Dublin Half Mara - 21st Sept

clear thinking

Glad that you are recovering & my sympathy goes to the family and friend of the unfortunate runner who died.

The organisers are amongst the best in the world and did everything they could, hopefully they aren't discouraged by this and it must be pretty tough as they'll be wondering what else could have been done.

Regarding health checks - ECG, check -up with your GP etc. are very important as you may have a heart condition you are unaware of. Many yonug people have died as a result of SADS and screening is simple.

Another risk factor can be a fondness for anti inflamatories. If you are a regular user you should really check with your doctor about combining regular usage in combination with training and possible health issues

SnappyDresser

As someone who helped out at Fingal 10k I know its tough to ensure all particapants are catered for but as most helpers are from BHAA they know running.

911sc

curraghyid wrote: »

Another water station between 11 and 12 wouldn't hurt, sometimes the last mile can be the toughest.

Overhydration brings all sort of other problem.
Here is a book about it for those who would like to know more about it. Very technical content. Some sections are way to hard for me to understand, so focused on the stuff i could understand.

SnappyDresser

911sc wrote: »

Overhydration brings all sort of other problem.
Here is a book about it for those who would like to know more about it. Very technical content. Some sections are way to hard for me to understand, so focused on the stuff i could understand.

I used the water myself 50/50 to pour over head and body and rest to drink.

RacoonQueen

Running along Chesterfield Avenue this morning was very impressed to spot Eoin Ryan, organiser of Clontarf and Wexford half marathons cleaning up the debris left by runners in the race yesterday. 99.9% of us just complain about the mess left by others, nice to see someone get off their arse and clean up other peoples litter. Getting a bag and going out to clean it up myself would never even cross my mind to be honest. Fair play.

StoptheClocks

Elver wrote: »

As one of the collapsees, I'd just like to say an enormous thanks to the extremely kind person who ruined her own race to help me - a total stranger and insisted on staying with me till I was taken away by the ambulance. After all the work we put into training for a race, to give it all up for someone you don't even know is amazingly generous. I really hope you get to see this. I'm sorry I don't remember your name - I was too out if it in the end. Thanks so much. Big thanks also to St John's ambulance who did an fantastic job, with great humour on what must have been a very stressful day. Was very sad to hear about the runner who passed away. Shocking stuff. My heart goes out to his family and friends. Dara

Hi, Check your email. You will have received an email about pictures of you. It's likely Your good samaritan is also in the pictures. You can find their name from their number.
I've ran 5 Dublin half marathons and that was the best organised with the bottles of water. Some people are beyond help when they collapse. It was a tragic accident that the guy collapsed and died. He couldn't have been in a safer place really (unless closer to a defibrillator) . Reports say he was given immediate CPR and the ambulance was with him in minutes.

eldiva

pac_man wrote: »

I know its a bit off topic from the race but I think its important. When people are saying you should get yourself checked, what do I ask my GP or what do I get checked for?

If you can you should ask for an exercise ECG, but normal ECG will suffice

cloneslad

eldiva wrote: »

If you can you should ask for an exercise ECG, but normal ECG will suffice

I must have a look at my VHI to see if it covers stuff like this.

Would a normal GP be fit to to this or should I look at going into one of the private hospitals around Dublin?

Big Logger

PaulieC wrote: »

There were pacers, not pacemakers. Bit of a difference. I'm not sure why the presence or otherwise of pacers would be an issue of any sort, could you explain your reasoning ?
As for water stations, there were three in all, which is approximately one every 4 miles, which is plenty. The man's death was tragic, but let's not start making spurious arguments for and against unrelated things when nobody knows the cause of his death. Now is not the time for making snap judgements.

Pacers/Pacemakers...same difference...lets not get petty about English here.
I read the guys post as saying you shouldn't follow a pacer if you're not in the shape for it in that kind of heat.
I agree about your point on the water though and in most of these cases there is an underlying condition that may or may not be known about.
The other runners who were lucky enough to recover will probably admit that they either were not well beforehand or else didn't look after themselves during the race.

Joleigh

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Running along Chesterfield Avenue this morning was very impressed to spot Eoin Ryan, organiser of Clontarf and Wexford half marathons cleaning up the debris left by runners in the race yesterday. 99.9% of us just complain about the mess left by others, nice to see someone get off their arse and clean up other peoples litter. Getting a bag and going out to clean it up myself would never even cross my mind to be honest. Fair play.

I presumed it would be cleaned up immediately after by the organisers. I noticed a lot of people just taking a few sips of water then throwing half full bottles away. I drank all of mine. Threw one empty away and felt bad. Carried the other empty to the end. I also saw some people struggling in the heat and taking bottles of water off the ground and drinking them. Considered it myself around mile 9.

RacoonQueen

Joleigh wrote: »

I presumed it would be cleaned up immediately after by the organisers. I noticed a lot of people just taking a few sips of water then throwing half full bottles away. I drank all of mine. Threw one empty away and felt bad. Carried the other empty to the end. I also saw some people struggling in the heat and taking bottles of water off the ground and drinking them. Considered it myself around mile 9.

They generally do pick up stuff on Saturday after the race. But stuff like gel wrappers and bottles etc dropped well away from stations/mile markers etc can be easily missed.

It's not really their responsibility to pick up after people too lazy to put gel wrappers back in their pocket anyway.

coward

I had to slow down to a walk to deal with the last hill. Near the top there was a guy that had already completed his race and was now giving encouragement to others. He had been out running before the race too and was combining it for his long run. Anyway, he said come on, lets run together and keep it going until the end - he got me back jogging again and stayed with me until the last corner was in sight and I jogged on. Random stranger, if you do read this, many thanks! The two kids at the last corner that were giving high fives did a great job too. I came away feeling sad having seen someone in serious trouble but also amazed at the help and encouragement that spectators and stewards provided.

Big Logger

coward wrote: »

I had to slow down to a walk to deal with the last hill. Near the top there was a guy that had already completed his race and was now giving encouragement to others. He had been out running before the race too and was combining it for his long run. Anyway, he said come on, lets run together and keep it going until the end - he got me back jogging again and stayed with me until the last corner was in sight and I jogged on. Random stranger, if you do read this, many thanks! The two kids at the last corner that were giving high fives did a great job too. I came away feeling sad having seen someone in serious trouble but also amazed at the help and encouragement that spectators and stewards provided.

Well the guys support certainly encouraged you enough to jog again and was welcome. If someone came up to me and I was feeling sh*t enough to be walking...i'd tell him pi** off and go off and do another 20 miles somewhere else.
It is always nice to see kiddies supporting at races, always puts a smile on my face.
The steward's are legends, a family friend of mine who is 76 has been doing this for years and particularly the past two years since he's stopped running Dublin Marathon due to a collapse of his own and a subsequent pacemaker op.

rob w

coward wrote: »

I had to slow down to a walk to deal with the last hill. Near the top there was a guy that had already completed his race and was now giving encouragement to others. He had been out running before the race too and was combining it for his long run. Anyway, he said come on, lets run together and keep it going until the end - he got me back jogging again and stayed with me until the last corner was in sight and I jogged on. Random stranger, if you do read this, many thanks! The two kids at the last corner that were giving high fives did a great job too. I came away feeling sad having seen someone in serious trouble but also amazed at the help and encouragement that spectators and stewards provided.

Its great to be on the receiving end of support like that, at last years hm i was flagging and got a boost from some guys running along side me, just giving me a shout, and letting me know how far to go etc.!

This year feeling a bit better towards the end, i came across a young american guy 6/700m out from the finish and he was struggling bad. I got him up to match my pace and even got a sprint finish out of him for the last 100m, it was nice to be able to give someone else a bit of a boost this year for a change!

I wonder were the two kids you saw at the end my nephews (two blonde boys on the grass verge on the right hand side), if so theyll be delighted to know they gave someone a boost as they were telling me all about the high fives they were giving the runners! I know i was happy to see them anyway, the spectators were great all around giving support!

eoin ryan

RacoonQueen wrote: »

They generally do pick up stuff on Saturday after the race. But stuff like gel wrappers and bottles etc dropped well away from stations/mile markers etc can be easily missed.

It's not really their responsibility to pick up after people too lazy to put gel wrappers back in their pocket anyway.

Condolences to the family & friends of the young man. RIP

I was just giving a bit of a dig out to the organisers whom I've got to know over the years. Normally the place is 100% spick and span after their races. There was a patch that was missed. Now its done.
We are a small community 'runners'. Fair play to anyone who has helped a fellow runner in trouble over the years. Unfortunately we lost a member of our community yesterday. Thoughts are with his friends and family.

coward

rob w wrote: »

I wonder were the two kids you saw at the end my nephews (two blonde boys on the grass verge on the right hand side)

Yes, that was them! Fair play to both of them - great support.

NeedsTraining

For anyone wondering what checks to get done, I'd recommend the Laya health check.

In DCM 2011, I was unfortunate to collapse, but was lucky enough to be looked after by club mates and strangers alike. Spent a night in hospital but got the all clear following a battery of tests.
I've been for ECG's and heart checks since and whilst a heart murmur was found it is not troublesome. At least I can rest in the knowing that its all checked out.
Been for regular checks since too.

We all need to remember we do this because we love it, but we need to look after ourselves also. The blue September campaign for mens cancer and the women's pink ribbon campaign work wonders for their respective areas, so why not have something for runners, or triathletes or general 'get fitters'. maybe we should advocate this promotion?

As Eoin said we lost a member of our community, lets do something to remember him and the unfortunate others before him.

My thoughts and open to feedback and opinion.

Scifo

My heart and sympathy goes out to the family of the person who passed away. It's a shocking thing to happen and I think there's a danger that it might get written off as one of those things, could happen to anyone type rationalising.

I've been reading the comments and they lead me to suspect something that I felt after I crossed the line, that something unusual went on yesterday, which I'm struggling to understand.

I was at the doctor on Friday and put on antibiotics for a mild chest infection. Decided not to start on them until after the race yesterday as I had targeted it months ago as a key session, doing 7.5 miles beforehand at a steady pace before picking it up during the race to bring it over 20 for the day.

I understand that some people will feel that this was foolhardy, but I had been training well for 3 weeks beforehand with the same problem and the doctor gave me the go-ahead.

Felt strong for 9 miles during the race, but when the clouds cleared and I hit the 10th mile I started to feel the pain. I had gone out fast in anticipation of slowing on the hills and this is exactly what happened. The internal conversations started, don't quit your goal, stop looking for excuses with the hills, heat and chest. The target time was still in reach just about, but it took a tough effort, plus the help of the 1:30 pacers who passed me on the hills, to get me there. I'd like to thank the guys for their encouragement, I'd definitely have let my central governor take over otherwise. The last 3 miles were hell and I collapsed when I crossed the line.

Luckily this has happened me once before and I immediately realised it was not serious, it was just my legs buckled as soon as I stopped sprinting just over the line. A lady came over to me and told me to get up asap as I was in the way, which I probably was to be fair, but I wasn't on the ground by choice. Thankfully a man appeared and asked me if I was ok shortly afterwards and I told him that I was ok, just the legs had gone.

Got up and staggered to get the goody bag and then I realised that I was in bits. Had run two mins faster in the Rock n Roll and didn't feel like this. I ran Clontarf in the heat this year and didn't feel like this. Ran Berlin in the heat in 2009 and didn't feel like this. Ran the Wicklow Way Trail this winter in the cold and didn't feel like this. In fact, I rarely recall feeling like this and it seemed to be down to the last 3 miles. I sat down for a while and relaxed until I felt like I could walk back to the car after about 15 mins.

I think a lot of people might have gone out too fast with the cooler temperatures caused by the cloud cover and the downhill start, looking to get some time in the bank for the hilly miles. I certainly did. I took on water at all stations including 10 miles, and this caused a shortness of breath as it typically does whilst you struggle to drink and run. I wasn't wearing a hrm, but I imagine my heart rate temporarily spiked at this stage. The difference this time was you were straight into the military hill after that water stop and I never really recovered normal breathing after that.

I think it's important to try and understand what happened yesterday, especially because someone lost their life. We don't know how many more people were dangerously close to that level of distress without knowing it but in all my years running it seemed that there was an atypical amount of people who required assistance.

Now we can instantly dismiss it as a black swan event, but I think it is important to solicit feedback, especially from experienced runners, to establish if something else was going on. It is entirely possible that the tragedy is clouding my senses, but we are foolish if we don't ask the questions.

In no way am I suggesting that the organisation had anything to do with this, as I think it was as it has ever been for this series i.e. spot on. I just think there may have been a perfect storm of conditions yesterday that meant the risks were higher, and I think I probably got caught out with a false sense of security with the initial cloudy conditions and too fast a start.....thoughts?

Big Logger

Scifo wrote: »

My heart and sympathy goes out to the family of the person who passed away. It's a shocking thing to happen and I think there's a danger that it might get written off as one of those things, could happen to anyone type rationalising.

I've been reading the comments and they lead me to suspect something that I felt after I crossed the line, that something unusual went on yesterday, which I'm struggling to understand.

I was at the doctor on Friday and put on antibiotics for a mild chest infection. Decided not to start on them until after the race yesterday as I had targeted it months ago as a key session, doing 7.5 miles beforehand at a steady pace before picking it up during the race to bring it over 20 for the day.

I understand that some people will feel that this was foolhardy, but I had been training well for 3 weeks beforehand with the same problem and the doctor gave me the go-ahead.

Felt strong for 9 miles during the race, but when the clouds cleared and I hit the 10th mile I started to feel the pain. I had gone out fast in anticipation of slowing on the hills and this is exactly what happened. The internal conversations started, don't quit your goal, stop looking for excuses with the hills, heat and chest. The target time was still in reach just about, but it took a tough effort, plus the help of the 1:30 pacers who passed me on the hills, to get me there. I'd like to thank the guys for their encouragement, I'd definitely have let my central governor take over otherwise. The last 3 miles were hell and I collapsed when I crossed the line.

Luckily this has happened me once before and I immediately realised it was not serious, it was just my legs buckled as soon as I stopped sprinting just over the line. A lady came over to me and told me to get up asap as I was in the way, which I probably was to be fair, but I wasn't on the ground by choice. Thankfully a man appeared and asked me if I was ok shortly afterwards and I told him that I was ok, just the legs had gone.

Got up and staggered to get the goody bag and then I realised that I was in bits. Had run two mins faster in the Rock n Roll and didn't feel like this. I ran Clontarf in the heat this year and didn't feel like this. Ran Berlin in the heat in 2009 and didn't feel like this. Ran the Wicklow Way Trail this winter in the cold and didn't feel like this. In fact, I rarely recall feeling like this and it seemed to be down to the last 3 miles. I sat down for a while and relaxed until I felt like I could walk back to the car after about 15 mins.

I think a lot of people might have gone out too fast with the cooler temperatures caused by the cloud cover and the downhill start, looking to get some time in the bank for the hilly miles. I certainly did. I took on water at all stations including 10 miles, and this caused a shortness of breath as it typically does whilst you struggle to drink and run. I wasn't wearing a hrm, but I imagine my heart rate temporarily spiked at this stage. The difference this time was you were straight into the military hill after that water stop and I never really recovered normal breathing after that.

I think it's important to try and understand what happened yesterday, especially because someone lost their life. We don't know how many more people were dangerously close to that level of distress without knowing it but in all my years running it seemed that there was an atypical amount of people who required assistance.

Now we can instantly dismiss it as a black swan event, but I think it is important to solicit feedback, especially from experienced runners, to establish if something else was going on. It is entirely possible that the tragedy is clouding my senses, but we are foolish if we don't ask the questions.

In no way am I suggesting that the organisation had anything to do with this, as I think it was as it has ever been for this series i.e. spot on. I just think there may have been a perfect storm of conditions yesterday that meant the risks were higher, and I think I probably got caught out with a false sense of security with the initial cloudy conditions and too fast a start.....thoughts?

I just can't get over that a Doctor gave you the go ahead to race a half marathon yet thought your chest infection was bad enough to warrant an antibiotic. Either your Doc gives out antibiotics willy nilly or he under estimates the effort required to run 1.30ish pace for 13 miles.

I personally think if a runner who is fit enough to be running at the pace that guy was running and at that age collapses, then they have an underlying condition.

I'm not sure its really appropriate to be discussing it until something official comes out but it is the usual reason something of this nature occurs to someone so young.

M.J.M.C

Some more info:
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/family-of-dead-runner-consoled-by-relatives-29598524.html

http://www.rip.ie/showdn.php?dn=205357

drquirky

Scifo wrote: »

My heart and sympathy goes out to the family of the person who passed away. It's a shocking thing to happen and I think there's a danger that it might get written off as one of those things, could happen to anyone type rationalising.

I've been reading the comments and they lead me to suspect something that I felt after I crossed the line, that something unusual went on yesterday, which I'm struggling to understand.

I was at the doctor on Friday and put on antibiotics for a mild chest infection. Decided not to start on them until after the race yesterday as I had targeted it months ago as a key session, doing 7.5 miles beforehand at a steady pace before picking it up during the race to bring it over 20 for the day.

I understand that some people will feel that this was foolhardy, but I had been training well for 3 weeks beforehand with the same problem and the doctor gave me the go-ahead.

Felt strong for 9 miles during the race, but when the clouds cleared and I hit the 10th mile I started to feel the pain. I had gone out fast in anticipation of slowing on the hills and this is exactly what happened. The internal conversations started, don't quit your goal, stop looking for excuses with the hills, heat and chest. The target time was still in reach just about, but it took a tough effort, plus the help of the 1:30 pacers who passed me on the hills, to get me there. I'd like to thank the guys for their encouragement, I'd definitely have let my central governor take over otherwise. The last 3 miles were hell and I collapsed when I crossed the line.

Luckily this has happened me once before and I immediately realised it was not serious, it was just my legs buckled as soon as I stopped sprinting just over the line. A lady came over to me and told me to get up asap as I was in the way, which I probably was to be fair, but I wasn't on the ground by choice. Thankfully a man appeared and asked me if I was ok shortly afterwards and I told him that I was ok, just the legs had gone.

Got up and staggered to get the goody bag and then I realised that I was in bits. Had run two mins faster in the Rock n Roll and didn't feel like this. I ran Clontarf in the heat this year and didn't feel like this. Ran Berlin in the heat in 2009 and didn't feel like this. Ran the Wicklow Way Trail this winter in the cold and didn't feel like this. In fact, I rarely recall feeling like this and it seemed to be down to the last 3 miles. I sat down for a while and relaxed until I felt like I could walk back to the car after about 15 mins.

I think a lot of people might have gone out too fast with the cooler temperatures caused by the cloud cover and the downhill start, looking to get some time in the bank for the hilly miles. I certainly did. I took on water at all stations including 10 miles, and this caused a shortness of breath as it typically does whilst you struggle to drink and run. I wasn't wearing a hrm, but I imagine my heart rate temporarily spiked at this stage. The difference this time was you were straight into the military hill after that water stop and I never really recovered normal breathing after that.

I think it's important to try and understand what happened yesterday, especially because someone lost their life. We don't know how many more people were dangerously close to that level of distress without knowing it but in all my years running it seemed that there was an atypical amount of people who required assistance.

Now we can instantly dismiss it as a black swan event, but I think it is important to solicit feedback, especially from experienced runners, to establish if something else was going on. It is entirely possible that the tragedy is clouding my senses, but we are foolish if we don't ask the questions.

In no way am I suggesting that the organisation had anything to do with this, as I think it was as it has ever been for this series i.e. spot on. I just think there may have been a perfect storm of conditions yesterday that meant the risks were higher, and I think I probably got caught out with a false sense of security with the initial cloudy conditions and too fast a start.....thoughts?

Yup. Pretty silly running w/ a chest infection and holding off on the antibiotics.
For a bit of context, US researchers have studied all 11 million people who completed a marathon in the USA from 2000-2011. Of this huge number, there were 53 cardiac arrests and 41 deaths in the marathon or immediately following it. I'd be fairly confident that if you took 11 million people randomly over any given several hour period, you'd come out w/ similar stats.

This was an absolutely terrible tragedy but lets not start questioning the safety of running. it is an incredibly safe sport unless a) you have an underlying condition or b) you ignore things like real illness/ hydration etc etc...

Cartman78

pac_man wrote: »

I know its a bit off topic from the race but I think its important. When people are saying you should get yourself checked, what do I ask my GP or what do I get checked for?

Ask GP about cardiac screening and where/when you can get this done.

Alternatively, contact your health insurer and enquire what services they can provide/recommend.

My company had Heartaid on-site recently, so had the full check done. Have heard of a few people (including one marathon runner) who were sent for follow up consultations following the initial screening.

Oops69

This was a sudden unexpected death and as such will mandate a coroners inquest in due course , I wish people would stop the idle speculation out of respect for his family

drquirky

Oops69 wrote: »

This was a sudden unexpected death and as such will mandate a coroners inquest in due course , I wish people would stop the idle speculation out of respect for his family

Hasn't actually been any speculation that I can see in the thread? We are runners- these are important issues to discuss- I actually think that the thread has been really respectful and informative.

Kurt Godel

drquirky wrote: »

Yup. Pretty silly running w/ a chest infection and holding off on the antibiotics.
For a bit of context, US researchers have studied all 11 million people who completed a marathon in the USA from 2000-2011. Of this huge number, there were 53 cardiac arrests and 41 deaths in the marathon or immediately following it. I'd be fairly confident that if you took 11 million people randomly over any given several hour period, you'd come out w/ similar stats.

This was an absolutely terrible tragedy but lets not start questioning the safety of running. it is an incredibly safe sport unless a) you have an underlying condition or b) you ignore things like real illness/ hydration etc etc...

Absolutely, the risk of having a heart attack remains the same whether this poor unfortunate had chosen not to run on Saturday, and how many would then be worried enough to have an ECG/health screening? (not to suggest thats a bad thing though)

Here's the NEJM article that drquirky mentioned- argue the science all you want, but individual cases do not change your personal risk.

Here's a RW discussion with the reports author Aaron Baggish.

plodder

Personally, I think regular GP checkups are the way to go. They can look at all the risk factors and advise whether more specialised tests are needed. High tech health screening isn't always needed and can be expensive imho.

Oops69

drquirky wrote: »

Hasn't actually been any speculation that I can see in the thread? We are runners- these are important issues to discuss- I actually think that the thread has been really respectful and informative.

I will record that I disagree with you no more

cloneslad

Oops69 wrote: »

This was a sudden unexpected death and as such will mandate a coroners inquest in due course , I wish people would stop the idle speculation out of respect for his family

drquirky wrote: »

Hasn't actually been any speculation that I can see in the thread? We are runners- these are important issues to discuss- I actually think that the thread has been really respectful and informative.

Oops69 wrote: »

I will record that I disagree with you no more

I can see where you are coming from Oops69, but I think it's more that a sudden death occurring at the race has caused people to look further into getting checks done on themselves.

Whatever happened to the young man that passed away is terrible, the conversation has now moved on to ensuring / educating others on medical checks to ensure we do all we can to lower any risks we have on ourselves.

cb102

Many thanks to the 90min pacers on the Half on Saturday, especially on the hills.
Ye helped my achieve my sub 90 goal for my first half.
thanks

HTCJoeSoap

Didn't get to run on Saturday, but was shocked to bits when I heard about the young guy who died. RIP. Us runners are all a family. I run daily in the Phoenix Park and I'll be thinking of him every time I go to run up Military Road (what we locally call the S-bends). Its just an idea, but I think the organisers should rename the Dublin Half-Marathon in honour of his memory or organise a race or something at a later date in memory of him.