Moving in to a friend who rented house from agency

sharky0922

Hey guys, Im looking for some advice.
So i wanted to move in to house with my friend, he rented a house from agency Winters Property Management. But in order to do that i have to get 2 reference letters. I wont get letter from my previous landlord(he wont admit he rented ), and company i used to work is gone, so im kinda stuck.
I know if you wanna rent it then you should get those but if you wanna live with guy who already paying 500+ for house and left 500+ euro deposit thats kinda ridiculous..
I only found this about it, in landlord right:

Decide whether to allow the tenant to sub-let or assign a tenancy (however if you refuse to allow a tenant to assign or sublet a tenancy this refusal can gives the tenant the right to terminate a fixed-term tenancy before its expiry date)

So i wait for answer from them and landlord. But whats my options here guys?
Do they even have right to this?
Im really stuck, i cant rent anything and i cant move in anywhere atm with those crazy laws they set up.
any help appreciated.

D3PO

don't confuse subletting with reassigning a lease which is what you are referring to in your post.

The agency do not have to allow permission for you to move in with your friend nor does your friend have a right to cancel his lease if they refuse.

I completely understand why they would want references and if you cannot provide any then I can understand why they may refuse to allow you move in.

Im not sure why you think its ridiculous you could be anybody and it would be ridiculous for them not to do due diligence on who is moving into their property.

Saying you cant rent anywhere is a bit melodramatic isn't it ? Not every landlord asks for references but those that do cannot be chastised for doing so.

sharky0922

i just want to live with him, thats it, dont want to reassign anything dont know where you get that from?

it is most dumbest thing i ever heard about it, if he rented a house hes responsible for it..and he decides to with who he wanna live. hes pay rent so dont know really whats their business ?
so if he wanted his girlfriend to move in with him he would have to thru such bull**** too? don't think so.

The agency do not have to allow permission for you to move in with your friend nor does your friend have a right to cancel his lease if they refuse.

did you read the quote i provided? you just saying exactly opposite thing without providing reason why. do you know any basis they could refuse to do so ? is based on any laws or another no casue no?

at this moment they just wont do it casue they dont..no reason. i called today again if they asked landlord..and look at that..they didn't bother to ask landlord they waiting for me to get those letters which i already told them i cant provide..
im gonna bet that if they refuse, and my friend will want it on PAPER reason why they wont provide it either..casue the real reason its not landlord.. but agency with their bull**** 2 letters excuse .

again my friend rented a house from the provided them with ALL paper work , even copies of payslips from work which i think its NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS...hes responsible for a house.
and they will still make a problem with somebody moving in there?

Saying you cant rent anywhere is a bit melodramatic isn't it ? Not every landlord asks for references but those that do cannot be chastised for doing so.

go ahead ask landlord for proof of address .. i wanna see how many of them will do that for you.

i rented i house 2-3 years ago from agency, not only i didn't had to provide any stupid letters, but could live with anybody i wanted .. nobody from agency was even trying to tell me what to do, they asked only one question : do you have money.

ABajaninCork

It's completely normal to provide proof of income when renting, whether through an agency or not. In order to prove income, that will mean PAYSLIPS!! The agency can and will also ask for bank statements. They might even run a credit check. (Normal in the UK, but not sure about Ireland).

They also want proof that you'll be a good tenant who will pay the rent on time and won't trash the place. That's why references are taken up. If you think providing payslips is none of the agent's business, that's fine. They won't rent to you. Simple as that.

BTW - Can you not ask a previous employer or a supervisor to provide a reference?

whippet

sharky0922 wrote: »

i rented i house 2-3 years ago from agency, not only i didn't had to provide any stupid letters, but could live with anybody i wanted .. nobody from agency was even trying to tell me what to do, they asked only one question : do you have money.

What age are you if you don't mind? From reading your posts you come across as quite young and naive.

I wouldn't dream of letting my property out to someone with out references from both previous land lords and employers.

The Landlord is quite within his rights to not allow someone else live in his property. While your friend is leasing the property he does not own it and must abide by the rules the lease.

sharky0922

ABajaninCork wrote: »

It's completely normal to provide proof of income when renting, whether through an agency or not. In order to prove income, that will mean PAYSLIPS!! The agency can and will also ask for bank statements. They might even run a credit check. (Normal in the UK, but not sure about Ireland).

They also want proof that you'll be a good tenant who will pay the rent on time and won't trash the place. That's why references are taken up. If you think providing payslips is none of the agent's business, that's fine. They won't rent to you. Simple as that.

BTW - Can you not ask a previous employer or a supervisor to provide a reference?

i had letter from previous employer but i lost it, and company went under
already tried to get it but there is no way, i got proposed some other guy to make me fake letters but they want 100 euro for it..

i completely disagree with their invasive ways to investigate you.. we have to agree about it casue govt. wont do anything but still if wanna rent something and they are not sure about it..they can demand deposit and 3/6 months in advance payment.
it wasn't like that before.. i tell you i rented house in agency before without any problems like that.
but i dont want to rent a house i just want to live in hous that is already rented to my friend whos paying bills!!! and went thru all that , SO WHATS THEIR PROBLEM?

ABajaninCork

sharky0922 wrote: »

i had letter from previous employer but i lost it, and company went under
already tried to get it but there is no way, i got proposed some other guy to make me fake letters but they want 100 euro for it..

Why do you feel the need to fake the letters? Have you rented previously?? I know the last landlord has refused you a reference (why?), but have you rented anywhere else that might be able to give you one?

sharky0922 wrote: »

i completely disagree with their invasive ways to investigate you.. we have to agree about it casue govt. wont do anything but still if wanna rent something and they are not sure about it..they can demand deposit and 3/6 months in advance payment.
it wasn't like that before.. i tell you i rented house in agency before without any problems like that.
but i dont want to rent a house i just want to live in hous that is already rented to my friend whos paying bills!!! and went thru all that , SO WHATS THEIR PROBLEM?

What are you talking about? it's ALWAYS been like that!! Put yourself in the landlord's shoes. If you had a house to rent, and someone like you came along with no proof of income and no references, but says they can pay the rent; would you rent to him? I certainly wouldn't. I would never take that risk. The landlord doesn't know you from a hole in the ground. So he has to take any and all action in order to mitigate his risk. That means checking references and making as sure as he can that you'll pay the rent and have the means to do so.

I really don't understand why you think this is a problem to you. And BTW - this is nothing to do with the State as you seem to think...

sharky0922

whippet wrote: »

What age are you if you don't mind? From reading your posts you come across as quite young and naive.

I wouldn't dream of letting my property out to someone with out references from both previous land lords and employers.

The Landlord is quite within his rights to not allow someone else live in his property. While your friend is leasing the property he does not own it and must abide by the rules the lease.

I dont mind but its none of your business like its not mine whats your age, nor its relevance to this discussion.
Dont know why you saying im naive? i know what people can do with houses..ive seen it. but there always way to secure yourself..like for example deposit? or.. bigger deposit?
and believe me.. you can get references for money these days saying your saint...and that wont help you too much, so youre pretty naive yourself that two pieces of paper will cover you

But if somebody ALREADY provided ALL documentations and he payed his deposit and his rent regularly then i think it should be enough and he can do on his rented property what he likes ..withing law of course ?

well read the quote casue its says clearly landlord of course can refused to let another person to be living in the house..but...

djimi

D3PO wrote: »

I completely understand why they would want references and if you cannot provide any then I can understand why they may refuse to allow you move in.

Im not sure why you think its ridiculous you could be anybody and it would be ridiculous for them not to do due diligence on who is moving into their property.

I suppose if this is a sublet situation then it could be argued that the new "tenants" references are somewhat irrelevant as the existing tenant is the one who is solely responsible for the tenancy. I guess its just a caution thing however, as its better to prevent any potential problems rather than try to figure out who is responsible afterwards.

djimi

sharky0922 wrote: »

But if somebody ALREADY provided ALL documentations and he payed his deposit and his rent regularly then i think it should be enough and he can do on his rented property what he likes ..withing law of course ?

It doesnt work like that. If the landlord doesnt want to sublet then they are quite within their rights to refuse, and if they do allow subletting they are entitled to decide to whom they will be subletting.

In this case they are entitled to exercise caution; €500 of a deposit is not going to go very far if your mate sublets to someone who parties 24/7, brings around gangs of unsavoury characters, and completely wrecks the place. Im not saying that you are like that of course, but without references its very hard for you to prove otherwise!

sharky0922

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Why do you feel the need to fake the letters? Have you rented previously?? I know the last landlord has refused you a reference (why?), but have you rented anywhere else that might be able to give you one?

did i said im gonna do it? dont twist my words, i said its possible to get it. i wont do it casue its stupid to pay 100 euro for some letters which i dont need in first place

i don't have those letters.. simple as that? and live in place where landlord don't pay taxes from renting ? and wont provide any proof on paper that somebody else than him is living there? you living in other world or something?

ABajaninCork wrote: »

what are you talking about? it's ALWAYS been like that!! Put yourself in the landlord's shoes. If you had a house to rent, and someone like you came along with no proof of income and no references, but says they can pay the rent; would you rent to him? I certainly wouldn't. I would never take that risk. The landlord doesn't know you from a hole in the ground. So he has to take any and all action in order to mitigate his risk. That means checking references and making as sure as he can that you'll pay the rent and have the means to do so.
.

no it wasnt, i rented a house without any reference for a year, just provided them with copy of my contract, not payslip. and that was it. payed 2 months of rent+ deposit.
sure that's their policy i don't mind, i'm not denying their right to secure themselves. BUT HOUSE IS ALREADY RENTED am i getting thru at all?

stop that offtopic people, unless you have any advice.
can landlords stop answering here? casue half of you didn't even bother to read first post to the end and you obviously have bias against tenants here.

djimi

Is it possible to get in touch with any of your former employers? The reference doesnt necessarily need to be on headed notepaper; if you can get a letter from a former boss with contact details then that would suffice.

djimi

sharky0922 wrote: »

no it wasnt, i rented a house without any reference for a year, just provided them with copy of my contract, not payslip. and that was it. payed 2 months of rent+ deposit.
sure that's their policy i don't mind, i'm not denying their right to secure themselves. BUT HOUSE IS ALREADY RENTED am i getting thru at all?

stop that offtopic people, unless you have any advice.
can landlords stop answering here? casue half of you didn't even bother to read first post to the end and you obviously have bias against tenants here.

The house is rented; to a tenant who has provided their references and has already been cleared by the landlord/agent. By asking the landlord to accept you into the property without reference then you are asking then to take a risk on allowing a person into their property without any evidence that they are reliable. Its not at all unreasonable that they will be wary about taking that risk. Its got nothing to do with having a bias against anyone; its just common sense.

sharky0922

djimi wrote: »

It doesnt work like that. If the landlord doesnt want to sublet then they are quite within their rights to refuse, and if they do allow subletting they are entitled to decide to whom they will be subletting.

In this case they are entitled to exercise caution; €500 of a deposit is not going to go very far if your mate sublets to someone who parties 24/7, brings around gangs of unsavoury characters, and completely wrecks the place. Im not saying that you are like that of course, but without references its very hard for you to prove otherwise!

sure they can( but i disagree with it completely), but at this moment from talks with agency they just dont want to ask landlord. second day im calling there and asking about it.

so if they refuse..they should be able to provide reason why on paper, without any problems and this will give me friend right to terminate. according to :
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html

Decide whether to allow the tenant to sub-let or assign a tenancy (however if you refuse to allow a tenant to assign or sublet a tenancy this refusal can gives the tenant the right to terminate a fixed-term tenancy before its expiry date)

djimi

Your friend should have the contact details of the landlord (legally they are supposed to be supplied them); get him to contact the landlord directly and ask the question if the agency wont contact them.

sharky0922

djimi wrote: »

Is it possible to get in touch with any of your former employers? The reference doesnt necessarily need to be on headed notepaper; if you can get a letter from a former boss with contact details then that would suffice.

thats the problem, i would get it in a sec if its possible, but they want from LAST company i worked for, and they went under.
and since i worked until now i didn't needed house with proof of address..so landlords don't come into play..its vicious circle that is impossible to brake out
i cant rent a house..casue i don't have reference and i cant get reference without even renting a room in "agency house". kinda funny too

Your friend should have the contact details of the landlord (legally they are supposed to be supplied them); get him to contact the landlord directly and ask the question if the agency wont contact them.

thanks , i ask him.

djimi

sharky0922 wrote: »

thats the problem, i would get it in a sec if its possible, but they want from LAST company i worked for, and they went under.

Have you any way of contacting your last boss? They only need a reference; it doesnt necessarily have to be from a current company! None of my previous bosses work for the company any longer but all would be glad to take a phone call for reference purposes still if necessary.

whippet

sharky0922 wrote: »

so if they refuse..they should be able to provide reason why on paper, without any problems and this will give me friend right to terminate. according to :
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html

a little information is dangerous. This is nothing to do with assigning a lease or subletting, this is about having a third party living in the property under the existing lease - what you are quoting is totally irrelevant.

While you are p1ssed off, this isn't the fault of the landlord, they state or 'the man' ... before granting you permission to live in his house, the landlord wants to satisfy himself that you are not an obvious risk.

The only way he can do this is via references. Can you get a reference from your current employer? As a landlord I'd prefer to see a reference from a current employer to an old employer.

Thoie

sharky0922 wrote: »

sure they can( but i disagree with it completely), but at this moment from talks with agency they just dont want to ask landlord. second day im calling there and asking about it.

so if they refuse..they should be able to provide reason why on paper, without any problems and this will give me friend right to terminate. according to :
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html

It's badly written. "however if you refuse to allow a tenant to assign or sublet a tenancy this refusal can gives the tenant the right to terminate a fixed-term tenancy before its expiry date"

A refusal to allow the tenant to assign or sublet doesn't automatically give him the right to terminate. It's usually used in cases where someone has signed up to a fixed term tenancy (e.g. 12 months), and wants to move out after 8. Usually, if the existing tenant can find someone to take his place (assigning = where someone else takes over the tenancy, and pays the money to the landlord, subletting = where someone else moves in, pays the existing tenant, and the tenant pays the landlord).

Reasonable grounds for refusing an assignment or sublet would include cases where the new person moving in doesn't meet the landlord's requirements - for example not being able to provide references or proof of employment. If the tenant has gone to the trouble of finding someone with excellent references, but the landlord just says "Nah, I don't like her shoes", then that may be grounds for the existing tenant to terminate the tenancy before its expiry date.

From the rest of the page you linked, you'll notice that a landlord may not refuse to let someone live there on the grounds of gender, civil status, family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, disability, race or membership of the Travelling Community.

He may refuse to let someone live there on the grounds of not having references, or payslips. The landlord has hired an agency to take care of the logistics for him. One of the things he's hired them for is to get references/employment details. It is neither his fault nor the agencies that you previously rented from a dodgier landlord, nor that your previous employer no longer exists.

Your best bet is to talk nicely to the agency, explain the situation about previous dodgy landlord and employer, and ask if there are any other references that they would find suitable, and if an increased deposit might help in this situation.

sharky0922

Have you any way of contacting your last boss? They only need a reference; it doesnt necessarily have to be from a current company! None of my previous bosses work for the company any longer but all would be glad to take a phone call for reference purposes still if necessary.

his phone is dead, and dont know where is living. never bother to ask.
offices are closed.

whippet wrote: »

a little information is dangerous. This is nothing to do with assigning a lease or subletting, this is about having a third party living in the property under the existing lease - what you are quoting is totally irrelevant.

While you are p1ssed off, this isn't the fault of the landlord, they state or 'the man' ... before granting you permission to live in his house, the landlord wants to satisfy himself that you are not an obvious risk.

The only way he can do this is via references. Can you get a reference from your current employer? As a landlord I'd prefer to see a reference from a current employer to an old employer.

thats why i asked about is there anything else about it, i could do.
Im not working at the moment , casue company went under, you would know that if you read my posts..

im not pissed of, im just surprised about amount nonsense paperwork you have to provide these days.

way treat person who already paying 500+ (wont tell you how much exactly) to them, and instead of wanting to keep that good tenant, and help him they wont allow anybody else to live with him thus... making him less likely to prolong his lease.. right.. 0 euro monthly is much better.
sure lets assume everybody are destroying house criminals right away..

and one more thing i love how landlords/agencies thinking that people who rented house and left his deposit and reputations at stake here would allow to house be damaged or destroyed..and wont care who he will be living with and in what conditions?

sharky0922

Thoie wrote: »

[.....]
Your best bet is to talk nicely to the agency, explain the situation about previous dodgy landlord and employer, and ask if there are any other references that they would find suitable, and if an increased deposit might help in this situation.

thanks for your opinion.
well i'm doing that at the moment, i just asked them nothing else, left forms and waiting.
i was thinking about deposit too , but gonna wait until they hear from landlord.

djimi

sharky0922 wrote: »

way treat person who already paying 500+ (wont tell you how much exactly) to them, and instead of wanting to keep that good tenant, and help him they wont allow anybody else to live with him thus... making him less likely to prolong his lease.. right.. 0 euro monthly is much better.
sure lets assume everybody are destroying house criminals right away..

and one more thing i love how landlords/agencies thinking that people who rented house and left his deposit and reputations at stake here would allow to house be damaged or destroyed..and wont care who he will be living with and in what conditions?

Youre not being rational about this. The landlord must assume the worst; the tenancy laws are stacked in favour of the tenant, and the landlord must do what it takes to protect themselves. Its not unreasonable to ask for a reference from anyone who is going to be living in the property, and its not unreasonable for them to refuse anyone who cannot provide said reference. Its tough for someone in your position, but thats the way that it is, and it is the way that it is likely to remain for the foreseeable. Its a lot of money at stake for the landlord if it goes wrong.

And Im not a landlord, before you say it!

sharky0922

djimi wrote: »

Youre not being rational about this. The landlord must assume the worst; the tenancy laws are stacked in favour of the tenant, and the landlord must do what it takes to protect themselves. Its not unreasonable to ask for a reference from anyone who is going to be living in the property, and its not unreasonable for them to refuse anyone who cannot provide said reference. Its tough for someone in your position, but thats the way that it is, and it is the way that it is likely to remain for the foreseeable. Its a lot of money at stake for the landlord if it goes wrong.

And Im not a landlord, before you say it!

and you think my friend don't know that? he would get another random person to the house ? whats 500+ euro deposit right? lets destroy house..that we have to live in for at least another 4 months, then we move to another..surely we will be able to get references from landlord after destroying this house? oh wait..
please.. this logic fails.
of course they need to protect themselves, and they already did in this case..there is main tenant who provided all they wanted and he just want live with somebody else so he wouldn't have to pay everything alone
nobody denying their right to do it, but the way they doing is pretty much naive.. casue letters wont help you much.. they just give you false sense of security. you wanna secure yourself, take deposit.
of course you're right this is how it is, and it will stay like that..like you said.

ABajaninCork

sharky0922 wrote: »

did i said im gonna do it? dont twist my words, i said its possible to get it. i wont do it casue its stupid to pay 100 euro for some letters which i dont need in first place

i don't have those letters.. simple as that? and live in place where landlord don't pay taxes from renting ? and wont provide any proof on paper that somebody else than him is living there? you living in other world or something?


no it wasnt, i rented a house without any reference for a year, just provided them with copy of my contract, not payslip. and that was it. payed 2 months of rent+ deposit.
sure that's their policy i don't mind, i'm not denying their right to secure themselves. BUT HOUSE IS ALREADY RENTED am i getting thru at all?

stop that offtopic people, unless you have any advice.
can landlords stop answering here? casue half of you didn't even bother to read first post to the end and you obviously have bias against tenants here.

No need to be so rude. You asked for opinions on a public forum. I gave mine. I'm sorry if I'm not telling you what you want to hear.

sharky0922

ABajaninCork wrote: »

No need to be so rude. You asked for opinions on a public forum. I gave mine. I'm sorry if I'm not telling you what you want to hear.

i was just correcting you casue you said something untrue, don't see where is that rudeness..
just dont twist somebody else words.

djimi

sharky0922 wrote: »

i was just correcting you casue you said something untrue, don't see where is that rudeness..
just dont twist somebody else words.

You have been extremely rude in this thread to those who have responded.

sharky0922

djimi wrote: »

You have been extremely rude in this thread to those who have responded.

where exactly? casue i don't see it myself?

djimi

sharky0922 wrote: »

and you think my friend don't know that? he would get another random person to the house ? whats 500+ euro deposit right? lets destroy house..that we have to live in for at least another 4 months, then we move to another..surely we will be able to get references from landlord after destroying this house? oh wait..
please.. this logic fails.
of course they need to protect themselves, and they already did in this case..there is main tenant who provided all they wanted and he just want live with somebody else so he wouldn't have to pay everything alone
nobody denying their right to do it, but the way they doing is pretty much naive.. casue letters wont help you much.. they just give you false sense of security. you wanna secure yourself, take deposit.
of course you're right this is how it is, and it will stay like that..like you said.

The deposit means very little in reality; if you move in and wreck the place you could both bail and €500 wont go far in fixing the problems you leave behind. The references also might not mean a lot but at least they are worth something; better than nothing.

ABajaninCork

sharky0922 wrote: »

i was just correcting you casue you said something untrue, don't see where is that rudeness..
just dont twist somebody else words.

I didn't say anything that was untrue. Don't twist MY words. And yes -you are very rude to people who are trying to advise you. It is frustrating for you, I know, but there's no need for it.

sharky0922

heres what i said:

i got proposed some other guy to make me fake letters but they want 100 euro for it..

heres what you said

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Why do you feel the need to fake the letters?

do you see the difference? i didn't said i have need to take those letters i just i got proposed them to me. so what you said was UNTRUE. you just twisted it.

now what was so rude about my answers casue again i don't see it? where are those insults? and name calling? or whatever you see there.
please quote me, casue its because i disagree with you doesnt mean its rude.

ABajaninCork

Where exactly did I say you were name-calling? Please tell me as I don't see any here. But your responses (am I living in another world for example) are extremely rude. It might not look it to you, but I certainly think so. And I'm not the only one to have told you that.

Now - I'm bowing out of this thread, as I'm hungry and we're going round in circles. I wish you luck with finding somewhere to live that will accept you without proof of income and no references.