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bumper234

Godge wrote: »

My view of America and Russia isn't solely based on my time there. In fact I had a great time in Russia.

How my time was spent and whether I had enough beer doesn't stop me from reflecting on what I saw there and adding to what I read. There is no doubt that Russia is an oppressive state, homophobic, misogynist and racist with a policy of supporting other oppressive regimes.

The same can EASILY be said of the United States!

Godge wrote: »

America was all of that too, but it has grown significantly as a nation and despite many problems remaining is probably a better place and has a higher moral standing than a country which allowed an Indian woman to die in a rural hospital because we don't do abortions and has refused the moral obligation to share in the defence of its neighbours.

The hypocritical knee-jerk anti-americanism rife in Ireland is unbelieveable.

Oh please America KILLS it's own people! There have been 1,264 prisoners executed in American prisons since 1976. Up to 7000 prisoners a year die in US prisons where gangs are allowed to rule and murder and rape is an everyday occurrence. America regularly bombs innocent men, women and children with impunity and this is in a country who it is not at war with!. Save the morals lecture.

Seaneh

bumper234 wrote: »

What he means is the average American taxpayer lost trillions. The rich folk in power lost feck all and in fact made billions.

The war only happened so that Chaney and the boys could make money hand over fist at the taxpayers expense.

bumper234

Seaneh wrote: »

The war only happened so that Chaney and the boys could make money hand over fist at the taxpayers expense.

Old white Republicans have to stay rich....It's the American way you know

Seaneh

Godge wrote: »

America was all of that too, but it has grown significantly as a nation and despite many problems remaining is probably a better place and has a higher moral standing than a country which allowed an Indian woman to die in a rural hospital because we don't do abortions and has refused the moral obligation to share in the defence of its neighbours.

She died in a large, very well equipped, modern hospital in one of the largest population centre west of the Shannon, in a country with the lowest maternal mortality rate in the world and a health system which everybody in this state has access to.

She wasn't "allowed to die" because we don't do abortions. She died because of sepsis which wasn't diagnosed early enough. She was late term, so even in most countries where abortion IS allowed, she would have been denied an abortion if she requested one.

What happened to that woman was horrible and tragic, and to try and use it as some sort of stick to beat Ireland with, while trying to comparing it with America, a country where 45,000+ people die every year because of lack of access to proper medical care, is disgusting.

And that's without even once mentioning the fact that your little segway has no relevance to the debate on hand.

Godge

esteve wrote: »

America does this also, just as much as Russia. With me saying this, it is not anti-american, it is a fact.

This is another bad argument. America has foreign policy weaknesses, much less than before but the scale of it is much less than Russias. To say that it is "just as much as Russia" is false.

bumper234 wrote: »

The same can EASILY be said of the United States!




Oh please America KILLS it's own people! There have been 1,264 prisoners executed in American prisons since 1976. Up to 7000 prisoners a year die in US prisons where gangs are allowed to rule and murder and rape is an everyday occurrence. America regularly bombs innocent men, women and children with impunity and this is in a country who it is not at war with!. Save the morals lecture.

I do not agree with the death penalty, you have picked on one of the faults of the Americans that I would accept they have. However, they are not alone.

The Chinese execute much more. In their puppet regime in North Korea you can be executed because the President's wife is jealous of your past relationships. At least the Americans have some sort of trial.

The Russians have a moratorium on executions - you go to Siberia instead to die slowly, have a read of some of the information on Russian prisons.

As for the statement that "America regularly bombs innocent men, women and children with impunity", that is simply not true. And it certainly does not do it to its own people like in Chechnya.

The lengths people go and the regimes they defend in order to pursue their anti-american jingoistic positions never fails to amuse me.

bumper234

Godge wrote: »

This is another bad argument. America has foreign policy weaknesses, much less than before but the scale of it is much less than Russias. To say that it is "just as much as Russia" is false.



I do not agree with the death penalty, you have picked on one of the faults of the Americans that I would accept they have. However, they are not alone.

The Chinese execute much more. In their puppet regime in North Korea you can be executed because the President's wife is jealous of your past relationships. At least the Americans have some sort of trial.

The Russians have a moratorium on executions - you go to Siberia instead to die slowly, have a read of some of the information on Russian prisons.

As for the statement that "America regularly bombs innocent men, women and children with impunity", that is simply not true. And it certainly does not do it to its own people like in Chechnya.

The lengths people go and the regimes they defend in order to pursue their anti-american jingoistic positions never fails to amuse me.

4 Americans killed in drone strikes

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/eric-holder-americans-killed-drones/story?id=19236300

Plenty of drone strikes here. Suspected militants but no proof. That seems like bombing with impunity to me.


https://twitter.com/dronestream

esteve

Godge wrote: »

This is another bad argument. America has foreign policy weaknesses, much less than before but the scale of it is much less than Russias. To say that it is "just as much as Russia" is false.

Im afraid its not a bad arguement. I already gave one example, i.e. their implicit involvement in the genocide of nearly one million East Timorese. America has a huge list of such atrocities, as does Russia, but to say that the US has a better foeign policy than Russia in this regard is based on nothing except your own desire for it to be so.

Cork boy 55

esteve wrote: »

Im afraid its not a bad arguement. I already gave one example, i.e. their implicit involvement in the genocide of nearly one million East Timorese. America has a huge list of such atrocities, as does Russia, but to say that the US has a better foeign policy than Russia in this regard is based on nothing except your own desire for it to be so.

A million dead in East Timor where are you getting that from?!?
there's not even a million people there
That's not what the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor says

The Commission estimates that the minimum-bound for the number of conflict-related
deaths during the Commission's reference period, 1974 to 1999, is 102,800 (+/- 12,000). This
estimate is derived from (i) an estimate of 18,600 total killings (+/- 1000) using multiple systems
estimation (MSE) techniques and (ii) an estimate of 84,200 (+/- 11,000) deaths due to hunger and
illness which exceed the total that would be expected if the death rate due to hunger and illness
had continued as it was in the pre-invasion peacetime period.

http://www.cavr-timorleste.org/en/chegaReport.htm

Also those killings where by Indonesians, the annexation of east timor
was welcomed seen at the time all over the world as a de-colonization effort same as Indians kicking the Portuguese out of Goa
including large tracts of the "left"

O BTW the communist democide outways by a order of magnitude any democide committed by USA allies during the cold war There is no comparison.

Jonny7

bumper234 wrote: »

4 Americans killed in drone strikes

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/eric-holder-americans-killed-drones/story?id=19236300

Plenty of drone strikes here. Suspected militants but no proof. That seems like bombing with impunity to me.

It's a contentious issue alright. How does the world deal with people like those who blew up the twin towers, or bombed London, or killed 400 people in a school.

Generally speaking, the government classes them as dangerous enemy combatants - which they often are. They can't exactly send along the cops with a pair of handcuffs to pick up these guys. Likewise they often don't fancy sacrificing the lives of their own security forces to pick them up either.

So what we're left with is a grey area. The US uses drones to take them out, Russia uses special forces, the ISI welcomes them with tea and biscuits and so on.

Idealistically it's not the best way to deal with it, nor is it the best moral/legal/fair way of dealing with the issue - however it's probably the most realistic solution to a very real modern problem.

esteve

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

A million dead in East Timor where are you getting that from?!?
there's not even a million people there
That's not what the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor says

http://www.cavr-timorleste.org/en/chegaReport.htm

Also those killings where by Indonesians the annexation of east timor
was welcomed by the Seen at the time all over the world as a de-colonization effort same as Indians kicking the Portuguese out of Goa
inclduing the "left"

O TBW the communist democide outways by a order of magnitude any democide committed by USA allies during the cold war There is no comparison.

You are right, I made a mistake, I am sorry, I was getting my genocides supported by the US confused. In East Timor approx 200,000 were killed, more or less a quarter of their population. It is a shocking number, something that the small nation has never recovered from.

The figure of a million I refer to relates to a connected incident that precedes East Timor but led the way for it to happen, again involving Indonesia and Suharto, with the full backing and involvement of the US. It is the little known Indonesia killings of 1965-1966, also known as a purge, or could be called a genocide if you so please, ether way approx 1 million Indonesians were slaughtered due to their political beliefs. The US could not let these people ever be in power, so they helped annihilate them


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366


There is this fascinating film where Generals who were involved in this massacre, reenact some of their mass killings.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2375605/?ref_=sr_1

esteve

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Also those killings where by Indonesians, the annexation of east timor
was welcomed seen at the time all over the world as a de-colonization effort same as Indians kicking the Portuguese out of Goa
including large tracts of the "left"

Wow, just wow. East Timor was occupied illegally by Indonesia. After Portugues rule fell, it had a one year civil war and then became an Idependent state. A couple years later Indonesia invaded, with the full support of the UK and US, and 25% of its population were killed. This is a fact, it was not welcomed by any sane person, only by those who gained from it. Even nowadays, for the majority, the true story of the poor people from East Timor, is not known, or has been warped and twisted.

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

It's a contentious issue alright. How does the world deal with people like those who blew up the twin towers, or bombed London, or killed 400 people in a school.

Generally speaking, the government classes them as dangerous enemy combatants - which they often are. They can't exactly send along the cops with a pair of handcuffs to pick up these guys. Likewise they often don't fancy sacrificing the lives of their own security forces to pick them up either.

Hold on a minute America considers ALL military aged men as enemy combatants!

Jonny7 wrote: »

So what we're left with is a grey area. The US uses drones to take them out, Russia uses special forces, the ISI welcomes them with tea and biscuits and so on.

Idealistically it's not the best way to deal with it, nor is it the best moral/legal/fair way of dealing with the issue - however it's probably the most realistic solution to a very real modern problem.

So you say it's ok for America to kill someone in a foreign country with a drone strike if they SUSPECT that person to be a militant?

Cork boy 55

esteve wrote: »

Wow, just wow. East Timor was occupied illegally by Indonesia. After Portugues rule fell, it had a one year civil war and then became an Idependent state. A couple years later Indonesia invaded, with the full support of the UK and US, and 25% of its population were killed. This is a fact, it was not welcomed by any sane person, only by those who gained from it. Even nowadays, for the majority, the true story of the poor people from East Timor, is not known, or has been warped and twisted.

I am not saying it was right I am saying how it was perceived internationally
East Timor declared itself independent from Portugal on 28 November 1975, but was invaded by neighboring Indonesia nine days later.

esteve

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

I am not saying it was right I am saying how it was perceived internationally
East Timor declared itself independent from Portugal on 28 November 1975, but was invaded by neighboring Indonesia nine days later.

Okay, nine days, one year, does it really matter?!. It was not perceived as such internationally, it was perceived as genocide as thats exactly what it was.

Cork boy 55

esteve wrote: »

You are right, I made a mistake, I am sorry, I was getting my genocides supported by the US confused. In East Timor approx 200,000 were killed, more or less a quarter of their population. It is a shocking number, something that the small nation has never recovered from.

The figure of a million I refer to relates to a connected incident that precedes East Timor but led the way for it to happen, again involving Indonesia and Suharto, with the full backing and involvement of the US. It is the little known Indonesia killings of 1965-1966, also known as a purge, or could be called a genocide if you so please, ether way approx 1 million Indonesians were slaughtered due to their political beliefs. The US could not let these people ever be in power, so they helped annihilate them


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366


There is this fascinating film where Generals who were involved in this massacre, reenact some of their mass killings.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2375605/?ref_=sr_1

500,000(patriotic campaign) + 100,000(east timor) = 600,000

Most of those 500,000~ liquidated by the Indonesian people in the patriotic campaign where PKI communist operatives and cadres
PKI = The Communist Party of Indonesia

Considering historical Communist behavior in power, good riddance.

its a great shame for humanity the Russian and Chinese people failed to exterminate and crush the Bolsheviks and Maoists before they acquired power.

HOW MANY PEOPLE DID
COMMUNIST REGIMES MURDER?*

By R.J. Rummel

Communism has been the greatest social engineering experiment we have ever seen. It failed utterly and in doing so it killed over 100,000,000 men, women, and children, not to mention the near 30,000,000 of its subjects that died in its often aggressive wars and the rebellions it provoked. But there is a larger lesson to be learned from this horrendous sacrifice to one ideology. That is that no one can be trusted with power. The more power the center has to impose the beliefs of an ideological or religious elite or impose the whims of a dictator, the more likely human lives are to be sacrificed. This is but one reason, but perhaps the most important one, for fostering liberal democracy.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

esteve

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

500,000(patriotic campaign) + 100,000(east timor) = 600,000

The approximate figure is 1 million. I cant believe you refer to genocide as a patriotoic campaign, thats pretty sick and psychotic.

The figure in East Timor including starvations is approx 200,000

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Most of those 500,000~ liquidated by the Indonesian people in the patriotic campaign where PKI communist operatives and cadres
PKI = The Communist Party of Indonesia

Considering historical Communist behavior in power, good riddance.

Are you actually endorsing genocide? Im kind of in shock here. This was genocide, pure and simple, and you say good riddance to those people who were massacred because they supported a political party. The genocide went way beyond killing just official party members. It is an awful part of history that you are somehow stating was a good thing. I just dont know what to say to this.

Jonny7

bumper234 wrote: »

Hold on a minute America considers ALL military aged men as enemy combatants!

The definition keeps changing, esp since 911, I can barely keep up with it

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2009/March/09-ag-232.html

It's just a legal icing on the cake so that whatever country can kill bad guys that it deems are a threat to the country (pretty broad definition there)

So you say it's ok for America to kill someone in a foreign country with a drone strike if they SUSPECT that person to be a militant?

It's very debatable. On the one hand they are seriously infringing the human rights of that person - on the other, if they have credible substantiated information that said person is about to undertake an attack to kill 100 people...

It's the age-old question, what do they do?

In the absense of being able to capture and try - like I said before.. reality generally wins - they just kill them.

When I say they, I am not uniquely referring to the US government either.. plenty of governments act in the same way, they generally just do it in a more low-tech fashion.

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

The definition keeps changing, esp since 911, I can barely keep up with it

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2009/March/09-ag-232.html

It's just a legal icing on the cake so that whatever country can kill bad guys that it deems are a threat to the country (pretty broad definition there)




It's very debatable. On the one hand they are seriously infringing the human rights of that person - on the other, if they have credible substantiated information that said person is about to undertake an attack to kill 100 people...

It's the age-old question, what do they do?

In the absense of being able to capture and try - like I said before.. reality generally wins - they just kill them.

When I say they, I am not uniquely referring to the US government either.. plenty of governments act in the same way, they generally just do it in a more low-tech fashion.

And this is ok with you? You preach about human rights in Syria and then say it's ok for the US to sweep human rights aside?

Jonny7

bumper234 wrote: »

And this is ok with you? You preach about human rights in Syria and then say it's ok for the US to sweep human rights aside?

You are trying to compare apples and oranges

The government is responsible for the safety of it's citizens not the other way round.

If you join an extremist group and are intent on bombing and killing a lot of people - you'll quickly find that most governments respect the human rights of those potential victims a lot quicker than they will respect yours.

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

You are trying to compare apples and oranges

The government is responsible for the safety of it's citizens not the other way round.

If you join an extremist group and are intent on bombing and killing a lot of people - you'll quickly find that most governments respect the human rights of those potential victims a lot quicker than they will respect yours.

Totally agree but where is the proof that all of the people killed in these drone strikes (and the secondary strikes that usually follow) were members of any extremist groups?

Now tell me this, how many of these suspected insurgents were innocent? 5% ? 25% 50? How many innocent people are being killed by America in it's attempts to stop innocent people getting killed?

Godge

esteve wrote: »

You are right, I made a mistake, I am sorry, I was getting my genocides supported by the US confused. In East Timor approx 200,000 were killed, more or less a quarter of their population. It is a shocking number, something that the small nation has never recovered from.

The figure of a million I refer to relates to a connected incident that precedes East Timor but led the way for it to happen, again involving Indonesia and Suharto, with the full backing and involvement of the US. It is the little known Indonesia killings of 1965-1966, also known as a purge, or could be called a genocide if you so please, ether way approx 1 million Indonesians were slaughtered due to their political beliefs. The US could not let these people ever be in power, so they helped annihilate them


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366


There is this fascinating film where Generals who were involved in this massacre, reenact some of their mass killings.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2375605/?ref_=sr_1

Yes, but both of these incidents were in the distant past when the world was a different place.

Chechnya is not in the distant past.

Jonny7

bumper234 wrote: »

Totally agree but where is the proof that all of the people killed in these drone strikes (and the secondary strikes that usually follow) were members of any extremist groups?

Chances are if you join one of these Pashtun miltia's, you are going to find that the Pakistani army will be very quickly shooting at you - not asking for "proof". Of course if you become a commander, you might yourself targeted by US drones.

The average person in Waziristan is a lot more likely to be killed by these militia's or have a bomb strapped to them by the local Taliban - than ever killed by a drone. However that isn't much recourse for those that are.

Now tell me this, how many of these suspected insurgents were innocent? 5% ? 25% 50? How many innocent people are being killed by America in it's attempts to stop innocent people getting killed?

I would say 0% of the thousands of Pakistanis they kill every year are guilty of anything but being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Sadly they haven't found a way of fighting these groups without, in the process, also killing other innocents. It's a kind of grim trade off, not one I particularly support at all.

They haven't constructed a working time machine either which can go back and reverse Cold War policies that helped **** up most of these countries in the first place.

An idealistic situation would of course be to capture and try each person in a court of law - but that doesn't work in the field.

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

Chances are if you join one of these Pashtun miltia's, you are going to find that the Pakistani army will be very quickly shooting at you - not asking for "proof". Of course if you become a commander, you might yourself targeted by US drones.

The average person in Waziristan is a lot more likely to be killed by these militia's or have a bomb strapped to them by the local Taliban - than ever killed by a drone. However that isn't much recourse for those that are.




I would say 0% of the thousands of Pakistanis they kill every year are guilty of anything but being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Sadly they haven't found a way of fighting these groups without, in the process, also killing other innocents. It's a kind of grim trade off, not one I particularly support at all.

They haven't constructed a working time machine either which can go back and reverse Cold War policies that helped **** up most of these countries in the first place.

An idealistic situation would of course be to capture and try each person in a court of law - but that doesn't work in the field.

So basically bomb them to oblivion and never mind the innocents. But if someone else does it the US gets on it's high horse and says you can't do that. Ok gotcha now

Jonny7

bumper234 wrote: »

So basically bomb them to oblivion and never mind the innocents. But if someone else does it the US gets on it's high horse and says you can't do that. Ok gotcha now

So basically miss the point and embellish what was said.. incorrectly. Gotcha

bumper234

Jonny7 wrote: »

So basically miss the point and embellish what was said.. incorrectly. Gotcha

No because that's exactly what's happening!

esteve

Godge wrote: »

Yes, but both of these incidents were in the distant past when the world was a different place.

Chechnya is not in the distant past.

Its not the so distant past, and i can give you more recent examples if you so please.

K-9

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

500,000(patriotic campaign) + 100,000(east timor) = 600,000

Most of those 500,000~ liquidated by the Indonesian people in the patriotic campaign where PKI communist operatives and cadres
PKI = The Communist Party of Indonesia

Considering historical Communist behavior in power, good riddance.

its a great shame for humanity the Russian and Chinese people failed to exterminate and crush the Bolsheviks and Maoists before they acquired power.

HOW MANY PEOPLE DID
COMMUNIST REGIMES MURDER?*

By R.J. Rummel

[IMG][/img]http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.TAB1.GIF




http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

Mod:
From the Charter:

Please note that any post deemed to incite hatred or promote violence will be dealt with in the strictest possible manner. Whatever your politics we expect discussion in a manner fit for adults, but first and foremost human beings.
Celebration/promotion/triumphing of murder, violence or aggression will result in an immediate banning from the forum and deletion of your posts.

Poster Banned.

Eggy Baby!

Everytime Assad commits another war crime, some people shout "but what about the US" while others frankly could care less as long as it doesn't impact their quiet middle class existence too much.

And in the meantime you are fighting on the ground with the FSA to liberate Syria against secular evil Assad? Jesus christ get the chip off your shoulder.

America was all of that too, but it has grown significantly as a nation and despite many problems remaining is probably a better place and has a higher moral standing than....Ireland

America has a higher moral standing than Ireland? Mother of god, the fail!

AlekSmart

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

And in the meantime you are fighting on the ground with the FSA to liberate Syria against secular evil Assad? Jesus christ get the chip off your shoulder.

America has a higher moral standing than Ireland? Mother of god, the fail!

Well.with regard to the Fighting on the ground,as they might say in the Courts of Justice..."We do have precedent...."

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books-arts/the-dubliner-who-fought-gadaffi-29559950.html

Today Libya,Tomorrow....??????

Eggy Baby!

I just think it ridiculous that the pro-interventionists are now, having run out of ammunition for their indefensible position, resorting to using the pejorative term "anti-American" to describe anti-interventionist opinion. The thread is starting to fill up with russophobes and warhawks, and it's drifting off topic very frequently.

Hell, two minutes ago a guy was praising the massacre of hundreds of thousands of communists in Indonesia, for some reason. Before that, people were praising America for "winning" WW2, thus starting off topic debates about the Eastern Front. Other people are using the thread as a platform for their russophobic opinions, complaining about the state of the media in Russia.

*sigh* Anyway, there has been a nice compromise on the conflict in Geneva. Especially noteworthy was John Kerry's turnaround. According to Kerry, Russia and America have from the beginning, apparently stated that a military solution to the conflict is unfeasible. Sky News, as usual, showed Kerry's speech in Geneva but not Lavrov's: I had to go to evil, omniscient RT to find that soundbite. Ostensibly Sky News could not find an interpreter in time (not).

The changing nature of America's position just shows that they lack the spine and principle necessary to succeed in international politics: simple as.

Secondly, the USA has not destroyed it's chemical weapons stockpile by the issued deadline in accordance with the CWC. Neither has Russia or Libya.

realweirdo

bumper234 wrote: »

So basically bomb them to oblivion and never mind the innocents. But if someone else does it the US gets on it's high horse and says you can't do that. Ok gotcha now

You do realise that most of these targets use their own family members as human shields in the hope it prevents drone attacks?

You also realise that most of the targets are extremely nasty people who plan attacks against innocent civilians in the west? They are the type of AQ people who you say you abhor and yet when the West takes them out, you change tack again. You don't really feel sorry for the victims of drone attacks do you. You just use drone attacks as another stick to beat the west with, like all anti americans.

Clearly you think AQ should be allowed get on with their business of planning terrorists attacks?

You condemn alleged american support for AQ among the opposition in Syria, and yet you condemn when america attacks AQ as well. I suppose trying to get a logical consistant position is pointless from you or most anti americans. You just keep vacillating.

Like most anti Americans, you are completely and absolutely irrational....and you have an irrational and unlimited hatred of America and I suppose the west in general.

Which begs the ultimate question, if you hate the west, why do you still live here?

Admit it, America and the West is a lot better than many of the undemocratic sh*tholes around the world that people like you idolise.

realweirdo

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

I just think it ridiculous that the pro-interventionists are now, having run out of ammunition for their indefensible position, resorting to using the pejorative term "anti-American" to describe anti-interventionist opinion. The thread is starting to fill up with russophobes and warhawks, and it's drifting off topic very frequently.

Hell, two minutes ago a guy was praising the massacre of hundreds of thousands of communists in Indonesia, for some reason. Before that, people were praising America for "winning" WW2, thus starting off topic debates about the Eastern Front. Other people are using the thread as a platform for their russophobic opinions, complaining about the state of the media in Russia.

*sigh* Anyway, there has been a nice compromise on the conflict in Geneva. Especially noteworthy was John Kerry's turnaround. According to Kerry, Russia and America have from the beginning, apparently stated that a military solution to the conflict is unfeasible. Sky News, as usual, showed Kerry's speech in Geneva but not Lavrov's: I had to go to evil, omniscient RT to find that soundbite. Ostensibly Sky News could not find an interpreter in time (not).

The changing nature of America's position just shows that they lack the spine and principle necessary to succeed in international politics: simple as.

Secondly, the USA has not destroyed it's chemical weapons stockpile by the issued deadline in accordance with the CWC. Neither has Russia or Libya.

Is this some kind of joke post?

For two and half years there was every possible attempt made at diplomacy. It didn't work. Assad said he was going nowhere. Russia said Assad was going nowhere, end of story for them. The Russians and Syrians said from day one, Assad leaving power was off the table.

There were very moderate resolutions brought to the UNSC over the question of allowing humanitarian aid into Syria to treat refugees and civilian victims of war. Russia vetoed those resolutions.

From day one, Russia has been the main obstruction to a peacefully negotiated solution, not America.

Finally, America shows up on the doorstep of Syria with cruise missiles and suddenly Russia and Syria become the most peace loving nations on earth.

You're having a laugh with posts like that.

realweirdo

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well.with regard to the Fighting on the ground,as they might say in the Courts of Justice..."We do have precedent...."

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books-arts/the-dubliner-who-fought-gadaffi-29559950.html

Today Libya,Tomorrow....??????

Tomorrow any mass mudering genocidal maniac who wants to kill hundreds of thousands of his people and displace at least 5 million. Seriously, you think people like that should be allowed do as they please?

International law has become an absolute joke. As it stands it is perfectly lawful for Assad to kill as many of his own people he wants using conventional means.

On the otherhand it is against international law for outside countries to intervene to prevent him doing that without UNSC support, which is not going to happen.

This is how perverse international law is and how it has been exploited by Assad to continue his massacring. The legal rights experts and anti-interventionists might sleep well at night just so long as international law isn't broken. It's not much help to the victims of Assad's atrocities.

realweirdo

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

And in the meantime you are fighting on the ground with the FSA to liberate Syria against secular evil Assad? Jesus christ get the chip off your shoulder.



America has a higher moral standing than Ireland? Mother of god, the fail!

I am fighting on the ground? what are you raving about man?

As for your second comment, I'm not sure who you are aiming that at. Ireland had a disastrous moral standing in the twentieth century, probably as bad as America's, whose own moral standing wasn't great.

When Hitler died and the rest of the world was celebrating the end of WW2, De Valera was opening a book of condolences to the German people, to give one example.

Few nations came out of the twentieth century with any great credit, Ireland included.

bumper234

realweirdo wrote: »

You do realise that most of these targets use their own family members as human shields in the hope it prevents drone attacks?

You also realise that most of the targets are extremely nasty people who plan attacks against innocent civilians in the west? They are the type of AQ people who you say you abhor and yet when the West takes them out, you change tack again. You don't really feel sorry for the victims of drone attacks do you. You just use drone attacks as another stick to beat the west with, like all anti americans.

Clearly you think AQ should be allowed get on with their business of planning terrorists attacks?

You condemn alleged american support for AQ among the opposition in Syria, and yet you condemn when america attacks AQ as well. I suppose trying to get a logical consistant position is pointless from you or most anti americans. You just keep vacillating.

Like most anti Americans, you are completely and absolutely irrational....and you have an irrational and unlimited hatred of America and I suppose the west in general.

Which begs the ultimate question, if you hate the west, why do you still live here?

Admit it, America and the West is a lot better than many of the undemocratic sh*tholes around the world that people like you idolise.

I don't hate America or the American people or the west in general and i have spent a.lot of time there on business. I do dislike America's foreign policies and i abhor the fact that they kill innocent people with impunity. If you want to bang your pro America pro war drum then beat away.

clairefontaine

I have arrived at the conclusion there is no solution to this, political or military.

It's a civil war that has to rise itself out.

If we, the US really wanted to help we would expedite refugee status like we do for the Cubans. But we are not doing that. I just appears to me that Obama supports the Muslim brotherhood.

realweirdo

bumper234 wrote: »

I don't hate America or the American people or the west in general and i have spent a.lot of time there on business. I do dislike America's foreign policies and i abhor the fact that they kill innocent people with impunity. If you want to bang your pro America pro war drum then beat away.

That's fair enough. However, North Korea kill innocent people with impunity, as does China, Russia, and many other countries. They are just as bad as America in most cases. However, we rarely see around here post after post condemning the human rights abuses of these countries which are pretty bad. You'd honestly think America was the only country who kills innocent people. In any case, innocent people have always got killed during wars.

realweirdo

clairefontaine wrote: »

I have arrived at the conclusion there is no solution to this, political or military.

It's a civil war that has to rise itself out.

If we, the US really wanted to help we would expedite refugee status like we do for the Cubans. But we are not doing that. I just appears to me that Obama supports the Muslim brotherhood.

The most likely solution is the credible threat of military action.
For over two years Assad acted with impunity and without fear.
The Americans show up with a credible threat of military action and voila he's handing over his chemical weapons.
Most rational people agree both the Assad side and the opposition need to sit down face to face and hammer out a solution to this.
At the moment Assad holds power in Syria so he has to make the first move. However he has pretty much said from day one he is not leaving power, ever. It's hard not to see this conflict dragging on indefinitely, with the Americans portrayed as the bad guys and the Russians as the good guys. The rebels are receiving weapons but nowhere near the amount Assad has been receivinig on a daily basis. So long as weapons are pouring in to all sides, this conflict will continue. I don't see the Iranians or Russians ceasing arms to Assad in the near term. They see this conflict as part of a war against Suadi Arabia and America as anything else.

bumper234

realweirdo wrote: »

That's fair enough. However, North Korea kill innocent people with impunity, as does China, Russia, and many other countries. They are just as bad as America in most cases. However, we rarely see around here post after post condemning the human rights abuses of these countries which are pretty bad. You'd honestly think America was the only country who kills innocent people. In any case, innocent people have always got killed during wars.

North Korea, Russia, China are 3 countries who don't preach to others about human rights abuses and then go out and deny others their human rights. None of those countries say lets bomb Syria, Iran North Korea because they have Nukes and chemical weapons but lets leave Israel alone even though they have CW and nukes.

realweirdo

bumper234 wrote: »

North Korea, Russia, China are 3 countries who don't preach to others about human rights abuses and then go out and deny others their human rights. None of those countries say lets bomb Syria, Iran North Korea because they have Nukes and chemical weapons but lets leave Israel alone even though they have CW and nukes.

Do you not watch the news? You can watch RT for these ones.
For the last two and a half years, Putin has been preaching around the clock about how America causes trouble in the middle east, how their record is bad, human rights abuses blah blah blah. I'd imagine it's the same in China. Hugo Chavez had his own show denouncing all things American. Press TV condemns American human rights abuses around the clock. As does Cuba. As does North Korea.

So what you are saying is simply not true. Every one of these countries preaches about human rights abuses and yet are just as bad and worse themselves. North Korea has concentration camps ffs.

bumper234

realweirdo wrote: »

Do you not watch the news? You can watch RT for these ones.
For the last two and a half years, Putin has been preaching around the clock about how America cause trouble in the middle east, how their record is bad, human rights abuses blah blah blah. I'd imagine it's the same in China. Hugo Chavez had his own show denouncing all things American. Press TV condemns American human rights abuses around the clock. As does Cuba. As does North Korea.

So what you are saying is simply not true. Every one of these countries preaches about human rights abuses and yet are just as bad themselves.

Are you not the guy who said RT is not a credible news source? Now it is? As for Putin preaching about America's record in the middle east.....it's pretty much spot on. Years of war many thousands dead (most of them innocent civilians) all because America wants to control the oil fields and ensure the petrodollar stays strong.

Eggy Baby!

Ireland had a disastrous moral standing in the twentieth century, probably as bad as America's, whose own moral standing wasn't great. When Hitler died and the rest of the world was celebrating the end of WW2, De Valera was opening a book of condolences to the German people, to give one example.

Wow...you are incredibly naive.

So De Valera signing Hitler's book of condolences is as bad as the sum total of American imperialism? Read up on the Phillippines, the Mexican-American wars, the Spanish American wars.

Do you have any idea about history? God what a stupid statement.

Which begs the ultimate question, if you hate the west, why do you still live here?

Where I live and why I live there is none of your bloody business. And I think Ireland is the greatest country on earth so I don't hate the west.

I am fighting on the ground? what are you raving about man?

You said of non-interventionists that it's easy to have their position while they live comfy in their middle class existence while you are hardly an FSA fighter yourself.

From day one, Russia has been the main obstruction to a peacefully negotiated solution, not America.

It has been the main obstruction to poorly-planned interventions.

Like most anti Americans, you are completely and absolutely irrational....and you have an irrational and unlimited hatred of America and I suppose the west in general.

Are you going to contribute to the debate or are you just going to continue being a hilariously pro-American shrill? I mean, come on. You actually said "Thank god for the USA" at one point, before telling people to leave the west, if they hate it so much. Nobody takes you seriously here, buddy. At this point I'm beginning to log on just to see what ridiculous statement you are going to make next.

You remind me of plasmaguy, a person who thankfully stopped posting here long ago. All he did was tell people to go to North Korea if they even had slight beefs with US foreign policy.

Your defence of drone strikes earlier in the thread is especially sickening. First we got a guy saying that it was alright to kill 500,000 communists, next we have a guy who hates Assad for killing civilians but defends drone strikes (hell, even the UNHRC issued a report condemning them) that kill more civilians than militants.

realweirdo

bumper234 wrote: »

Are you not the guy who said RT is not a credible news source? Now it is? As for Putin preaching about America's record in the middle east.....it's pretty much spot on. Years of war many thousands dead (most of them innocent civilians) all because America wants to control the oil fields and ensure the petrodollar stays strong.

This is getting farcical, actually you are getting farcical. One minute you are saying Putin never preaches about human rights and now you are saying yes he does preach about human rights abuses. You're making it up as you go along and it's hard to take anything you say seriously. A tip, try to stay consistant, people will take you more seriously that way.

bumper234

realweirdo wrote: »

This is getting farcical, actually you are getting farcical. One minute you are saying Putin never preaches about human rights and now you are saying yes he does preach about human rights abuses. You're making it up as you go along and it's hard to take anything you say seriously. A tip, try to stay consistant, people will take you more seriously that way.

No you are saying he preaches i don't watch RT or any of the other channels about countries you mentioned. All i know is when i turn on the TV i am hammered with US propaganda about how they are trying to make the world safer by starting wars. How they are protecting me by spying on me. How they are stopping innocent civilians being killed by killing innocent civilians. You can keep trying to defend them all you like but people eyes are opening to the agenda America has.

realweirdo

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Wow...you are incredibly naive.

So De Valera signing Hitler's book of condolences is as bad as the sum total of American imperialism? Read up on the Phillippines, the Mexican-American wars, the Spanish American wars.

Convienently ignore the fact that America confronted and helped defeat three of the great evils of the 20th century Nazi Germany, Emperial Japan and the USSR. (Ireland stayed neutral). Ignore the fact that but for the US, South Korea would be a communist run sh*thole like North Korea. Ignore the fact that America is the biggest provider of humanitarian assistance in the world by far. Ignore the fact that America is about the only nation confronting Islamic terrorism, yes in a war where there is collatoral damage, but the alternative is to allow the spread of Islamofascism unchecked. It really is a case of either or in this situation. Ignore the fact that America sent the Taliban packing from large parts of Afghanistan.

And basically ignore every good deed America has ever done in its history.

You don't do balance do you?

clairefontaine

realweirdo wrote: »

Convienently ignore the fact that America confronted and helped defeat three of the great evils of the 20th century Nazi Germany, Emperial Japan and the USSR. (Ireland stayed neutral). Ignore the fact that but for the US, South Korea would be a communist run sh*thole like North Korea. Ignore the fact that America is the biggest provider of humanitarian assistance in the world by far. Ignore the fact that America is about the only nation confronting Islamic terrorism, yes in a war where there is collatoral damage, but the alternative is to allow the spread of Islamofascism unchecked. It really is a case of either or in this situation. Ignore the fact that America sent the Taliban packing from large parts of Afghanistan.

And basically ignore every good deed America has ever done in its history.

You don't do balance do you?

Yes and no. You are right but we are also fighting Saudis war by proxy (Bush 1 et all )and it appears to me that Obama supports the Muslim brotherhood.

bumper234

realweirdo wrote: »

Convienently ignore the fact that America confronted and helped defeat three of the great evils of the 20th century Nazi Germany, Emperial Japan and the USSR. (Ireland stayed neutral). Ignore the fact that but for the US, South Korea would be a communist run sh*thole like North Korea. Ignore the fact that America is the biggest provider of humanitarian assistance in the world by far. Ignore the fact that America is about the only nation confronting Islamic terrorism, yes in a war where there is collatoral damage, but the alternative is to allow the spread of Islamofascism unchecked. It really is a case of either or in this situation. Ignore the fact that America sent the Taliban packing from large parts of Afghanistan.

And basically ignore every good deed America has ever done in its history.

You don't do balance do you?

America joined WW2 at the end they did not confront the Nazi's

Japan's bombing of pearl harbour was over oil (pretty much like Amerca's actions these days) and they paid for it by getting nuked twice (a more evil act in most peoples books).

America did not "confront" Russia it got into an arms war with it. It still fights wars with Russia by proxy (Syria these days)

Ireland stayed neutral as did Switzerland....so what?

America is confronting Islamic terrorism that America helped to create. America bankrolled the Taliban in Afghanistan and sent the CIA to train them. America used 9-11 as an excuse to invade Afghanistan and Iraq yet most of the 9-11 bombers were from Saudi Arabia (friends of the US)

America has not gotten rid of the Taliban and of anything by bombing innocent civilians it has ensured that the Taliban will have a ready supply of volunteers for many decades to come.

realweirdo

clairefontaine wrote: »

Yes and no. You are right but we are also fighting Saudis war by proxy (Bush 1 et all )and it appears to me that Obama supports the Muslim brotherhood.

Not really. He supports democracy. The Egyption people had a democratic election, the Muslim Brotherhood were elected to power, that should have been the end of the matter. A lot of people in Egypt were unhappy that reforms weren't happening fast enough and the army took that as a cue to carry out a coup.

realweirdo

bumper234 wrote: »

America joined WW2 at the end they did not confront the Nazi's

Japan's bombing of pearl harbour was over oil (pretty much like Amerca's actions these days) and they paid for it by getting nuked twice (a more evil act in most peoples books).

America did not "confront" Russia it got into an arms war with it. It still fights wars with Russia by proxy (Syria these days)

Ireland stayed neutral as did Switzerland....so what?

America is confronting Islamic terrorism that America helped to create. America bankrolled the Taliban in Afghanistan and sent the CIA to train them. America used 9-11 as an excuse to invade Afghanistan and Iraq yet most of the 9-11 bombers were from Saudi Arabia (friends of the US)

America has not gotten rid of the Taliban and of anything by bombing innocent civilians it has ensured that the Taliban will have a ready supply of volunteers for many decades to come.

The war on terror is a a complex one which demands a complex debate...it can't be settled by the usual 'America bad, everyone else good' arguments that go on around here. If I thought anyone was interested in that complex debate I'd gladly take part. The main point of the debate is that the Taliban and AQ are against democracy and most forms of human rights for individuals. Yes there is collatoral damage confronting them, but allowing them spread their poisonous philosophy is just not an option. I think even you would agree with that.

America joined WW2 at the end of '41. Roosevelt was probably keen to join earlier but there was a very vocal anti-interventionist lobby in the states who prevented him acting. The vocal ant-interventionists have their descendents today who say things like "we shouldn't get involved, there's nothing in it for us, not our problem and so on."

America did confront Russia as much as possible. Cuban missible crisis an example, but yes much of it was proxy conflicts to try to prevent the spread of communism, something clearly you think would have been ok. You also think that Russia is a knight in shining armour in the world. I would love to see you condemnn Russia and before it the USSRs appalling human rights record...they ruled half of Europe with local dictators.

The Japanese Empire was a genocidal state, just ask the Chinese. No-one cares if they were about to run out of oil or not. The best thing that ever happened was that Empire was consigned to the dust bin of history.

This thread has got boring with the usual monotonous anti american foreign policy types on it. They never say anything new.

clairefontaine

realweirdo wrote: »

Not really. He supports democracy. The Egyption people had a democratic election, the Muslim Brotherhood were elected to power, that should have been the end of the matter. A lot of people in Egypt were unhappy that reforms weren't happening fast enough and the army took that as a cue to carry out a coup.

He's supporting the rebels in Syria. CIA just sent them more weapons. There is no talk or strategy of stabilising Syria, though this whole thing stinks of regime change. And who do you think will replace Assad if his regime is ousted?

They know by now you can't just replace what's their with western post reformation ideas about democracy. They know it doesn't work. So to me it still looks like he supports the Muslim brotherhood defacto.