Did you baptise your kids? (Atheist parents poll)

clairefontaine

Yes. I don't believe in any of it either. Would rather be a hypocrite than a slave.

Doubt ill do first holy communion, etc, unless I plot a path for Jesuit school, the teachers there explained to us in theology Jesus was in a coma, son of the so called Virgin Mary.

I don't mind cherry pickers, a la carte Catholics. The alternative is fundamentalism. No thanks. Your hypocrisy will save you.

Rev Hellfire

Yep, first one was.
Was handy for a) access to school and b) excuse for party and family get together.

3DataModem

Banbh wrote: »

Those who go along with baptism while not believing in it are setting themselves and their children up for a lot of pressure - communion, confirmation, hospital stays and a lot more.

To the Catholic mind, those kids have 'property of the Catholic Church' stamped on them.

We stood by our beliefs - no baptism or other religious hokum.

Well in my case I feel perfectly secure enough to cherry pick the aspects of the traditions I like without feeling undue pressure from any quarter regarding their upbringing. The catholic minds can believe what they wish - it may give them some comfort in fact - but that's not changing my outlook. If they go to a catholic school (1st choice is CoI, don't know what religion if any second choice is) then they'll no doubt make a communion and confirmation too.

I suppose keeping kids away from these ceremonies altogether avoids having to have discussions about faith etc, but that's seems a bit of a cop out.

I guess it's much easier to be a teetotal than drink in moderation, but drinking in moderation is ultimately the better path.

Cienciano

Dades wrote: »

Mine are baptised, but only because the missis is your average Irish 'catholic' and wanted it.

In other circumstances I wouldn't have had it done, but marriage is all about compromise, people.

I've noticed the compromise is normally the bloke just wanting an easier life! Choose your battles.
Baptising a child to me is meaningless. A bit of water on it's head. I couldn't care less what the church think. It's no different to some voodoo witch doctor doing a dance and telling me my child is now part of their religion. I'm fairly sure when my kids are older and they ask me about god, my arguments against will be better than the wifes. And when the options are going to church on a sunday, or watching the football on TV with dad, I'm sure that will help convince them too!

Bannasidhe

3DataModem wrote: »

I suppose keeping kids away from these ceremonies altogether avoids having to have discussions about faith etc, but that's seems a bit of a cop out.

On this point, I am a bit confused about how you think 'keeping kids away from these ceremonies' when the whole run up/rehearsals etc etc takes place in over 90% of our State funded national schools is avoiding discussion about faith.

Quite the opposite in my experience. My son did not make his communion - he was the only one in his class. He wanted to know what it was and why he wasn't making it - there was a huge amount of discussion and explanation about religion, faith and the meaning/significance of that particular ceremony plus other religious ceremonies he also wasn't participating in like a Bar Mitzvah.

Now, some 20 odd years later my son's daughter is being told she has to make her communion. She wants to know why/what does it mean/what does it do/ Is she required to make any promises - if so what exactly is she expected to promise.
She wants it to be explained to her and have a discussion and is completely frustrated that those who are telling her she must do it are the same people who are refusing to explain why.
The only explanations of the meaning of the ceremony are coming from the atheist side and are very much of the 'Communion means publicly saying you believe in certain things. It is something people who believe in God and the Roman Catholic Church do to show their faith. No, I don't believe in it - but some people do.'

To me, the cop-out is having a child participate in something one thinks is meaningless just because other kids do it - how do you explain that to a child?

'Well love, I think it's a load of crap myself like but sure do it anyway because everyone else is doing it and look at the pretty dress you get to wear and won't you get loads of money....!'

It's either that or lie to your children and pretend to hold a belief in this farce.

Heaven forfend our children should learn to stand on principle and that one does not have to 'go with the flow'.

Akrasia

smcgiff wrote: »

As much as you may like it, this has nothing to do with snobbery. It's simply down to the time that can be taken up if there are a lot of kids from a non English speaking home. It's even worse now that class sizes are increasing and less teaching support. I think time spent on preparing for religious studies is a waste, but less of a disruption.

I genuinely don't think that this would be a big problem.

What about Irish schools?
The majority of children are taught in a language that is not spoken at home and most of the children don't have any irish before they start, but the kids are well able to adapt and with full immersion, they will learn really fast.

Sarky

When I hear 'for the sake of an easier life' I can never see it being about the life of the child.

Cienciano

Sarky wrote: »

When I hear 'for the sake of an easier life' I can never see it being about the life of the child.

I was raised as a catholic (like a lot on here). Not sure about you, but for me it wasn't exactly a burden making my life more difficult.

lazygal

Cienciano wrote: »

I was raised as a catholic (like a lot on here). Not sure about you, but for me it wasn't exactly a burden making my life more difficult.

I find it makes life more difficult being counted as a member of a club I despise. Why sign a baby up for lifetime membership of anything? Life's already easier for us and our children because we don't worry about religion.

Bannasidhe

Cienciano wrote: »

I was raised as a catholic (like a lot on here). Not sure about you, but for me it wasn't exactly a burden making my life more difficult.

As an Irish female of the homosexual persuasion I can absolutely say Catholicism makes my life a hell of a lot more difficult that it needs to be.

It gives far too many people a licence to judge and condemn me for not conforming to what their religion says is the ideal. Many of these people create the laws under which I have to live. Other's broadcast statements across all media outlets about my (lack of) fitness to be a parent,the need to control my reproductive capabilities and how I do not deserve equality under the law to my heterosexual siblings.

Bannasidhe

A thought just occurred to me as I looked at the poll results as they currently stand - 30 said yes they had their children Christened, 39 said no.

Now, I seem to remember people in this forum getting very worked indeed up about the number of non-practicing Catholics ticking the 'RCC' box on the census/ Mammy's ticking the box for their atheist children.

Weellll, that does beg the question what is the difference between ticking that box as a non practicing Catholic and baptising one's children into that religion/Mammy (or Daddy) insisting on their child joining that religion?

eyescreamcone

We are presently organising a "welcome to the world" party for our little fella.
No naming ceremony - he's already got a name (and a birth cert).
Just a party with the family.

I'm sure we'll enjoy ourselves just as much as anyone who organises a ceremony for their child.

Each to their own, but I'm 100% with Bannasidhe on this one - there is no way any priest is coming near him, ever.

Banbh

There's an awful lot of a-la-carte atheists around here.

The common line seems to be about conforming - to parents, grandparents, partners, convention - and not wanting the children to be seen as different or the odd one out.

Well they are different. Everybody is. Some have dark skin, some have red hair, some have glasses, some have other disabilities, some have different beliefs.

I think a-la-carte atheists should remind themselves that they owe their limited freedom from religious interference to those who took a stand, who put up with insult, ostracisation and dismissal to roll back the power of the Catholic church in all aspects of social life.

Children reared in hypocricy may grow up to deserve their parents.

sbsquarepants

Bannasidhe wrote: »

To me, the cop-out is having a child participate in something one thinks is meaningless just because other kids do it - how do you explain that to a child?

I assume you brought your kids to see santa when they were young? You didn't believe in him i take it.
From the sounds of things your grandaughter is a very sensible little girl, it's not going to make any difference whether she makes her communion or confirmation or not - once you learn to think for yourself the spell is broken!

Bannasidhe wrote: »

'Well love, I think it's a load of crap myself like but sure do it anyway because everyone else is doing it and look at the pretty dress you get to wear and won't you get loads of money....!'

That sounds like a fairly accurate explanation to me!
The only reason my missus wants to get our daughter christened is so she won't feel left out when the rest of her class is making their communion. Now personally, i think that is a ridiculous reason - but lets face it, there is precious little reasoning with a hormonal woman:) - so christening it is. I see it as pointless, but it's an hour of pointless, followed by beer and cake as opposed to the next 5 years of bellyaching, so christen away, sign her up as a buddhist too while your at it.
As far as im concerned it's no different to signing her up to be a jedi. Why would i bother fighting over something so meaningless?

sbsquarepants

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Weellll, that does beg the question what is the difference between ticking that box as a non practicing Catholic and baptising one's children into that religion/Mammy (or Daddy) insisting on their child joining that religion?

Is that not obvious?
The difference is usually the other parent, or other people at least. Life is all about compromising and picking battles - there is no more annoying twat than the one who simply must take a principled stand on every single issue.
If it's a big thing, i'll fight over it - if it's a pissingly small triviality, just do whatever, i'm fine with that.

Banbh

The only reason my missus wants to get our daughter christened is so she won't feel left out when the rest of her class is making their communion. Now personally, i think that is a ridiculous reason - but lets face it, there is precious little reasoning with a hormonal woman - so christening it is.

Spinelessness is not a nice trait in anyone especially in men who hide behind women.

sbsquarepants

lazygal wrote: »

I find it makes life more difficult being counted as a member of a club I despise. Why sign a baby up for lifetime membership of anything? Life's already easier for us and our children because we don't worry about religion.

If i told you i consider you a member of the one direction fan club, would it really stress you much? I don't particularly care if the catholics claim me - i'm still not one.

Banbh wrote: »

Spinelessness is not a nice trait in anyone especially in men who hide behind women.

One the one hand i find that quite offensive, but then i snap back to reality and remember that i really don't care what your opinion of me is. I make my decisions to suit me and mine, not internet strangers.

But that being said i do think a couple of ceremony dodgers on here may well have a slightly inflated sense of their own heroic bravery in the face of religious oppression.

Bannasidhe

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I assume you brought your kids to see santa when they were young? You didn't believe in him i take it.
From the sounds of things your grandaughter is a very sensible little girl, it's not going to make any difference whether she makes her communion or confirmation or not - once you learn to think for yourself the spell is broken!

I also let him go to Eid/Diwali celebrations, Bris and Bar Mitvah's, Harvest Festivals and Wiccan solstice ceremonies without ever feeling the need to have him 'made' Muslim/Hindu/Jewish/Anglican/A Witch.
Funnily enough - the person who brought him to see Santa was Jewish, after the Santa visit they would 'do' Hanukkah where sonofmine being the youngest had a special roll to play and wore a yarmulke and recited the appropriate prayer in Hebrew as he lit the light on the menorah. At no point did anyone think he was Jewish nor was it ever suggested he had to be Jewish.

That sounds like a fairly accurate explanation to me!
The only reason my missus wants to get our daughter christened is so she won't feel left out when the rest of her class is making their communion. Now personally, i think that is a ridiculous reason - but lets face it, there is precious little reasoning with a hormonal woman:) - so christening it is. I see it as pointless, but it's an hour of pointless, followed by beer and cake as opposed to the next 5 years of bellyaching, so christen away, sign her up as a buddhist too while your at it.
As far as im concerned it's no different to signing her up to be a jedi. Why would i bother fighting over something so meaningless?

I am a menopausal woman so tread carefully :P

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Is that not obvious?
The difference is usually the other parent, or other people at least. Life is all about compromising and picking battles - there is no more annoying twat than the one who simply must take a principled stand on every single issue.
If it's a big thing, i'll fight over it - if it's a pissingly small triviality, just do whatever, i'm fine with that.

I think we have reached the crux of our differences. I would never look at the RCC and say 'what harm.'

To me, it is a very big thing. I hate that organisation and everything they stand for and have spent most of my working life studying exactly the harm it has done over the centuries.

If I am not going to take a principled stand against this vile religion that calls me as a threat to humanity if I am allowed to marry my OH, that tells me my life is equal to that of a clump of cells and seeks to deny me control over my own body and is of the opinion that I should live my live as a celibate then who the hell do I take a principled stand against?

I may as well vote FF in the next GE while I find me a non-trivial issue to take a stand upon.

sbsquarepants

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I also let him go to Eid/Diwali celebrations, Bris and Bar Mitvah's, Harvest Festivals and Wiccan solstice ceremonies without ever feeling the need to have him 'made' Muslim/Hindu/Jewish/Anglican/A Witch. .

You've a more diverse group of friends than me. A couple of proddies and a gay witch is all i've got! The witch turns up every now and then and annoints us with some spell or other - protects from bla bla bla, the proddies are a bit more normal!

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am a menopausal woman so tread carefully :P.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If I am not going to take a principled stand against this vile religion that calls me as a threat to humanity if I am allowed to marry my OH, that tells me my life is equal to that of a clump of cells and seeks to deny me control over my own body and is of the opinion that I should live my live as a celibate then who the hell do I take a principled stand against?.

I absolutely take your point, they are a vile organisation - but despite 90% on a census form - do you not think their power is all but gone, here in this country anyway. Things like attitudes to gay marriage and adoption and so on are slow to change, it's a generational thing - for the next generation coming up it won't even be an issue i don't think. For example i know a good few people i'd consider homophobic to a certain extent, but i think they are all older than me, anyone my age not so much, younger people certainly not. That's my experience anyway.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I may as well vote FF in the next GE while I find me a non-trivial issue to take a stand upon.

That's obviously just your hormones. Sit down, have a nice cup of tea and you'll soon forget about all that nonsense:D

eyescreamcone

When you sign up your innocent child to be baptised, to me, you agree with their policies and fairytales:

Remember the RCC is
-anti-gay
-anti-women
-anti-health (no condoms allowed)
-anti-divorce
-anti-abortion

Do you and do you want your child to support their policies on the above issues?

Also, they have raped many children in their care and covered up their crimes wholesale.
Then when they were caught out, on countless occassions, and told to cough up compensation money they have ducked and dived to dodge making ANY payments.

The organisation disgusts me.

Then there are the fairytales they have fabricated to increase membership and thus ensure future income:
If you don't get baptised into the church you will die with the original sin you were born with.
(Not to mention the rest of the made up ridiclous fairytales.)

This scaremongering might have worked back in the day, but in fairness, who actually believes that newborn babies are born as sinners???
I certainly don't.

Anyone who baptises their children, for whatever reason, is effectively supporting the RCC, their policies and their beliefs.

My mother always warned me not to fall in with a bad crowd - the RCC are as bad as it gets and they are one crowd I won't be letting near any of my children.


(just waiting for - shur they're not all bad, and the where's the harm in it gang!)

Bannasidhe

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You've a more diverse group of friends than me. A couple of proddies and a gay witch is all i've got! The witch turns up every now and then and annoints us with some spell or other - protects from bla bla bla, the proddies are a bit more normal!

I too have a gay witch friend (wonder if it is the same one!) who attempts to 'smudge' me...I have a water pistol ready for such occasions.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

:cool:

I absolutely take your point, they are a vile organisation - but despite 90% on a census form - do you not think their power is all but gone, here in this country anyway. Things like attitudes to gay marriage and adoption and so on are slow to change, it's a generational thing - for the next generation coming up it won't even be an issue i don't think. For example i know a good few people i'd consider homophobic to a certain extent, but i think they are all older than me, anyone my age not so much, younger people certainly not. That's my experience anyway.

Declining but not gone yet sadly - and I have seen how they managed to bounce back from decline too many times over the centuries to take my eye off the ball now.
Just look at some of the statements that issued from members of our government over the Protection of Life Bill and it is obvious they still have their claws in people who hold a great deal of power in our society.

Plus - a dying animal fighting for survival is always dangerous.

That's obviously just your hormones. Sit down, have a nice cup of tea and you'll soon forget about all that nonsense:D

I don't actually think I physically could vote for them - if ever a case of spontaneous human combustion would happen it would be me in a polling booth if my wee pencil was ever poised to make an X next to a FF candidate.

sbsquarepants

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I too have a gay witch friend (wonder if it is the same one!) who attempts to 'smudge' me...I have a water pistol ready for such occasions.

Is your gay witch Italian?
Also, it would need to be holy water in the pistol. Tap water would just make a witch angry!

Cienciano

lazygal wrote: »

I find it makes life more difficult being counted as a member of a club I despise. Why sign a baby up for lifetime membership of anything? Life's already easier for us and our children because we don't worry about religion.

I'm a member of that club you despise and as I said, my life wasn't made any more difficult.

Banbh wrote: »

There's an awful lot of a-la-carte atheists around here.

The common line seems to be about conforming - to parents, grandparents, partners, convention - and not wanting the children to be seen as different or the odd one out.

Well they are different. Everybody is. Some have dark skin, some have red hair, some have glasses, some have other disabilities, some have different beliefs.

I think a-la-carte atheists should remind themselves that they owe their limited freedom from religious interference to those who took a stand, who put up with insult, ostracisation and dismissal to roll back the power of the Catholic church in all aspects of social life.

Children reared in hypocricy may grow up to deserve their parents.

It's already been said, if you're married it's about compromises. To some people (well, me) being baptised isn't a big deal. I'd rather not do it, but to me it's just water sprinkled on the babys head.
"a-la-carte atheists" - Some people just don't take it as serious as you.

recedite

Look on the bright side of it, Bannasidhe.
If there are a large number of kids out there who are officially listed as RC, or whatever religion happens to be ticked, but they are actually living under the "malign" :pac: influence of one atheist parent at home, then that could lead to a collapse in church attendance as the kids grow up and start forming their own opinions. Or maybe we are already seeing that?

I think the real problem was something that often happened in the past, whereby one or both parents didn't believe, but pretended that they did in front of the kids. They all went along to mass every Sunday like any other "respectable" family. In that situation the kids were duped into believing the whole shebang, hook line and sinker.

Bannasidhe

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Is your gay witch Italian?
Also, it would need to be holy water in the pistol. Tap water would just make a witch angry!

Nope. There must be two...
(now that I think of it I know quite a few...:eek:)

Tap water all the way - with extra fluoride for added anti-witchy smudge power.

I may be getting on in years but I can still sprint 100 m faster than the average witch.

Bannasidhe

Cienciano wrote: »

I'm a member of that club you despise and as I said, my life wasn't made any more difficult.

But what about the people whose lives it has made more difficult?

recedite wrote: »

Look on the bright side of it, Bannasidhe.
If there are a large number of kids out there who are officially listed as RC, or whatever religion happens to be ticked, but they are actually living under the "malign" :pac: influence of one atheist parent at home, then that could lead to a collapse in church attendance as the kids grow up and start forming their own opinions. Or maybe we are already seeing that?

I think the real problem was something that often happened in the past, whereby one or both parents didn't believe, but pretended that they did in front of the kids. They all went along to mass every Sunday like any other "respectable" family. In that situation the kids were duped into believing the whole shebang, hook line and sinker.

Bannasidhe is not in a look on the bright side mood today as Bannasidhe has a hint of a hangover from an early birthday celebration where the god Bacchus was worshiped with Bannasidhe as the head celebrant.

Sarky

Cienciano wrote: »

I was raised as a catholic (like a lot on here). Not sure about you, but for me it wasn't exactly a burden making my life more difficult.

Stroke of luck there. You've never felt guilty about something you did because some guy with a fancy collar said it was a sin, or had to come to terms with all the lies and punishments you were dealt in school based on catholic ethos? Giving up your Sunday for no good reason? Had an innumerable number of things assumed about you because, well, that's the way it always was and sure what would the priest think?

You're a very lucky chap indeed, then. But I strongly suspect you're in the minority.

sbsquarepants

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Nope. There must be two...
(now that I think of it I know quite a few...:eek:)

How many god damn gay witches are there in this town!
(not a phrase you hear said very often)

Bannasidhe

sbsquarepants wrote: »

How many god damn gay witches are there in this town!
(not a phrase you hear said very often)

Are we including bisexuals?

Sarky

It would be rude not to include bisexuals.

Bannasidhe

sbsquarepants wrote: »

How many god damn gay witches are there in this town!
(not a phrase you hear said very often)

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Are we including bisexuals?

Sarky wrote: »

It would be rude not to include bisexuals.

In that case the answer is Lashings of 'em.

sbsquarepants

Sarky wrote: »

Stroke of luck there. You've never felt guilty about something you did because some guy with a fancy collar said it was a sin, or had to come to terms with all the lies and punishments you were dealt in school based on catholic ethos? Giving up your Sunday for no good reason? Had an innumerable number of things assumed about you because, well, that's the way it always was and sure what would the priest think?

You're a very lucky chap indeed, then. But I strongly suspect you're in the minority.

Same here. I've been baptised, communion and confirmed - never impacted on me negatively at all, most likely because i wasn't brought up in a religious family. I only remember maybe 3 or 4 occasions going to mass as a child, my father never went, my mother once in a blue moon there was never really any religion in the house, no holy pictures or crosses or any of that stuff. That's what rubs off on kids, not that they were once splashed with water or given a wafer to eat.
I think some people put too much credence to symbolic rituals - for example my missus' mother was quite concerned when i told her our friendly gay witch had performed some mumbo jumbo or other on the baby involving feathers and some potion he'd brewed up. It's just a baptism by another name if you ask me, didn't harm the baby so what's the big deal. Same with the christening thing imo, it does nothing so why stress it?

sbsquarepants

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Are we including bisexuals?

Well it's not very christian to exclude, i think - shít i'm confused now!

Bannasidhe

Have we accidentally happened upon an appropriate distinction between 'atheist' and the much mentioned but never clearly defined 'militant atheist'?

Atheist say : Meaningless mumbo-jumbo is meaningless.
Militant Atheist say : Over.My.Dead.Body!

Bannasidhe

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Well it's not very christian to exclude, i think - shít i'm confused now!

It's very Christian to exclude so fret not.

PopePalpatine

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Then there are the fairytales they have fabricated to increase membership and thus ensure future income:
If you don't get baptised into the church you will die with the original sin you were born with.
(Not to mention the rest of the made up ridiclous fairytales.)

I never heard about that! :eek:

Original sin has to be the most retarded (that's the most accurate word I can think of) religious concept. It's what allows the likes of Kent Hovind to say with a straight face that drowning newborn babies in Noah's flood was OK.

Cienciano

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But what about the people whose lives it has made more difficult?

You mean homosexuals? I'm not sure what age people are told that's wrong. We definitely weren't told in school. I think kids take their morals from their parents rather than what they hear in a church/religion class.

Sarky wrote: »

Stroke of luck there. You've never felt guilty about something you did because some guy with a fancy collar said it was a sin, or had to come to terms with all the lies and punishments you were dealt in school based on catholic ethos? Giving up your Sunday for no good reason? Had an innumerable number of things assumed about you because, well, that's the way it always was and sure what would the priest think?

You're a very lucky chap indeed, then. But I strongly suspect you're in the minority.

No, never. And I went to a christian brothers school. I can honestly say not one person in my class in secondary school took religion class seriously. And we had strict religion teachers that wouldn't think twice of giving you a thump.

Bannasidhe

Cienciano wrote: »

You mean homosexuals? I'm not sure what age people are told that's wrong. We definitely weren't told in school. I think kids take their morals from their parents rather than what they hear in a church/religion class.

Not just homosexuals - there are also those who survived - and those who didn't - the Laundries and the Industrial Schools. Those non-Catholics who had to swear to have their children raised as Catholic before they could marry a Catholic. Those who were denied a publicly funded job due to not being a Catholic.

And before you want to counter with that was 'before', what about those teachers and medical staff who work in State funded 'Catholic' schools and hospitals who could - legally - lose their jobs for not conforming to a Catholic ethos - think about that.

Today in August 2013 in Ireland a teacher, nurse, doctor, physio, cleaner, porter, secretary etc etc can legally be dismissed from their job because they are not conforming to a Catholic ethos by using contraception, having sex outside marriage, being divorced, being a member of a different religion or no religion, being Pro-Choice, being pro- Same sex marriage and of course, there is being a homosexual.

Now, let's consider women who want/need an abortion....

Rev Hellfire

I doubt the majority of people who go for a baptism these days think of the church (and the ceremony) as nothing more than a nice venue and chance for a day out.

Many of those kids will never see the inside of a church until the next wedding/first communion/confirmation/funeral occurs.

You're battling indifference, as is the church I guess.

Bannasidhe

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I doubt the majority of people who go for a baptism these days think of the church (and the ceremony) as nothing more than a nice venue and chance for a day out.

Many of those kids will never see the inside of a church until the next wedding/first communion/confirmation/funeral occurs.

You're battling indifference, as is the church I guess.

But why sign your kids up to something you are indifferent to?

To me that is akin to my buying a life-time season ticket to Old Trafford for newborn sonofmine even though I have zero interest in soccer but there seems to be an awful lot of Man U fans in Ireland so I justify it by saying I wouldn't want sonofmine to feel left out like.

It would have been a waste of money as he has less than zero interest in soccer

Rev Hellfire

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But why sign your kids up to something you are indifferent to?

To me that is akin to my buying a life-time season ticket to Old Trafford for newborn sonofmine even though I have zero interest in soccer but there seems to be an awful lot of Man U fans in Ireland so I justify it by saying I wouldn't want sonofmine to feel left out like.

It would have been a waste of money as he has less than zero interest in soccer

Because while you might be indifferent to the church, people are happy to avail of the services it offers (nice buildings with fancy rituals) plus the cultural rites of passage.

When you're taking from the à la carte menu you get the bits you want and discard the rest. That's how people treat it these days.

So to take your life-time season ticket, you pick it up at little or no cost and get to go to the cup finals and ignore the rest.

I agree there's a herd mentality at play, but again people don't care unless its disadvantaging them.

Bannasidhe

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Because while you might be indifferent to the church, people are happy to avail of the services it offers (nice buildings with fancy rituals) plus the cultural rites of passage.

When you're taking from the à la carte menu you get the bits you want and discard the rest. That's how people treat it these days.

So to take your life-time season ticket, you pick it up at little or no cost and get to go to the cup finals and ignore the rest.

I agree there's a herd mentality at play, but again people don't care unless its disadvantaging them.

I think some of the problem is that although it may not be disadvantaging them personally they don't care that this is not the case for everyone.

Seriously though, what is the issue about letting people decide to sign up for whatever they want when they are old enough to make an informed decision?

Sonofmine was quite free to become a Catholic when he became old enough to understand what that is supposed to mean...he could even have been a Man U fan if he wanted *gag*.

Why are atheist's eating off the Catholic á la Carte menu anyway?

Why not eat off the á la carte Buddhist/Hindu/Jewish/Muslim/Wiccan/Mormon/Anglican etc etc menu.
At least with the Hindu menu one can have a decent curry and the Muslim menu has the most amazing lamb dishes. I can understand reluctance to eat Kosher ( Gefilte fish = worst thing I ever tasted)....

It becomes a bit....bizarre...when some of those same atheists tucking in complained about other people who are also eating off the Catholic á la carte menu ticking the RCC box on the Census.

gaynorvader

Bannasidhe wrote: »

{...}

Why are atheist's eating off the Catholic á la Carte menu anyway?

Why not eat off the á la carte Buddhist/Hindu/Jewish/Muslim/Wiccan/Mormon/Anglican etc etc menu.
At least with the Hindu menu one can have a decent curry and the Muslim menu has the most amazing lamb dishes. I can understand reluctance to eat Kosher ( Gefilte fish = worst thing I ever tasted)....

{...}

Geography is basically to blame. If they lived in the US, they might be eating off of the Mormon menu, India would probably lead to a Hinu menu, etc. The one, true religion seems to largely be determined by geography.

Tim Robbins

Interestingly, I think if you ran a similar poll in the Christianity forum you'd find they all baptise their or bring them up in their own faith.

We are pussies.

Rev Hellfire

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I think some of the problem is that although it may not be disadvantaging them personally they don't care that this is not the case for everyone.

Don't disagree.

Seriously though, what is the issue about letting people decide to sign up for whatever they want when they are old enough to make an informed decision?

They don't care/believe they're doing anything of consequence on that regard. Signing up *wink* *wink*

Census I agree with u.

mohawk

Haven't baptised my 4 year old.
I had intially considered it when he was born but then the family pressure started and I decided to make a stand otherwise I would be facing the same battle at communion time. Personally I was willing to make my communion because I heard about the money!! When it came to confirmation time I decided against it but was told in no uncertain terms that I was making it.

It is still a sore point for the extended family. They are still going on about it. My family even offered to pay for it as they thought it was a question of money. My son's dad often suggests we baptise him vs he gets it from his family and I tell him go ahead and organise it (he is very lazy and I know he won't do it).

I have heard it all from my family from he will be picked on in school, to a right little gem "what will you do if he dies?"

School wise we moved to this area too late to have a realistic chance of getting him into an ET. I went to a catholic school myself and I still made up my own mind so I reckon my son will be able to make his own mind up too.

I really feel that the only way to change this cultural catholic crap is for athiests to stop going along with the status quo. I have come across couples where both claim to be atheists but have decided to baptise!!

swampgas

I'm not trying to start a fight here - honestly! But I'm trying to figure out what bugs me so much about atheists going along with religious rituals.

I think claiming that Christening means nothing to an atheist, and is just splashing some water on the babies' head, is wrong.

If you are atheist parents, and you go for a church baptism, think about what happens. You make an arrangement for a formal ritual, at a church, and you arrange for a priest to officiate. You round up your family and friends, you all dress up a bit, and go to the church on the day. Then the parents, a couple, get up and make a solemn vow, in front of everyone, to bring up the child in the Roman Catholic Church. Everybody present is there to bear witness to this declaration by the couple, which as it happens is a great big pack of lies.

I would ask this: were your wedding vows, made in a similar way, just as false, just as meaningless?

To me, the core of any wedding, the real heart of it, is two people making their solemn vows to each other in front of their family and friends. It has significance. It carries weight. It's important, I think, to show some respect for such vows made this way.

Getting up in front of everyone and vowing to bring up a child as a Catholic when you have no intention of doing so is, I suggest, making a mockery of the ritual, and also, I feel, shows a certain lack of integrity.

I realise that many people would disagree with this, and I think it goes deeper than just baptisms and weddings. I'm still trying to figure it out.

Bannasidhe

swampgas wrote: »

I'm not trying to start a fight here - honestly! But I'm trying to figure out what bugs me so much about atheists going along with religious rituals.

I think claiming that Christening means nothing to an atheist, and is just splashing some water on the babies' head, is wrong.

If you are atheist parents, and you go for a church baptism, think about what happens. You make an arrangement for a formal ritual, at a church, and you arrange for a priest to officiate. You round up your family and friends, you all dress up a bit, and go to the church on the day. Then the parents, a couple, get up and make a solemn vow, in front of everyone, to bring up the child in the Roman Catholic Church. Everybody present is there to bear witness to this declaration by the couple, which as it happens is a great big pack of lies.

I would ask this: were your wedding vows, made in a similar way, just as false, just as meaningless?

To me, the core of any wedding, the real heart of it, is two people making their solemn vows to each other in front of their family and friends. It has significance. It carries weight. It's important, I think, to show some respect for such vows made this way.

Getting up in front of everyone and vowing to bring up a child as a Catholic when you have no intention of doing so is, I suggest, making a mockery of the ritual, and also, I feel, shows a certain lack of integrity.

I realise that many people would disagree with this, and I think it goes deeper than just baptisms and weddings. I'm still trying to figure it out.

Yeah, I just don't get it either. We each have to make our own choices and it is certainly not my place to judge anyone else but I must admit - atheists making vows to participate in a religion and going along with all of that 'in the sight of God' guff makes me twitch.

If it is so meaningless - why bother?

If it is to aid children getting a place in a school - isn't that helping to feed the cycle whereby a child needs to be baptised to get into a State funded school. How can we break that cycle if we, as atheists, enable it's continuance?


Like you - I take vows very seriously. The only vow I would be willing to make regarding the RCC is to speak of it as I find...

Any genuinely puggalised why people allow family/social pressure to dictate their choices and cause them to agree to do something which is so at odds with their personal beliefs...it really just seems to me to be saying that the beliefs of others trump ones own.

My parents are Catholics so they had their children baptised - that was what their beliefs said they should do and that's grand.
I am not a Catholic so I did not have my son baptised...why would I? I don't believe in it... should I have because my parent do???



Sure in that case I may as well have gone along with being heterosexual too - it would have made family happy and I would have had an 'easier' life but I don't think anyone here would suggest I should have done that...but when you look at it - what is the difference?

Caonima

My baby is due in just over a month; no way is he being baptised.

lazygal

I don't get adults giving into the wishes of other adults either when they don't believe. I know every couple has to compromise, but for me there's no 'compromise' when it comes to things like baptisms, you either baptise or you don't. I'm so glad me and my husband were in firm agreement on this before we had children because I really don't know how I'd have reacted if he'd said his parents were really upset about not having a baptism and he wanted to make them happy and sure it doesn't mean anything and we'll find it easier to get a place in school. When do you stop being a people pleaser? My parents made their choices for their family when we were younger, and I don't understand why they'd expect to have a say in the decisions we make for our family.

What would the fallout be I wonder if people had the courage of their convictions and didn't allow the hissy fits of other adults to dictate the religious ceremonies their children partake in? Would it really be long term hassle or a nine day wonder that could be ignored until the offending party got over themselves?