Advice on Feral Cats

boomerang

mitosis wrote: »

Am I right in saying they are classified as vermin in law?

No.

Domesticated animals including cats are given explicit protection under Irish law, whereas feral cats "'living in a wild state" are not. It's still illegal to deliberately cause them to suffer, however. It's not that they are classified as vermin, but rather they don't fit into any neat category. To be classified as vermin, there would have to be legal guidelines dictating who/how/when they can be culled - and there aren't any such guidelines, as there are for wild species.

The problem here is that you cannot divide the feline population into two, well delineated camps, domesticated and feral. It's a behavioural continuum, and most cats considered feral are actually just semi-ferals, well used to people and trusting to a degree, but who won't allow any physical contact. These cats typically do have people that feed them and loosely own them. Cat ownership is a fairly nebulous affair in this country anyways! And many of these cats can and do tame over time, especially once neutered. Then we have pet cats who are very skittish and nervous by nature, who can easily be mistaken for semi-ferals.

True feral cats are actually in a very small minority, and very rarely seen, as they totally eschew all human contact.

kylith

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I don't know why, but there has always been a very peculiar attitude in Ireland towards cats, strays and ferals in particular. There are so many people out there who still have the 'sure let them starve' attitude that makes me sick to my stomach. They are the same sort of people, in my opinion, who feel no pity when they see a starving or sick stray and will just turn a blind eye to a suffering cat, but show them a neglected dog and they'd almost call for the death penalty for the culprit.

But on the other hand; people who own cats will let them roam, annoying other people in their neighbourhood, and exposing the cats to risk of death by disease, predation, fighting with other cats, or being hit by a car, but if a dog was treated that way by the people who owned it these same people would be up in arms. Basically, if a cat's owners do not appear to take any responsibility for their cat, by exposing it to the above mentioned risks, then why is should it be the responsibility of the public to care for it? How many of the cats in these colonies used to be someone's pet that just didn't come home one day? How many threads do we see on here of people's cats going missing and everyone says 'Oh, he'll be back eventually' and 'He's probably just moved in with someone else'. How is that an acceptable attitude to have toward an animal that you're supposed to be responsible for?

I have the utmost respect and admiration for the work done by Boomerang, and people like her with ferals and strays. Until recent years there have been very few people trying to do anything for the ferals. I have a former feral and he is a wonderful cat. All 3 of our cats were strays that nobody wanted and would have starved if they hadn't found us.

I too would respect people who help straying animals, but I believe that a fundamental change in the attitude of many cat owners is needed before we can see any change in the number of ferals in this country. Not neutering your cat is irresponsible. Allowing your pet cat to roam is irresponsible. Allowing your unneutered pet cat to roam is beyond irresponsible.

I'm disgusted by people who perpetuate the attitude of 'starve em and they'll move on'. To be honest people, I pity those of you with that attitude and I sincerely hope that you don't pass it on to your offspring. Whatever about your pitiless personal opinion about homeless cats, but it's disgusting to be trying to use that bizarre attitude to undermine the wonderful work done by those trying to make life better for vulnerable cats.

Do you take the same attitude to all animals that you do to these cats? Would a person have a responsibility to feed a colony of foxes near their home? A badger sett? Like it or not feral cats are not pets; they are wild or turned wild, they are predators, they are invasive, they are not part of the Irish eco-system and they contribute to the decline of Irish wildlife.

You spoke about dogs earlier? If you found a colony of terriers living rough would you be of the opinion that they should be TNR and left living on a bit of scrub ground? Do you think that the local people would have a responsibility to feed them? Or do you think they should be trapped, any suitable for rehoming rehomed, and any not suitable euthanised?

These are not the OP's cats. She fed them out of the goodness of her heart and has had to pay for medication, food and vet care for animals that aren't hers. Chances are she cannot afford to pay for food and care for two dozen cats for the foreseeable future. These cats are NOT her responsibility, nor should she be made to feel guilty for not wanting to accept an ongoing financial burden that she didn't want in the first place. She is under no obligation to keep feeding them if she doesn't want to.

muddypaws

kylith wrote: »

These are not the OP's cats. She fed them out of the goodness of her heart and has had to pay for medication, food and vet care for animals that aren't hers. Chances are she cannot afford to pay for food and care for two dozen cats for the foreseeable future. These cats are NOT her responsibility, nor should she be made to feel guilty for not wanting to accept an ongoing financial burden that she didn't want in the first place. She is under no obligation to keep feeding them if she doesn't want to.

Neither are they Boomerang's cats, nor is it her fault or responsiblity. I can't see where people have tried to make the op feel guilty, all I see is the op trying to do the best they can, with support being offered, support from someone who hasn't ever strayed a cat of her own, yet works bloody hard to help animals in need. Really don't understand the negative attitude to Boomerang on this thread, in fact I'd go so far as to say bullying attitude.

kylith

muddypaws wrote: »

Neither are they Boomerang's cats, nor is it her fault or responsiblity. I can't see where people have tried to make the op feel guilty, all I see is the op trying to do the best they can, with support being offered, support from someone who hasn't ever strayed a cat of her own, yet works bloody hard to help animals in need. Really don't understand the negative attitude to Boomerang on this thread, in fact I'd go so far as to say bullying attitude.

What attitude to Boomerang? It was your post I replied to. A post in which you stated that the 'starve them and they'll move on' attitude was disgusting.

Firstly, no-one suggested starving them, but not continuing to feed them, there is a difference. These cats have apparently been doing fine without human feeding for some years.

Saying that not feeding the cats so they'll move on is disgusting is attempting to guilt the OP into continuing to provide food and veterinary care that she has said she cannot afford. She should feel no obligation to provide anything which is beyond her means, or which she is unwilling to, nor should she feel obliged to have dozens of feral cats hanging around her house especially with the risk of disease or injury which that may pose to her own cats.

muddypaws

kylith wrote: »

What attitude to Boomerang? It was your post I replied to. A post in which you stated that the 'starve them and they'll move on' attitude was disgusting.

Firstly, no-one suggested starving them, but not continuing to feed them, there is a difference. These cats have apparently been doing fine without human feeding for some years.

Saying that not feeding the cats so they'll move on is disgusting is attempting to guilt the OP into continuing to provide food and veterinary care that she has said she cannot afford. She should feel no obligation to provide anything which is beyond her means, or which she is unwilling to, nor should she feel obliged to have dozens of feral cats hanging around her house especially with the risk of disease or injury which that may pose to her own cats.

I think you need to go back and check who you're replying to

boomerang

kylith wrote: »

Do you take the same attitude to all animals that you do to these cats? Would a person have a responsibility to feed a colony of foxes near their home? A badger sett? Like it or not feral cats are not pets; they are wild or turned wild, they are predators, they are invasive, they are not part of the Irish eco-system and they contribute to the decline of Irish wildlife.

You spoke about dogs earlier? If you found a colony of terriers living rough would you be of the opinion that they should be TNR and left living on a bit of scrub ground? Do you think that the local people would have a responsibility to feed them? Or do you think they should be trapped, any suitable for rehoming rehomed, and any not suitable euthanised?

These are not the OP's cats. She fed them out of the goodness of her heart and has had to pay for medication, food and vet care for animals that aren't hers. Chances are she cannot afford to pay for food and care for two dozen cats for the foreseeable future. These cats are NOT her responsibility, nor should she be made to feel guilty for not wanting to accept an ongoing financial burden that she didn't want in the first place. She is under no obligation to keep feeding them if she doesn't want to.

Kylith what do you suggest she do, then, to improve her situation? Realistically?

You raise so many points that I'd like to address but I just don't have the heart or the energy to have that detailed a debate right now. It's been done to death in previous threads anyways, and you've held to your own beliefs and opinions throughout. Personally I don't believe we're all entitled to our own opinion, unless it's an informed opinion. And without wanting to cause you any offence, honestly, when I read your posts on the subject, it's clear to me while you have an understanding of the broad issues surrounding true feral cats, you don't really have a handle on how these semi-feral cats behave, interact or what human support they need to survive.

True feral cats are self-sufficient and have reverted to a wild state. There are also very few of them about - I think I've met less than half a dozen.

The kind of cats the OP is dealing with are typical of the majority - loosely owned, semi-tame. They don't survive without a food source. If neutered, fed and provided with basic shelter, they live extremely well.

I feel this is only a theoretical debate for you and you don't feel any compassion for these animals. I suggest we don't waste anymore of each other's time.

mitosis

boomerang wrote: »

Kylith what do you suggest she do, then, to improve her situation? Realistically?

You raise so many points that I'd like to address but I just don't have the heart or the energy to have that detailed a debate right now. It's been done to death in previous threads anyways, and you've held to your own beliefs and opinions throughout. Personally I don't believe we're all entitled to our own opinion, unless it's an informed opinion. And without wanting to cause you any offence, honestly, when I read your posts on the subject, it's clear to me while you have an understanding of the broad issues surrounding true feral cats, you don't really have a handle on how these semi-feral cats behave, interact or what human support they need to survive.

True feral cats are self-sufficient and have reverted to a wild state. There are also very few of them about - I think I've met less than half a dozen.

The kind of cats the OP is dealing with are typical of the majority - loosely owned, semi-tame. They don't survive without a food source. If neutered, fed and provided with basic shelter, they live extremely well.

I feel this is only a theoretical debate for you and you don't feel any compassion for these animals. I suggest we don't waste anymore of each other's time.

Not feral then. OK, but should we then be catching and neutering other people's pets, however "loosely owned" without finding and asking them first. If someone caught and neutered an animal of mine they'd be seeing a judge.

boomerang

Of course not. Any group such as ourselves if alerted about a problem in an area will go door to door first and speak to everyone to get a handle on the number of cats, their colouring, approximate age etc., who feeds them, and where. Usually we're called in by the people who feed the cats, so they know them intimately and can point them out to us individually. We don't just go in and set traps willy-nilly.

If it's a large-scale project with a nebulous number of cats we alert everyone in the neighbourhood to what we're doing and leaflet the night before to say the times we'll have the traps set in the morning and to keep pet cats indoors til we're done. For one thing, we don't want to waste precious funds on neutering a cat that was only out for his morning constitutional and is already neutered! Tame cats typically react very differently in the trap so on top of all the other precautions we take, they're actually pretty easy for us to spot.

kylith

muddypaws wrote: »

I think you need to go back and check who you're replying to

Sorry, not you, Pumpkinseeds.

boomerang wrote: »

Kylith what do you suggest she do, then, to improve her situation? Realistically?

I don't know, but if she doesn't want the cats around her house feeding them isn't going to help her

You raise so many points that I'd like to address but I just don't have the heart or the energy to have that detailed a debate right now. It's been done to death in previous threads anyways, and you've held to your own beliefs and opinions throughout. Personally I don't believe we're all entitled to our own opinion, unless it's an informed opinion. And without wanting to cause you any offence, honestly, when I read your posts on the subject, it's clear to me while you have an understanding of the broad issues surrounding true feral cats, you don't really have a handle on how these semi-feral cats behave, interact or what human support they need to survive.

True feral cats are self-sufficient and have reverted to a wild state. There are also very few of them about - I think I've met less than half a dozen.

That's fair enough, my knowledge of the difference between feral and semi feral is limited.

The kind of cats the OP is dealing with are typical of the majority - loosely owned, semi-tame. They don't survive without a food source. If neutered, fed and provided with basic shelter, they live extremely well.

In the OP's op she said that they'd been feeding them since the start of the year, when the cats were displaced by building work. This would lead me to believe that these cats would not have been being fed before then. The younger ones may be semi-tame, but the older ones may not be.

I feel this is only a theoretical debate for you and you don't feel any compassion for these animals. I suggest we don't waste anymore of each other's time.

Of course I feel compassion for the animals, but I can also empathise with someone who started off feeding a small number of cats and is now overwhelmed by the numbers. And I don't feel that people suggesting that it is now her responsibility to keep caring for these cats is fair to her.

Pumpkinseeds

kylith wrote: »

But on the other hand; people who own cats will let them roam, annoying other people in their neighbourhood, and exposing the cats to risk of death by disease, predation, fighting with other cats, or being hit by a car, but if a dog was treated that way by the people who owned it these same people would be up in arms. Basically, if a cat's owners do not appear to take any responsibility for their cat, by exposing it to the above mentioned risks, then why is should it be the responsibility of the public to care for it? How many of the cats in these colonies used to be someone's pet that just didn't come home one day? How many threads do we see on here of people's cats going missing and everyone says 'Oh, he'll be back eventually' and 'He's probably just moved in with someone else'. How is that an acceptable attitude to have toward an animal that you're supposed to be responsible for?


I too would respect people who help straying animals, but I believe that a fundamental change in the attitude of many cat owners is needed before we can see any change in the number of ferals in this country. Not neutering your cat is irresponsible. Allowing your pet cat to roam is irresponsible. Allowing your unneutered pet cat to roam is beyond irresponsible.



Do you take the same attitude to all animals that you do to these cats? Would a person have a responsibility to feed a colony of foxes near their home? A badger sett? Like it or not feral cats are not pets; they are wild or turned wild, they are predators, they are invasive, they are not part of the Irish eco-system and they contribute to the decline of Irish wildlife.

You spoke about dogs earlier? If you found a colony of terriers living rough would you be of the opinion that they should be TNR and left living on a bit of scrub ground? Do you think that the local people would have a responsibility to feed them? Or do you think they should be trapped, any suitable for rehoming rehomed, and any not suitable euthanised?

These are not the OP's cats. She fed them out of the goodness of her heart and has had to pay for medication, food and vet care for animals that aren't hers. Chances are she cannot afford to pay for food and care for two dozen cats for the foreseeable future. These cats are NOT her responsibility, nor should she be made to feel guilty for not wanting to accept an ongoing financial burden that she didn't want in the first place. She is under no obligation to keep feeding them if she doesn't want to.

There is a vast difference in a roaming pack of dogs and a colony of feral cats, as for the badger reference, I think you're stretching things a bit now Kylith. The OP wants to help the cats as do many people who have strays or ferals in their neighbourhood. Dogs enjoy protection under the Animal Welfare legislation that cats do not, and feral cats do not pose the kinds of risk that dogs do.

My cats are litter trained, insured, vaccinated and neutered, they are allowed to go outdoors, as that is their nature and this is not a pro or anti thread on allowing cats outdoors, so lets not derail it. I really don't understand your attitude of thinking 'lets just kill or allow all stray cats or feral cats to starve or die painfully'. Where exactly do you think that vulnerable cats/kittens go when people stop feeding them?

They slowly starve, often their eyes rot in their heads and they have long, slow agonisinly painful deaths. The government has no interest in helping them and people like you don't give a damn either, so it's people who are kind hearted that make the difference between survival or death, so what's your problem with allowing people to help?, because clearly you do have an issue with cats and you seem to think the best solution is to either starve them to death or kill them for being an inconvenience.

This argument has been done to death, there are people who love animals and would give their last cent to help them and then there are people who have entirely the opposite view. The OP just wanted some practical advice and you seem to be using the thread for your own anti-cat agenda.

kylith

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

This argument has been done to death, there are people who love animals and would give their last cent to help them and then there are people who have entirely the opposite view. The OP just wanted some practical advice and you seem to be using the thread for your own anti-cat agenda.

The anti cat agenda where I want all cats safe and sound in their owners' houses and gardens instead of roaming the neighbourhood risking getting run over, catching all kinds of diseases, being the target of psychopaths, and getting lost and winding up a feral colony?

Yeah, I really hate cats :rolleyes:

Pumpkinseeds

kylith wrote: »

The anti cat agenda where I want all cats safe and sound in their owners' houses and gardens instead of roaming the neighbourhood risking getting run over, catching all kinds of diseases, being the target of psychopaths, and getting lost and winding up a feral colony?

Yeah, I really hate cats :rolleyes:

Yeah it's just the ones that don't have owners that you seem to have an issue with.

kylith

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Yeah it's just the ones that don't have owners that you seem to have an issue with.

I feel sorry for them, but I still think it is unfair for people to attempt to guilt the OP into looking after dozens of cats that don't belong to her if she doesn't have the money or the desire to do so. She has a right to not want them on her property, and continuing to feed them is not going to fix that. TNR is not going to fix that. The only workable solutions that I can see for her problem are either relocation, euthanasia, or removing the food source and waiting for them to move on. None are ideal, especially euthanasia, but, unless you have any suggestions for the OP on how she can deal with the problem of dozens of cats which require food and veterinary attention, removing the food source is probably the best option.

Ideally there would be no feral cats. The only way to accomplish this is for people who own cats to take more responsibility for their pets and then, in conjunction with TNR schemes, the number of feral cats can be reduced to the point of negligibility.

boomerang

Relocation: Moving the cats would take time, as farm homes would have to be found. There mightn't be a group local to her as active as ourselves that would help with that. Logistically, it's difficult as temporary pens/enclosures are needed for the cats at the new location unless there is a shed or out-building that's escape-proof. So only a few cats can be moved at a time. We have four enclosures that we had custom-made and move the cats in groups of three, four or five. The problem with relocating such a large group of cats is that while you are slowly relocating them as farm homes become available, you're upsetting the social order in the colony and that is when newcomers will encroach. That has been my personal experience where we were forced into a corner by an organisation where the cats had lived peacefully on the grounds for ten years. There was a zero increase in cat numbers for three years after we neutered the colony, but since we have moved most of the cats, there's been an influx of new ones, not-neutered. We fundraised to TNR the original colony of sixteen cats. Now the organisation is quickly heading back to square one. There is a food ban in place but it is impossible to enforce, with so many employees. People who feed cats have a deep emotional attachment and it's hard enough to get people not to feed the cats the day before trapping, never mind permanently!

Of course the cats should only be relocated once neutered. Mother cats and kittens can't be moved until such time as the kittens are old enough to neuter, and - again, in my experience - farm homes are not safe for very young animals.

Euthanasia: It would be difficult to find both a rescue group and a vet that were willing to loan their equipment for this purpose and participate in the process. The vet cost of euthanising and disposing of each cat would come in at around the same cost of having them neutered. If relying on a pest control company, the cost would be double that of neutering.

Removing the food source: A quick look at the links I posted earlier on thread will confirm it's not going to work and will cause suffering to the cats.

I'm not trying to guilt the OP into helping these cats. She's a cat lover herself and wants to solve the problem. If no one takes responsibility, well, then the situation is just going to escalate and my own experience, in a lot a cases that means people will get fed up of the nuisances un-neutered ferals cause, and will take matters into their own hands, usually by leaving out poison, which is dangerous, cruel and illegal.

The OP is not alone here either financially or logistically - she has neighbours that are also caring towards the cats. And she has rescues local to her that have shown a willingness to help. Hell, if she was in my neck of the woods we'd have the ball already rolling.

Did you know that all animal welfare organisations in receipt of the annual ex-gratia payment from the Department of Agriculture are required to spend a portion of that funding on TNR?

loveisdivine

Saying "dont feed them and they will move on" is essentially the same as saying starve them to death.
Because then they move on to somewhere else and you tell that person to not feed them and they will move on, then you tell the next person the same thing.

That "solution" is a never ending circle of waiting for cats to move on to somewhere else where they wont be fed, meaning they basically move around looking for food slowly becoming malnourished and eventually dying, either through starvation itself or through some horrible disease they have caught because they are so weak from malnourishment.

Personally I do not favour a mass cull. I strongly oppose the idea that we can fix our problems by just killing things.

Cats may not be native to Ireland but, yet again, its humans that brought them here. Procrastinating over the fact they are not native is entirely useless.

boomerang

The problem is, they don't move on. I can't emphasise enough how such cats are bonded to their territory. And usually we find there is more than one person feeding the cats, so they stay in the immediate area, but now because they have less to eat, they get thin, they get sick and they really start to bother people, because they come closer into people's homes because they are desperate.

It's a problem we have in our town, when the university's student residences close over the summer. A lot of kind-hearted students leave out food for the cats during term-time, and then the cats are left to fend for themselves over the summer. The cats stay around, but they get really thin and malnourished and the kittens die. It's actually the same in a lot of resorts in Spain, Portugal, Greece etc. We'll be doing some publicity in the college in September and over the last twelve months we've begun to get the colonies in the area neutered and have relocated smaller colonies that didn't have someone local to support them year-round.

The same happened in the place I already mentioned where we've had to move a lot of cats. The staff member who always fed them went out on sick-leave and management had a change of tune and directed staff not to feed the cats. The cats stayed put and within three months (which is when we were alerted) the cats had all gotten very thin and fluey. The beautiful long-haired cats lost all their coat to malnutrition. We had to negotiate with management to allow us to step in and feed the cats routinely until they were well enough to be relocated.

snoman

The op has asked for advice and has received it from a variety of viewpoints. I'm sure they are more than capable of making their own mind up about what course of action to take...

deandean

I had a problem with feral cats in my back garden until we got a dog.

The cats never come into my garden now. I see them walking along the back wall but they stay out.

OldNotWIse

feed bans? wtf? How cruel is that! We have a feral "pet" that we trapped and re-released, she comes for food once a day and otherwise leaves us alone. TNR is definitely the way to go and there are charities willing to do this, they even tag the ears so people know they've been done. Cats will breed indiscriminately unless they are neutered. Its not fair on them either!

Edit: sorry should have said "trapped, neutered and released" - trapping and releasing alone will not help lol