Cashless buses - the way forward?

LXFlyer

I see from the TFL Facebook page that they're considering introducing cashless buses in London - quite a debate on it with comments pretty much split 50/50.

www.facebook.com/transportforlondon

We’re thinking about going cashless on buses. We are currently consulting on removing cash fare payments on Transport for London bus services. We’d like to hear your views by Friday 11 October 2013. All feedback needs to given through the online survey at www.tfl.gov.uk/cashless

This will help reduce boarding times, as well as save you money. Fares using a contactless payment card or an Oyster card are £1 cheaper than a cash single fare.

Cool Mo D

Cashless buses with multiple doors is definitely the future.

It would need way more inspectors, and on-street ticket machines though.

frag420

NO way this would ever work in Dublin. The busworkers unions would have a field day with this!! Its just too practical and forward thinking for them to actually grasp. I say this as someone who grew up in Ireland and now lives in London.

If Dublin Bus/Irish Rail/ Bus Eireann etc had even a fraction of the forward thinking, customer satisfaction, time keeping, cleanliness, etc that TFL has then Dublin/Ireland would be a better place for it esp for tourists!

frAg

cdebru

frag420 wrote: »

NO way this would ever work in Dublin. The busworkers unions would have a field day with this!! Its just too practical and forward thinking for them to actually grasp. I say this as someone who grew up in Ireland and now lives in London.

If Dublin Bus/Irish Rail/ Bus Eireann etc had even a fraction of the forward thinking, customer satisfaction, time keeping, cleanliness, etc that TFL has then Dublin/Ireland would be a better place for it esp for tourists!

frAg

I love the way people presume the trade unions would object, on what basis ?
There already were cashless buses in Dublin before the autofare system was introduced in an attempt to cut down on assaults and robberies, why would trade unions object to it now ?

As to the question is it the way forward, yes and Dublin is already moving that way, hence the discounted fares for prepaid tickets and leap cards, whether you can remove cash completely I don't know but cash is already more awkward and expensive to use so the solution maybe to make it even more expensive and make non cash fares even simpler maybe to include debit cards etc.

Mr Simpson

Look at the percentage of cash fares in London. 1%. Dublin is a long way from that, before we can even consider cashless buses

the_syco

Considering the amount of people who still pay cash as opposed to the (cheaper) Leap card thing, I can't see this happening any time soon.

hfallada

There needs to be a greater difference between Cash and prepaid tickets. Its quite small at the moment for most people to switch to a prepaid ticket. If cash was 20% more expensive than any other ticket, I would say a lot of people would switch.

But Irish people are among the highest users of cash in the EU. A lot of Irish dont have bank accounts and pay for everything in a cash form, even when using a card makes sense

L1011

The oyster fares are so much lower than cash and oyster so easy to obtain that next to nobody uses it. Copy that for leap and we'll be able to do this soon.

Sam Russell

Currently there are two fares for leap on buses, one for short journeys and one for long journeys. For short journeys, the driver is involved. Leap fares should be significantly lower than cash fares and only the lower fare should apply.

The other problem is the high level of abuse of the FreeTravelPass, and the lack of proper checking. It is not secured by any method - no expiry date, no proper basis for checking, no ability of the driver to cope with false/invalid passes.

Solve those two and DB might be onto something.

cdebru

Sam Russell wrote: »

Currently there are two fares for leap on buses, one for short journeys and one for long journeys. For short journeys, the driver is involved. Leap fares should be significantly lower than cash fares and only the lower fare should apply.

The other problem is the high level of abuse of the FreeTravelPass, and the lack of proper checking. It is not secured by any method - no expiry date, no proper basis for checking, no ability of the driver to cope with false/invalid passes.

Solve those two and DB might be onto something.

And get ticket machines that can actually handle the leap card.

Cookie_Monster

Surely they are legally required to take cash and couldn't bring this in regardless of whether DB wanted to or not.

Victor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Surely they are legally required to take cash and couldn't bring this in regardless of whether DB wanted to or not.

Any business is allowed dictate its terms of business. The suggestion is that they would be willing to take cash at any of about 700 locations, but not on the bus.

It is only obligatory to accept cash for debts. so they would need to accept cash for Standard Fares

BuffyBot

frag420 wrote: »

NO way this would ever work in Dublin. The busworkers unions would have a field day with this!! Its just too practical and forward thinking for them to actually grasp. I say this as someone who grew up in Ireland and now lives in London.

If Dublin Bus/Irish Rail/ Bus Eireann etc had even a fraction of the forward thinking, customer satisfaction, time keeping, cleanliness, etc that TFL has then Dublin/Ireland would be a better place for it esp for tourists!

frAg

That's a rather overly large generalisation with very little to support it. If you (or anyone else) wants to add to a discussion, it's expected you bring support for your point of view.

So, reminder to all: these kinds of sweeping generalisations are pointless. Don't post them.

dowlingm

hfallada wrote: »

But Irish people are among the highest users of cash in the EU. A lot of Irish dont have bank accounts and pay for everything in a cash form, even when using a card makes sense

It would help if the Department of Finance repealed the ridiculous tax on such cards. :mad:

Caonima

Where I live, in Shanghai, they've had the travel card idea for over a decade now. One travel card that can pay for buses, subways, taxis, pretty much any form of transport, and you can also use the card to pay for things in some shops. Used to have a Luas card back in the day, which was great (albeit a little on the pricey side). Just can't understand why the Irish government haven't pressed to have a travel card for buses, too, or some travel card to cover most forms of public transport in the city. We're way behind on these things.

dowlingm

It depends on what you mean by pressed. The government proceeded by trying to get buy in from the various companies in their nominal independence rather than starting from a clean sheet of paper in respect of how much it should cost to get from A-B, how to allocate costs and revenues etc. None of this is easy stuff but the varying responses to that adopted within CIE, never mind other bodies like RPA and the privates, doomed the project to interminable delays. The fear must be now that LEAP is rolling out that the notion of physical cards will be overtaken by alternative media like smartphone payment which will require even more capital to support at front and back ends.

cdebru

dowlingm wrote: »

It depends on what you mean by pressed. The government proceeded by trying to get buy in from the various companies in their nominal independence rather than starting from a clean sheet of paper in respect of how much it should cost to get from A-B, how to allocate costs and revenues etc. None of this is easy stuff but the varying responses to that adopted within CIE, never mind other bodies like RPA and the privates, doomed the project to interminable delays. The fear must be now that LEAP is rolling out that the notion of physical cards will be overtaken by alternative media like smartphone payment which will require even more capital to support at front and back ends.

The easiest way at this stage is for the NTA to tender bus routes and the Luas which are both up for renewal on a kilometre driven basis. That way you remove the competition between providers for revenue, as all revenue would go to the NTA, who would then pay the service providers, for the service provided not the number of passengers carried.

No Pants

dowlingm wrote: »

It would help if the Department of Finance repealed the ridiculous tax on such cards. :mad:

And the banks then charge a fee for every use. Makes more sense for me to withdraw my cash €80 at a time.

LXFlyer

Returning to my original post, what I found more interesting was that in London (where the core city centre area is already cash less), the comments on the TfL Facebook page were split pretty much down the middle, with certainly more negative comments than I expected.

Victor

No Pants wrote: »

And the banks then charge a fee for every use. Makes more sense for me to withdraw my cash €80 at a time.

Certainly, Bank of Ireland have changed their pricing structure.

If staff involved - 40c
Automated - 20c
Contactless transactions - free

AlekSmart

Victor wrote: »

Certainly, Bank of Ireland have changed their pricing structure.

If staff involved - 40c
Automated - 20c
Contactless transactions - free

The problem Victor is that the Banking sector sees this as merely a "Sweetner" to attract as many users into the Card Net as possible before moving swiftly to remove that sweetner...

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/boi-to-charge-for-debit-card-use-234138.html

This projected 15c per transaction charge when applied to a Bus Fare would IMO amount to little more than gouging and should be struck-down with some ferocity by the Banking Regulator....:mad:

As for the Cashless arguement,I feel it is totally moot,as the NTA/Leap have somewhat magnificently failed to grasp the blank-page opportunity which they had...what we are now enmeshed in,is little more than an embarrassing example of how we are culturally incapable of understanding the definition of terms such as "Integrated" (and/or Smart)....:o

coylemj

Really can't see the relevance of what Tfl is doing in London. Over there the vast majority of tourists journeys on public transport are on the tube and there are cash machines and manned (personned?) ticket desks in every tube station. You see very few tourists on the standard London buses so if they stopped taking cash it would have very little effect given that the vast majority of Londoners (and frequent visitors like me) have Oyster cards.

Going cashless in Dublin would seriously affect tourists and casual weekend travellers like the people you'd see getting on the 46A in Stillorgan going to the RDS or the Aviva for matches, most of them pay cash and very few of them know the fares so they slow the bus up big time fumbling with coins. Being completely selfish and armed with my Travel90 and Leap cards, I would love it if Dublin bus stopped taking cash because it would speed things up but I can't see it happening here for a while yet.

MadsL

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Surely they are legally required to take cash and couldn't bring this in regardless of whether DB wanted to or not.

Cashless public transport has worked for years in places like Holland, Germany, Czech Republic and Hungary.

Buy a paper ticket or a period pass. Punch your ticket yourself once on the buss, it is valid for a fixed time period.

Get caught without a ticket by undercover inspectors and pay a heavy fine.

Here's a documentary (;)) I recommend about it, one of the funniest films I have ever seen.

http://youtu.be/vncalWHCX8U

mikemac1

A smart card that requires you to talk to the driver is not a smart card.

I don't know the solution for DB but it's a negative for me switching

Chris_5339762

Amsterdam is all smart card now. No cash accepted. You just go buy a disposable 1 day smartcard (or other variants) if you are a tourist.

coylemj

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Surely they are legally required to take cash and couldn't bring this in regardless of whether DB wanted to or not.

They already refuse notes of all denominations and these are all legal tender so clearly there's no legal problem with refusing cash outright.

If you owe someone money and offer to pay in legal tender money then they are obliged to accept but it doesn't mean that someone offering a service or selling goods is obliged to accept what you tender in advance of the goods or service being delivered. The vendor can set the terms and conditions any way they choose, including defining acceptable forms of payment.

AlekSmart

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Amsterdam is all smart card now. No cash accepted. You just go buy a disposable 1 day smartcard (or other variants) if you are a tourist.

It really THE most bizzarre situation which in more ways than one illustrates the reality of our not being European in any real-sense.

The ITS Leapcard is one of the most modern,functional and technologically advanced cards of its type,yet our ITS Administrators have demonstrated a rather comprehensive lack of appreciation of what they actually have.

Leapcard COULD have revolutionized Dublins Public Transport overnight...it could have delivered functionality,integration and much else had it been introduced by people who knew what they were about....Instead it has been used largely as a complement to the age old Cash Transaction,which it should have replaced.

Yet,as we are constantly reminded,we are somehow "different" to the rest of Europe,we cannot be expected to adopt new technologies without a prolonged,nay continual,introductory period,which usually results in the non-compliant rump always calling the shots on the service provided to the compliant,responsible majority.

The ITS/Leapcard situation now is akin to allocating a Busdriver a brand new €300,000+ GT bus then giving that driver a Whip and a Tartan Rug, before attaching a Pair of Shire Horses to the front.....before worrying about whether or not I'm the second highest paid Busdriver in the world,I'd suggest a far closer look at the credentials and renumeration of the folks in the the Dept of Transport/NTA !! :mad:

Irish Halo

lxflyer wrote: »

London (where the core city centre area is already cash less)

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Amsterdam is all smart card now. No cash accepted.

These 2 statements confuse me I live in both these cities and can pay cash on any bus in both places. London had some bus routes where you had to buy a ticket from the roadside machines first but are being phased out. In Amsterdam if I get on a bus the driver will sell me a 1 hour ticket and on most trams there is a "conductor" in a booth who will do the same.

I would stress cash is discouraged, I have an OV Chipkaart and Oyster (and a leap and a Taipei EasyPass) but have had to pay cash when my balance is too low. To say either city is cashless (particularly London) is wrong.

jimmycrackcorm

What DB should do is insist on only the leap card and if you have only cash then you can buy a card from the driver for a minimum credit such as €5 with a fee charge for doing so to discourage it. Or even stick to the prepaid tickets but only apply multi-journey tickets. Pretty soon people would get used to to using cards.

It would also need the 'tag off' to work on the bus for leap but also on the street at the busy drop off stops such as the city centre .

Sam Russell

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

What DB should do is insist on only the leap card and if you have only cash then you can buy a card from the driver for a minimum credit such as €5 with a fee charge for doing so to discourage it. Or even stick to the prepaid tickets but only apply multi-journey tickets. Pretty soon people would get used to to using cards.

It would also need the 'tag off' to work on the bus for leap but also on the street at the busy drop off stops such as the city centre .

If they had a single (low) fare for Leap cards on the bus, no need to tag-off. It would speed the conversion to Leap. If drivers sold €10 Leap cards, it would be even quicker.

cdebru

Sam Russell wrote: »

If they had a single (low) fare for Leap cards on the bus, no need to tag-off. It would speed the conversion to Leap. If drivers sold €10 Leap cards, it would be even quicker.

Unfortunately security issues come into play when drivers have access to cash or something that can be quickly converted into cash.
We don't want to return to the dark days of the 90s when drivers were robbed and assaulted on a regular basis.

monument

coylemj wrote: »

Really can't see the relevance of what Tfl is doing in London. Over there the vast majority of tourists journeys on public transport are on the tube and there are cash machines and manned (personned?) ticket desks in every tube station. You see very few tourists on the standard London buses so if they stopped taking cash it would have very little effect given that the vast majority of Londoners (and frequent visitors like me) have Oyster cards.

Going cashless in Dublin would seriously affect tourists and casual weekend travellers like the people you'd see getting on the 46A in Stillorgan going to the RDS or the Aviva for matches, most of them pay cash and very few of them know the fares so they slow the bus up big time fumbling with coins. Being completely selfish and armed with my Travel90 and Leap cards, I would love it if Dublin bus stopped taking cash because it would speed things up but I can't see it happening here for a while yet.

Casual weekend travellers on London buses and the tube manage to buy Oyster cards, so it won't be too hard for our casual weekend travellers to find one of the 700 locations where you can pick up a Leap card. Look at placing a few TVMs at least along highly used QBCs or just do as the RPA did at the start and have staff sign people up to Leap at busier stops -- this can be done on match days etc to start with.

Run a large ad campain, and get the AA etc to give warnings before and on the day of the major matches or other events in the first 6 months after going cashless.

As for tourists -- put TVMs with Leap pre-loaded with 1/2/5/7 day tickets at Dublin airport, Dublin port, O'Connel Street, Dame Street, train stations etc. And also sell them in tourists card packs (as Amsterdam etc does) and at tourist offices and hotels etc.

For both groups, if needs be, expand the 700 Leap sales locations.

The relevance of what London is doing is that we also have cost and time issues around handling cash and the way to fix that is to phase cash out even if that upsets some people.

Beforehand, the difference between card and cash fares will still have to climb and more products will have to be added to Leap.

MGWR

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Cashless buses with multiple doors is definitely the future.

It would need way more inspectors, and on-street ticket machines though

Ah, so it's more labour-intensive and more machine-intensive than past modes of fare collection. More police-state-intensive too, what with inspectors basically needing a level of police powers and more police officers needed to keep vandals from destroying ticket machines.

And more doors on vehicles = fewer seats and higher maintenance costs. What about that would attract a driver out of his/her car?

thisisadamh

Just install a Luas type leap card tag on/off point at each bus stop. Way faster boarding times then. An inspector would just be needed on some services to make sure people are not abusing the trust system.

limklad

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Cashless buses with multiple doors is definitely the future.

It would need way more inspectors, and on-street ticket machines though.

It works in many sites I been to. It also works on the luas in dublin.

In Rome there is a small machine on buses to get a single bus ticket. The bus driver do not have any interaction with it. Most people there get weekly, monthly, etc tickets for public transport and validate it on the bus with the machines on the bus. Some cites have large fines for failing to have a €2 ticket or failing to validate it when they get onto the bus. I see similar things in other cites on my travels. They have multiples doors and the driver, well just drives, and not worry about non-paying fares.

Only here in Ireland I see cash on very little doors on buses compare to our European neighbors, yet I am surprise there is not more robberies on buses for easy access to cash even small change. I see more people in Ireland who will try to get anything for free than else where or how to screw the system which the rest of us will have to pay for it with rises in our tickets costs.

Leap card and bus cards, etc is the way forwards with surprise inspections with our current bus inspectors with fines for having no valid ticket with much higher fines. It should not be up to the driver to check tickets. They already have enough hassle on a daily basis. It will also save on costs with less attacks on bus drivers with security costs, medical costs for drivers, damage costs and courts costs, police costs, administration costs.

Most people have bank/credit cards to pay for tickets at machines and lots of machines take cash at designated areas which well frankly most of us knows how to use, while some albeit slowly use them and complain at it for there own ignorance and lack of competence to use machines.
Some buses have single coins machine for tickets, which are more expensive for single trips.
In some cites, you can pay at the end of the journey, if there is no working machine where you got on.

When I travel to other cites, the first thing I get is a public transport ticket to cover the period that I am there whenever it a tourist card or the same card the locals pay for. No need to look for cash after that, just display the ticket when needed. Some times there is not need to get the ticket out after validating such as Berlin, or Posnan/Gdansk when there last summer for the Euros.
On those days the match ticket cover for the day public transport.

Victor

thisisadamh wrote: »

Just install a Luas type leap card tag on/off point at each bus stop. Way faster boarding times then. An inspector would just be needed on some services to make sure people are not abusing the trust system.

7,500 Dublin Bus stops. 5,000 bus Éireann stops. At a minimum of a few hundred euros a pop - add for electrical supplies and data connections.

Hmmmm

Cool Mo D

MGWR wrote: »

Ah, so it's more labour-intensive and more machine-intensive than past modes of fare collection. More police-state-intensive too, what with inspectors basically needing a level of police powers and more police officers needed to keep vandals from destroying ticket machines.

And more doors on vehicles = fewer seats and higher maintenance costs. What about that would attract a driver out of his/her car?

No more machine intensive. Ticket machines will just be moved out of the buses.

No more labour intensive either. Currently, it takes an age for buses to empty out and fill again at bus stops, it is easily the no.1 cause of delay for Dublin bus. Faster buses means less drivers needed, so spare capacity for conductors.

Vandalism is a total non-issue, there is already a no cash on board public transport system in Dublin, and it is by far the most frequent, reliable and popular system we have. Only busy bus stops would need ticket machines anyway, people can buy bus tickets in the local shop instead, just like now.

The loss of seats is a total non-issue. Dublin bus is not in trouble because of a lack of seats on its bus, it is in trouble because of slow, unreliable bus services that are losing customers.

limklad

thisisadamh wrote: »

Just install a Luas type leap card tag on/off point at each bus stop. Way faster boarding times then. An inspector would just be needed on some services to make sure people are not abusing the trust system.

Victor wrote: »

7,500 Dublin Bus stops. 5,000 bus Éireann stops. At a minimum of a few hundred euros a pop - add for electrical supplies and data connections.

Hmmmm

You do not need to tag off the bus with the leap card, Just tag when getting on. There is no limit on the range when getting on the bus unlike DART and LUAS.

Leap cards can be used on all Dublin Bus.
https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=OnQvufA5%2bpaGDmGnJ469Y4n7CGgqVk14vkNjstlwnBEljpF0%2f1d1QRVDsblX%2fuAKbjTatbXqKp29FdyjcSi5%2fgNkil3lOwc9Pi9i120%2fvXJSYR%2fio2DoMsdSM4bU7A1Ww9UQITOBMNIK0PXnlUZgHmAqbOFX2Fv3J0Kw6V15%2b2c%3d

Leap card can be topped up not just at ticket machines but online and at various shops.

http://www.payzone.ie/paywithpayzone.jsp
https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=buhw25pm2KOs3pnHlI74iSHDdO4YNZQx%2bFI5QL%2fiXy7vv%2fxEYFS3Ov4F%2b5yYHE3msxYbZl%2b4V1MSZWRT4fmeka5r%2bUhY07tqQUTHx67mh9DDeZsEvmxK2ylTSBWr6XTPFtv%2bXwYxSalP9yFdO7Irq0C%2bmdteSAteRihAkmu6FrQ%3d

I believe bus Éireann in Cork city bus will accept the leap card also. I hope Bus Éireann in Limerick city bus will accept it too soon.
http://corkindependent.com/20130606/news/leap-cards-for-cork-S66653.html

https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=XypAp%2fBYmTQFS7Jg0n4hcped9kC%2fg0i3FSLBGVbpQJVNde%2fY8Y1Y1YqIZ%2bgTKG6VKkFLql0%2b59sXPkbM8s%2bjiY4D7HiQDfJpC9Zp%2fZLemERbKFbPSJWdVtkS1uLSoFN7bgcnuSoh%2fc%2bb03g7yslffDrD%2fGVc67yzY6uWhs5noAI%3d

I have a Leap card as I do not have to wait behind anyone at a ticket machine who is clueless in how to use it or the machine is not working. I waste a lot of time on ticket machines purchasing tickets and I am annoyed when I miss the DART or LUAS because of unnecessary delays. The other thing, I have to keep reminding myself to tag off otherwise I am charge full journey rather than the short hop.

limklad

thisisadamh wrote: »

Just install a Luas type leap card tag on/off point at each bus stop. Way faster boarding times then. An inspector would just be needed on some services to make sure people are not abusing the trust system.

I agree with this. But we need to get away from the driver in checking tickets and taking money and concentrate more of their attention on driving. We need to move to a European version of public transport.
Most buses have CCTV cameras. Inspectors can see if there is repeated offenders and then move to that area and get those individuals, especially if they are regulars and take them to court for non-payment of fares. In reality just like now they will always be those who will abuse the system, no system is full proof. Luas is similar to the European version of public transport but with far more inspectors or personnel here asking to show tickets. On all my years of travels, I never been asked in other countries to show my public transport ticket unlike here in Ireland where it is a regular occurrence especially at match times. Only private transport and long distance travel have ask me for my ticket.

cdebru

limklad wrote: »

You do not need to tag off the bus with the leap card, Just tag when getting on. There is no limit on the range when getting on the bus unlike DART and LUAS.

Leap cards can be used on all Dublin Bus.
https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=OnQvufA5%2bpaGDmGnJ469Y4n7CGgqVk14vkNjstlwnBEljpF0%2f1d1QRVDsblX%2fuAKbjTatbXqKp29FdyjcSi5%2fgNkil3lOwc9Pi9i120%2fvXJSYR%2fio2DoMsdSM4bU7A1Ww9UQITOBMNIK0PXnlUZgHmAqbOFX2Fv3J0Kw6V15%2b2c%3d

Leap card can be topped up not just at ticket machines but online and at various shops.

http://www.payzone.ie/paywithpayzone.jsp
https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=buhw25pm2KOs3pnHlI74iSHDdO4YNZQx%2bFI5QL%2fiXy7vv%2fxEYFS3Ov4F%2b5yYHE3msxYbZl%2b4V1MSZWRT4fmeka5r%2bUhY07tqQUTHx67mh9DDeZsEvmxK2ylTSBWr6XTPFtv%2bXwYxSalP9yFdO7Irq0C%2bmdteSAteRihAkmu6FrQ%3d

I believe bus Éireann in Cork city bus will accept the leap card also. I hope Bus Éireann in Limerick city bus will accept it too soon.
http://corkindependent.com/20130606/news/leap-cards-for-cork-S66653.html

https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=XypAp%2fBYmTQFS7Jg0n4hcped9kC%2fg0i3FSLBGVbpQJVNde%2fY8Y1Y1YqIZ%2bgTKG6VKkFLql0%2b59sXPkbM8s%2bjiY4D7HiQDfJpC9Zp%2fZLemERbKFbPSJWdVtkS1uLSoFN7bgcnuSoh%2fc%2bb03g7yslffDrD%2fGVc67yzY6uWhs5noAI%3d

I have a Leap card as I do not have to wait behind anyone at a ticket machine who is clueless in how to use it or the machine is not working. I waste a lot of time on ticket machines purchasing tickets and I am annoyed when I miss the DART or LUAS because of unnecessary delays. The other thing, I have to keep reminding myself to tag off otherwise I am charge full journey rather than the short hop.

You clearly don't understand the system as currently operates, if you tag on at the side smart card reader you will be charged the full maximum fare no matter where you board or how far you travel. If you want to pay less than full fare you queue up and the driver charges whatever fare you want to your leap card.
That is why there is no tag off on DB, someone suggested a pay by distance travelled model which would require tagging on and off.
The only way a just tag on and the quickest most efficient way is a flat fare across the board.

Cookie_Monster

monument wrote: »

Casual weekend travellers on London buses and the tube manage to buy Oyster cards, so it won't be too hard for our casual weekend travellers to find one of the 700 locations where you can pick up a Leap card. .

with minimum Leap card fare of €10 it's not really useful to someone who may be in the city for one weekend and will only use the bus once or twice.

AlekSmart

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

with minimum Leap card fare of €10 it's not really useful to someone who may be in the city for one weekend and will only use the bus once or twice.

Agreed,I believe that the enthusiastic Leapcard conversions are now exhausted,whether switching from a CIE Smart Product or Purchasing cold.

Notwithstanding the next phase of period pass additions,that 50% Cash Paying rump has not been meaningfully challenged by Leap.

I am currently seeing around a 10-20% daily use of Leap vs Other Pre-Paid modes,which I see as a pretty awful figure.

The Cash Payers I interact with on a daily basis are generally staunchly anti-Leap for a great many reasons from Ignorance to Misinformation-Lack of Information and even worse,mistrust.

Thus far,Leapcard do not appear to be recognising the need for it's core product to be far more Out-There and be seen to be available almost as an afterthought....

The €10 initial spend is now also a valid reason NOT to go Leap in may peoples minds...I would suggest that the NTA needs to deploy some serious marketing muscle before it's too late ?

defrule

In Hong Kong we have Octopus cards that work on any transport and good number of stores. I was there when they still had queues for ticket machines over a decade ago, the Octopus card has completely changed transport and made it so efficient and quick.

My friend marvelled at it because it puts even London's transport to shame.

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would suggest that the NTA needs to deploy some serious marketing muscle before it's too late ?

I don't think the NTA should market Leap until all the functionality has been rolled out and more importantly all the issues with Leap have been fixed on Dublin Bus.

In particular I don't think they should do anything until either flat fares or touch on/touch off is introduced on Dublin Bus and then they can relaunch Leap and market the hell out of it.

munchkin_utd

monument wrote: »

<snip>
As for tourists -- put TVMs with Leap pre-loaded with 1/2/5/7 day tickets at Dublin airport, Dublin port, O'Connel Street, Dame Street, train stations etc. And also sell them in tourists card packs (as Amsterdam etc does) and at tourist offices and hotels etc.
<snip>

what is a "Leap 1 day ticket"
Does it do for bus and train and tram, or just bus and train, or just bus and tram - or does such a thing even exist?

LXFlyer

munchkin_utd wrote: »

what is a "Leap 1 day ticket"
Does it do for bus and train and tram, or just bus and train, or just bus and tram - or does such a thing even exist?

What he is saying is that this is the way forward - it hasn't happened as such yet.

Period passes are only beginning to be loaded onto LEAP, but will start with annual passes.

There isn't a one day ticket that covers all three options, but single mode and bi-mode tickets are available.

All of the following 1 day tickets have been available from ticket outlets or TVMs as appropriate for many years:

Bus only (Adult / Family)
Rail only (Adult / Family)
LUAS only (Adult / Child)
Bus/Rail (Adult / Family)
Bus/Luas (Adult / Child)
Rail/Luas (Adult)