Land Improvements thread

bob charles

I see some super work being done at the moment in all land types. Might just be a good idea to pool all advice, questions and pics in the one thread so its an easy to use resource. What you think?

Im doing some drainage which is all new to me but the guys doing it who know the land type much better than me (they farm beside it, I farm 25 miles away) are adamant to just fill the shores with 4-6 stone to the top. Im undecided but its the type of ground that wont all mix together with the soil/subsoil so I will leave them at it. Right or wrong?

Milton09

One thing I've learned is that regardless of land type if it needs draining then the drains should be filled to the top with stone. I'm after going through a painful experience of having to dig the top layer off land drains that I put in in 2003. they weren't working so now they are filled to the top and hopefully it will make a difference. I'd post a pic but its an embarassing mess and in reality I would have been better off making completely new drains.

P.S. Good idea for a thread !

agriman27

I did a good bit of mole ploughing yesterday and today finally got it set up properly and ground conditions are perfect at the moment didn't put in any shores but couldn't let the opportunity pass:pac:

F.D

bob charles wrote: »

I see some super work being done at the moment in all land types. Might just be a good idea to pool all advice, questions and pics in the one thread so its an easy to use resource. What you think?

Im doing some drainage which is all new to me but the guys doing it who know the land type much better than me (they farm beside it, I farm 25 miles away) are adamant to just fill the shores with 4-6 stone to the top. Im undecided but its the type of ground that wont all mix together with the soil/subsoil so I will leave them at it. Right or wrong?

We Dug some shores in lacky ground last year and filled with smaller stone, right to the top, once you plough it mixes through anyway so it hard to know if its any advantage, one thing we noticed after there was pools of water within 6 inches of it where we dug personally i would go with what ever stone is cheaper and make more shores

Going forward...

South Western Forestry are the only solution for some of the fields I see lads pumping money into.

towzer2010

Going forward... wrote: »

South Western Forestry are the only solution for some of the fields I see lads pumping money into.

What do you do if you are based in the North West..............

td5man

towzer2010 wrote: »

What do you do if you are based in the North West..............

Greenbelt.

towzer2010

td5man wrote: »

Greenbelt.

Ah I see.... so not the only solution:D

F.D

Funny the best people can come up with is trees when it comes to land improvments, good thing there no chance of a famine again
Old fellas around me keep saying theres no such thing as bad land just bad drainage,

Going forward...

Living in cloud cuckoo land if you believe that. Or else you haven't seen bad land.

st1979

Christ sake if you saw my neighbours land you would think we were mad farming at all. I concur about bad drainage. A lot of land could be substantially improve by bit of drainage work and general better care. Around here it is a must to have deep open drains around fields and if you can a pipe into wet spots. But most of all a plough every decade or so. Does wonders for the drainage. Land here is pure marl clay. Used to make clay pipes and bricks near by. Only good thing is we got no stones

Timmaay

Ok I've a question here, not on drainage, but on land improvement as such, I'm going to hire in a 9ton digger for a week or so soon to repair afew drains and other bits and bobs, I have afew gaps that are still very badly poached, and afew tractor ruts going through fields, all of which are of course rock hard at the minute. While I have the digger should I use it to level them out now, or wait for some rain, and the ground to be softer then just use a roller/grass harrow etc? I did try to roll some some of rough areas back in the spring, it was hard to get a proper window though, either the ground would be too wet and slippy (doing more damage then I was repairing), or the ground had gone too hard.

Oh and the other thing, we have 1/2 an acre of rushes, that I think I can finally remove, once I sort out one of the drains leading from it, should I just be spraying them and let them rot away themselves, or scrap them all out now into a heap while I have the digger?

agriman27

I would get the digger to level the few ruts, you could just throw a bit of seed around wont be long growin if it gets a while without stock.

caseman

bob charles wrote: »

I see some super work being done at the moment in all land types. Might just be a good idea to pool all advice, questions and pics in the one thread so its an easy to use resource. What you think?

Im doing some drainage which is all new to me but the guys doing it who know the land type much better than me (they farm beside it, I farm 25 miles away) are adamant to just fill the shores with 4-6 stone to the top. Im undecided but its the type of ground that wont all mix together with the soil/subsoil so I will leave them at it. Right or wrong?

Any drains put in here now are filled to the top. Alot less chance of them getting cloged up with silt.

Corkfarmer

Did a bit of reclaiming over the summer, the field looks a lot worse than it was in fairness. Had to gone to wreck from neglect over the past few years. Its a four acre field that had been overtaken with rushes.


We dug three deep drains in the wettest parts of the field, We covered the pipe with about two feet of drainage stone and we filled to the top with pencil we dug out from the field beside it.



The finished product is some difference the seeds are in since last Tuesday week and they're up already.

Conor556

Corkfarmer wrote: »

Did a bit of reclaiming over the summer, the field looks a lot worse than it was in fairness. Had to gone to wreck from neglect over the past few years.


We dug three deep drains through where the field was wettest. We covered the pipe with about two feet of sandstone and filled to the top with pencil we dug out from nearby.




The finished product is some difference the seeds are in since last Tuesday week and they're up already.

Cant see the pics!

Juniorhurler

F.D wrote: »

Funny the best people can come up with is trees when it comes to land improvments, good thing there no chance of a famine again
Old fellas around me keep saying theres no such thing as bad land just bad drainage,

A man around here who started with just his two hands and died owning 600 acres always said, there is no such thing as bad land only bad men.

Good loser

agriman27 wrote: »

I would get the digger to level the few ruts, you could just throw a bit of seed around wont be long growin if it gets a while without stock.

I agree. Get him to use a bucket with long teeth - he can use it like a rake.

Teagasc on draining found 10 - 15 mm stone the best. I now use 20 mm to 35 mm over 80 mm coil pipe about 15'' over pipe and then lay Terram (12" to 13" wide) before immediate backfill. The digger transfers the stone from a dumper into the drain.

Farmer

Good loser wrote: »

...Teagasc on draining found 10 - 15 mm stone the best......

I'd have thought so too - I'd reckon it's harder for the silt to get in through it and clog it up, as opposed to the larger gaps left between bigger stone.
However, small stone seems to be hard to buy nowadays with everybody selling the notion that (cheaper) larger stone is better. It seemed to start in the tiger years when the quarries couldn't turn out small chips fast enough for all the roadworks, tarmac etc that was going down. I know that years ago, when I'd ring the quarry for drainage chips, they's ask "half inch or three quarter?"

I suppose it's down to 'bang for buck'- is a wider drain with cheaper larger stone better than the 10-15 mm chip quoted ?

Corkfarmer

Conor556 wrote:

Cant see the pics!

Fixed now

Farmer Pudsey

The trick with draining is to seal the top from soil but to allow water through. In the past along the top of drains they put straw to prevent the soil from going down into stone.

This formed a barrier that allowed water through but not soil. If you want to put in a percolation area for a septic tank they used to recommend ( not sure if they still do) that you use builders paper( not sure what this is) or straw on top of stone. If you use one of the landscaping barriers films you could keep the stone down 6-8''. This would allow you to disc or lightly plough.

I also was advised that the cheapest way to drain was to use 3-4'' limestone no drainage pipe cover with straw and soil and that it would last 20-30 years. It seems that the dust of the limestone will block a lot of the pores in the drainage pipe. You can use drainage pipe on the last 10 feet or waving pipe. Again the trick is to keep it down 6-8''.

Farmer Pudsey

Corkfarmer wrote: »

Did a bit of reclaiming over the summer, the field looks a lot worse than it was in fairness. Had to gone to wreck from neglect over the past few years. Its a four acre field that had been overtaken with rushes. We dug three deep drains in the wettest parts of the field, We covered the pipe with about two feet of drainage stone and we filled to the top with pencil we dug out from the field beside it.

The test will be in 2-3 years time.

bob charles

how about dig your drain, place terram into the drain so its folded in the bottom of the drain and comes up along the side. put in your chips and fold terram back over on top.

Figerty

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The trick with draining is to seal the top from soil but to allow water through. In the past along the top of drains they put straw to prevent the soil from going down into stone.

This formed a barrier that allowed water through but not soil. If you want to put in a percolation area for a septic tank they used to recommend ( not sure if they still do) that you use builders paper( not sure what this is) or straw on top of stone. If you use one of the landscaping barriers films you could keep the stone down 6-8''. This would allow you to disc or lightly plough.

I also was advised that the cheapest way to drain was to use 3-4'' limestone no drainage pipe cover with straw and soil and that it would last 20-30 years. It seems that the dust of the limestone will block a lot of the pores in the drainage pipe. You can use drainage pipe on the last 10 feet or waving pipe. Again the trick is to keep it down 6-8''.

Run a mile from Limestone if you are in ground with Iron water. Limestone will react leaving you with a jelly blocking the pipes and wasting your money. Sandstone gravel doesn't react.

I fill with stones to the top; 20mm pea gravel even though more expensive. I won't ever be ploughing this ground so the drains stay intact. I used 30mm stone 10 years ago and that is blocked now. the drain with 20mm are working fine.

I also had a long chat with a playing field construction expert. He said that the 10-15 mm pea gravel is best as the pores between the pea gravel is smaller than the slits in the pipe which means it shouldn't get clogged. Also the organic material that moves through the ground water wont enter the pipe as it is too large to enter the pores between the stones.

I did maybe a thousand metres of draining in the last few year through all the wet spots,, now what was the dry spots are the wet spots.

Figerty

bob charles wrote: »

how about dig your drain, place terram into the drain so its folded in the bottom of the drain and comes up along the side. put in your chips and fold terram back over on top.

That works, concern is the filter may block over time. Depends on the soil type.

Did a bit of this also as an experiment and I will be looking at it an few years to see how its working. It could be a winner also.

bob charles

Figerty wrote: »

That works, concern is the filter may block over time. Depends on the soil type.

Did a bit of this also as an experiment and I will be looking at it an few years to see how its working. It could be a winner also.

the terram blocking would be my concern. So as I now im putting large stone into about 2ft wide shores and putting a sprinkle of small stone on top and leaving completely open, what grass decides to grow over it can but I wont put soil over it per se.

Farmer Pudsey

Figerty wrote: »

Run a mile from Limestone if you are in ground with Iron water. Limestone will react leaving you with a jelly blocking the pipes and wasting your money. Sandstone gravel doesn't react.

I fill with stones to the top; 20mm pea gravel even though more expensive. I won't ever be ploughing this ground so the drains stay intact. I used 30mm stone 10 years ago and that is blocked now. the drain with 20mm are working fine.

I also had a long chat with a playing field construction expert. He said that the 10-15 mm pea gravel is best as the pores between the pea gravel is smaller than the slits in the pipe which means it shouldn't get clogged. Also the organic material that moves through the ground water wont enter the pipe as it is too large to enter the pores between the stones.

I did maybe a thousand metres of draining in the last few year through all the wet spots,, now what was the dry spots are the wet spots.

If you look at my post I said that it was not reccomended to use any drainage pipe except at the end to let water exit to the shore. It is not a bell and whistle rather a low cost solution that will maybe last 20-30 years. The trick it seems is to seal the top so that loose earth or gravel cannot filter down through the stone. Cost is a huge issue with drainage if you can use a medium term solution that will be low cost it may allow someone to drain a large area and increase productivity very fast. There are area's of rushy sloped land that this might be suitable for that could double or treble farm production at a low cost cutting cost back by 50% or more.

You see if draining lowlying land where you have a good percentage of productive land drainage costs is not a real issue however on a lot of west of Ireland most of the farm may require drainage. So low cost solutions may offer a medium term solution.

A bells and whistle type solution may not be viable even though it has twice or three times the lifespan while a solution like was suggested to me may actually make long term sence on some of these farms. Now I must state I have not seen it done but was told about it by another farmer.

If you look at it even spraying rushes at 10-15 euro/acre/year may make economic sence however how many do it. Right fertility will also help with P&K being very important. Using Granlime as opposed to ground lime due to access problems on heavy land may also increase productivity. It is doing something that there is an short to medium economic return that generates profit and wealth.

bob charles

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If you look at my post I said that it was not reccomended to use any drainage pipe except at the end to let water exit to the shore.

Whats the thinking of using the pipe at the exit to the shore. Im putting in one 200m drain so how far back along it should I got with a pipe. Great natural fall in the drain to begin with

4odh4n

does anybody use the 110mm sewer pipe for drainage works?? we have started using it for replacing drainage over the last two years or so. bit of work involved in that it has to be cut/slotted, we usually run down it with a consaw or ginder with grinding disk and cut slots every 4-5inches or so as end up with something like this...

---

\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / / / /

---

the cuts would be about 2/3 of the pipe with the remaining 1/3 left as a smooth bottom.

out main problem is the 80mm perforated pipe keeps silting, they will got fine for 6-8years from new but after that you would be jetting every other year nearly to keep them running, we use up to 20mm stone and this seems to work well, infact when we open older drains we find the water will be running through the stone as it cant get into the pipe as all the small holes have silted up, again !

trying this now hoping the larger slots in the sewer pipe will not be as inclined to silt and may only require jetting to clear out any material that gathers on the bottom of the pipe, although pipes put in over two years ago now are as clean as the day they went in.

hugo29

4odh4n wrote: »

does anybody use the 110mm sewer pipe for drainage works?? we have started using it for replacing drainage over the last two years or so. bit of work involved in that it has to be cut/slotted, we usually run down it with a consaw or ginder with grinding disk and cut slots every 4-5inches or so as end up with something like this...

---

\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / / / /

---

the cuts would be about 2/3 of the pipe with the remaining 1/3 left as a smooth bottom.

out main problem is the 80mm perforated pipe keeps silting, they will got fine for 6-8years from new but after that you would be jetting every other year nearly to keep them running, we use up to 20mm stone and this seems to work well, infact when we open older drains we find the water will be running through the stone as it cant get into the pipe as all the small holes have silted up, again !

trying this now hoping the larger slots in the sewer pipe will not be as inclined to silt and may only require jetting to clear out any material that gathers on the bottom of the pipe, although pipes put in over two years ago now are as clean as the day they went in.

you can buy the pipe slotted, its whats used in percolation trenches but its expensive, most just do as you said and slot it themselves

Farmer Pudsey

bob charles wrote: »

Whats the thinking of using the pipe at the exit to the shore. Im putting in one 200m drain so how far back along it should I got with a pipe. Great natural fall in the drain to begin with

It allows you to seal end od stone so that it will not fall into shore especially an issue with sloped groundso 8-10 feet of pipe allows the water to flow out into shore. It also seem that it may be a good idea to turn the end in the stone in a ''U'' so that water will seep infrom end of ''U'' rather than flow down into it less likly that debri will block end of pipe in stone.

A lot of it seems to be common sence

st1979

How many meters/hour would you guys reckon a track machine would dig a narrow V trench of about 3'deep. Probably 13 ton track machine. I know a lot o variables but a rough estimate

reilig

st1979 wrote: »

How many meters/hour would you guys reckon a track machine would dig a narrow V trench of about 3'deep. Probably 13 ton track machine. I know a lot o variables but a rough estimate

My contractor can open, pipe and stone 1000m per day with a 13 ton machine and a stoning cart on a marooka track dumper. 10 hour day. Some time is needed afterwards to clean away spoil and do any leveling - so the amount of hours for this would be site specific but half a day maximum.

td5man

st1979 wrote: »

How many meters/hour would you guys reckon a track machine would dig a narrow V trench of about 3'deep. Probably 13 ton track machine. I know a lot o variables but a rough estimate

If theres no stones 150m+

just do it

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I also was advised that the cheapest way to drain was to use 3-4'' limestone no drainage pipe cover with straw and soil and that it would last 20-30 years. It seems that the dust of the limestone will block a lot of the pores in the drainage pipe. You can use drainage pipe on the last 10 feet or waving pipe. Again the trick is to keep it down 6-8''.

I was advised this is ok for short shores but you need the pipe for long shores. Shallow drains are to remove rain water before it can soak into the ground. Therefore it needs to get away quickly.

Marooned75

I have made a few channels in places to drain areas contractor says stone is enough no need for piping will do the job

just do it

Figerty wrote: »

Run a mile from Limestone if you are in ground with Iron water. Limestone will react leaving you with a jelly blocking the pipes and wasting your money. Sandstone gravel doesn't react.

Oh oh, I could be up s**t creek without a paddle. I put in solid sided JFC pipe which doesn't have the corrugated interior of the rolls of drainage pipe. Hopefully the smooth sides will help flow throw the pipe and prevent deposits building up. Filled the shores to the top with 2" washed limestone with 4" of stone under the pipe.

I fill with stones to the top; 20mm pea gravel even though more expensive. I won't ever be ploughing this ground so the drains stay intact. I used 30mm stone 10 years ago and that is blocked now. the drain with 20mm are working fine.

Where did you get the pea gravel and how much was it? My 2" washed limestone was €20/t.

I

just do it

4odh4n wrote: »

after that you would be jetting every other year nearly to keep them running.

How much did the jetting cost you? Depending on cost, I may consider it on a biannual basis right from year two.


Anyone know a clare contractor that does this?

just do it

Got a bale of 100 6m JFC perforated corripipe for €1,100. By ch***t it better last the test of time.

just do it

Marooned75 wrote: »

I have made a few channels in places to drain areas contractor says stone is enough no need for piping will do the job

How long are they? I was advised after 30m you need pipe, particularly if there is a poor slope

td5man

just do it wrote: »

Got a bale of 100 6m JFC perforated corripipe for €1,100. By ch***t it better last the test of time.

100mm or 150 ?

Muckit

Nothing much to add here (yet) only to agree with posters that have said fill shores to the top.then rub of a handrake. a sprinkle of topsoil over is all that required to grow grass. 1" MAX!! Grass roots form a mat then nothing blocks shore

Muckit

V good dairy farmer has bog gardens leased off another retired farmer. Watching with interest to see how he gets on with drainage. If anyone will make it grow grass, it's him

just do it

td5man wrote: »

100mm or 150 ?

100

Marooned75

just do it wrote: »

How long are they? I was advised after 30m you need pipe, particularly if there is a poor slope

In or around 30 to 40 m have enough of fall on longer trench

Figerty

just do it wrote: »

Oh oh, I could be up s**t creek without a paddle. I put in solid sided JFC pipe which doesn't have the corrugated interior of the rolls of drainage pipe. Hopefully the smooth sides will help flow throw the pipe and prevent deposits building up. Filled the shores to the top with 2" washed limestone with 4" of stone under the pipe.

Where did you get the pea gravel and how much was it? My 2" washed limestone was €20/t.

I

Smooth pipe will help. You might not have a problem with the iron water. One book I read on line said it only really happens where the water exits to the main drain and hits the air. I know loads of lads that use limestone and they seem happy enough. Time will tell.

I got the pea gravel from Broadford in Clare or Near Newport in Tipp. I'm west of Ennis. Depends up the quarry being open. I am paying €350 before vat. for a 17-18 tonne load but it's a long haul if I could get the bill from the lorry driver!

Figerty

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If you look at my post I said that it was not reccomended to use any drainage pipe except at the end to let water exit to the shore. It is not a bell and whistle rather a low cost solution that will maybe last 20-30 years. The trick it seems is to seal the top so that loose earth or gravel cannot filter down through the stone. Cost is a huge issue with drainage if you can use a medium term solution that will be low cost it may allow someone to drain a large area and increase productivity very fast. There are area's of rushy sloped land that this might be suitable for that could double or treble farm production at a low cost cutting cost back by 50% or more.

You see if draining lowlying land where you have a good percentage of productive land drainage costs is not a real issue however on a lot of west of Ireland most of the farm may require drainage. So low cost solutions may offer a medium term solution.

A bells and whistle type solution may not be viable even though it has twice or three times the lifespan while a solution like was suggested to me may actually make long term sence on some of these farms. Now I must state I have not seen it done but was told about it by another farmer.

If you look at it even spraying rushes at 10-15 euro/acre/year may make economic sence however how many do it. Right fertility will also help with P&K being very important. Using Granlime as opposed to ground lime due to access problems on heavy land may also increase productivity. It is doing something that there is an short to medium economic return that generates profit and wealth.

I'd agree with you on nearly everything you say. I use drainage pipe as I tend to do long runs of draining; I heard it said that if the drain is over 30m then use a pipe. That makes sense. Over this length, the pipe is a must to handle the volume of water. On sloping land where they are diagonal this is need to prevent the water flooding the drain over running the land.

It was put to me that drains don't dry land, the sun is the most important factor; drains get the surface water off the land as quickly as possible.

The key thing for me is that I don't want to be back doing the bloody thing again. Much of my draining on lowland is being done to replace the damaged stone drains put down generations ago.

The problem with limestone is also the sharp edges. These edges hold organic matter and nutrients; these encourage root growth and infiltration of pipes. The small pore size, with smooth sides should allow the pipes to stay open. Upland with a high Clay content would be fine with limestone.

The point that was also made to me was that the pea gravel, while more expensive, will out live the other stone, especially on ground with a high level of organic matter like peaty ground or heavy black earth.

Farmer Pudsey

Figerty wrote: »

I'd agree with you on nearly everything you say. I use drainage pipe as I tend to do long runs of draining; I heard it said that if the drain is over 30m then use a pipe. That makes sense. Over this length, the pipe is a must to handle the volume of water. On sloping land where they are diagonal this is need to prevent the water flooding the drain over running the land.

It was put to me that drains don't dry land, the sun is the most important factor; drains get the surface water off the land as quickly as possible.

The key thing for me is that I don't want to be back doing the bloody thing again. Much of my draining on lowland is being done to replace the damaged stone drains put down generations ago.

The problem with limestone is also the sharp edges. These edges hold organic matter and nutrients; these encourage root growth and infiltration of pipes. The small pore size, with smooth sides should allow the pipes to stay open. Upland with a high Clay content would be fine with limestone.

The point that was also made to me was that the pea gravel, while more expensive, will out live the other stone, especially on ground with a high level of organic matter like peaty ground or heavy black earth.

Again I agree with you longer term the pea gravel may be cheaper. However at 300 euro/load it is expensive along with pipe it may be prohibitive. Local limestone may come in at less than half that. So drainage costs may be 50% of the price of pea gravel. Again I have not seen it done but was advised that it was a cheap solution that works. You do not need washed limestone as water will wash it over time. The is the reason that you do not use drainage pipe slits will block. This is a cheap medium term solution. If it allows some to drain forty acres as opposed to 20 and generate a return that will allow you to drain 10 or more in a few years time then it is a viable solution. We should not look for solutions that are cost prohibitive even though they will last twice or three times longer.

Figerty

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Again I agree with you longer term the pea gravel may be cheaper. However at 300 euro/load it is expensive along with pipe it may be prohibitive. Local limestone may come in at less than half that. So drainage costs may be 50% of the price of pea gravel. Again I have not seen it done but was advised that it was a cheap solution that works. You do not need washed limestone as water will wash it over time. The is the reason that you do not use drainage pipe slits will block. This is a cheap medium term solution. If it allows some to drain forty acres as opposed to 20 and generate a return that will allow you to drain 10 or more in a few years time then it is a viable solution. We should not look for solutions that are cost prohibitive even though they will last twice or three times longer.

No great disagreement there with you. Thing is for me, I am a part time farmer getting hit at the high rate of tax. I am looking at off setting the cost of this drainage against this off farm income. That reduces the difference between the cost of the materials for me. I do all the rest of the work myself; digging, transporting, laying drains etc. I like making profit on activities but I also don't like paying tax!

Figerty

Just to add a new dimension to this. Have a look at the following link, We are in the middle of constructing a new GAA pitch. you can follow the development as it goes.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.548769261827427.1073741844.191980570839633&type=3

Good loser

bob charles wrote: »

how about dig your drain, place terram into the drain so its folded in the bottom of the drain and comes up along the side. put in your chips and fold terram back over on top.

Believe this is how OPW do all their drains. The Terram would be dear but much less chips could be used. See my earlier post.