New home sale in Belmont, Stepaside, Dublin 18

Lillian123

Just a quick update:

We have been advised by our solicitor not to proceed with the purchase of the house by signing contracts until such time as a clear title is available on the site. This is because Aiken properties currently do not own the land and they are the entity trying to sell the house. There is also mortgages registered in favour of AIB an Bank of Scotland against the land. And the contract also mentions SDR loans.

It is not looking good anyway think there is way too much stacked against this estate.

Jared20130204

hi Lillian,

The same advice has been given to us , so just depends now in whether they wait until land registry pushes the registration through....

Aard

Bells 1978 wrote: »

Does that mean if you extend your house at the rear u will need planning permission as you will have used the exemption !

That's exactly what it means. You can extend up to 40sqm in total beyond the planning permission, as long as you leave a back garden of at least 25sqm. Bear in mind as well that the County Council will often make attach a condition for large housing estates that ANY extensions or material modifications to what was originally permitted will require a new planning application. Please make sure that there is not such a condition if you plan on buying one of those houses with an "exempted" extension at rear, otherwise you will have to apply and pay for retention.

I'm actually a little gobsmacked that they would try and pull a fast one like this.

camo

Baileys4 wrote: »

Hi Lillian123,
On some of the other posters queries, I wouldn't recommend Sky Conway as you end up paying a monthly fee on top of the monthly bills. We went direct to UPC. We had electricity, gas etc when we moved in and just had to contact the providers with metre numbers, MRPN's etc to put in our name.

Hi

Were you actually able to get UPC in? UPC told me they don't have cable into the estate yet.

Lillian123

I don't understand how are people able to proceed with buying these houses, when the developers currently don't own the land and there is outstanding mortgages. We have been told by our solicitors in no uncertain terms strongly advising us not to sign the contracts. What sort of responses did the builders solicitors give to these issues?

GavMan

Lillian123 wrote: »

I don't understand how are people able to proceed with buying these houses, when the developers currently don't own the land and there is outstanding mortgages. We have been told by our solicitors in no uncertain terms strongly advising us not to sign the contracts. What sort of responses did the builders solicitors give to these issues?

Haven't people already posted that they did not sign until the title was sorted for them? I would imagine that is how they proceeded.

I suggest either pulling out or getting your solicitor to work through the issue with the developers solicitor until they are satisfied

The Bishop Basher

GavMan wrote: »

Haven't people already posted that they did not sign until the title was sorted for them? I would imagine that is how they proceeded.

That's kinda obvious though isn't it ? And it doesn't come even remotely close to answering the actual question being posed.

If the developers don't own the land and if there are outstanding loans, what did the developers solicitors do or say to satisfy the purchasers solicitors that it was safe to proceed with the contracts ? It's a reasonable question, particularly for those waiting to sign and being delayed due to this issue.

GavMan wrote: »

I suggest either pulling out or getting your solicitor to work through the issue with the developers solicitor until they are satisfied

Surely if you've read the thread you already know that Lillian 123 is currently pursuing both these avenues

It's interesting the level of defensiveness here and it leaves me wondering why.

GavMan

Swanner wrote: »

That's kinda obvious though isn't it ? And it doesn't come even remotely close to answering the actual question being posed.

If the developers don't own the land and if there are outstanding loans, what did the developers solicitors do or say to satisfy the purchasers solicitors that it was safe to proceed with the contracts ? It's a reasonable question, particularly for those waiting to sign and being delayed due to this issue.



Surely if you've read the thread you already know that Lillian 123 is currently pursuing both these avenues

It's interesting the level of defensiveness here and it leaves me wondering why.

The simple answer is because the poster has essentially asked the same question, multiple times and is non the wiser.

A satisfactory answer probably will not be gleamed from an internet forum. Thus my original advice of either working with your solicitor to find an acceptable solution/answer or pull out completely is valid here.

I've no vested interest in the development nor am I a potential buyer in the development (out of my price range)

Lillian123

Gavman, as you have not commented on this forum previously and have no vested interests in the site, I dont think your comments are that helpful.

I have not asked the same questions "multiple times", it may have been discussed. I know I am not going to "find the answer" from the thread but at least I can understand how people proceeded whilst we have been told we can't. Anyway other posters have kindly PM'd me details of how they were able to proceed, so that was useful for me and our situation.

If you have read through the thread, you would know that people have faced similar issues and this forum is used to discuss what is happening with the development.

Dregolan

Hey guys,

Were going up for the launch next week, no details on the time yet but can anyone elaborate on how things went down for the launch of previous phase's? Was there much of que? What time did the agent turn up on site?

trveller72

Dregolan wrote: »

Hey guys,

Were going up for the launch next week, no details on the time yet but can anyone elaborate on how things went down for the launch of previous phase's? Was there much of que? What time did the agent turn up on site?

Be there early, you my catch some of the houses from phase 1, 2, 3.;)

Lillian123

I rang DLR planning department today an they said a decision has been made: they have granted provisional permission for the extensions to the houses. There is a four week period in which people can object an following this if there is no issue, full planning permission will be granted. At least it's a bit of good news!

Baileys4

Dregolan wrote: »

Hey guys,

Were going up for the launch next week, no details on the time yet but can anyone elaborate on how things went down for the launch of previous phase's? Was there much of que? What time did the agent turn up on site?

Hi Dregolan,

At the launch of phase one the official time was 1pm from what I recall and a few people started queuing from 11am. The agents arrived around 11.30-12 to set up etc.

Dregolan

Hey thanks for the info guys, really helpful!

Kaizersoze81

Was up there looking around today. I found the streets are very narrow in the estate can see issues with parking etc once everyone moves in.

cmore123

I was told that my solicitor would have the contract about a week ago. No sign of it yet. Could it be they are not sending them out until the land ownership issue has been resolved?

cmore123

Oh yes, re parking, we've two cars. How does that work? We can't be the only ones.

Aard

cmore123 wrote: »

Oh yes, re parking, we've two cars. How does that work? We can't be the only ones.

Surely there's two spaces per house? Is there any on-street parking?

Kaizersoze81

Aard wrote: »

Surely there's two spaces per house? Is there any on-street parking?

to me it looks like the streets are too narrow around the estate to allow for parking on both sides of it.

Shedzafew

There is off street parking for the majority of houses. In phase one the min is 2 spaces per house with a few communal spaces, not sure about plans for future phases.

Bells 1978

I think that there are 2 spaces per house - yes its narrow up there but unfortunately they don't build estates like they used to! Overall, I think that it is a qaint development.

I cannot see how the developers could have gotten planning permission for land if they did not own it - it is my understanding that the owner of the land is the only person that can apply for planning permission for that land or a person other than the owner can apply with the consent of the existing owner? Is it not the case that the previous owner longer exists?

It would seem totally and utterly bizarre that the developers (if you believe that they don't own the land) could apply for and be granted planning permission for the development, commence building it, get sherry fitz to sell, have people buy and move into them and not own the land?

If this is the case, then Shatter made a huge mistake closing Stepaside Garda Station - the place is now lawless - delighted to be
moving in!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wallander

It seems bizarre to us too Bells...

We are facing some pressure now to sign our contract after indicating we want to wait for the land registration to be completed.

The developers' intransigence on this point surprises me a little. On the one hand we are hearing that the registration is at the last stage and should be completed no problem pretty soon and on the other hand they are telling us there is no way they are prepared to wait for this before we sign and no way either they could offer a clause that says the land registration must be done done before completion...

Bells 1978

There are delays in the land registry at the moment - but I think that it can be resolved by way of solicitors undertakings - which I believe is standard when there are delays with dealings being registered in the land registry.
If there was a serious problem I'd say no one would be in phase 1 - all the solicitors seems on the ball and aware of the issues - I'm trusting mine to deal with accordingly & protect our interests!!

NinjaTruncs

How does a solicitors undertaking resolve that the land registry has has someone (person or company) down as the owner of the land an what protection does it give to the buyer?

Lets say the developers end up being unable to get the land in their name and the bank who is down as the owner asks you (the management company) to buy it from them or pay ground rent, what will the undertaking do to resolve this?

Edit: And in reference to the parking I can see there being serious issues in the future, the roads in phase one are very tight, not sure what they are like in the other phases but I would expect them to be the same. I doubt there is room for a car to park on the side of the road and left another pass, if will be fine while there are only two cars per household but I would expect there will end up being houses that have 3 or even 4 cars and I have no idea where these will go based on seeing phase one.

Lillian123

I rang the land registry there with the folio number <SNIP> for the Belmont site, to see what the situation with the land was. She said that there is numerous outstanding charges and queries on the site, some have been sent back to NAMA and some to the developer.

She said it could take anywhere between 2 weeks and 2 years for something like this to be sorted, as there is some sort of dispute over ownership with NAMA which is delaying it. It is not simply a matter of waiting for an administrative issue to be sorted, there is underlying problems with ownership with the previous owner and NAMA.

Obviously she told me to take the legal advice from my solicitor, which is not to proceed with signing. But I don't understand how they can be putting pressure on people to sign with this undertaking, which may leave us with no leg to stand on if they don't end up getting the transfer of ownership.

The Bishop Basher

Lillian123 wrote: »

But I don't understand how they can be putting pressure on people to sign with this undertaking, which may leave us with no leg to stand on if they don't end up getting the transfer of ownership.

Sounds like they're putting pressure on people to sign in the full knowledge that a resolution may not come any time soon. They can't afford to have a delay of that nature. They need your cash so they can complete the development.

Lillian123

There is updates and on the dlrcoco planning application regarding the contributions the developer has to make for infrastructure, roads and facilities, community and parks of approx €300k-400k, I wonder does this cover the roads and and pavements in the estate or just the surrounding areas.

Also I have downloaded the folio for the site, but I can't seem to upload a file here on boards. If anyone would like a copy of it for your own info just PM and I will send it on. It shows that there was a substantial number of people during 2004-2007 given some ownership of the land (maybe investors?). It then shows the AIB, and Bank of Scotland mortgages and charges and on 24th of July KAVMC is noted as the owner of the charge registered for present and future advances. KAVMC is the company registered under the current developers. I don't know if this info gives us anymore insight into the problem but does show the history with the site and the ownership issues.

Lillian123

Swanner wrote: »

Sounds like they're putting pressure on people to sign in the full knowledge that a resolution may not come any time soon. They can't afford to have a delay of that nature. They need your cash so they can complete the development.

Yes that is exactly what they are doing, as they need the money to build phase 2 and 3. So looking at the date of 24th of July, it shows that the developers have been trying to get the ownership transferred for 6 and a half months now.

_Kaiser_

It's seems very simple to me guys... it's another example of the cowboy antics of the "good times" with EAs/builders applying pressure to close the sale on one side and over-eager/wanting to believe buyers on the other

The only way this sort of behaviour will change (and for me the most damning post in this whole saga is Lillian's conversation with the land registry and her solicitor above) is for buyers NOT to keep handing over money and signing contracts until ALL the facts add up.

I just hope that the people who have moved in don't end up holding the bag if it all falls apart down the line.

Jared20130204

Hi All,

I just called the Land registry as the dealing is now a mapping query. The guy couldn't discuss with me exactly what the query was but said the developers solicitors had come back with an answer that didn't satisfy his query so they need to come back with more info. in order to get the registration sorted.
It's just a waiting game, but as Kaiser 2000 suggests, this type of "gun to head" , bully behaviour will only stop if We all stand firm and wait until the title deeds are sorted before signing.
For anyone going to the phase 3 launch, be prepared for a fairly long road before you move into the house..... Even if We all walk away from our phase 2 houses and your promised those as a quick move in, you'll find it hard to get a solicitor to sign off on the contract and therefore difficult to draw down a mortgage!

Bells 1978

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

How does a solicitors undertaking resolve that the land registry has has someone (person or company) down as the owner of the land an what protection does it give to the buyer?

Lets say the developers end up being unable to get the land in their name and the bank who is down as the owner asks you (the management company) to buy it from them or pay ground rent, what will the undertaking do to resolve this?

Edit: And in reference to the parking I can see there being serious issues in the future, the roads in phase one are very tight, not sure what they are like in the other phases but I would expect them to be the same. I doubt there is room for a car to park on the side of the road and left another pass, if will be fine while there are only two cars per household but I would expect there will end up being houses that have 3 or even 4 cars and I have no idea where these will go based on seeing phase one.

Hey, I'm sure that all of the issues will be resolved and the banks and solicitors acting won't allow the transactions proceed unless they are happy with everything - ultimately I'm sure the developers will wont everything sorted ASAP so they can sell the properties - I'm going leave it all to my solicitor & will sign if they are if the view the transaction can go ahead.
It will be interesting to see the development next weekend - from the thread it appears there is a launch but it is not mentioned on the sites for the development

Bells 1978

In relation to ground rents and residential developments - I think that the creation of ground rents was prohibited in 1978 but they can apply to commercial developments!

Jolisa94

Got an email from SherryFitz this morning, new launch coming up on the 15th & 16th.

3 beds starting from 350,000 for 101 sqm (from 335,000 last time and the houses were bigger, 107 sqm)

4 beds strating from 440,000 for 131 sqm (from 370,000 last time)

That's quite a jump, especially for the 4 beds.

_Kaiser_

Jolisa94 wrote: »

Got an email from SherryFitz this morning, new launch coming up on the 15th & 16th.

3 beds starting from 350,000 for 101 sqm (from 335,000 last time and the houses were bigger, 107 sqm)

4 beds strating from 440,000 for 131 sqm (from 370,000 last time)

That's quite a jump, especially for the 4 beds.

And the cycle begins again...

Seriously folks.. if we ever expect a properly functioning property market people need to stop buying into this. The prices have risen so much (in spite of them being smaller and the question marks about whether they even have the right to be selling houses on this land) because they know there are queues of people just waiting to "get back on the property ladder"

It HAS to start with the buyer!

NinjaTruncs

To be fair the email states there are "4 Show Homes" I take this to mean they are selling the show homes from the first 2 phases, which may be the reason for the price increases, it's common for 20K-25K to be added to a three bed show house to cover all the stuff they put in, the increase for the 4 beds is a bit much though, but again if there are only 4 houses for sale it could be some of the 4 beds that were close to 400K meaning you're being charged 40K for furnishings, still that's high imo to furnish a 4 bed house.

Jolisa94

Show houses were:

3 beds
Powerscourt (originally priced from 335k)
Laragh (originally priced from 355k)
Don't remember there being another 3 bed show house.

4 beds
Derrybawn (originally priced from 398k)
The show house for the Glencullen design (370k originally) is occupied now and the first version of the Laragh (365k originally) also seems to be occupied, so not sure what the other 4 bed might be, possibly the house that was used as the sales office.

So, if I’m right, on the 3 beds that’s 15K for the contents of the living room and the bedrooms and 42K on the 4 beds (all the tiling was included). Particularly on the 4 beds, that's a lot for furniture and fittings, so it seems to me that there is a price increase in there somewhere.

Bells 1978

Jolisa94 wrote: »

Show houses were:

3 beds
Powerscourt (originally priced from 335k)
Laragh (originally priced from 355k)
Don't remember there being another 3 bed show house.

4 beds
Derrybawn (originally priced from 398k)
The show house for the Glencullen design (370k originally) is occupied now and the first version of the Laragh (365k originally) also seems to be occupied, so not sure what the other 4 bed might be, possibly the house that was used as the sales office.

So, if I’m right, on the 3 beds that’s 15K for the contents of the living room and the bedrooms and 42K on the 4 beds (all the tiling was included). Particularly on the 4 beds, that's a lot for furniture and fittings, so it seems to me that there is a price increase in there somewhere.

- it could be the four bed detached on the site that are starting at that price?

cmore123

Latest for my solicitor - contract has arrived with them, but she says she has written to them for clarification "on a number of issues" and will advise me once the vendor's solicitor replies.

It really doesn't sound promising, and I too would urge others not to sign until all is sorted. I won't. If it doesn't resolve satisfactorily, I'm out - I'll be off to balbriggan or somewhere!

Wallander

We're getting some real pressure now to sign on our phase 3 house and in a bit of a dilemma. Solicitor says they are 99% satisfied that the registration will be sorted shortly as it's at the mapping stage. We are wondering whether it's worth continuing to refuse to sign for what we are told is a 1% risk of something unforeseen coming up at the final registration phase but at the same time uneasy to sign off until we have complete certainty bearing in mind what has been reported on this forum.

Jared20130204

Hi wallander,
In the same boat here.... I was talking to land registry guy today and he says there's an application pre this one that has to be sorted first and I have no idea when that will be sorted but hoping it can be done in days or we are out too...
Try to get your solicitor to see what the query on the registration is....then you would have better idea of risk.

Those going to launch...beware you may get stuck paying solicitors fees and no house at end of it cos these guys will try to force people to sign contracts with numerous issues....

Wallander

Thanks very much Jared, interesting to hear, let's hope it gets sorted soonish. Is there anyone else in the same situation? We're being threatened with getting our deposit returned but it's difficult to know if and when they would carry out this threat. Does anybody know of a deposit being returned for this issue?

Jared20130204

I suspect they are going to see how they get on this weekend with launch.... If they get people to pay over what our houses were sale agreed at ,they may just return deposits and sell at higher prices....all depends on how this weekend goes....
Anyone buying should look at property price register..9 houses sold in belmont already
...also houses still for sale in aikens village.... Check those prices!
I think the developers assume belmont will command higher prices than those houses all around .... Good luck to em!

nakom

Wallander wrote: »

We're getting some real pressure now to sign on our phase 3 house and in a bit of a dilemma. Solicitor says they are 99% satisfied that the registration will be sorted shortly as it's at the mapping stage. We are wondering whether it's worth continuing to refuse to sign for what we are told is a 1% risk of something unforeseen coming up at the final registration phase but at the same time uneasy to sign off until we have complete certainty bearing in mind what has been reported on this forum.

From whom are you getting pressure from? SF or from the builders? I left a deposit for a 2nd phase house and I haven't heard from anyone so far.
Maybe it's because I told my solicitor that until everything is sorted I won't sign.
Probably he's not even bothering me about pressure from them.

Your solicitor is happy about 99%. What about the AIB charge? Is he happy with what they said?

Wallander

Yes as far as I've been told all issues on any past charges or ownership issues have now been resolved and the final mapping phase is more of a formality. The pressure is coming from the developer's solicitors via our solicitor, the launch this weekend was mentioned between them seemingly implying what Jared said.

The main reason why we will wait is that I find it tough to marry this rosy view of a registration process very near its end to their response to our request for complete assurance on the issue, either by a clause that the registration must be done before closure or by allowing us to wait for registration before signing. They refused this and turned this pressure on us.

Shedzafew

I would say that this weekend will play a big part on how they will deal with the issue of existing deposits for houses that contracts are yet to be signed. If there is a large amount of interest for additional houses at the higher prices then why wouldn't the developers give back the existing deposits to people who haven't signed and sell to new buyers at the higher price? Don't get me wrong, I think this would be absolutely and completely wrong of them to do considering people genuinely do want to purchase the houses but not until the land registration issue is resolved. Unfortunately if you look at situation from the developers’ point of view it could make complete sense.

They get fresh purchasers in at a higher price and by the time it comes around to signing contracts the issue may or may not be resolved. If it is resolved then people will sign at the higher price. If not, as in previous phases people still may sign anyway whilst others hang tough until the issue is resolved. They essentially have nothing to lose apart from reputation and lets face it isn't that strong at present and there is no denying that at the moment the upper hand is well and truly with the seller in today's property market.

The above will depend on how much of a rise is seen in the average prices and the demand for the houses this weekend. From speaking with sherry fitz today they have received a large number of calls from people in relation to the development and they will not take booking deposits for any of the houses in the launch until Saturday.

Is anyone aware of the legal position of the people who have paid their booking deposits who are yet to sign? I know in the vast majority of cases the deposit can be returned for no reason but surely in this instance they have some form of case as they are yet to be provided with a clean contract/title.

Jared20130204

Hi all,

Shedzafew saying what we are all thinking I guess.... It's so true. All the power is with the seller. Regarding a case...I don't know but I would suspect it would need to be some sort of class action where a bunch of us get together to recoup legal expenses etc if the above happens after this weekend... Agent kept advising that we listen to our solicitors, whilst demanding we sign contracts....so everyone is caught between a rock and a hard place...can't sign because we ARE listening to our solicitors....it's a very unfair situation for all those that are just doing the right and correct thing.

New Buyer

I have been following this thread for some time now and have been very interested in the issues raised as we also paid a booking deposit back in Oct. After time waiting on the contracts and more time spent querying all the issues that were raised here as well as other things we raised, I am happy to say we signed in the last few weeks. I am not going to go into the ins and outs of how we were confident signing because I honestly dont know enough about it to attempt to explain, and as I understand it its quiet complicated which is why I left that up to our very competent solicitor who went through absolutely everything in detail.There is alot of negativity on the forum and I can absolutely understand that people have concerns, it s huge buy which is why I have been looking into all issues raised the last few months. I just wanted to let people know that there are people signing and we have spoken to others who too have signed. It is everyone's own decision in the end but personally I think it is a great buy and gorgeous location so near the mountains while being accessible to all amenities including the luas. Best of luck to everyone that goes ahead with it.

cmore123

Folks and folkesses..

The AIB issues are not yet sorted, nor are others. On the plus side, none are beyond easy resolution, but on the negative side (and those viewing this weekend, PLEASE research thoroughly for your own sake!) my solicitor raised no less than sixteen issues with the vendor's solicitor just this week. One can only conclude the vendor's solicitor is either a total crook, or an idiot.....

sawdoubters

heres prices

https://www.propertypriceregister.ie/website/npsra/PPR/npsra-ppr.nsf/PPR-By-Date?SearchView&Start=1&SearchMax=0&SearchOrder=4&Query=%5Bdt_execution_date%5D%3E=01/06/2013%20AND%20%5Bdt_execution_date%5D%3C01/01/2014%20AND%20%5Baddress%5D=*Belmont,%20Stepaside*%20AND%20%5Bdc_county%5D=%22Dublin%22&County=Dublin&Year=2013&StartMonth=06&EndMonth=12&Address=Belmont,%20Stepaside

NinjaTruncs

So about 10 of the 60 houses sold have completed, looks like there are a lot of people waiting until the issues are resolved, and rightly so.