First Aquarium - Disaster

FTA69

Hi folks, I have a few questions/observations and hopefully ye'll bear with me.

To cut a long story sort my girlfriend arrived home two weeks ago with her latest impulse buy - a 20L triangular tropical tank she bought from the independent pet shop around the corner. So we conditioned it for a week and I decided I liked the idea of getting a betta as I read that they are suited to small tanks and are hardy little fish. So because of his jaw, tenacious nature and colour I named him John Mullane and he appeared to be delighted in his little tank.

So while in the pet shop last week to buy John some silk plants she suddenly decides she wants more fish and your man suggests two guppies and a 3.5inch Chinese Loach to clean the algae etc. Now this fella chain smokes inside his own shop and is more often than not stoned off his tits; so generally not the most trustworthy-looking of individuals. Despite my protestations that the tank would be a bit small (I honestly haven't a f*cking clue about this lark to be honest, I never had a fish in my life) he insists they'll be perfectly fine and proceeds to talk to me like a patronising twat.

Within an hour of the new fish being added John Mullane has gone f*cking nuts. He can't catch the guppies but he sure as sh*t can catch the loach who sits on the botton; continually harassing the poor fish biting him all over resulting in the loach shooting in terror around this tiny tank clattering off the surfaces trying to get away. I've been watching this go on now for a few days and it can't be right surely? The guppies already have ragged tails and the loach is being perpetually attacked by the betta who is flaring around the tank like a youngfella at a teenage disco looking for a row and throwing shapes at everything else.

As I said, I know zip about fish but surely the betta should 1) be left on his tod and 2) a 20L tank is too small for anything else surely? However, all I'm getting off her is "your man in the shop said..." Am I wrong??

kylith

To be honest a 20L is too small for anything other than a few shrimp. I keep my betta in a 40L, and I think even that's only the bigger end of too small.

Generally you cannot keep ANY other fish with a betta, maybe some very dull coloured small fish like Corydoras catfish (need to be kept in minimum of 120L tank in a group of min. 6) in a tank where there's enough room for them to have their own space. Bettas will attack anything that looks remotely like another betta, anything that's in their territory, or anything they feel like attacking. If they're not attacking other fish they're generally having their fins eaten by them. The merest bit of reading on Bettas will tell you that they cannot be housed with other fish.

"Yer man in the shop" doesn't give two fecks about anything other than making money. If the fish die he won't care because you'll like as not come back to give him more money for new fish. There are precisely 2 shops in Dublin where I will buy fish, and only one whose advice I'd take.

Get rid of the new fish, either rehome them or bring them back to the shop. Do NOT buy any more fish. Your tank is full with 1 fish. It would be full if it were twice the size, tbh.

ETA: John Mullane is a great name for a betta. Maybe I'll call my next one Mullanimal!

kylith

Stick up a picture of the loach, if you can. I have a feeling that it's probably not a loach. Regardless, it has no place being in a 20L tank.

FTA69

I thought this myself to be honest. Unfortunately I had no idea I'd end up with an aquarium so I hadn't much reading done on this issue. I'm very much playing catch-up in that regard. I'm also a bit annoyed about the whole thing because I'm the one who has been left to do all the water changes/reading/testing etc because all I get out of her is "They're fish. They'll be grand. Your man said..." I wish she'd never got the f*cking thing now. Even if they're only fish they're still animals and they're clearly not doing the best.

FTA69

http://www.ekmpowershop27.com/ekmps/shops/buriramphur/weather-loach-10cm-859-p.asp

One of these lads I think. He's about 4 inches long and is a speckled yellow colour.

kylith

Jesus! Firstly weather loaches are cold water fish, happier in a mountain stream than in a tropical tank. Secondly they get up to 10" long (It's very bad fishkeeping to get a fish unless you know you can house it's adult size as plans to get a larger tank can fall by the wayside). They also prefer to be in groups.

I can't believe that she's being so laissez faire with the whole thing. They way I see it you can go three ways
1: rehome everything except the betta, see if you can get a 40L second hand, and have one proper tank
2: rehome everything including the betta. Claim that you came in and found everything dead so you flushed them down the loo. Bin tank and hope she doesn't come home with another one
3: Buy a large second hand tank of at least 150L (warning: expensive!) and have one cold water (guppys can handle ~20C which would also be good for your loach) and one tropical, for the betta. Accept that you are now one of us and start combing the swap shop for plants, driftwood, and decor.

FTA69

Look, I don't want to sound like a negligent arsehole either like, I was at home one evening watching the news and next thing this yoke was plonked up on the desk. I never even had a goldfish as a child. It came after a big argument where I refused to get a cat because we live in a small flat so this was the "compromise" apparently. I don't want to turn this into a Personal Issues thread but her attitude is really p*ssing me off; not only is she taking this lunatic in the shop's word as gospel, I'm apparently an insufferable know-all because I contradict what he says and am trying to hijack "her" tank. (I bought a book on Bettas) This has led her to just be p*ssed off with the thing now as it "has become a source of argument."

I'm actually quite attached to John Mullane at this stage (sad I know) but to be honest I just feel sick watching a load of obviously unhappy animals in a sh*t condition in my living room. I think this Saturday I'll bring the guppies and weather loach back and just keep him. I don't have the money, inclination or ability to keep a large tank and I know for a fact she'll only neglect it if we get one.

kylith

FTA69 wrote: »

Look, I don't want to sound like a negligent arsehole either like, I was at home one evening watching the news and next thing this yoke was plonked up on the desk. I never even had a goldfish as a child.

You certainly don't sound negligent at all; it sounds very much like you're trying to do the best for these fish.

It came after a big argument where I refused to get a cat because we live in a small flat so this was the "compromise" apparently.

Unfortunately a lot of people don't realise how big a responsibility fish are, and how much work it takes to look after a tank properly, they just have a dim memory of some goldfish in a bowl of water that you change once a week (I won't start into the goldfish lecture, don't worry!). Honestly, my dogs are probably less hassle than my fish. Sure I have to walk the dogs, but at least I don't have to worry about them running out of oxygen, or their food polluting their air, or any one of a million other little things that can wipe out a tank.

I don't want to turn this into a Personal Issues thread but her attitude is really p*ssing me off; not only is she taking this lunatic in the shop's word as gospel, I'm apparently an insufferable know-all because I contradict what he says and am trying to hijack "her" tank. (I bought a book on Bettas) This has led her to just be p*ssed off with the thing now as it "has become a source of argument."

My first reaction is that she thought she'd gotten something she wanted and when you started pointing out that it was unsuitable for the fish she's gotten angry at herself and she's taking it out on you.

I'm actually quite attached to John Mullane at this stage (sad I know)

Not sad. Not sad at all. Bettas have great personalities, and they really get to know the people who look after them. This is Crais, who dances when he sees me. I'll have to take another pic soon, his fins have gotten much bigger

but to be honest I just feel sick watching a load of obviously unhappy animals in a sh*t condition in my living room. I think this Saturday I'll bring the guppies and weather loach back and just keep him. I don't have the money, inclination or ability to keep a large tank and I know for a fact she'll only neglect it if we get one.

That sounds like a good plan. I'd say to talk to her about planning a larger tank if she wants more fish, but it might not go down too well. At the very least tell her that people who work in petshops don't necessarily know a lot about fish, just like someone who works in a food shop might not know the first thing about cooking.

FTA69

You're spot on there. Thanks for the advice.

FTA69

kylith wrote: »

Not sad. Not sad at all. Bettas have great personalities, and they really get to know the people who look after them. This is Crais, who dances when he sees me. I'll have to take another pic soon, his fins have gotten much bigger

He sounds nicer than my fish anyway. John Mullane simply stares for a while and then sullenly drifts up to the food hatch. When he first started attacking the poor weather loach he'd rush at him suddenly but the loach is wise to that now. Instead he gently floats down from above before chomping him on the back. He does this on a continual basis for hours.

I think he's a bit of a c*nt to be honest.

kylith

FTA69 wrote: »

He sounds nicer than my fish anyway. John Mullane simply stares for a while and then sullenly drifts up to the food hatch. When he first started attacking the poor weather loach he'd rush at him suddenly but the loach is wise to that now. Instead he gently floats down from above before chomping him on the back. He does this on a continual basis for hours.

I think he's a bit of a c*nt to be honest.

Give him time. Right now he's pissed off about all the other fish in his territory. Once he works out that you're where food comes from he'll get friendlier. He'll always be a c*nt to other fish though.

CruelCoin

kylith wrote: »

There are precisely 2 shops in Dublin where I will buy fish, and only one whose advice I'd take.

I will add to this and say:

I buy fish from Arthane aquatics and Seahorse aquariums.
I only take advice to heart from seahorse.

baron von something

absolutely agree with the rest of the lads about your tank size.u need to upgrade.i have a betta (lettuce) in a 55l planted tank along with a group of 6 white cloud minnows.3 of them disappeared recently and i''m fairly certain its all his fault.when i spent a fortune and got some orange sakura shrimp he chased them constantly until he killed them,and he bullys my assassin snails he just headbutts them until they move.i'm probably going to have him in a tank on his own

kylith

baron von something wrote: »

absolutely agree with the rest of the lads about your tank size.u need to upgrade.i have a betta (lettuce) in a 55l planted tank along with a group of 6 white cloud minnows.3 of them disappeared recently and i''m fairly certain its all his fault.when i spent a fortune and got some orange sakura shrimp he chased them constantly until he killed them,and he bullys my assassin snails he just headbutts them until they move.i'm probably going to have him in a tank on his own

I'd imagine that water temperature had something to do with the minnows' deaths. WCMMs are a cold water species, happiest at around 10-20C, while Betta's like it a couple of degrees hotter than is usual for tropical fish, around 28C. You'd be better off with neon or cardinal tetras, they do better in warm water and any other tetra species I've tried have shredded the betta's fins.

fguinan

CruelCoin wrote: »

I will add to this and say:

I buy fish from Arthane aquatics and Seahorse aquariums.
I only take advice to heart from seahorse.

Good to know!

kylith

CruelCoin wrote: »

I will add to this and say:

I buy fish from Arthane aquatics and Seahorse aquariums.
I only take advice to heart from seahorse.

I'll only take advice from Seahorse, but I'll buy from Pet Palace on Parnell St. It's not got a great selection, but I've always found their stock healthy.

CruelCoin

fguinan wrote: »

Good to know!

Practical fishkeeping magazine do reviews each month of different aquatic stores and rates them from stock, dry-goods, oddballs, etc.

Seahorse aquariums got the highest marks ever given in the british isles.

Arthane got a honourable mention with lots of 4 out of 5 stars.

I'm a regular customer of both.

Silverfish

I would trust advice from Seahorse to a certain extent, but I'd still go home and do some more research after they told me I could easily keep 6 goldfish in a 120l.
But you can pretty much bank on them sending you in the right direction on everything else. They're pretty much experts.

Sleepy

Depends on who you get tbh. Obviously Kealan is fantastic, let's face it, in all reality he's over-qualified to be in the retail end of the trade. Not sure of her name but there's a dark haired girl there who fed me a load of ****e one time.

I'd find Gavin in Artane quite good for advice too.

CruelCoin

Sleepy wrote: »

Depends on who you get tbh. Obviously Kealan is fantastic, let's face it, in all reality he's over-qualified to be in the retail end of the trade. Not sure of her name but there's a dark haired girl there who fed me a load of ****e one time.

I'd find Gavin in Artane quite good for advice too.

Gavin is good for advice alright. Main issue is he only seems to work a half week, and i always manage to come in him when he's at home.....

Kealan should be a professor/biologist somewhere definitely.

COYW

kylith wrote: »

I'll only take advice from Seahorse, but I'll buy from Pet Palace on Parnell St. It's not got a great selection, but I've always found their stock healthy.

I'm relatively new to aquariums, got great help starting from CruelCoin here but I have taken to it big time now. I have looked around and I only buy from and take advice from Seahorse. Artane is awkward for me, so I haven't been there.

I went into Pet Palace and I didn't like it. The whole store was very cramped. I witnessed one man buying fish there and the assistant didn't handle the fish with great care, to be honest.

I have two female platys, cherry and gold barbs, along with some amano shrimp in mine. All live together in peace, touch wood. They do need a good bit of care, water tests each week, water changes when the nitrate builds up, and cleaning the gravel and the glass is very time consuming but it is worth it when you see the tank at night in all it's glory.

kylith

COYW wrote: »

I went into Pet Palace and I didn't like it. The whole store was very cramped. I witnessed one man buying fish there and the assistant didn't handle the fish with great care, to be honest.

It's a small shop alright, and the handling of the fish depends on who is there. The reason I go there over other places is because, as I said, I find their stock healthy and because I have seen them ask people how big their tank is and tell them that the fish they're looking at isn't suitable. Having gotten the hard sell on things I knew to be unsuitable in other shops somewhere willing to lose a sale for the sake of the fish means a lot to me.

CruelCoin

COYW wrote: »

water changes when the nitrate builds up,

While that's the main reason for water changes, you should do them every week regardless of nitrate levels.

If you have plants, then this helps to replenish minerals in the water important for plant growth.
The same applies for your fish, regularly renewed water has a direct benefit on the health of your fish.

Also, glab to hear you're enjoying it! Post pics!

FTA69

Good news anyway, I took out the guppies and the weather loach and returned them to a different pet-shop; I decided to have no more dealings with the eejit who gave them to us in the first place. Apparently now she wants to get a gourami because your man said they get on well with bettas. I also know they grow massive. One betta is more than enough for 20L. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

kylith

Good call.

Bettas and gouramis are also closely related and will kill each other. I had a dwarf gourami, in a different tank to my betta, and he was such an asshole to everything else I had to rehome him. They're a lot more active than bettas too, most species get really big, and even the dwarf ones would need a minimum 100L tank.

FTA69

kylith wrote: »

Good call.

Bettas and gouramis are also closely related and will kill each other. I had a dwarf gourami, in a different tank to my betta, and he was such an asshole to everything else I had to rehome him. They're a lot more active than bettas too, most species get really big, and even the dwarf ones would need a minimum 100L tank.

If I'm going to keep fish I want to do it properly and maximise their lifespan and general well-being. A couple of other points/questions:

1) I do a 25% water change every week and make sure it's dechlorinated.
2) How often is it reasonable to change the filter pads? I was told once a month?
3) There seems to be a good bit of sediment/sh*t in the tank, when potting a plant in the gravel it kicked up. Is this ok? Does it need to be hoovered or cleaned?
4) Should I be conducting nitrate and ammonia tests?

COYW

FTA69 wrote: »

If I'm going to keep fish I want to do it properly and maximise their lifespan and general well-being. A couple of other points/questions:

1) I do a 25% water change every week and make sure it's dechlorinated.
2) How often is it reasonable to change the filter pads? I was told once a month?
3) There seems to be a good bit of sediment/sh*t in the tank, when potting a plant in the gravel it kicked up. Is this ok? Does it need to be hoovered or cleaned?
4) Should I be conducting nitrate and ammonia tests?

I test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate every week, minimum. That way I cover all the bases in the nitrogen cycle and I can see if a mini cycle happens in the tank. If the ammonia or nitrite rises above zero, you need to monitor it and do water changes more frequently.

On doing a water change, making sure to dechlorinate the new water, I use a hose to suck out sediment like the above from the gravel and I clean any sediment from the glass too.

On tank mates, have you thought about getting some shrimp? They will be ok with the betta.

FTA69

Do shrimp help in keeping the tank clean or are they just for aesthetics? I'll get a siphon hose for doing the water change in future so and hopefully that'll suck up some sediment.

Silverfish

Shrimp help with by eating any food the betta has missed, but my betta ate my shrimp or else badgered them to death.
You could try a few and see how they get on, but bear in mind they will be adding to your bioload.

RhubarbCrumble

kylith wrote: »

Good call.

Bettas and gouramis are also closely related and will kill each other. I had a dwarf gourami, in a different tank to my betta, and he was such an asshole to everything else I had to rehome him.

Gouramis can be narky as hell. I had one and he used to constantly chase/ headbutt/bully everyone else in the tank, my poor little quiet clown loach in particular. In the end I decided either he was going to have to go in a tank on his own or else he was going to have to return to the shop from which he came. It was a choice I didn't have to make however as I came downstairs one morning to find a very dead gourami at the bottom of the tank. I honestly reckon the rest of the tank got together and did a job on him!

OP, you don't sound negligent at all, quite the opposite in fact. Sounds like you're really trying to do your best with the little surprise that was sprung on you. :eek:

kylith

FTA69 wrote: »

If I'm going to keep fish I want to do it properly and maximise their lifespan and general well-being. A couple of other points/questions:

1) I do a 25% water change every week and make sure it's dechlorinated.
2) How often is it reasonable to change the filter pads? I was told once a month?
3) There seems to be a good bit of sediment/sh*t in the tank, when potting a plant in the gravel it kicked up. Is this ok? Does it need to be hoovered or cleaned?
4) Should I be conducting nitrate and ammonia tests?

1) 50% a week would be better
2) You don't need to change them, just rinse them in tank water when you're doing a water change. They contain bacteria that help convert toxic ammonia into something safe, if you change them you lose the bacteria and risk toxic levels of ammonia in the tank.
3) Get a syphon, it'll reach the gunk at the end of the tank. Use the gunk on your plants; it's made of fish poo and they'll love it.
4) It's a good idea to, levels can fluctuate wildly in small tanks. Get the test kit with the test tubes instead of the strips. The strips are unreliable.