Draft legal series of races? The way forward?

shotgunmcos

Just to split a separate discussion from the starting/cheating thread, just to kick off on another poster's questions below. Also think draft legal races could add more variety. Prep juniors for elite racing. Better racing. Using similar format to ITU to grow the spectators thus participants thus competition thus elites thus success?! Have a proper national series of 8 races that match ITU format and only top 70 ranked athletes race. It would need an overhaul of the points system, or would it?

Quoting mirror matrix on the other thread...

Just out of interest, why do the pros race road bikes in draft legal races, while the AGers race TT bikes with no drafting. I know that this is what ITU rules state, but what is the underlying reason?

Is it a safety issue? This doesn't seem to stack up to me for a number of reasons, the chief one being that there are already plenty of cycling races organised through CI which would have exactly the same issues. Crashes should be no more likely in the bike leg of a tri than in a cycling race.

I've been told in the past that triathletes ride TT bikes in no drafting races because it is a solo sport and drafting benefits one athlete at the expense of another. However, drafting is permitted (and even encouraged) in the swim leg so why not just apply the same rationale to the bike leg and make it draft legal?

I'm just genuinely curious as to why the pro races are a totally different variant of the sport to the AG races? Is this unique to Ireland or is it an ITU wide rule? I would love to see some draft legal races on the TI calendar. I think it would make the races a lot more tactical, as you would need to try to find a pack to work with on the bike leg.

I guess this approach wouldn't make sense in the context of the NS, as it would introduce even more variation between races, but I think it would be cool to have the option of doing this type of race, even if it weren't part of the NS.

mossym

i reckon it would just end up like the itu races, everyone fighting to get into a lead group working together, then waiting for the run to duke it out, turning tri into a battle of the fastest runners. even the strong cyclists will be worried that a group together will be more than they can match

the current system has it's issues, but at least it allows some differentiation among the disciplines

EoghanRooney

I agree that it would be interesting to have some draft legal races, just for the experience, but not NS races, they should be one man against the clock. The best overall athlete takes the prize.

sconhome

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Using similar format to ITU to grow the spectators thus participants thus competition thus elites thus success?! Have a proper national series of 8 races that match ITU format and only top 70 ranked athletes race. It would need an overhaul of the points system, or would it?

^ IMO this is the only way it could be safely done.

Cyclng use a ranking system A1-A4 which works to separate cyclists based on experience and skillset.

With the level and lack of cycling skills evident in so many triathlon races (I'm not an uber cyclist by any stretch of my imagination) I for one would be avoiding unranked draft legal racing.

Thankfully I work on Monday mornings and cant afford to jeopardise that through an accident or injury. Minimise the risks in amateur sport.

tunney

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Just to split a separate discussion from the starting/cheating thread, just to kick off on another poster's questions below. Also think draft legal races could add more variety. Prep juniors for elite racing. Better racing. Using similar format to ITU to grow the spectators thus participants thus competition thus elites thus success?! Have a proper national series of 8 races that match ITU format and only top 70 ranked athletes race. It would need an overhaul of the points system, or would it?

Quoting mirror matrix on the other thread...

Just out of interest, why do the pros race road bikes in draft legal races, while the AGers race TT bikes with no drafting. I know that this is what ITU rules state, but what is the underlying reason?

Is it a safety issue? This doesn't seem to stack up to me for a number of reasons, the chief one being that there are already plenty of cycling races organised through CI which would have exactly the same issues. Crashes should be no more likely in the bike leg of a tri than in a cycling race.

I've been told in the past that triathletes ride TT bikes in no drafting races because it is a solo sport and drafting benefits one athlete at the expense of another. However, drafting is permitted (and even encouraged) in the swim leg so why not just apply the same rationale to the bike leg and make it draft legal?

I'm just genuinely curious as to why the pro races are a totally different variant of the sport to the AG races? Is this unique to Ireland or is it an ITU wide rule? I would love to see some draft legal races on the TI calendar. I think it would make the races a lot more tactical, as you would need to try to find a pack to work with on the bike leg.

I guess this approach wouldn't make sense in the context of the NS, as it would introduce even more variation between races, but I think it would be cool to have the option of doing this type of race, even if it weren't part of the NS.

Olympics.......... Draft illegal racing makes sh1t telly. "Want triathlon in the olympics, make it good for telly".

tunney

I've done a draft legal race in Ireland. Was an AG race but those in were experienced people.

Got in a decent two-up to chase down the first out of the water, moving well. I knew the lad I was with so was happy to sit on his wheel. 40+ kph his wheel got stuck in a slit of a pot hole, he hit the deck, thankfully we were just rotating at the time so I didn't got down. He was well fvcked up though.

Was great fun.

However if it was the standard way of racing and everyone and anyone could do it then I would never ever race again in Ireland. I'm not sitting on someones wheel at 50kph and being expected to trust them completely when they could be some total gobsh1t with no idea of how to ride a bike.

BTH

This is something I have thought about lately as well. While I think draft legal races will obviously take a while to develop in this country, I think it will help the sport in this country a lot if TI were to start encouraging 2 or 3 draft legal races next year. Athlone is an obvious choice, perhaps something based out of grand canal dock and the quays in Dublin and maybe Cork or Belfast for a third for a greater geographical spread. As has been said, these would have to be quite limited fields. ETU and ITU fields seem to be capped at about 60 and anymore than that would be chaos. Running a draft legal race means taking up less room due to multiple laps, and its obviously more spectator friendly. I don't think there is a demand for a draft legal NS alongside the existing system, but I think there would initially be demand for a short series of races.

Interesting to read the brief Q&A that DCT did with a number of the race favourites on facebook in the lead up to the race. They were all asked about drafting and the NS format and I think everyone called for stiffer drafting penalties, a change to the NS system, and a lot mentioned a draft legal series. So there's clearly an appetite for it at the top.

I need to go work on my swimming

tunney

BTH wrote: »

This is something I have thought about lately as well. While I think draft legal races will obviously take a while to develop in this country, I think it will help the sport in this country a lot if TI were to start encouraging 2 or 3 draft legal races next year. Athlone is an obvious choice, perhaps something based out of grand canal dock and the quays in Dublin and maybe Cork or Belfast for a third for a greater geographical spread. As has been said, these would have to be quite limited fields. ETU and ITU fields seem to be capped at about 60 and anymore than that would be chaos. Running a draft legal race means taking up less room due to multiple laps, and its obviously more spectator friendly. I don't think there is a demand for a draft legal NS alongside the existing system, but I think there would initially be demand for a short series of races.

Interesting to read the brief Q&A that DCT did with a number of the race favourites on facebook in the lead up to the race. They were all asked about drafting and the NS format and I think everyone called for stiffer drafting penalties, a change to the NS system, and a lot mentioned a draft legal series. So there's clearly an appetite for it at the top.

I need to go work on my swimming

I can pretty much guarantee that absolutely nothing will change. I think the direction and guidance in TI is gone, completely certainly at an AG level. Junior and Elite I've no idea.

BTH

tunney wrote: »

I can pretty much guarantee that absolutely nothing will change. I think the direction and guidance in TI is gone, completely certainly at an AG level. Junior and Elite I've no idea.

I'm not saying anything is going to change. I'm just giving my opinion, one which is obviously shared with quite a few of the top athletes in the country. Whether this is taken on board by TI, and/or any current or potential race organiser is anyones guess (we know what your guess would be :P ). While there seems like theres some appetite for a draft legal race from athletes, is the same appetite there from the race organisers or TI? Would it affect their insurance? There is a "Regional club development evening" on in Dublin on 3rd September and I'll be asking my clubs representative at the meeting to bring up the subject. I won't be pinning all my hopes on anything happening, but if athletes don't get their opinion across, then everything will stay the same.

RacoonQueen

Aren't draft legal races really just glorified running races?

Peterx

Who is going to organise a race with all the requisite logistics and safety plans and the rest for only 60 entrants?
Unless a major sponsor comes on board it is a massive loss maker of an event unless your 60 "A1" level triathletes are willing to pay a high entry fee.

edit : I see griffin100 has shown how it's feasible - run it before the usual event.

griffin100

tunney wrote: »

I've done a draft legal race in Ireland. Was an AG race but those in were experienced people.

Got in a decent two-up to chase down the first out of the water, moving well. I knew the lad I was with so was happy to sit on his wheel. 40+ kph his wheel got stuck in a slit of a pot hole, he hit the deck, thankfully we were just rotating at the time so I didn't got down. He was well fvcked up though.

Was great fun.

However if it was the standard way of racing and everyone and anyone could do it then I would never ever race again in Ireland. I'm not sitting on someones wheel at 50kph and being expected to trust them completely when they could be some total gobsh1t with no idea of how to ride a bike.

I was at that race and if I remember correctly the draft legal race went off first but we had to wait for it to finish before us plebs could start. Despite the delay it worked well and watching the draft legal race helped pass the time before we could start. It was also on closed roads which helped, I don't think draft legal races on open roads would be a great idea, lines of bikes moving at 50kh+ with traffic on the road is asking for trouble (especially if you have people who aren't used to this type of riding).

peter kern

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Aren't draft legal races really just glorified running races?

alister b would disagree ...
if it was it would be 2nd class white mans running race ...

mirrormatrix

Just to clarify where i'm coming from with this, i'm not trying to criticise the existing format. I do however see draft legal races as something that could complement the existing races on the TI calendar. It is obviously a very different style of racing, involving different preparation and different tactics. Which is why it seems so strange to me that people working their way through the ranks maybe looking to turn pro end up cutting their teeth in a style of racing which is very different to the one in which they are trying to break into.

I don't agree with comments that draft legal races are glorified running races. If we followed that line of thinking then triathlons in their current form are just a glorified duathlon. I do believe the current format of TI racing heavily favours good cyclists. If there's anyone that gets a raw deal out of triathlons its the really good swimmers. They have the shortest comparative amount of time of all three disciplines to make some time. They have to deal with people drafting them the whole way, and with the number curtailed swims they aren't even guaranteed the full distance to build up that gap. I know that in many cases there is not much that can be done about this, but I guess the point i'm making is that to suggest that triathlon as it stands represents an even split between all three disciplines is just not correct.

I can see how there would be concerns over packs in DL races on the bike leg, particularly given you have no idea of the bike handling skills of the people that your cycling with. I don't think though that there would be the same sort of risks as in a cycle race, mainly due to the fact that people will be coming out of the water at different times and the packs would be much smaller as a result.

I would love to see some of the better athletes racing a DL race. If, as Griffin 100 suggested, it was something that went out before the main race, it should be possible to run both events simultaneously with minimal additional disruption?

shotgunmcos

They are not going to change the Olympic format true. I actually like watching the ITU races and having seen one up close was cool too. The coverage is excellent with all the different camera angles. If we had a series like it nationally we wouldn't need Jimmy MacGee and minutes of scenery shots and dodgy music at a time

Do we not want to enhance the sport to get more racing at ITU WS level?

miller82

TOTAL CARNAGE !!

that is all

zico10

I've often thought ITU races would be better events if they were ran as TTs. Leave 1 or 2 minutes between each athlete at the start. That way you'd find the best swimmer/biker/runner on the circuit, without having to enforce a ridiculously hard to enforce no drafting rule.

peter kern

zico10 wrote: »

I've often thought ITU races would be better events if they were ran as TTs. Leave 1 or 2 minutes between each athlete at the start. That way you'd find the best swimmer/biker/runner on the circuit, without having to enforce a ridiculously hard to enforce no drafting rule.

the thing is you would get the best triathlete, but you would miss the tactics and the sport would never make it a TV sport as too long and too boring .
basically you need to look at nordic sking how they have transformed from tt starts to become more tv friendly with formats that are tv friendly ( and the fact that Itu had two speakers from nordic skiing at their last ITU science confernce indicates what they using as a model ) .

ps Zico in a way they have done that with kitzbuhl. which is sharp and crisp , spectacular and exiting in a way the best of both worlds.

rosscollins 1988

peter kern wrote: »

the thing is you would get the best triathlete, but you would miss the tactics and the sport would never make it a TV sport as too long and too boring .
basically you need to look at nordic sking how they have transformed from tt starts to become more tv friendly with formats that are tv friendly ( and the fact that Itu had two speakers from nordic skiing at their last ITU science confernce indicates what they using as a model ) .

ps Zico in a way they have done that with kitzbuhl. which is sharp and crisp , spectacular and exiting in a way the best of both worlds.

Peter you've nearly got the right ideas/format. Instead of nordic skiing, look at Biathlon. Similarly they have altered their formats to be more tv friendly. The pursuit race is excellent to watch.

Basically riders go off individually in a TT start and it is first across the line wins. Your start position is determined by a sprint event (individual tt format) that was held the previous day and time gaps at the beginning of the pursuit are determined from your time gap from the sprint.

Triathlon could and should do the exact same. Have a super sprint on Satturday that is draft illegal. So Alistair wins by 5 seconds from Johnny and Javier is a further 10 seconds back. Then on Sunday Alistair begins first, Johnny 5 seconds later and Javier another 10 seconds behind Johnny. (My distances would be 200m, 8k, 1k.

Bike manufacturers would love it and arguably get more involved sponsorship wise as they are now getting exposure of both their tt and road bikes. Meanwhile Towns/Cities hosting it get a bit more racing to show to the tourists.

Best of all, there would be real tactics in the race. Do you hammer the swim trying to catch the 5 lads ahead of you to get in the lead pack or take it a bit easier and let the 4 fellows just behind you catch you and then form a chase group. With smaller groups on the bike leg there will be an incentive to work together - either to catch the group in front or stay away from the group behind.

At the minute the bike portion is extremely dull most of the time with lads just hammering around incredibly hard in a paceline and they don't really let groups go. Also most of the athletes seem clueless about tactics. Saw an interview after a WTC race (Hamburg?) and Alistair started giving out about his breakaway companions that they were sitting on. Does he not realise that that is the optimum strategy for them? He will run away from them even if they are fresher off the bike. They are not taking their turns because all they want to do is hold off the pack when they are running.

My cure for ITU... you can all thank me in a few years for creating such an exciting sport.

zico10

Fair points you both make, but as far as I am aware the original reason for banning drafting was because at elite level it was an almost impossible rule to adjudicate on fairly. It had nothing to do with trying to make it a more spectator friendly sport.

The best overall triathlete might win draft legal races, but they'd certainly win in a TT. Should that not be the ultimate objective of triathlon?

peter kern

The best overall triathlete might win draft legal races, but they'd certainly win in a TT. Should that not be the ultimate objective of triathlon?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cabu9z9eA1o#t=379

I think what Miss nordan says at 5.50 sums it up nicely what triathlon is those days.