

All these stations could be turned around with better planning but in the meantime lets look after the large bulk of current customers.

With respect you're leaving out Sallins and Newbridge - virtually all of the GCD services offer a direct train or a connection to those stations too, contrary to your incorrect analysis earlier in the thread.

Parkwest could well see an improvement from outbound trains calling there in the morning from GCD and returning in the evening.

Grandeeod

lxflyer wrote: »

It was only ever discussed as a Co. Kildare-Dublin service - when the timetable recast happens that I would expect better long distance connections.

And herein lies the issue that some are alluding to. The discussion on the PPT was had long before the recasting of the entire Kildare route, which is now a Portlaoise - Dublin route. It tends to look like IE have applied a very outdated timetable to the project.

But maybe changes are planned and the whole route can be improved in the future.

Jamie2k9

It was only ever discussed as a Co. Kildare-Dublin service - when the timetable recast happens that I would expect better long distance connections.

Wouldn't be so sure about that because when the service is expanded it will likely allow a 30 minute service ex Newbridge or Hazelhatch so Portlaoise/GCD commuter services will be spaced and IC will continue to connect with Portlaoise as it's far more impotent to cross routing and cutting IC stops than giving people more access to Dublin where they have already a good number of options.

You might get the odd peak with good connections.

FredFunk

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect you're leaving out Sallins and Newbridge - virtually all of the GCD services offer a direct train or a connection to those stations too, contrary to your incorrect analysis earlier in the thread.

Parkwest could well see an improvement from outbound trains calling there in the morning from GCD and returning in the evening.

Yes but they are only 2 of the 6 busiest stations on the line.

If you are talking about linkage, the morning is not too bad with 6/7 trains linking with trains further out.
The evening is not as good with only 5/8 trains linking up with stations further out.

But linkage is only half the problem, speed is also crucial and that is the main failure.
The timetable is more about increasing numbers in the Dublin stations than pleasing the majority. Until they fix the issues I have highlighted before with these stations and areas, then I don't expect major footfall.
A good example was this morning where there were no buses available.
Despite this, the stations were still mostly empty with a few extra passengers using the line.

D Trent

Probably posted here before but some great shots of the tunnel captured by Dublin urbex

http://www.thejournal.ie/phoenix-park-train-tunnel-photos-2667448-Dec2016/?utm_source=facebook_short

Thrashssacre

Have loadings improved since the first two weeks of opperation?

Middle Man

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Have loadings improved since the first two weeks of opperation?

I guess it will take time for the service to catch on - the increasingly congested Naas Road is bound to act as an incentive for some Kildare commuters who happen to work near a railway (or Luas) line in Dublin.

I hope Irish Rail will give it a chance!

L1011

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Have loadings improved since the first two weeks of opperation?

Christmas happened in that time frame - useless to compare. Wait until all colleges etc are back in late January

Jamie2k9

Loading were good on the week before Christmas but most of Quad track stations are useless because there is no housing with low numbers if you compared to Hazelhatch out.

A park-n-ride facility at Parkwest station would work wonders.

Thrashssacre

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A park-n-ride facility at Parkwest station would work wonders.

Or better yet kishoge (if it ever opens) due to its proximity to major roads being linked to the n7 and n4 with a 2 lane road

Jamie2k9

Deleted User wrote: »

A park-n-ride facility at Parkwest station would work wonders.

Really don't think it would deliver massive benefits. Houses would.....

Or better yet kishoge (if it ever opens) due to its proximity to major roads being linked to the n7 and n4 with a 2 lane road

The Red Cow does the M7 and Kishoge wouldn't benefit many, if anything an hourly service over a 6 minute Luas service.

Jamie2k9

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Really don't think it would deliver massive benefits. Houses would.....
.

Drive into Dublin via N/M4 or 7 go onto the M50 get off at new junction get on train directly to city via PPT or go to Heuston.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The Red Cow does the M7 and Kishoge wouldn't benefit many, if anything an hourly service over a 6 minute Luas service.

If there was demand for such a service being more frequent, then it would be necessary to invest to make it possible.

Jamie2k9

Deleted User wrote: »

Drive into Dublin via N/M4 or 7 go onto the M50 get off at new junction get on train directly to city via PPT or go to Heuston.

If there was demand for such a service being more frequent, then it would be necessary to invest to make it possible.

So drive on the bussiest section of the M50 at peak times and just pass over the Red Cow P&R.

I don't see the volume been there.

Grandeeod

You don't need to go near the M50 to access Kishogue from the N4/7 and it is very accessible from both.

Jamie2k9

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So drive on the bussiest section of the M50 at peak times and just pass over the Red Cow P&R.

I don't see the volume been there.

The vast majority of commuters already do that right now.

Jamie2k9

Deleted User wrote: »

The vast majority of commuters already do that right now.

The vast majority of current commuters who drive won't change to a train.

I would support a lot more data on where a lot of traffic on the M50 goes as I suspect huge volumes are not headed for the core CBD in Dublin.

trellheim

Speaking as someone who is living close to the tunnel atm its been nice and quiet, the only time you''d notice is when a train gets stopped at a signal along the way and idles loudly for 10-15 min ( mainly freight tho )