Alcohol costs the state €1.7 Billion a year!Call for more taxes.

Smithwicks Man

dj jarvis wrote: »

why not try and see first ? it might make enough of a difference that it might be worthwhile, how do you know it wont work ?

How will you be able to gauge that it is working?

Do you think that if the government managed to increase taxes they would go back and overturn this at a later date?

These figures have been fabricated to support the agenda of raising tax on alcohol and you can bet your ass they'll be fabricated again in a better light to make it look like it was a great idea in the first place and the taxes should stay.

There's a name for stuff like this.. What is it? .... Oh yeah! It's called politics!

worded

Tax - the art of plucking as many feathers from the chicken without it noticing as some royalty said in 1800s.

Probem is we are practically bald here at this stage with taxes.

yer man!

Why don't we have a prohibition, worked well in the states... oh wait...

my my my

if some of us didin't have our beer we'd be gone in the

Iwannahurl

worded wrote: »

Probem is we are practically bald here at this stage with taxes.

Yet we start pulling our hair out when anyone seriously suggests that we spend proportionately less of our income on alcohol by means of drinking less booze.

IIRC the Alcohol Action Ireland psychiatrist quoted earlier in this thread said that if every adult male and female in the country drank the maximum recommended number of units every week we would be consuming 8 litres of pure alcohol per capita every year. The reality is that we are consuming 50% more than that, which means that there are more than a few of us complaining of being skint while pissing away a goodly chunk of our cash on booze.

my my my

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Yet we start pulling our hair out when anyone seriously suggests that we spend proportionately less of our income on alcohol by means of drinking less booze.

IIRC the Alcohol Action Ireland psychiatrist quoted earlier in this thread said that if every adult male and female in the country drank the maximum recommended number of units every week we would be consuming 8 litres of pure alcohol per capita every year. The reality is that we are consuming 50% more than that, which means that there are more than a few of us complaining of being skint while pissing away a goodly chunk of our cash on booze.

if we had a bit of land we would be long asleep and up at daylight, but where is our few acres? if your so smart?

uberalles

If it saves just one life .......

hiiiiiiiic

my my my

free beer for taxpayers

uberalles

We just love taxing the fcuk out of everything here. I dont smoke it, but hopefully weed never becomes legalised for the sake of all the happy stoners out there. Can you imagine the taxes !

Why does everything have to be so heavily taxed here?

Ted_YNWA

Even if they try this, it will probably widen the gap even more. The majority of the estimates look to be someway fixed expenses.

They increases taxes, as they have in past. There probably won't be a huge change in intake from tax. The drop off of people cutting back will ve offset by the per unit increases. So back to square run.

Rinse & repeat.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Remember when you were young you shone like the sun, now there's a look in your eyes like black holes in the sky.

Shine on you Crazy Diamond......

hju6

Please think of the poor sober bankers,

Hootanany

uberalles wrote: »

We just love taxing the fcuk out of everything here. I dont smoke it, but hopefully weed never becomes legalised for the sake of all the happy stoners out there. Can you imagine the taxes !

Why does everything have to be so heavily taxed here?

To pay that PxxxxxxX 3 grand a week pension>

dj jarvis

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

How will you be able to gauge that it is working?

Do you think that if the government managed to increase taxes they would go back and overturn this at a later date?

These figures have been fabricated to support the agenda of raising tax on alcohol and you can bet your ass they'll be fabricated again in a better light to make it look like it was a great idea in the first place and the taxes should stay.

There's a name for stuff like this.. What is it? .... Oh yeah! It's called politics!

so the goverment is massaging the figures from irish based NGO's , and the EU and WHO , sneaky goverment - looks like they will do anything to push this agenda that the Irish drink to much , but we all know that the Irish dont :rolleyes:

dont be silly , the figures from multiple sources point towards over indulgence , lets face it, the amount people drink has dropped since the start of the recession.
, funny that , less money to spend and drinking goes down

putting the price up will lower drinking levels - it would be unfair on the majority of drinkers , but since when did the government give a crap about tax payers anyway ???

Banjo String

I spent 7-8 hours drinking craft beer in the Porter house yesterday so slightly hungover this morning And haven't read whole thread.

Would this be the end result though:

Alcohol, already taxed in Ireland among the highest in EU gets taxed higher again.
exodus of shoppers head over the border to Newry etc and stock up there.

People still get sick. Govt revenue falls dramatically due to cross border shopping.

Clowns.

GT_TDI_150

I love how people on here say they dont want to pay for the idiots that cant hold their drink ....

unless you are at or below the suggested threshold in relation to alcohol consumption you will at some stage be included in that extraordinary costs attributed to alcohol ...

dj jarvis

SamHall wrote: »

I spent 7-8 hours drinking craft beer in the Porter house yesterday so slightly hungover this morning And haven't read whole thread.

Would this be the end result though:

Alcohol, already taxed in Ireland among the highest in EU gets taxed higher again.
exodus of shoppers head over the border to Newry etc and stock up there.

People still get sick. Govt revenue falls dramatically due to cross border shopping.

Clowns.

so you are suggesting that EVERYONE will cross into NI to buy their drink ??

people who live close might , but lets face it , people really wont go to that bother, well the majority would not

and so what if the revenue to the goverment falls , they save of the spend on health , crime , rehab , every cloud and all that

have yet to hear someone come up with a better idea that has worked , NOTHING that has been tried so far has worked , increasing the price has yet to be proven as non viable.

the amount of people smoking has dropped since the smoking ban , they lost revenue from that - did not bother them to lose that revenue stream.

i am open to suggestions

Banjo String

dj jarvis wrote: »

so you are suggesting that EVERYONE will cross into NI to buy their drink ??

people who live close might , but lets face it , people really wont go to that bother, well the majority would not

and so what if the revenue to the goverment falls , they save of the spend on health , crime , rehab , every cloud and all that

have yet to hear someone come up with a better idea that has worked , NOTHING that has been tried so far has worked , increasing the price has yet to be proven as non viable.

the amount of people smoking has dropped since the smoking ban , they lost revenue from that - did not bother them to lose that revenue stream.

i am open to suggestions

you've heard of the black market.

Right?

Days 298

dj jarvis wrote: »

so you are suggesting that EVERYONE will cross into NI to buy their drink ??

people who live close might , but lets face it , people really wont go to that bother, well the majority would not

and so what if the revenue to the goverment falls , they save of the spend on health , crime , rehab , every cloud and all that

have yet to hear someone come up with a better idea that has worked , NOTHING that has been tried so far has worked , increasing the price has yet to be proven as non viable.

the amount of people smoking has dropped since the smoking ban , they lost revenue from that - did not bother them to lose that revenue stream.

i am open to suggestions

23% Vat is hardly nothing now is it? Excise of 22% on beer and 41% on wine. The government is already taxing it heavily. As I said we pay enough tax already

In 2002 they increased cider excise 87%, consumption fell by just 13%. So what increase do you propose on current excise rates? 10%? 20%? 100%? 250%? How do we squeeze the consumers to stop enjoying themselves with naughty drink.

One in three cigerettes are sold on the black market. We won't need to seek foreign drink (although a booze cruise to France sounds fun) it'll come to us.

Wompa1

Wompa1 wrote: »

The country should begin to enforce the laws that are already on the books. We should also be prosecuting parents when kids are caught for underage drinking. (Only because our current laws are so lax for underage people)

Well, they can legally drink it under 18 with parental consent and in someone's home, which is fine with me
A more relaxed attitude at home and a glass of wine now and then might take away the "it's so cool to be a rebel drinking" culture

dj jarvis

SamHall wrote: »

you've heard of the black market.

Right?

i have , so you think the population of drinkers will either migrate north or buy illegal black market drink , sure a small proportion will , but the vast majority wont
just becasue they might put 30/40 cent on a can will not flag a new bootleg culture , we are not gong to have speakeasy popping up all over the place

so , as i have asked many times , what is your solution , or are you just going to keep shooting down this one without offering one ?

im a drinker , i would not be happy about paying more , but it is the obvious choice IMO , in life we pay for others problems all the time, so why is this so different ?

mikom

Headline............Alcohol costs the state €1.7 Billion a year!

Subsidised Dail bar still open I see.
The one that was open the night the banks were guaranteed...........

Smithwicks Man

dj jarvis wrote: »

so the goverment is massaging the figures from irish based NGO's , and the EU and WHO , sneaky goverment - looks like they will do anything to push this agenda that the Irish drink to much , but we all know that the Irish dont :rolleyes:

dont be silly , the figures from multiple sources point towards over indulgence , lets face it, the amount people drink has dropped since the start of the recession.
, funny that , less money to spend and drinking goes down

putting the price up will lower drinking levels - it would be unfair on the majority of drinkers , but since when did the government give a crap about tax payers anyway ???

But the topic isn't about over indulgence, it says that alcohol costs the state €1.7b per year which just simply isn't true. Drinking in pubs perhaps, how can the amount of drink being taken at home/bought in NI be gauged ?

Why not just put up VAT and income tax as well? Nonsense

Mr Benevolent

If they up the price of alcohol I'll just make more. They can't put duty on the alcohol I make for my own consumption.

fibonaccii

Alcohol costs the state €1.7 Billion a year!

There should be calls for more education not bloody taxes.....

Freddy Smelly

why dont they just drop the free medical cover on drunk related injuries?

get drunk and start a fight? well pay cash to the hospital for treating for your injuries. you'll soon learn that drinking too much will hit your pocket.

fibonaccii

Freddy Smelly wrote: »

why dont they just drop the free medical cover on drunk related injuries?

get drunk and start a fight? well pay cash to the hospital for treating for your injuries. you'll soon learn that drinking too much will hit your pocket.

Anyone that drinks and runs into trouble have well paid for there medical expenses in VAT.

dj jarvis

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

But the topic isn't about over indulgence, it says that Drinking in pubs perhaps, how can the amount of drink being taken at home/bought in NI be gauged ?

Why not just put up VAT and income tax as well? Nonsense

easily gauged , the amount produced locally and the amount imported , they add it up , gives you a figure of amounts bought per person

so , other than making it so more expensive that it cuts consumption , and less consumption means less spending on health , crime and rehab,
and your solution is what ?

education does not and has not worked.

wexie

dj jarvis wrote: »

easily gauged , the amount produced locally and the amount imported , they add it up , gives you a figure of amounts bought per person

so , other than making it so more expensive that it cuts consumption , and less consumption means less spending on health , crime and rehab,
and your solution is what ?

education does not and has not worked.

Where do you imagine they get the figures from for alcohol bought up North / abroad?

wexie

fibonaccii wrote: »

Anyone that drinks and runs into trouble have well paid for there medical expenses in VAT.

That's one of the most ludicrous things I've read today

GT_TDI_150

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

unless you are at or below the suggested threshold in relation to alcohol consumption you will at some stage be included in that extraordinary costs attributed to alcohol ...

I disagree, loads of people who drink won't add to that figure.

dj jarvis wrote: »

easily gauged , the amount produced locally and the amount imported , they add it up , gives you a figure of amounts bought per person

so , other than making it so more expensive that it cuts consumption , and less consumption means less spending on health , crime and rehab,
and your solution is what ?

education does not and has not worked.

How about just stop interfering and let people drink as much or as little as they want.

I hate all this nanny state rubbish trying to control people's lives.

Smithwicks Man

dj jarvis wrote: »

easily gauged , the amount produced locally and the amount imported , they add it up , gives you a figure of amounts bought per person

so , other than making it so more expensive that it cuts consumption , and less consumption means less spending on health , crime and rehab,
and your solution is what ?

education does not and has not worked.

Where are you gonna get the figures for what I'm bringing across the border?


You're living in dreamland. The price of alcohol is very high at the minute for a product that is so readily available and popular. It's already been said that the tax on it is extremely high. If the prices go up anymore, the black market for drink will just expand and then the government will lose money and still have the problems associated with alcohol abuse.

Smithwicks Man

Jaycee Wooden Cobble wrote: »

I disagree, loads of people who drink won't add to that figure.



How about just stop interfering and let people drink as much or as little as they want.

I hate all this nanny state rubbish trying to control people's lives.

Exactly. It's the attempts at controlling people's lives that really pi**es me off

Days 298

Jaycee Wooden Cobble wrote: »

How about just stop interfering and let people drink as much or as little as they want.

I hate all this nanny state rubbish trying to control people's lives.

You mean the state not interfering in our lives and letting us make a decision on our own like... like... adults. Never. Tax you Id say your ideas are dangerous, less of individual opinions and more state funded lobbyists calling the shots :pac:

ScumLord

Freddy Smelly wrote: »

why dont they just drop the free medical cover on drunk related injuries?

get drunk and start a fight? well pay cash to the hospital for treating for your injuries. you'll soon learn that drinking too much will hit your pocket.

What's the point in having an accident and emergency unit if it's going to turn away injured people on the basis of them having recreational accidents.

I'm sure we've all had drunken mishaps but we don't have them every weekend. It's only the shear volume of accidents happening at the same time that overloads the ER.

I think allowing people to leave nightclubs at their discretion rather than all at the same time would reduce that overload. There are many nights where I'm just waiting for it to end so I can go home. If there was no end I'd probably be inclined to leave earlier.

mattjack

DarkJager wrote: »

I think the psychiatrist should shut the **** up and stick to her job. She obviously doesn't understand how a black market is created.

I think "she" is a he.

Roger_007

ScumLord wrote: »

What's the point in having an accident and emergency unit if it's going to turn away injured people on the basis of them having recreational accidents.

I'm sure we've all had drunken mishaps but we don't have them every weekend. It's only the shear volume of accidents happening at the same time that overloads the ER.

I think allowing people to leave nightclubs at their discretion rather than all at the same time would reduce that overload. There are many nights where I'm just waiting for it to end so I can go home. If there was no end I'd probably be inclined to leave earlier.

I don't know what all this talk about drink-related injuries is coming from. I have had reason to be in A&E depts. many times over the last two years and at different times of the day and night and at weekends. I have rarely seen anyone there because of drink-related accidents or fights etc. It can be chaotic at busy times but that is due mostly to the numbers.
Also I have no idea where the 3.7bn figure comes from. How would it be possible to calculate that figure anyway?

ScumLord

Roger_007 wrote: »

Also I have no idea where the 3.7bn figure comes from. How would it be possible to calculate that figure anyway?

It's a bunkum sensationalist number pulled out of their holes.

Days 298

Here it is.

Days 298 wrote: »

I found the the made up 3.7billion's configuration! All estimates!

ESTIMATED Cost to Healthcare : €1.2billion
ESTIMATED Crime Costs : €1.2billion
ESTIMATED Road Collision Costs: €526 million
ESTIMATED Cost of work absenteeism : €330 million

ESTIMATED Total cost to government 3.7 billion

Estimate much.....
Of course a group called Alcohol Action Ireland wouldnt be biased against drink....

SOURCE:http://alcoholireland.ie/facts/alcohol-related-harm-facts-and-statistics/

Roger_007 wrote: »

Also I have no idea where the 3.7bn figure comes from. How would it be possible to calculate that figure anyway?

Roger_007

ScumLord wrote: »

It's a bunkum sensationalist number pulled out of their holes.

Ah! That explains it. So they got it from the same part of their anatomy as that guy at Anglo. It's a common source for many official stats these days. I think the formula is:

-Think of a number between 1 and a billion,
-multiply it by the number of times you went to the toilet today,
-add another billion or two, (just for the hell of it),
-make sure your answer is a big number,(people are impressed by big numbers)

It is important to remember that when using this number in public always preface it by saying: "latest research shows etc. etc.....", (being careful never to give any source that could be checked).

mattjack

ScumLord wrote: »

It's a bunkum sensationalist number pulled out of their holes.

I'm nearly certain those figures are from 2006/2007 from a HSE report , Bobby Smyth is a HSE employee involved in child/adolescent mental health care in the south side of Dublin , I think he's a psychiatrist and lectures occasionally .

I don't think he is involved involved in research stuff , he works as a consultant.I don't know if he was involved in that report.

Sunnyisland

The estimates in this report are based on the methods used in similar reports from other developed countries,

particularly the reports for England and Wales and for Scotland and Northern Ireland. The estimated overall

cost to Irish society of problem alcohol use is €3.7 billion in 2007. The components of the estimates are given

in the following table.


[FONT=ArialNarrow,Bold][FONT=ArialNarrow,Bold]€million % of total costs[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=ArialNarrow,Bold]


[/FONT]
Cost to the health care system of alcohol related illnesses €1,200 32

Cost of alcohol related suicides 167 5

Cost of alcohol related road accidents 526 14

Cost of alcohol related crime €1,189 32

Cost of output lost due to alcohol related absence from work 330 9

Cost of alcohol related accidents at work 197 5

Cost of alcohol related premature mortality 110 3


[FONT=ArialNarrow,Bold][FONT=ArialNarrow,Bold]Total €3,719 100[/FONT]
[FONT=ArialNarrow,Bold]
[FONT=ArialNarrow,Bold]The increase in alcohol consumption has caused a commensurate increase
alcohol related harms in Irish society. These are comprehensively documented in [FONT=ArialNarrow,Italic][FONT=ArialNarrow,Italic]Alcohol Related Harms in [/FONT][FONT=ArialNarrow,Italic][FONT=ArialNarrow,Italic]Ireland [/FONT][/FONT](Hope, 2008) which shows an alarming increase in alcohol related accidents and illnesses, alcohol
related crime, alcohol related domestic abuse and alcohol related absences from work
The main costs are the additional costs imposed on the health care system, the criminal justice system and the costs of road accidents http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CDcQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hse.ie%2Feng%2Fservices%2FPublications%2Ftopics%2Falcohol%2FCosts%2520to%2520Society%2520of%2520Problem%2520Alcohol%2520Use%2520in%2520Ireland.pdf&ei=9UAaUpHbHe_A7Aau2ICQCg&usg=AFQjCNEL-jpGGGR7n_CSa5iyR_fQOFX9eQ&bvm=bv.51156542,d.ZGU
[/FONT]
Found this info from the hse, might help the debate,might not.
[/FONT]

[/FONT][/FONT]

Sunnyisland

Sorry for the big letters.

dj jarvis

wexie wrote: »

Where do you imagine they get the figures from for alcohol bought up North / abroad?

when you import goods into the country you have a shipping manifest that contains the amount imported , add that to the amount brewed here and you get a figure - as for drink bought in the north , do you have figures stating its so much that it would effect the figures down here ?

i would image very few people further than 50 miles of the north bother driving up to save a few euro , considering the cost of the fuel to get up there.
the same would really apply to wine coming over from France , how many van loads of wine do you think come up from rosslaire everyday ?

drop in the ocean of the 6.5 billion spent in the state on drink

BOHtox

Days 298 wrote: »

I found the the made up 3.7billion's configuration! All estimates!

ESTIMATED Cost to Healthcare : €1.2billion
ESTIMATED Crime Costs : €1.2billion
ESTIMATED Road Collision Costs: €526 million
ESTIMATED Cost of work absenteeism : €330 million

ESTIMATED Total cost to government 3.7 billion

Estimate much.....
Of course a group called Alcohol Action Ireland wouldnt be biased against drink....

SOURCE:http://alcoholireland.ie/facts/alcohol-related-harm-facts-and-statistics/

Perhaps if people purchased their own healthcare like they do cars, food, clothes, houses etc which are all necessities the cost to the state of alcohol would be ZERO! Obviously the government would hae to help some people afford their own private health but a vouchered-healthcare system run privately would still cost a lot less than the HSE

wexie

ScumLord wrote: »

I'm sure we've all had drunken mishaps but we don't have them every weekend.

errr.....actually no, YOU might have....but WE....haven't....as some of us manage to drink responsibly and not hurt ourselves or anyone else.

ScumLord wrote: »

What's the point in having an accident and emergency unit if it's going to turn away injured people on the basis of them having recreational accidents.

I don't think anyone's arguing that A&E should be turning away sloppy drunks...just that perhaps society needn't be funding their 'recreation' related healthcare costs...

dj jarvis

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Exactly. It's the attempts at controlling people's lives that really pi**es me off

so in essence you are happy to pay towards the 1.6 billion drinking costs you and me ?

thats fine , once you know that you are - then good for you

Freddy Smelly

ScumLord wrote: »

What's the point in having an accident and emergency unit if it's going to turn away injured people on the basis of them having recreational accidents.

i never said turn them away... i said charge them for the treatment.

Roger_007

Freddy Smelly wrote: »

i never said turn them away... i said charge them for the treatment.

So how would that work in practice. If someone was out for a meal and had a glass of wine and tripped and broke a leg on the way home? Would you charge them? Would there be some sort of breathalyser test which, if you failed, you would be charged? If you happened to be an innocent bystander who happened to have had a couple of pints and who got hit by a flying bottle, would you be charged?
Before throwing out ideas, please think them through first.

Smithwicks Man

dj jarvis wrote: »

so in essence you are happy to pay towards the 1.6 billion drinking costs you and me ?

thats fine , once you know that you are - then good for you

What are you talking about?

Sure taxing it more would just mean I'd be paying even more :rolleyes: