Cost of Puppies

Knine

JustAThought wrote: »

When I went through the IKC & the breed club to try & source the dog I wanted I quickly found it was all sewnup. IKC recommended three breeders, two were partners , & a " second/third" -all knew each other for years & the prices were pretty much the same -between two & a half & three thousand euro. Unbelievable. Suffice to say I did my shopping elsewhere & got a beautiful pup, the breed I wanted, a prize winner now & fully papered & IKC registered.

Btw anyone can register as a breeder with the kennel club -it costs little enough to set it up with them.

It is very difficult to buy a specific breed dog in this country - pet shops can't sell, No one breeder or not is officially allowed advertise their dogs for sale at IKC events - & all lists & recommendations come from the breed club or the IKC secretary. It's no wonder so many thousands of people use the Internet & modern technologies to successfully source the dogs they want at the price & standards/conditions they expect.

I dislike immensely the claim that " people around here " don't like or use done deal or the implication everyone on it is a monster , puppy farmer, inhumane or a cheat. It is a legitimate site with rules & policies & one that is highly popular & successful & much used.

I despair of Private interest groups & breeders who it seems will never see the normal-ness of advertising or buying online, or shopping for the best fit for your needs. The Internet levels the playing field & takes the mystique & astronomical price expectations out if it.
Not everyone wants a state of the art elite breed standard dog that will pass the scrutiny of European dog experts in competition conditions to a list of highly technical criteria measured to the last milimiter of the dog.
People also just want a specific breed pet, and the Internet allows them to access this & shop around for the best, safest & fairest for their needs.

Just to clarify it costs a hell of a lot of money to produce decent quality dogs who are nice representatives of their breed. Define your idea of prize winner? It is not sewn up as such rather I have found that when potential new owners contact me, many want a dog right now or are not prepared to wait for a suitable puppy.

I am one of those so called club members & I work very hard trying to source puppies or rescues for people. However out of every 5/6 calls there may be only one or 2 people I would contemplate as being any way suitable to have a dog of these particular breeds. Yes us reputable people don't just sell our pets to the first buyer that flashes the cash.

I know lots and lots of reputable people who use Donedeal. The problem people are trying to convey on this forum is that for novice new owners it can be very difficult for them to sort out the cowboys from the decent breeders.

Another aspect you are overlooking is that lots of reputable breeders with good dogs have a waiting list. Again many people just decide they want a dog now & won't wait.

Yes I agree that people might not want a top show winner but I can tell you in my experience they do want a dog that resembles their chosen breed. One only has to look at certain websites & be appalled at what are being sold as pedigree dogs. Sure they may as well rescue a dog or get a crossbreed if they are willing to hand over money but don't care what the dog looks like.

Nody

Well seeing the discussion going on I think this is suitable article to add as it was published only yesterday.

Almost one in five puppies bought from online sellers die before they reach six months old.

The Kennel Club has discovered that half of the dogs show behavioural problems, while more than one in ten have serious health issues.

They are warning would-be owners to avoid retailers who use websites and social media as a front for cruel puppy farms. Welfare organisations say such breeders are interested only in profits, rather than the animals’ well-being.

Full article is here.

dharma200

I am wondering in regards to this issue would it be worthwhile having a thread purely for the awful adverts online for animals.... Much like the car thread which is great for people going in the likes of done deal,and not picking up on some of the signs in adds that something isn't right ( I am not in any way comparing a car to an animal but you see what I mean) .... Or is purpose this might actually give advertising to these breeders.... I just wouldn't buy a dog off done deal.. There are rescues there and dogs for free which is ok, but I honestly don't thing animals should be allowed to be up for sale on these sites... There should be some sort of regulation if you are selling an animal you must meet a certain criteria.. Not whip an add on done deal for three euro with no certs checks etc... The only way it seems to stop these cruel people is to never ever buy a dog online...... If every decent person stuck tot his then these people would find it harder and harder to operate their Nast cruel business.

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

Can you explain how that Lab breeder is reputable if they are breeding from dogs with bad hips?

Someone who has a pet may decide they want to show their dog or compete with it at various dog activities. They may decide to breed from it if it shows great talent. There are lots of reasons why they might prefer a registered dog.

I would consider someone not registering & microchipping their dogs to be a backyard breeder out to make money. The welfare of any of my breeding is paramount hence they can be identified by the microchip. You send your pups on their merry way & what happens if the new owner does not bother with having the dog chipped & it ends up in the pound or worse?

It would not be just my preference to run a mile. Anybody with any common sense would not pay money for such a dog. You might have morals about breeding but why do you think puppy farmers don't register their dogs?

Edited to add by health Certs I mean PRA results & HD scores, not a vet check up

My point is they are not a "reputable breeder" but you seem to be saying anyone that gives IKC papers with their pups and ensures they are chipped is a reputable breeder. My point is they are not. My point is also that the IKC Code Of Ethics you pointed to earlier is actually a dreadful example of breeding standards.

Yea, someone who has a pet may decide they want to show it. Hence I have given them the papers to register the dog if they wish to do so. You're still trying to stick to this point that the pups I sell are unregistered. They are not. I just give the new owner the choice of whether they wish to go to the extra cost of registration.

You say the new owner may not chip the dog. Well I explain to the owner the cost of their investment and that the dog needs its second inoculation and should be chipped when this happens. What if you send out a chipped dog and the owner doesn't register it with FIDO? The microchip you have paid for is useless anyway. Or the owner you sell to doesn't bother bringing it to get its second inoculation? You have to have some trust in the new owner. You are using conjecture about chipping which could just as much apply to a dog you sell.

To be honest, you are the one making outlandish comments here. You tried to make claims earlier about the IKC Code of Ethics, any decent breeder would see it is a terrible standard.

You also tried to say any dog without papers does not have a pedigree. Again, that is completely false. A dog not having papers does not change it's lineage.

You also tried to say that a litter have to be registered. As I said, dogs can be registered individually.

You say above that you have PRA and hip scores. A pup cannot have PRA results or hip scores so I presume you mean these for the parents. I also have these but I assure you you are one of few others like me if you do.

Let me tell you about my "IKC experience". I bought a dog two years ago. I rang the relevant club. The secretary of that breed club assured me she would come back to me. She never did.

I chased her twice and was given the number for people in Wexford. I rang the first number. The people wanted €600 for the pups yet they had no hip scores for the parents. Hip scores are vital for this breed (I will not put up the breed as it will allow people to identify the club).

I rang the secretary again and said this. I was told hip scores would be tough to get and the puppy would be at least €1000 with parents with them as they are expensive. She told me she would come back to me again and never did. She said I should expect to pay €500 to €600 without the health checks. I chased her again on a few occasions over a month period and contacted three or four suggested breeders but none had pups with parents with scores and all wanted extortionate amounts. In fact, over a month period and ringing four or five breeders the club did not provide me with one who had the health checks I would see as vitally necessary.

I then contacted a breeder I found on Gumtree who was selling pups with both parents hip scored for €400. No where near the €1000 the IKC club had advised, or the €500 to €600 I was told a pup without the health checks would be.

I now have a stunning example of the breed that I paid €400 for and which has both parents fully health checked. Something the IKC club did not offer.

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

Just to clarify it costs a hell of a lot of money to produce decent quality dogs who are nice representatives of their breed. Define your idea of prize winner? It is not sewn up as such rather I have found that when potential new owners contact me, many want a dog right now or are not prepared to wait for a suitable puppy.

I am one of those so called club members & I work very hard trying to source puppies or rescues for people. However out of every 5/6 calls there may be only one or 2 people I would contemplate as being any way suitable to have a dog of these particular breeds. Yes us reputable people don't just sell our pets to the first buyer that flashes the cash.

I know lots and lots of reputable people who use Donedeal. The problem people are trying to convey on this forum is that for novice new owners it can be very difficult for them to sort out the cowboys from the decent breeders.

Another aspect you are overlooking is that lots of reputable breeders with good dogs have a waiting list. Again many people just decide they want a dog now & won't wait.

Yes I agree that people might not want a top show winner but I can tell you in my experience they do want a dog that resembles their chosen breed. One only has to look at certain websites & be appalled at what are being sold as pedigree dogs. Sure they may as well rescue a dog or get a crossbreed if they are willing to hand over money but don't care what the dog looks like.

Yes and alot of these dogs are sold with IKC papers which is exactly my point. IKC papers do not mean people are getting a breed standard dog.

Perhaps if the IKC policed who they hand papers out to a bit more, or updated their code of ethics things mightn't be as bad.

Allowing a dog to have six litters between the ages of 1 and 8 is a terrible standard. A dog should not be having a litter practically every year.

liquoriceall

Just to say between my mother, sister & I we have 3 different breeds of dogs, 5 dogs in total, all came via done deal, all are healthy, we have never had any trouble with them. The oldest is 12 the youngest 3. Done deal is fine to get a pup if you are sensible and do your homework

Knine

I could be here all day answering your rant. Never have I said IKC means reputable.

The IKC code of ethics does give the dogs some level of protection. I do not know of any reputable breeders who breed their bitches 6/7 times. However there is NO protection at all for unregistered dogs.

You stated your dogs are sold IKC reg. They are not. As for microchipping, the dogs are registered to the breeder if the new owner does not change the chip. I vet all new owners and have never had a new owner not change a chip.

You are exactly the type of person I would advise people to avoid when buying a puppy.

A decent reputable breeder would never allow a puppy to leave their kennels without being microchipped. They register the whole litter. It is cost cutting on your side. Back yard breeding.

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

I could be here all day answering your rant. Never have I said IKC means reputable.

The IKC code of ethics does give the dogs some level of protection. I do not know of any reputable breeders who breed their bitches 6/7 times. However there is NO protection at all for unregistered dogs.

You stated your dogs are sold IKC reg. They are not. As for microchipping, the dogs are registered to the breeder if the new owner does not change the chip. I vet all new owners and have never had a new owner not change a chip.

You are exactly the type of person I would advise people to avoid when buying a puppy.

A decent reputable breeder would never allow a puppy to leave their kennels without being microchipped. They register the whole litter. It is cost cutting on your side. Back yard breeding.

The IKC Code of Ethics is as useless as the paper it is written on.

You seem to be ignoring where I am handing the cost saving onto the new owner? They have the CHOICE to register the pup and incur that cost if they wish to do so.

You have also chosen to ignore my IKC experience. Being sent to buy a pup for an extortionate price to several club recommended breeders who had no health checks.

You also choose to ignore how I have pointed out your outlandish comments which are untrue. You've made a number of claims, such as that a dog without papers does not have pedigree, which are totally untrue.

I, on the other hand, have stuck to fact.

Go ahead and label me with names. If that's the best you can do because you are losing a debate then work away.

Feel free to pm me for my address and come and see the facilities and my dogs. Just because someone doesn't follow the same procedure as yourself does not make them a backyard breeder.

Knine

Lemlin wrote: »

The IKC Code of Ethics is as useless as the paper it is written on.

You seem to be ignoring where I am handing the cost saving onto the new owner?

You have also chosen to ignore my IKC experience. Being sent to buy a pup for an extortionate price to several club recommended breeders who had no health checks.

You also choose to ignore how I have pointed out your outlandish comments which are untrue. You've made a number of claims, such as that a dog without papers does not have pedigree, which are totally untrue.

I, on the other hand, have stuck to fact.

Go ahead and label me with names. If that's the best you can do because you are losing a debate then work away.

Feel free to pm me for my address and come and see the facilities and my dogs.

I think you need to read over my posts again. What comments would they be?

You are passing the costs & the responsibility on to the new owners. No offence meant but registered ESS that are just pet quality are not worth a huge amount unless they are proven titled working parents or show dogs.

How many dogs not microchipped die in pounds do you reckon?

If a breeder has no health checks done, then buy elsewhere. They are certainly not reputable, even if they involved in a club.

Edited to add I never said a dog not registered does not have a pedigree. Read my posts. I said the pedigree means nothing & it could be made up.

DBB

Okay folks, I think you've made your points now. To stop this thread being derailed any further, I'll ask all posters to stick to the original topic from this point on.
If people want to discuss the ins and outs of kennel clubs, registration etc, feel free to start a new thread. But no more on this thread please.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
Thanks,
DBB

b_mac

dharma200 wrote: »

I am wondering in regards to this issue would it be worthwhile having a thread purely for the awful adverts online for animals.... Much like the car thread which is great for people going in the likes of done deal,and not picking up on some of the signs in adds that something isn't right ( I am not in any way comparing a car to an animal but you see what I mean) .... Or is purpose this might actually give advertising to these breeders.... I just wouldn't buy a dog off done deal.. There are rescues there and dogs for free which is ok, but I honestly don't thing animals should be allowed to be up for sale on these sites... There should be some sort of regulation if you are selling an animal you must meet a certain criteria.. Not whip an add on done deal for three euro with no certs checks etc... The only way it seems to stop these cruel people is to never ever buy a dog online...... If every decent person stuck tot his then these people would find it harder and harder to operate their Nast cruel business.

I'd have to agree here. Seen an ad on DD yesterday and the pups had tie wraps round their necks!!? If the pups were left for more than a few days... Well doesnt bare to think what would happen.

andreac

b_mac wrote: »

I'd have to agree here. Seen an ad on DD yesterday and the pups had tie wraps round their necks!!? If the pups were left for more than a few days... Well doesnt bare to think what would happen.

What do you mean by tie wraps? My puppies have colour coded Velcro collars on them which are checked everyday and made bigger as the pups are growing. So don't always think the worst when you see things like that. People who go to the trouble of doing things like that would not neglect the puppies like you think.

b_mac

andreac wrote: »

What do you mean by tie wraps? My puppies have colour coded Velcro collars on them which are checked everyday and made bigger as the pups are growing. So don't always think the worst when you see things like that. People who go to the trouble of doing things like that would not neglect the puppies like you think.

I mean a tie wrap you buy for DIY. Once you tie them, you need to cut them to remove the hold.

Knine

We put little colour coded collars on the pups so we can tell them apart, weigh them to make sure they are gaining. It also means no mistakes are made when microchipping or worming.

Can you imagine a litter of pups all the same colour and trying to tell them apart!

ShaShaBear

Knine wrote: »

We put little colour coded collars on the pups so we can tell them apart, weigh them to make sure they are gaining. It also means no mistakes are made when microchipping or worming.

Can you imagine a litter of pups all the same colour and trying to tell them apart!

I had this problem with two rats from the same litter, I can only imagine what it would be like with 8 or 9 puppies, especially since a fair few purebred puppies (from certain breeds) have very little distinguishable markings if they are the same colour, like a lab or spitz