Land Improvements thread

Good loser

st1979 wrote: »

How many meters/hour would you guys reckon a track machine would dig a narrow V trench of about 3'deep. Probably 13 ton track machine. I know a lot o variables but a rough estimate

See my post 18 above. With very little stress was doing 300 - 350 linear metres per day with that system. Drainage stone was €12 + VAT per tonne this year.

just do it

Figerty wrote: »

I got the pea gravel from Broadford in Clare or Near Newport in Tipp. I'm west of Ennis. Depends up the quarry being open. I am paying €350 before vat. for a 17-18 tonne load but it's a long haul if I could get the bill from the lorry driver!

McGrath's? I'd a look at my receipts from Ryan's. I paid €10/t before vat for 50mm including haulage. That's half the price of pea gravel and you'd use more as well. Not cheap! Some of my shores were quite deep in order to get a fall so I just couldn't afford pea gravel.

just do it

Muckit wrote: »

V good dairy farmer has bog gardens leased off another retired farmer. Watching with interest to see how he gets on with drainage. If anyone will make it grow grass, it's him

And report back. Bog is the tricky one to drain :rolleyes:

Conflats

Does everyone open and pipe/chip the drains on the same day or have I being reading wrong as I always understood that a drain should be left open for a month or 2 until the land has dried a bit?

just do it

Figerty wrote: »

The point that was also made to me was that the pea gravel, while more expensive, will out live the other stone, especially on ground with a high level of organic matter like peaty ground or heavy black earth.

I agree with you on everything thus far except for what works in peat land. In such land the issue is the stone migrating into the soil away from the drain over time. I've bog land here and it never ceases to amaze me to see the large chunks of bogdale that work there way to the surface every few years. Hence the connaught agri pipe solution for such land.

reilig

Conflats wrote: »

Does everyone open and pipe/chip the drains on the same day or have I being reading wrong as I always understood that a drain should be left open for a month or 2 until the land has dried a bit?

We would normally close the drain on the same day. This is because the type of land that we would be draining would only be drained in dry weather. Best to close it up when it is dry.

However, I do have a couple of hundred meters of drains open from last week that I will be filling with the power box when or if it gets dry enough to get near them. They were opened last thursday (the wettest day of the summer so far) and the ground just hasn't dried up yet.

reilig

just do it wrote: »

I agree with you on everything thus far except for what works in peat land. In such land the issue is the stone migrating into the soil away from the drain over time. I've bog land here and it never ceases to amaze me to see the large chunks of bogdale that work there way to the surface every few years. Hence the connaught agri pipe solution for such land.

+1

If people are dreaming about putting stone shores into bog then they should just go to the bank, withdraw cash and light the fire with €50 notes. Stone just moves in bog. Works fine for 3 or 4 years and then suddenly stops because it has moved during a prolonged wet or dry year!

Figerty

reilig wrote: »

+1

If people are dreaming about putting stone shores into bog then they should just go to the bank, withdraw cash and light the fire with €50 notes. Stone just moves in bog. Works fine for 3 or 4 years and then suddenly stops because it has moved during a prolonged wet or dry year!

I have never drained Bog; drained black earthy ground, but having suffered as a young lad in the bog and feeling the whole bank move when a tractor passed I don't doubt your point! Stone will move as will the organic matter that is peat. The filter is probably the best option.

bob charles

I dont know if we are making progress or not doing my current field. Dozer back in this afternoon to shift more subsoil into a low spot to "make a proper job of it:rolleyes:"

nashmach

bob charles wrote: »

I dont know if we are making progress or not doing my current field. Dozer back in this afternoon to shift more subsoil into a low spot to "make a proper job of it:rolleyes:"

Heaps of clay here there and everywhere!

No one has mentioned on going maintenance of drains, you need to be rodding any outlets from pipes at least once a year.

bob charles

nashmach wrote: »

Heaps of clay here there and everywhere!

No one has mentioned on going maintenance of drains, you need to be rodding any outlets from pipes at least once a year.

plan for the weekend is to shift all the heaps of earth to the left of the picture and doze the a couple of feet of subsoil where the track machine is to where the heaps of earth are in the pic. Only have the dozer for 3 days so they will be three long ones.

First pic is another field finished earlier in the week with track machines that I started into this morning with the leveler, second pic is it about 80% done before the rain stopped play, taught I would get it seeded today but will leave it till monday now. 50ft forward in the second picture there was a 20ft drop to a stream that disappeared/piped underground 2 years ago

Figerty

bob charles wrote: »

plan for the weekend is to shift all the heaps of earth to the left of the picture and doze the a couple of feet of subsoil where the track machine is to where the heaps of earth are in the pic. Only have the dozer for 3 days so they will be three long ones.

First pic is another field finished earlier in the week with track machines that I started into this morning with the leveler, second pic is it about 80% done before the rain stopped play, taught I would get it seeded today but will leave it till monday now. 50ft forward in the second picture there was a 20ft drop to a stream that disappeared/piped underground 2 years ago

Given there is a long fall on that field, did you consider any diagonal drains to catch the water are it moves down along the field? If you have clay underneath then it won't soak much water. Would it be worth it next year to? It make a great difference to the ground below the drains especially after a flood.

One other thing I noticed last year was the cattle tended to travel the stone drains and break off into the grass. It saved an awful lot of damage to the ground.

Figerty

http://www.dublincity.ie/WaterWasteEnvironment/WasteWater/Drainage/GreaterDublinStrategicDrainageStudy/Documents/Vol%203%20-%20%20Filter%20Drains.pdf


Interesting article on road drainage from Dublin City Council. The terram type drains.

just do it

Figerty wrote: »

Just to add a new dimension to this. Have a look at the following link, We are in the middle of constructing a new GAA pitch. you can follow the development as it goes.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.548769261827427.1073741844.191980570839633&type=3

Not on facebook, I take it it's Kilmaley? I may have to set up a new email address to get going on facebook...

just do it

Conflats wrote: »

Does everyone open and pipe/chip the drains on the same day or have I being reading wrong as I always understood that a drain should be left open for a month or 2 until the land has dried a bit?

Depends on the land. If it's shallow top soil on top of clay then fine good to leave them open a while. If the sides are brittle and likely to crumble in then not such a good idea.

I've done both depending on the individual circumstances. I'd one open for nearly 2 months earlier this year and 20 minutes with a shovel had the few loose bits that had fallen in cleared out of it.

just do it

bob charles wrote: »

I dont know if we are making progress or not doing my current field. Dozer back in this afternoon to shift more subsoil into a low spot to "make a proper job of it:rolleyes:"

bob charles wrote: »

plan for the weekend is to shift all the heaps of earth to the left of the picture and doze the a couple of feet of subsoil where the track machine is to where the heaps of earth are in the pic. Only have the dozer for 3 days so they will be three long ones.

Looking at the photo it is hard to tell but am I right in thinking it was taken from a high point and there is a decent fall away from you down towards the end with the track machine? Also there is top soil in the foreground but as you move down the field this changes more towards a peaty topsoil?

How come all the work moving subsoil with the dozer? If you drained the field to its lowest point can you get the water away from there? I'd imagine the dozer must add substantially to the cost...

just do it

bob charles wrote: »

First pic is another field finished earlier in the week with track machines that I started into this morning with the leveler, second pic is it about 80% done before the rain stopped play, taught I would get it seeded today but will leave it till monday now. 50ft forward in the second picture there was a 20ft drop to a stream that disappeared/piped underground 2 years ago

Mighty work Bob. Have you drainage put in? In the second pic it looks like a trench along the wall on the right with shore drains catching water off the slope into it would do a great job.

Figerty

just do it wrote: »

Not on facebook, I take it it's Kilmaley? I may have to set up a new email address to get going on facebook...

Ya, Pitch being constructed.. If we could drain all land this way we would be broke but have great grass!

bob charles

Figerty wrote: »

Given there is a long fall on that field, did you consider any diagonal drains to catch the water are it moves down along the field? If you have clay underneath then it won't soak much water. Would it be worth it next year to? It make a great difference to the ground below the drains especially after a flood.

hadnt taught of that, but as I said drainage wouldn't be my strong point as majority of our land has the opposite problem with rock. this ground is 25miles away from me. there is a good fall in the field but also fairly level. We are hoping for a natural drainage once we have it back together. before I started there were to very steep inclines V'ing into the middle. we cut the sides and filled the middle while also leaving a slight slope into the middle and off to the sides. Main drain goes down through the middle. The subsoil is a sandy type stuff and drainage of it would be pretty good but the part im going filling was just 5ft of peat soil so give when we are finished the rest of the field will be dry apart from this spot so that why we are going doing what we are. Idea is to not graze this land and use for silage alone.

Attached is a photo of land before being attacked with roundup. years of neglect for different reasons as I dont own the land but its extended family land:rolleyes:

second pic is of where roundup was applied last year in May 12 during the dry weather on one of the hills in an adjoining field. I ran out of spray as can be seen from the right of the picture. its amazing the difference on how much the ground has dried up just killing the rushes. using allot of mineral oil with Glyophosate seems to burn the life out of them. Hope to get onto this section next year

just do it wrote: »

How come all the work moving subsoil with the dozer? If you drained the field to its lowest point can you get the water away from there? I'd imagine the dozer must add substantially to the cost...

We are trying to do a lifetime job and the subsoil is of such that it will really aid drainage. some parts had 5ft of peat so backfilled these areas and reduce soil to 6" to a foot. The varying levels of the field lead to this method being the best in our view. Contractor has final call as he is used of this land. Cost will be around 1.5 to 2k an acre when finished, I have high expectations of the ground once the job is complete. anywhere there is a fall into there are stone drains draining to the sides and connected to middle drain that splits the field

just do it

bob charles wrote: »

years of neglect for different reasons as I dont own the land

Well you certainly can't be accused of allowing the neglect to continue bob! I look forward to next year's pictures of lush green fields .

moy83

When you bulldoze an few feet into a hollow to raise it up would you expect much settling over the next year or two ?
If you dont own the land bob , will you have it rent free for a few years or did you get a long lease on it ?

buffalobilly

What would be wrong with the 4in limestone someone told me it was the best for iron ore as it would filter it the best (I always use 1in clean stone myself) but find it very expensive and was going to try the limestone where I have iron ore all opinions welcome

Figerty

Did a bit of searching on this. Iron Ochre is very hard to beat once its there in the ground, but it depends on the type of soil. Here is a good background article from Canada

http://fyi.uwex.edu/drainage/files/2012/06/Iron-Ochre-in-Agricultural-Drains2.pdf

another article said the source of the iron could be anywhere within 5km!

With regards to using Limestone as a filler where there is Iron Ochre.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/AE/AE02600.pdf
Liming the Drain Trench
The purpose here is to precipitate iron and prevent ochre formation in drains. It was found to be unsatisfactory in Germany. Iron in combination with lime in the trench decreased permeability, which defeated the purpose of a permeable backfill in a drain trench.
In 1961, slag gravel from the production of elemental phosphorus was used as an envelope for drains in Florida. The system eventually failed because the slag disintegrated and formed a seal around the drain. Lime rock will do the same thing. A similar reaction occurred in Germany with the use of copper slag, but because of the bactericidal action of copper, the blockage from slag took about 8 years.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/AE/AE02600.pdf

Teagasc also have a drainage manual.
http://www.teagasc.ie/publications/2013/2821/Land%20Drainage%20Manual.pdf

just do it

Thanks figerty, some good reference material there. Teagasc manual looks good and finally they have committed something to paper about draining peat soils (p19).

Figerty

just do it wrote: »

Thanks figerty, some good reference material there. Teagasc manual looks good and finally they have committed something to paper about draining peat soils (p19).

Teagasc have acknowledged that there are many types of Peat soils and these need different techniques.

One thing I did read today was that to not use geotextile membranes where there is Iron water (ochre) as this will clog first and stay clogged. The bacteria love this stuff.

Markcheese

F.D wrote: »

Funny the best people can come up with is trees when it comes to land improvments, good thing there no chance of a famine again
Old fellas around me keep saying theres no such thing as bad land just bad drainage,

Seen a lot of money spent on drainage to make really unproductive land into unproductive land... How much would you spend an acre to get a bit of summer grazing...

dar31

when you are running a drain pipe out through a ditch(hedge) put a full length of wavin at the end, this stops the roots from growing down through the slits in the yellow pipe and blocking it up.
put a scoop of soil at the end where the pipe runs into the drain as it forces the water through the last stretch of pipe and keeps it washed out

gozunda

Markcheese wrote: »

Seen a lot of money spent on drainage to make really unproductive land into unproductive land... How much would you spend an acre to get a bit of summer grazing...

Agreed - I would add that before everyone jumps on the current bandwagon to expand silage production even in the most marginal and unsuitable land - there are a lot of things to think about

Before starting work will the returns in terms of possilble improvement be justified to the spending on machinery / materials and time

1) Where if anywhere are the drains going to outfall - will this cause other potential problems downstream?

2) if the land is low lying / at low point in landscape with no proper gradient outflows - where is the water supposed to go?

3) if there is an existing impermeable sub soil layer across a wide area then single point drains are not going to make a whole load of difference

4) check if the soil itself of a impermeable type and also consideration that the mixing subsoil and topsoil may result in more damage than remediation

5) Stone lined drains have a limited lifespan before final siltation and failure and return of existing water levels

In many cases in and clinatic conditions I believe it can be often a case of trying to make a pigs ear into a silk purse - unlikely and costs a fortune in time, effort and resources.

dar31

wet areas opened up to let dry over the winter, will try get a few pic of the end of the run this evening

bob charles

the progress

1st - looking down from the higher point, standing in the hole that there was 5ft of peat in before now
2nd - looking up for the bottom of the field with the fall coming towards the camera.

Subsoil is such that if the water off the field goes down evenly it should be free draining. Sandy stuff locals call bunarú if thats how you spell it. Dozer has done serious work in 20hrs. currently grading off for final finish before soil goes back on.

bob charles

dar31 wrote: »

wet areas opened up to let dry over the winter, will try get a few pic of the end of the run this evening

doesnt look too wet there dar. Once left to dry out for a few months and you wont know it. make sure to tackle any rushes now so they have disappeared for work next year. I have a good few damp corners sorted this year that had to be left for the last number of years. Surprised the amount of extra acres when all drilled up. one field there was shag all in since I took it on in a lease was 4 ac and I taught there was feck all in it. Dry as a bone now. previous tenant wintered cattle there :mad:

Marooned75

bob charles wrote: »

the progress

1st - looking down from the higher point, standing in the hole that there was 5ft of peat in before now
2nd - looking up for the bottom of the field with the fall coming towards the camera.

Subsoil is such that if the water off the field goes down evenly it should be free draining. Sandy stuff locals call bunarú if thats how you spell it. Dozer has done serious work in 20hrs. currently grading off for final finish before soil goes back on.

Some twine spent on that bob I'd say

Figerty

bob charles wrote: »

the progress

1st - looking down from the higher point, standing in the hole that there was 5ft of peat in before now
2nd - looking up for the bottom of the field with the fall coming towards the camera.

Subsoil is such that if the water off the field goes down evenly it should be free draining. Sandy stuff locals call bunarú if thats how you spell it. Dozer has done serious work in 20hrs. currently grading off for final finish before soil goes back on.

That earth looks good; very few rocks and nice colour in it.
Hopefully the weather will hold good for you.

razor8

before during and after

Muckit

lovely pics there razor, says it all really. I'd say those sheep will make a job of it.

Will they get rid of any weeds (buttercups etc) or will you come in with a spray?

razor8

sheep are very contented, lying most of the time and getting up and stretching!

seed went in 5 weeks tomorrow, have a few docks and redshank through it, but generally very happy with it,

rang crowd i got seed from and they said to hold off the spray until October as i will check growth, it was a high clover mix, so thats what i will do. he also said that he never seen reseeding do so well in 20 years as much as its done in the last month

ploughing another 5 acres tomorrow

orchardfarmer

lads how long would you leave it before putting the sheep in

i have new grass up 4 weeks now, theres a good cover on it but you can still pull the odd plant out, shoud i wait another couple of weeks?

orchardfarmer

bob charles wrote: »

hadnt taught of that, but as I said drainage wouldn't be my strong point as majority of our land has the opposite problem with rock. this ground is 25miles away from me. there is a good fall in the field but also fairly level. We are hoping for a natural drainage once we have it back together. before I started there were to very steep inclines V'ing into the middle. we cut the sides and filled the middle while also leaving a slight slope into the middle and off to the sides. Main drain goes down through the middle. The subsoil is a sandy type stuff and drainage of it would be pretty good but the part im going filling was just 5ft of peat soil so give when we are finished the rest of the field will be dry apart from this spot so that why we are going doing what we are. Idea is to not graze this land and use for silage alone.

Attached is a photo of land before being attacked with roundup. years of neglect for different reasons as I dont own the land but its extended family land:rolleyes:

second pic is of where roundup was applied last year in May 12 during the dry weather on one of the hills in an adjoining field. I ran out of spray as can be seen from the right of the picture. its amazing the difference on how much the ground has dried up just killing the rushes. using allot of mineral oil with Glyophosate seems to burn the life out of them. Hope to get onto this section next year




We are trying to do a lifetime job and the subsoil is of such that it will really aid drainage. some parts had 5ft of peat so backfilled these areas and reduce soil to 6" to a foot. The varying levels of the field lead to this method being the best in our view. Contractor has final call as he is used of this land. Cost will be around 1.5 to 2k an acre when finished, I have high expectations of the ground once the job is complete. anywhere there is a fall into there are stone drains draining to the sides and connected to middle drain that splits the field

thats a savage bit of work there
i have a similar bit of work to do on 4 acres at home, have me own digger so going to try with a digger and dumper rather than bring in the dozer, just trying to build up the courage to start!!
i promised meself i would take a years break when i finished the last field 4 weeks ago!! itchy feet already...

agriman27

A few months ago I was looking online for info on land drainage. I found a book on the amazon website it's called 'Farm Drainage The Principles Processes And Effects'. The book is free to download as an e-book. It was published in 1860 a long time ago I know, but I found it very interesting and informative. There's not that much info on the net about land drainage. I think it's worth a look if any of ye are interested its on amazon for FREE :pac:

razor8

orchardfarmer wrote: »

lads how long would you leave it before putting the sheep in

i have new grass up 4 weeks now, theres a good cover on it but you can still pull the odd plant out, shoud i wait another couple of weeks?

i put lambs in just short of 5 weeks and there doing no harm, the grass has really took off last 10 days so it needs ating

whelan1

used the "thingy" that drainage man has for rolling out pipes today, it goes on the back of the jeep, less than 5 minutes to roll out 150m of 1inch hyrodare and no cursing or getting wrapped up in circles:D

rancher

razor8 wrote: »

i put lambs in just short of 5 weeks and there doing no harm, the grass has really took off last 10 days so it needs ating

Will be interesting to see the DLWG on that

hoseman

whelan1 wrote: »

used the "thingy" that drainage man has for rolling out pipes today, it goes on the back of the jeep, less than 5 minutes to roll out 150m of 1inch hyrodare and no cursing or getting wrapped up in circles:D

The secret to rolling out pipe is to take it from the inside,and turn it as you walk back.

milkprofit

whelan1 wrote: »

used the "thingy" that drainage man has for rolling out pipes today, it goes on the back of the jeep, less than 5 minutes to roll out 150m of 1inch hyrodare and no cursing or getting wrapped up in circles:D

If u have no thingey
Lay roll on ground take end of pipe from inside of roll splice and tie light rope on it and on to jeep or tractor - quod drive slowly pipe comes out no problem

razor8

rancher wrote: »

Will be interesting to see the DLWG on that

yes rancher, weighed them going in and dosed again, i can see the colour changing in them already!

bbam

Has anyone heard talk of a drainage grant coming down the line?
Some farmers I've talked to recently are talking about one being put in place, but I haven't seen any mention in the comic or anywhere..

Is this just wishful thinking??

reilig

bbam wrote: »

Has anyone heard talk of a drainage grant coming down the line?
Some farmers I've talked to recently are talking about one being put in place, but I haven't seen any mention in the comic or anywhere..

Is this just wishful thinking??

People were talking about it at our last BTAP meeting and the advisor rubbished it saying that there was not enough money in the kitty to do it! He also said that if there was money in the kitty, it would be for to improve quality and educate farmers as opposed to capital spending!

moy83

bbam wrote: »

Has anyone heard talk of a drainage grant coming down the line?
Some farmers I've talked to recently are talking about one being put in place, but I haven't seen any mention in the comic or anywhere..

Is this just wishful thinking??

Cant wait for it ! If its true . Ill deffo qualify for it with ease

reilig

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85814952&postcount=5054

If we get a few dry days in the next week, my drained land will be dry enough for reseeding. We haven't been able to cross it with a tractor in years, but now it has all soaked out - absolutely amazed at the results.

Have found a company that supplies the geotextile cloth for pipes - it comes pre sewn and you just slide it on over a drainage pipe. Easy way to do it would be to put 4 inch cloth onto 3 inch pipe. Company are based in USA so hoping that they might post to me, if not I'll have to get on to the yankee cousins. Hope to drain another field this way and do it with ordinary drainage pipe covered in this cloth. Should cost approximately 40% less than Connacht agri pipe!

Figerty

reilig wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85814952&postcount=5054

If we get a few dry days in the next week, my drained land will be dry enough for reseeding. We haven't been able to cross it with a tractor in years, but now it has all soaked out - absolutely amazed at the results.

Have found a company that supplies the geotextile cloth for pipes - it comes pre sewn and you just slide it on over a drainage pipe. Easy way to do it would be to put 4 inch cloth onto 3 inch pipe. Company are based in USA so hoping that they might post to me, if not I'll have to get on to the yankee cousins. Hope to drain another field this way and do it with ordinary drainage pipe covered in this cloth. Should cost approximately 40% less than Connacht agri pipe!

Keep us posted on this if you are successful.