Paying your childminder (when THEY are on holidays)

oldscoil

Hi Folks.

Firstly, I have a great relationship with my child-minder, and thins post is not directed at her, more at the current system of childcare.

I pay my child-minder €xxx amount a week to mind my child, this is cash in hand.

However for two weeks during the Summer she takes two weeks holidays and I have to make other arrangement, ask favours, take time off myself out my annual leave etc.

When I asked her about this initially she explained "its the norm amongst child-minders", but the more I think of it, I more I think:
"hang on a minute you're not paying any tax on that income, you should not be receiving the benefits of paid holidays"

I have worked a few cash in hand numbers in my day, and when I wasn't there to work I did not get paid.
I am being unfair?

After all if it was a crèche then fair enough as staff must be paid, rent must be paid, insurance must be paid etc etc.
But €xxx into the hand every week tax free, surely I am giving her money for nothing....

Can you please give me your opinions on this.

Thanks in advance.

gozunda

oldscoil wrote: »

Hi Folks.

Firstly, I have a great relationship with my child-minder, and thins post is not directed at her, more at the current system of childcare.

I pay my child-minder €xxx amount a week to mind my child, this is cash in hand.

However for two weeks during the Summer she takes two weeks holidays and I have to make other arrangement, ask favours, take time off myself out my annual leave etc.

When I asked her about this initially she explained "its the norm amongst child-minders", but the more I think of it, I more I think:
"hang on a minute you're not paying any tax on that income, you should not be receiving the benefits of paid holidays"

I have worked a few cash in hand numbers in my day, and when I wasn't there to work I did not get paid.
I am being unfair?

After all if it was a crèche then fair enough as staff must be paid, rent must be paid, insurance must be paid etc etc.
But €xxx into the hand every week tax free, surely I am giving her money for nothing....

Can you please give me your opinions on this.

Thanks in advance.

I don't quite get this post tbh

Do you mind her actually taking the holidays and / or getting paid holidays?

Whichever - You are in effect employing someone illegally. - ie you are not paying prsi, deducting tax and they therefore do not receive credits etc

I am sure you care for your children but if you prefer paying 'under the table' as part of 'current system of childcare' then to be honest I think that you could expect no guarantees.

Imo there is a difference in an individual employing a child carer or 'nanny' in the home and a 'Child Carer' that works from their own home or premises.

See

http://www.parentingsolutions.ie/blog/childcare-options-in-ireland/

(Door close)

Goes out gets coat and leaves country

Pro Hoc Vice

oldscoil wrote: »

Hi Folks.

Firstly, I have a great relationship with my child-minder, and thins post is not directed at her, more at the current system of childcare.

I pay my child-minder €xxx amount a week to mind my child, this is cash in hand.

However for two weeks during the Summer she takes two weeks holidays and I have to make other arrangement, ask favours, take time off myself out my annual leave etc.

When I asked her about this initially she explained "its the norm amongst child-minders", but the more I think of it, I more I think:
"hang on a minute you're not paying any tax on that income, you should not be receiving the benefits of paid holidays"

I have worked a few cash in hand numbers in my day, and when I wasn't there to work I did not get paid.
I am being unfair?

After all if it was a crèche then fair enough as staff must be paid, rent must be paid, insurance must be paid etc etc.
But €xxx into the hand every week tax free, surely I am giving her money for nothing....

Can you please give me your opinions on this.

Thanks in advance.

You do realise the issues you could be creating for yourself, those problems, a tax liability for PAYE and PRSI to be paid on behalf of your employee plus 8 hours for every 100 hours worked in holiday pay plus bank holiday entitlement.

Just because you and your employee have decided to evade tax liability does not give either if ye a right to continue to break the law when in suits.

Anniebell

oldscoil wrote: »

Hi Folks.

Firstly, I have a great relationship with my child-minder, and thins post is not directed at her, more at the current system of childcare.

I pay my child-minder €xxx amount a week to mind my child, this is cash in hand.

However for two weeks during the Summer she takes two weeks holidays and I have to make other arrangement, ask favours, take time off myself out my annual leave etc.

When I asked her about this initially she explained "its the norm amongst child-minders", but the more I think of it, I more I think:
"hang on a minute you're not paying any tax on that income, you should not be receiving the benefits of paid holidays"

I have worked a few cash in hand numbers in my day, and when I wasn't there to work I did not get paid.
I am being unfair?

After all if it was a crèche then fair enough as staff must be paid, rent must be paid, insurance must be paid etc etc.
But €xxx into the hand every week tax free, surely I am giving her money for nothing....

Can you please give me your opinions on this.

Thanks in advance.

First of all, childminders are not required to pay tax if they earn less than €15,000 per year, even though they must still be registered with Revenue to avail of this exemption.

Second of all, "money for nothing"?! This is very insulting to the person you have entrusted with the care of your child. If the agreement was that your minder gets paid for her holidays, then that is her prerogative. Usually these issues are discussed prior to any children starting with a new minder. You may indeed find that some minders don't charge for their time off.

Any childminders I know get paid for their holidays, are registered with Revenue for tax purposes and also have First Aid and other Childcare qualifications.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Tabnabs

You effectively have a relationship with them as a contractor who looks after your children in return for cash in hand. It's not up to you to enforce whether or not they pay their taxes etc. based on this understanding both parties have. Similarly you can't force them to take out insurance to cover your children in the event of an accident, nor enforce any legal child minding requirements. You're doing it on a budget.

In any normal circumstances, contractors are not paid for any time they have not actually worked. So in theory they have no entitlement to holiday pay.

On the other hand, this person is the primary care giver to your child for a large part of their week. Might be worth meeting them half way and explaining you're not flush with cash and there is already a cost involved for you to have the child looked after for this holiday period?

Sleepy

I think you should be paying your child-minder above board tbh.

Pro Hoc Vice

Tabnabs wrote: »

You effectively have a relationship with them as a contractor who looks after your children in return for cash in hand. It's not up to you to enforce whether or not they pay their taxes etc. based on this understanding both parties have. Similarly you can't force them to take out insurance to cover your children in the event of an accident, nor enforce any legal child minding requirements. You're doing it on a budget.

In any normal circumstances, contractors are not paid for any time they have not actually worked. So in theory they have no entitlement to holiday pay.

On the other hand, this person is the primary care giver to your child for a large part of their week. Might be worth meeting them half way and explaining you're not flush with cash and there is already a cost involved for you to have the child looked after for this holiday period?

Really you think the she is a contractor excuse will work when revenue call. The control test no matter how you try and turn it will show a employer relationship. The parent decides on work hours, on activities and instructs the child minder on what should be done. If a person wants to say this is a contractor relationship fine but don't be surprised if Revenue hits that person with a serious bill.

"Should I pay my Childminder’s PRSI and deduct income tax?

Childminders who mind children in their own home are self-employed and liable for their own tax / PRSI. However, if the minder minds children in your home, the Childminder is an employee and you must pay all relevant tax and social insurance contributions."

http://www.childminding.ie/parents/parents-frequently-asked-questions/

I am assuming the OP has the childminder come to her home.

pwurple

Cash in hand... You're at the bottom of the sympathy slope from me.

This is the mess you get yourself into when you go off the books.

Get a contract between the two of you and get it above board. Both yourself and her are in a stupidly unprotected situation currently.

I won't even ask if she works in your home or hers...

Hello Lady!

When you say she is cash in hand, are you totally certain that she is not declaring the income? There is a system in place where people who mind children in their own home can earn €15000 without having to pay tax.

As for paying her holidays it really just depends on the agreement you have between you. A creche will have to be paid even if your kids don't go, for example if they are sick. But I am guessing that with your arrangement she will take your kids even if they are sick?

I know of people who have childminders who don't get paid when either the parents or the childminder are on holidays. But equally I know others who at the time of making the arrangement agreed to x many weeks holidays which would still be paid. In those cases the parents usually consult with the childminder to try and take holidays at the same time.

Can you not take your yearly holidays the same two weeks?

I suppose it all comes down to how happy you are with the service in other ways - if she is good with your kids and you trust her, perhaps that is worth the expense of 2 weeks a year?

pwurple

I won't even ask if she works in your home or hers, but you are both in a fairly silly situation by not registering with revenue.
What else is she claiming.... job seekers?
Ugh.


Get registered, and get a contract between the two of you. You know... discuss and agree in advance, document it. Like adults.

She may not even be liable for tax.

Hello Lady!

Funnily enough - I think there was a thread on work and jobs not long ago from the opposite perspective of a childminder who is paid cash in hand and not getting minimum wage or holidays. Hmmmm.....I wonder

Pro Hoc Vice

pwurple wrote: »

I won't even ask if she works in your home or hers, but you are both in a fairly silly situation by not registering with revenue.
What else is she claiming.... job seekers?
Ugh.


Get registered, and get a contract between the two of you. You know... discuss and agree in advance, document it. Like adults.

She may not even be liable for tax.

Very true.

Anniebell

pwurple wrote: »

Cash in hand... You're at the bottom of the sympathy slope from me.

This is the mess you get yourself into when you go off the books.

Get a contract between the two of you and get it above board. Both yourself and her are in a stupidly unprotected situation currently.

I won't even ask if she works in your home or hers...

There's nothing wrong with paying cash as long as the childminder is issuing receipts so that there is a paper trail of payments received.

OP you definitely should have a contract drawn up to include such issues as holiday pay and what happens if your minder is sick or your own child etc.

If your minder is working in your home however, that's a whole other situation. She is an employee of yours, therefore entitled to minimum wage, you should be paying PRSI and also her holiday days.

Hello Lady!

OP might find this website useful for sussing out what her options/rights/obligations are:

http://www.childminding.ie/

Moonbeam

Even tax exempt childminders those registered and earning under 15k are liable for PRSI.
I think the op is suggesting that her childminder is not tax compliant and the money is cash in hand.
In any professional job I would expect to be paid for my holidays once they were reasonable this includes childminding.
I would also expect people to be professional about their jobs so registered,insured and tax compliant.
Did she not draw up a contract for you to sign initially?


Just for clarification :
A childminder minds kids in her own home and is a self employed individual.
A Nanny minds kids in your home and is your employee.

silverharp

OP as you have a "bespoke" arrangement its down to whatever you agreed/negotiated. there is no grey market code by definition. The decent thing would be to pay her holidays and Im sure you are both benefiting from the tax wedge dividend. In the end its always better to have a happy childminder.

ash23

The norm among the parents I know who use childminders (i.e. people who mind children in the minders own home) are that if the parent is on holidays from work, the minder is paid. If the minder is taking time off (and the parent has to find alternative childcare) then the minder is not paid.

gabsdot40

ash23 wrote: »

The norm among the parents I know who use childminders (i.e. people who mind children in the minders own home) are that if the parent is on holidays from work, the minder is paid. If the minder is taking time off (and the parent has to find alternative childcare) then the minder is not paid.

This is absolutely correct. it is also vital to have an agreed contract in place to cover what happens if the childminder or children are sick, holidays, when the childminder is to be paid and in what way etc.
this will prevent all kinds of problems.

Hello Lady!

Moonbeam wrote: »

Even tax exempt childminders those registered and earning under 15k are liable for PRSI.

But in the case of a childminder in their own home, it is not the parents responsibility to pay the PRSI or check that it or tax is being paid.

But as you say, if the childminding takes place in the child's home then the parent is responsible for employer PRSI and making tax deductions on behalf of the employee.

lazygal

ash23 wrote: »

The norm among the parents I know who use childminders (i.e. people who mind children in the minders own home) are that if the parent is on holidays from work, the minder is paid. If the minder is taking time off (and the parent has to find alternative childcare) then the minder is not paid.

Yes this is how we work it. My minder really generously insisted on refunding me some money for a week when I chose to take child out early for a few days, so I'll get her a voucher/give a small bonus at Christmas as a thank you for this. She was very clear about not being paid during her holidays too. When she took holidays we used a combination of annual leave and offers from grandparents to dig us out. We always get loads of notice of her holidays so its never too much hassle to work around.

Auntie me

Do you get paid for your holidays? I bet you do. She is looking after your most precious possessions and by the sound of you she is doing a great job, and then you don't think she is entitled to holiday pay. She is as entitled to time off with pay as any of us are.