Land Improvements thread

moy83

reilig wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85814952&postcount=5054

If we get a few dry days in the next week, my drained land will be dry enough for reseeding. We haven't been able to cross it with a tractor in years, but now it has all soaked out - absolutely amazed at the results.

Have found a company that supplies the geotextile cloth for pipes - it comes pre sewn and you just slide it on over a drainage pipe. Easy way to do it would be to put 4 inch cloth onto 3 inch pipe. Company are based in USA so hoping that they might post to me, if not I'll have to get on to the yankee cousins. Hope to drain another field this way and do it with ordinary drainage pipe covered in this cloth. Should cost approximately 40% less than Connacht agri pipe!

That geotextile cloth is some stuff , I got some of it off an engineer last year for covering a roof while we plastered over it . We walked on it over the slates (he told us we could so I was happy enough to put it to the test ) and we hosed morter down off it two evenings in a row . Not a bit of it stained the slates even though the water soaked through it didnt let a grain of cement or lime or sand through .

Figerty

moy83 wrote: »

That geotextile cloth is some stuff , I got some of it off an engineer last year for covering a roof while we plastered over it . We walked on it over the slates (he told us we could so I was happy enough to put it to the test ) and we hosed morter down off it two evenings in a row . Not a bit of it stained the slates even though the water soaked through it didnt let a grain of cement or lime or sand through .

Is that the plastic breathable membrane the use instead of roofing felt? That stuff is different to the drainage materials the drainage stuff is more like a filter material.

Conmaicne Mara

reilig wrote: »

He also said that if there was money in the kitty, it would be for to improve quality and educate farmers as opposed to capital spending!

That's the right thing to do. Lads can have the best of tractors, sheds, yards, landcruiser etc, then you look at the little scuttery hoors rambling around on four legs around the place. Forcing fellas to do a bit of thinking and changing of ways will be a good thing IMO.

Midlandsman80

This may be slightly off topic but how do fellas who carry out improvements to rented land normally work it out with the owner. I know currently of 26 acres with slatted shed that will be coming up for rent shortly, I am considering taking it. It has never been reseeded in 20+ years for sure and could be more.. 90% of it is high and dry and even the remainder is not at all bad, its location it is very very handy for me, I don't have land this would be a first go at farming fully on my own.

I suppose a long lease and you would get a lot of value out of work carried out but I am wondering if there is a standard/normal framework for balancing these costs..I have no machinery for carrying out this work so all would be contracted...
its currently making €150pa pa...
The owner is not a farmer and he would get customers for it fairly easily...

moy83

Figerty wrote: »

Is that the plastic breathable membrane the use instead of roofing felt? That stuff is different to the drainage materials the drainage stuff is more like a filter material.

No this stuff was like feally dense cloth

reilig

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

That's the right thing to do. Lads can have the best of tractors, sheds, yards, landcruiser etc, then you look at the little scuttery hoors rambling around on four legs around the place. Forcing fellas to do a bit of thinking and changing of ways will be a good thing IMO.

I think what he was saying was that there will be no money to do any capital works or education, but if they did have money, education would be the priority. As much as I would love to see grants for drainage etc. the saying about teaching a man to fish comes to mind.

gozunda

bbam wrote: »

Has anyone heard talk of a drainage grant coming down the line?
Some farmers I've talked to recently are talking about one being put in place, but I haven't seen any mention in the comic or anywhere..

Is this just wishful thinking??

Havn't seen any mention if this tbh
With or without grant aid I think it is still more important to look at the overall picture of any specific land holding and not just any one boggy field

If looking at the flooding that has happened in recent years especially where eejit developers pushed for devopment along flood plains - the result that these natural flood plains flooded - and the houses built on them DESPITE 'drainage' provision

If you consider a farm or holding as a whole it is useful to look at how water drains over the entire area and not just a field that may traditional ly had have poor drainage - look at the land and topography and ask yourself why is this area wetter than others?

Flood plains along rivers are there to deal with exceptional flooding events and boggy ground can take in huge volumes of water and prevent larger areas becoming flooded and then slowly releases these masses of water over time

Boggy areas ( usually low lying) will act as a reservoir for excess rainfall and release large amounts of rainfall Slowly and act as a natural but controlled sponge

Attempt to drain every piece of flood plain and / or boggy ground and in my experience such land and adjacent areas wil eventually lead to flooding and rising water table levels over a much bigger area

Take a look at your farm / landholding and look at the overall drainage with regard to the excesses of rainfall experienced. Not every piece single piece of ground is either a) suitable or b) economic to turn over to massive input for limited improvements in yield or grass growth

Drainage plans for entire sites allowing for reservoirs and flood plains makes a hell of a lot more sense than going gungho at draining every scrap of boggy meadow without looking at the bigger picture

Get a a good field map and looking at the gradients and contours and natural drainage will save a lot of money imo.

Conmaicne Mara

reilig wrote: »

the saying about teaching a man to fish comes to mind.

Exactly what I had been thinking.

mf240

reilig wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85814952&postcount=5054

If we get a few dry days in the next week, my drained land will be dry enough for reseeding. We haven't been able to cross it with a tractor in years, but now it has all soaked out - absolutely amazed at the results.

!

Bet you will be amazed how well it takes rain after this.

When bog dries out it properly it takes a lot to wet it.

Figerty

gozunda wrote: »

Havn't seen any mention if this tbh
With or without grant aid I think it is still more important to look at the overall picture of any specific land holding and not just any one boggy field

If looking at the flooding that has happened in recent years especially where eejit developers pushed for devopment along flood plains - the result that these natural flood plains flooded - and the houses built on them DESPITE 'drainage' provision

If you consider a farm or holding as a whole it is useful to look at how water drains over the entire area and not just a field that may traditional ly had have poor drainage - look at the land and topography and ask yourself why is this area wetter than others?

Flood plains along rivers are there to deal with exceptional flooding events and boggy ground can take in huge volumes of water and prevent larger areas becoming flooded and then slowly releases these masses of water over time

Boggy areas ( usually low lying) will act as a reservoir for excess rainfall and release large amounts of rainfall Slowly and act as a natural but controlled sponge

Attempt to drain every piece of flood plain and / or boggy ground and in my experience such land and adjacent areas wil eventually lead to flooding and rising water table levels over a much bigger area

Take a look at your farm / landholding and look at the overall drainage with regard to the excesses of rainfall experienced. Not every piece single piece of ground is either a) suitable or b) economic to turn over to massive input for limited improvements in yield or grass growth

Drainage plans for entire sites allowing for reservoirs and flood plains makes a hell of a lot more sense than going gungho at draining every scrap of boggy meadow without looking at the bigger picture

Get a a good field map and looking at the gradients and contours and natural drainage will save a lot of money imo.

Isn't that why the gov. brought in regulations last year on the amount of drainage that could be carried out.. of course the building boom was over at that stage.

You points are fair enough and while the big picture might be flood plains and environmental concerns most of the work done he is improvement works given the change in climate in the last few years. You can argue what caused that change.

I was draining today, an area of about 1/4 acre of traditional meadow. For the last five years you can't put your foot on it. My grandparents, parents etc. cut hay there but I haven't been able to work that land for 10 years. Why.. 4 inches of soil, then mud. The mud doesn't transport water, the surface can't so artificial drainage will have to be done.

Most of the boggy ground here is at the bottom of hills in the valleys. This is the run off from erosion from centuries; its not flood plains, its not dry land but it can be very productive. This was garden land years ago, but now its full of springs that weren't there previously. Drainage will return this land to productive use.

Most people on this thread are restoring productivity and not draining flood plains.
Funny thing about people buying houses.. if they had looked that the names of the old townlands they might have thought differently about purchasing..
Corcaigh.... Dunsalach,,, etc...

Figerty

Doing the last bit of drainage this year, could barely drive this with the mini-digger. Big soft green grass that isn't worth a damn as the cattle will destroy it walking on it.

I have a nine inch bucket that I use for drains; I don't have a tile drain bucket. It doesn't leave a clean edge especially when the place is wringing wet. That was bone dry at the base but drowned wet on top yesterday evening and has a couple inches of water block from bits falling in.

Plan is to put pea gravel in the base, pipe it, and stone it to the top ASAP. I had to take the earth cover on another drain nearby and expose the stone again as it was just sealed with earth. The top was wringing with water and the drain pipe was nearly bone dry. The water won't soak efficiently on this ground.

moy83

There was alot of draining done years ago by previous generations . Small drains but going the right places and cleaned every year with the drag, billhook and fork .
I know one wet farm that milked forty cows and cut all their silage off bog more or less . The father would have spent good many weeks cleaning drains every year but he cocked his toes and the son was too busy to be bothered with drainage . The milkers are gone and it holds about 15 ponies now instead . He cant top half them gardens now they are gone so wet .
Drainage is not a once off job , they dont be long closing up again

Muckit

Try parcel2go.com reilig. they suss out the cheapest freight company for you. Used them afew times getting stuff back from uk

gozunda

Figerty wrote: »

...

I was draining today, an area of about 1/4 acre of traditional meadow. For the last five years you can't put your foot on it. My grandparents, parents etc. cut hay there but I haven't been able to work that land for 10 years. Why.. 4 inches of soil, then mud. The mud doesn't transport water, the surface can't so artificial drainage will have to be done.

Most of the boggy ground here is at the bottom of hills in the valleys. This is the run off from erosion from centuries; its not flood plains, its not dry land but it can be very productive. This was garden land years ago, but now its full of springs that weren't there previously. Drainage will return this land to productive use.

Most people on this thread are restoring productivity and not draining flood plains.
Funny thing about people buying houses.. if they had looked that the names of the old townlands they might have thought differently about purchasing..
Corcaigh.... Dunsalach,,, etc...

I think you have hit the nail on the head there tbh.

However flood plains and boggy land are Not the same thing.

On flood plains housing development as well as extensive agricultural drainage can unfortunately have the effect - of potentially leading to locally and often damaging flooding

Flood plains are features of river catchments and traditionally flooded once or more a year. These areas were grazed / or hay saved during the driest times of year only. The allowed flooding helped to control large flood events over the entire catchment area. This type of land management is mainly no longer utilised and such flooding is not part of modern agricultural production cycles

Bringing flood plains into production is possible but not without the knowledge that exceptional flooding will still occur on a periodic basis and it is of note that over an entire river catchment - unregulated especially upstream drainage can have a culumative and negative effect on land further downstream on terms of flooding with possible even more and extreme flooding occurring.

In those areas at the bottom of hills in valleys - and where drainage is limited / rainfall is high and where the rivers provide only a limited outlet and where there has always been higher than average water levels - any selective drainage of such areas will effect neighbouring land



'Boggy' land on the other hand is land where water over a significant period sometimes thousands of years has drowned underlying glacial soils and where peaty deposits have built up due to anaerobic conditions prevailing. These boggy soils can absorb large amounts of water especially where rainfall levels are high (upland and areas in the west notably)

In situations topography can play an important part in high water levels. Such boggy land may be severly limited by impervious sub strata as in blanket bog or trapped topography ie low lying area often surrounded with rising ground with limited or slow outfalls

It can be a catch 22 scenario as not every farm holding has an even distributing of good productive or only seasonaly productive land. However it remains that it is not always advisable or economic to drain all such areas. I would still advocate looking at the larger picture of any single farm holding and provide for high seasonal water levels and management

reilig

Seed, fertilizer and granlime in last night. Ground was blackened with the digger when we put in the pipes so just had to go across it with land leveler to ruffel it up.

It's amazing, land that we couldn't walk on 6 weeks ago, and today we're going out on it with the slurry tanker - only half full mind you, but what will the ground be like when it has 12 months of soakage?

Will roll it over the weekend with ring roller.

bogman_bass

Drains cleared and field limed

bogman_bass

Fair flow coming out of the patch that was drained

whelan1

6 and a half weeks after drainage lads came in they are finsihing up today, they used over 30 loads of stone- i am not paying for it:D- hopefully all will work well, they did 6 weeks on the pipeline and the last 2 days doing a field for me

Conmaicne Mara

whelan1 wrote: »

6 and a half weeks after drainage lads came in they are finsihing up today, they used over 30 loads of stone- i am not paying for it- hopefully all will work well, they did 6 weeks on the pipeline and the last 2 days doing a field for me

How did you manage that, you must make a grand mugga tae altogether

whelan1

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

How did you manage that, you must make a grand mugga tae altogether

bord gais pipeline went through farm a few years ago, they left the land in a bad way, hopefully all will be sorted now:D

Sharpshooter82

mf240 wrote: »

When bog dries out it properly it takes a lot to wet it.

This is true. I was amazed how far i got into the bank this year with a 12 ton dumo trailer. Most years i had to leave it out of the bank on the side of the road

Figerty

I'd say it needs to be drained.....

ABlur

Figerty wrote: »

I'd say it needs to be drained.....

Have you had any difficulty using the mini digger to make the drains, what ton is it?

Figerty

Not much trouble with it. I have rubber tracks on it which are probably not as good on soft ground as steel, but I can drive on tarmac without damaging it.

It's a slow 3 ton Kubota, but strong. You can get 'pulled' along on soft ground, but its only a matter of balancing the forces. Last year was a nightmare and I just decided to open drains, make a mess and tidy it up but it seriously paid off this year.

I use a nine inch bucket and try and leave the bottom as flat and clean as possible. I have a 1metre grading bucket for levelling out afterwards or cleaning drains from the side.

Great work done this year and I can do it in my own time, drawing with a transport box is slow, but I can't travel some of the ground some other way. This ground is right mess, but it's the last of the worst of it. I'll post a picture of the results of last years work to show the difference.

reilig

Figerty wrote: »

I'd say it needs to be drained.....

I got a drain into a field as wet as that. I got the digger to open the drain with a 6 inch bucket and I put a 3 inch pipe into it after a sprinkle of chips on the bottom. Left it open for 3 weeks and got it filled to the top with stone last weekend when it had dried out sufficiently to let me get as far as it with the power box. Took 40 ton of stone for 100 meters though. :eek: Worth it because its at the entrance to the field and cattle have to cross it to get to the drier parts.

Farmer Pudsey

Figerty wrote: »

I'd say it needs to be drained.....

Figerty
Will you have to put pebble drains accross it to get it really freed draining. How far apart are the darains you put in. The field lookgs fairly flat.

Figerty

Yes; there are some cross drains added to try and get the water table down.
This has been a problem piece of ground for years. 20 years ago my father did drainage on it and we filled the drains up with pea gravel but capped it with earth. I rodded the drains, but there was very little in it and the stone is still clean.

The original drains were still working but no water was getting down to the pipe. I had to strip back the top of the drains and replace it with gravel; these take a lot of gravel as they aren't neat.

I added some cut off drains on the hill to cathch water and some diagonal drains to the existing main drain. When added the diagonal drains I came across a line of stoney area that seems to be man made years ago. I suspect the heavy tractors packed this area and stopped it working.

I have also added a long drain near by in an area where I suspect there was an old drain. The whole thing is a right mess now; but I will level it; seed it and hopefully get the benifit next year.

Figerty

Drain I finished about a month ago. At the end of it, when digging, I found an old land drain. a couple of hundred gallons of water flew out of it over the course of a few hours. Slowed to a trickle and the ground sunk around it.

Bit of tidying up and tracking with the digger after wards brought it neat.
Stone all the way to the top. I should have shaken seed on it, but I never got around to it.

Farmer Pudsey

My own opinion is that we fail to seal top of drains. This I s part of reason that they block. If you used straw about 3-4'' down and soil on top it would create a barrier at the top of drain.

Figerty

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

My own opinion is that we fail to seal top of drains. This I s part of reason that they block. If you used straw about 3-4'' down and soil on top it would create a barrier at the top of drain.

I have heard of this being done. The French used to do something similar with sod drains. They used to cut branches of tree and put them under the sod drains to support the layer of sod; they would last for years.

I had this discussion with a soils expert; for this region where there are heavy clay soils moisture transport through soils is so slow as being almost irrelevant. He told me of a study in New Zealand where they put drains parallel like I have done. The added a marker die to the ground (what it was I don't know) and tracked it's progress. It took something like over 6 weeks to move 6 feet or so through the soil, I think it was more but I can't be sure.

His method for heavy clay soils, based on the research by John Mulqueen, is to use stone with small gaps filled to the top to remove surface water as fast as possible, with a pore size smaller than the opening in the pipes.
In the ground I have, it tends to hold water on the surface so I want to create a way to get the water to the drain pipe fast. I had drains sealed, I had to unseal the top as they weren't getting the water moved fast enough. It depends on soil conditions what the approach is.

just do it

Figerty wrote: »

His method for heavy clay soils, based on the research by John Mulqueen, is to use stone with small gaps filled to the top to remove surface water as fast as possible, with a pore size smaller than the opening in the pipes.

Great posts figerty. Agree with this for my soil type as well, water just doesn't move through it quickly therefore drainage needs to take it away as quickly as possible. Ideally humps and hollows with stone drains in the hollow to an open trench.

Would have loved to go with the smaller stone but it was just too cost prohibitive so settled on 20mm washed. Put money into the smooth walled rigid pipes though.

Damo810

Could anyone tell me, the general price of Connacht Agri pipe? Per meter/Roll. And would I be right in saying you don't need stone over it? Or is it recommenced. Re-claiming some boggy ground.

just do it

Lads

Something I've been mulling over since a recent discussion group meeting. The host farmer has done alot of drainage work in the last few years and promotes going deep with drains. I've definitely hit water when I got my main trenches deepened. So why? My conclusion is you've to get the drain below the impermeable sub-soil later. Under here water moves in mysterious ways! Shallow drains that don't penetrate though the sub-soil layer are really only for removing surface water.

Figerty

just do it wrote: »

Lads

Something I've been mulling over since a recent discussion group meeting. The host farmer has done alot of drainage work in the last few years and promotes going deep with drains. I've definitely hit water when I got my main trenches deepened. So why? My conclusion is you've to get the drain below the impermeable sub-soil later. Under here water moves in mysterious ways! Shallow drains that don't penetrate though the sub-soil layer are really only for removing surface water.

Ya, this is true. The Teagasc booklet has a good drawing of an example of water under ground; particularly around rivers. Some rivers are fed from underneath as much as from above.

A neighbour got a spring out of rock tested lately. The water wasn't potable; bacteria present. He asked an council engineer about it. He said the source of contamination could 5-10 miles away, Water moves through the rock under hydraulic pressure and comes up where ever it pleases!

reilig

Damo810 wrote: »

Could anyone tell me, the general price of Connacht Agri pipe? Per meter/Roll. And would I be right in saying you don't need stone over it? Or is it recommenced. Re-claiming some boggy ground.

€2.80 per meter. It comes in 3 meter lengths, not rolls. No stone needed in the drains - but you need to dig the drains with a wide bucket <2ft or a mounding bucket so that you can get down into the drains to join them.

whelan1

great to see water running out of drains put in recently

Conmaicne Mara

whelan1 wrote: »

great to see water running out of drains put in recently

I doubt money spent on drainage is ever wasted in this country.

severeoversteer

Figerty wrote: »

I'd say it needs to be drained.....

where did you get that mini digger? looks like my old one

Figerty

severeoversteer wrote: »

where did you get that mini digger? looks like my old one

Bought it second hand from a fella in Limerick. Joe Duffy did an hour an half on him on the radio about two years later......

Was that you?

severeoversteer

Figerty wrote: »

Bought it second hand from a fella in Limerick. Joe Duffy did an hour an half on him on the radio about two years later......

Was that you?

well the kubota i had changed hands a few times since i sold it nearly 10 years ago, it had a canopy and i put a cab on it, im in galway,

id reckon its on its 3rd owner since me anyway

Figerty

This fella had it for years before I got it. Joe Duffy had a field day on 'the fella with orange digger that would come in, start a job take the money and rub.

I remember driving down by Colmanstown near Athenry one day about 10 years ago and spotting a digger very similar to the one in the photo. I have that one since 2005. rakes of work done with it.

just do it

reilig wrote: »

Seed, fertilizer and granlime in last night. Ground was blackened with the digger when we put in the pipes so just had to go across it with land leveler to ruffel it up.

It's amazing, land that we couldn't walk on 6 weeks ago, and today we're going out on it with the slurry tanker - only half full mind you, but what will the ground be like when it has 12 months of soakage?

Will roll it over the weekend with ring roller.

How's it holding up now reilig after all the rain? Will you manage to graze it?

reilig

just do it wrote: »

How's it holding up now reilig after all the rain? Will you manage to graze it?

I have the lambs starting on it this week.

There is no dry ground around here now - but this is the driest. You could cross it with the tractor but cattle on it would poach it - and i just don't want that for new ground. I'm going to have it set up that the autumn calves will be able to go out from the shed through the creep gate daily and graze it from Christmas on.

Water flowing out of the drains all the time - - rain or sun.

Only problem is that the soil over the drains has sunk down from the drying. I'll have to mow parallel to the drains.

Attie

Took advantage of good weather to do some mole ploughing.












Have short video but can't seem to get it to upload to Imageshack :mad:

Might work on UTube.

http://youtu.be/tuJWLFWyOzk

tomo75

Attie wrote: »

Took advantage of good weather to do some mole ploughing.




http://youtu.be/tuJWLFWyOzk

What hp would you need for mole ploughing?

Attie

tomo75 wrote: »

What hp would you need for mole ploughing?

Tomo
I used a 8545 Zetor she is screwed out to 90hp and has new boots.
I found that she had plenty HP but you need plenty of weight to give her grip.
It made a great job no water laying on top of ground now .
Attie.

Limestone Cowboy

Sorry to dig up an old thread but hand to keep the same topic together. Have an out farm in the bottom of a valley with a stream starting just outside our boundary. There's 10 acres of a flat field just outside the wall from it and there are 4 or 5 springs wetting a lot of it. As it stands there are no drains what so ever in it. The ground would be a bit sticky but dries out very fast apart from the springs and their surrounding areas. I have no experience of doing drainage work really and I'm wondering what is the best approach to try and dry it out. It has a sufficent fall to get the water to the start of the stream but I don't know how you would tap into the springs. Would you need to put shores in all the area that is currently waterlogged by them or could you dig up the source and try and pipe that directly to a main drain?

Figerty

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Sorry to dig up an old thread but hand to keep the same topic together. Have an out farm in the bottom of a valley with a stream starting just outside our boundary. There's 10 acres of a flat field just outside the wall from it and there are 4 or 5 springs wetting a lot of it. As it stands there are no drains what so ever in it. The ground would be a bit sticky but dries out very fast apart from the springs and their surrounding areas. I have no experience of doing drainage work really and I'm wondering what is the best approach to try and dry it out. It has a sufficent fall to get the water to the start of the stream but I don't know how you would tap into the springs. Would you need to put shores in all the area that is currently waterlogged by them or could you dig up the source and try and pipe that directly to a main drain?

Water comes up where ever it wants to. I did a bit of draining last year on the side of a hill. It wasn't so much a a spring, more water going down all over and coming up in a number of places.
Cut a drain straight through the wet spots and bring to the boundary drain. A very small fall will work if the water has a way to travel.
Get a plan and get a good digger driver in when the ground dries.
Mark the wet spots so you don't forget how bad they are..have a look overhead on Bing maps and see if you can see a pattern in the field.

Mad4simmental

We drained an existing well/spring out of the middle of a field last year and it was a very good job. Dug out a sump and filled it with shoreing stones and brought out a shore about 300M to an existing drain.

Limestone Cowboy

Figerty wrote: »

Water comes up where ever it wants to. I did a bit of draining last year on the side of a hill. It wasn't so much a a spring, more water going down all over and coming up in a number of places.
Cut a drain straight through the wet spots and bring to the boundary drain. A very small fall will work if the water has a way to travel.
Get a plan and get a good digger driver in when the ground dries.
Mark the wet spots so you don't forget how bad they are..have a look overhead on Bing maps and see if you can see a pattern in the field.

Thanks, It should definitely be possible to get enough of a fall alright. I took a picture from bing maps there. The red circles is where the springs are and there is a slight fall from right to left in the pic, the stream starts at the bottom of it and it just comes up from underground about 7 or 8ft below the surface level of my field. Was thinking about putting an open drain along by the boundary on the left and bringing shores off that to the wet spots then.